EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 453
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4141 Posts
I feel if you scout a 2 gate goon early going for a proxy fac with speed vults would work well? Could go dropship as well but abit more risky if toss catches your dropship. Don't really think going a quick 3rd would work because if toss does any aggressive strat it's hard to block. Thoughts? | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
fleet beacon cost at 300/200 is big investment already, and carrier really big slow investment though it has potential to be threatening quickly. Also 100/100 upgrade for 8 interceptors.. I think early starport dropship is strong as a mix up. I'm not sure but maybe you just win if you drop early 2 tanks or 4 vult or 2vult 1 tank (+ maybe lift more..) vs carriers before obs after 2 gate goon, at least potential for serious advantage i think?? | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On July 29 2020 01:33 Dante08 wrote: What is the best way in TvP to punish a toss that goes 2 gate goon into carriers before robo? I defended my nat with 3 siege tanks losing almost nothing and went speed vult but he used goons to block my nat. I managed to get the vults out but didn't do much damage. I read something was wrong and went for a 4 fac push but the carriers were so quick I ended up losing the game. I feel if you scout a 2 gate goon early going for a proxy fac with speed vults would work well? Could go dropship as well but abit more risky if toss catches your dropship. Don't really think going a quick 3rd would work because if toss does any aggressive strat it's hard to block. Thoughts? The proxy fac might work well but not all protoss will do what the one you mentioned did. A lot of them might send their goons back to defend drop or proxy fac. Vulture drop with mines is still a very effective response because the protoss has almost no answer for the mines. Otherwise, if you somehow confirm very quickly that protoss is going carrier, taking a third is fine because they can't really contest it very well due to low dragoon count. If you don't want to go for drop style and you only know that protoss is delaying taking a third for a long amount of time, then go for 5 fac push as it is good against 2 base carrier and 2 base arbiter. Bring around 3-4 SCVs with you if you have no goliaths because you will need them to put up turrets. Sometimes you can get a good scan to know whether they're doing 2 base arbiter or carrier but not always. If you couldn't find the tech, keep in mind usually 2 base arbiter is done after a dt rush or dt drop. a better terran may be able to say something more informed but I'm guessing if P didn't make dt, it's a lot more likely they are going for mass gateway or carrier instead, which are not difficult to distinguish. 5 fac is also good against mass gateway as it helps you defend and you can slowly take a third. A 5 fac push is bad if protoss is going mass gateway and shuttle off 2 base though because their army is stronger so you should be playing defensively. Take my advice with grain of salt as my mmr is like 1600s with Terran lol. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4141 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
From my perspective, dropship play is probably the best option followed by a strong timing push with 5/6 fac. Dropship play should force his goons back so you can lay mines close to his base, so you can push his main faster later on. You can also do a fast 4 Fac push (cut SCVs) and bring like 4 SCVs to build a turret forest at his natural while you start to build some goliaths. Drawback is, you don't know what he is doing beforehand. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On July 29 2020 18:47 Cryoc wrote: Sorry, but 5 Fac is terrible vs 2 base arbiter, unless you have a huge economic advantage from the early game. Why do you think almost every Protoss goes 2 base arbiter, when they don't see a fast 3rd from Terran? From my perspective, dropship play is probably the best option followed by a strong timing push with 5/6 fac. Dropship play should force his goons back so you can lay mines close to his base, so you can push his main faster later on. You can also do a fast 4 Fac push (cut SCVs) and bring like 4 SCVs to build a turret forest at his natural while you start to build some goliaths. Drawback is, you don't know what he is doing beforehand. that would go long way to explain why i always lose to 2 base arbiter. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
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TT1
Canada10033 Posts
On August 01 2020 14:22 XenOsky wrote: comfortable key for zealots instead of Z? depends on your layout (gate hotkey in early game etc.). everyones posture is different, what works for me might not work for you that said, i have zeal on S (goons on D, SDSDSDSD) | ||
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Counc1l
33 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Also, I'm pretty sure my main problem is bad storms and losing my zealots too quickly. I am wondering if I should put the dragoons in the earlier hotkey groups to deal with this problem and I would like some other general micro advice on how to execute the push as well. | ||
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Jealous
10310 Posts
On August 02 2020 22:03 Anc13nt wrote: Anyone have advice on how to execute the 8 gate PvZ push? I feel like my macro is fine but I'd like to know the perfect composition. I start making mostly dragoons after roughly 100 supply. I know you're supposed to push out with +2 weapons but I'm not sure what the actual proper time to do so on the timer; I could be getting weapon upgrades too late. Usually I push out at around 12 minutes. Also, I'm pretty sure my main problem is bad storms and losing my zealots too quickly. I am wondering if I should put the dragoons in the earlier hotkey groups to deal with this problem and I would like some other general micro advice on how to execute the push as well. I think it depends on what Zerg is doing, there is no one holy composition that will make 8 Gate successful in every scenario. For example when I was learning this build, it was to counter a Zerg that liked to do 4 base turtle, so I made a lot of Dragoons after the initial Zealots to bust their Sunks/Lurkers and then I rallied almost pure Zealot to continue the bust and deal with any flanking army. However, I doubt this is the optimal composition against more modern playstyles. Therefore, it is important to know what you are trying to achieve with 8 Gate and in what scenario. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
edit: and make the static defense in a main so they have to go up ramp or shuttle in units. | ||
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Jealous
10310 Posts
On August 06 2020 01:22 Anc13nt wrote: in ultra late game PvZ where protoss gives up all their bases except a main and natural I feel like it's almost impossible for zerg to break the dark archon, reaver, ht, archon, reaver, cannon defense but couldn't you just make a massive field of static defense and kill all your defilers and guardians so they can't break the static defense? I know protoss has d-web but if you make enough static defense they might not have enough corsairs to d-web all your static defense. That would be a tie right?. edit: and make the static defense in a main so they have to go up ramp or shuttle in units. In theory 1 Dragoon, 1 Corsair, and 1 Scout/Arbiter should be able to take down an infinite amount of static D. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 06 2020 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: What's the Dragoon for? to shoot down the d-web sunken but that is why I mentioned putting the static defense in the main base. The goon will probably glitch around the ramp and it is really easy to mess up and lose the dragoon. Also, if the sunken line is deep enough, it's really easy to mess up when microing and sometimes 1 d-web is not enough to protect the dragoon. We know how hard it is to keep goons from getting into a bunker's line of fire in PvT and bunker only has 5 range. edit: Also the static defense protects queens from feedback so spawn broodling is a threat if the dragoon is attacking from the ramp (because then dark archon might be too far away to protect it). | ||
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Jealous
10310 Posts
On August 07 2020 00:20 Anc13nt wrote: to shoot down the d-web sunken but that is why I mentioned putting the static defense in the main base. The goon will probably glitch around the ramp and it is really easy to mess up and lose the dragoon. Also, if the sunken line is deep enough, it's really easy to mess up when microing and sometimes 1 d-web is not enough to protect the dragoon. We know how hard it is to keep goons from getting into a bunker's line of fire in PvT and bunker only has 5 range. edit: Also the static defense protects queens from feedback so spawn broodling is a threat if the dragoon is attacking from the ramp (because then dark archon might be too far away to protect it). First of all, one DWeb can cover like 6 tightly-packed Sunkens if it needs to; otherwise, it just needs to cover the forward-most. There will always be an angle of attack that exposes the Dragoon to only a handful of Sunkens at a time. Second of all, a Corsair can cast two DWebs if it is has energy upgrade. Third of all, you were talking about Static Defense, not Queens and etc. If you're going to add variables like that, I can say that Protoss has 12 Corsair and can cover the whole Zerg main in cloned DWebs and kill any Queens that the Zerg has, or that Protoss has Hallucination and can overwhelm/confuse Zerg static Defense AND force Queens to make risky casts. By moving goalposts, this becomes a pointless rabbithole. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On August 07 2020 01:18 Jealous wrote: First of all, one DWeb can cover like 6 tightly-packed Sunkens if it needs to; otherwise, it just needs to cover the forward-most. There will always be an angle of attack that exposes the Dragoon to only a handful of Sunkens at a time. Second of all, a Corsair can cast two DWebs if it is has energy upgrade. Third of all, you were talking about Static Defense, not Queens and etc. If you're going to add variables like that, I can say that Protoss has 12 Corsair and can cover the whole Zerg main in cloned DWebs and kill any Queens that the Zerg has, or that Protoss has Hallucination and can overwhelm/confuse Zerg static Defense AND force Queens to make risky casts. By moving goalposts, this becomes a pointless rabbithole. The point of mentioning mass static defense as a way of beat a ultra late game turtling protoss is that a realistic scenario is assumed. On FS, that would look something like protoss mined out 5 base (and maybe partially mined a 6th before losing it) while zerg has rest of the map. In my experience, protoss cannot afford close to 12 sairs with d-web without being too lacking in scarab/ht/dark archon. On the other hand zerg is usually maxed and floating thousands of resources so the zerg can hide an army behind their static defense without fearing dark archon mind control or storm. Of course, an ultra late game scenario has many variables so it is probably too complicated to theory craft about. Despite that, I thought it was worthwhile suggestion that the zerg plays the role of turting player and the protoss is the offensive player because usually when positions are reversed, protoss wins. There was a game where Scarlett barely won against a zerg turtling. Granted she didn't have d web (but developing all that tech costs 650/500 including the sair). But then again the zerg was so broke they couldn't afford much static defense at all so she could go in and pick off units with dark archon + ht with shuttle. If the zerg tried to attack Scarlett, it wouldn't have been close but at least by turtling, the game remained in contention for a long amount of time. She lost a lot of dark archons to high ground sunkens and nearly lost her game-winning scout due to mismicro (she is 2100s level in Korea too so I think this could happen to anyone at or below that level). | ||
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