|
On July 14 2020 04:47 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2020 04:36 TT1 wrote:On July 14 2020 01:57 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 12 2020 07:54 TT1 wrote:On July 11 2020 12:06 Chameleon wrote:
In PvZ, does a gateway first opening (gate at nat) just auto-lose to a 5 pool? any notable reps of someone holding it off? 1g "should" be a free win vs 5p, especially if u opened with 9 gate instead of 10. That said, like with most things in BW it comes down to execution (proper production/micro). If you last scout Z and your zeal gets caught midd map because you sent it out before getting any scouting info, you probably lose tho. Assuming both players do what they're supposed to, P just needs to pull about half his workers to his nat and build a battery at his wall (or a bit behind your wall so you have more surface area for your zeal/probe micro). From there it's just a micro fight vs speedless lings, the most important part for P is not missing any worker/zealot production. Don't focus too much on your scouting probe, afk it at their nat and try to deny their hatch as long as you can (or pylon block), focus on your zeal micro. Build up your zeal/worker count, counter pressure Z to force more lings and take ur expo behind it (you can also throw down your gas and go into core/stargate before exping, gotta be careful vs lings if you do this cus you're skipping forge). thanks for specifying. gateway first is a 9gate build! if you don't make the gate on 9 you might as well make a forge why? bisu always goes 10g bisu also has 6 gates off of 3 bases compared to the 8-12 of us plebs
10g gives u more eco compared to 9g, there's less probe cutting. 9g is good vs 11 hatch or 12 hatch because u can get to their mine line earlier, 10g is better than 9g vs overpool. Both b.os have merit, it's more of a stylistic thing.
Also, the point of going gate first is having map control vs Z, that's the difference between gate first (10 or 9) vs forge.
|
On July 16 2020 09:12 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2020 04:47 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 14 2020 04:36 TT1 wrote:On July 14 2020 01:57 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 12 2020 07:54 TT1 wrote:On July 11 2020 12:06 Chameleon wrote:
In PvZ, does a gateway first opening (gate at nat) just auto-lose to a 5 pool? any notable reps of someone holding it off? 1g "should" be a free win vs 5p, especially if u opened with 9 gate instead of 10. That said, like with most things in BW it comes down to execution (proper production/micro). If you last scout Z and your zeal gets caught midd map because you sent it out before getting any scouting info, you probably lose tho. Assuming both players do what they're supposed to, P just needs to pull about half his workers to his nat and build a battery at his wall (or a bit behind your wall so you have more surface area for your zeal/probe micro). From there it's just a micro fight vs speedless lings, the most important part for P is not missing any worker/zealot production. Don't focus too much on your scouting probe, afk it at their nat and try to deny their hatch as long as you can (or pylon block), focus on your zeal micro. Build up your zeal/worker count, counter pressure Z to force more lings and take ur expo behind it (you can also throw down your gas and go into core/stargate before exping, gotta be careful vs lings if you do this cus you're skipping forge). thanks for specifying. gateway first is a 9gate build! if you don't make the gate on 9 you might as well make a forge why? bisu always goes 10g bisu also has 6 gates off of 3 bases compared to the 8-12 of us plebs 10g gives u more eco compared to 9g, there's less probe cutting. 9g is good vs 11 hatch or 12 hatch because u can get to their mine line earlier, 10g is better than 9g vs overpool. Both b.os have merit, it's more of a stylistic thing. Also, the point of going gate first is having map control vs Z, that's the difference between gate first (10 or 9) vs forge.
i guess i need to try 10g. every zerg i face when i open gate first is doing some 9 pool sling. i guess they have wounds. i was uncomfortable with gate first openers before i figured out how to play it against 9pool. i don't love the build order matchup, but maybe going 10g instead of 9g will help a bit. thanks dood.
|
On July 16 2020 09:12 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2020 04:47 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 14 2020 04:36 TT1 wrote:On July 14 2020 01:57 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 12 2020 07:54 TT1 wrote:On July 11 2020 12:06 Chameleon wrote:
In PvZ, does a gateway first opening (gate at nat) just auto-lose to a 5 pool? any notable reps of someone holding it off? 1g "should" be a free win vs 5p, especially if u opened with 9 gate instead of 10. That said, like with most things in BW it comes down to execution (proper production/micro). If you last scout Z and your zeal gets caught midd map because you sent it out before getting any scouting info, you probably lose tho. Assuming both players do what they're supposed to, P just needs to pull about half his workers to his nat and build a battery at his wall (or a bit behind your wall so you have more surface area for your zeal/probe micro). From there it's just a micro fight vs speedless lings, the most important part for P is not missing any worker/zealot production. Don't focus too much on your scouting probe, afk it at their nat and try to deny their hatch as long as you can (or pylon block), focus on your zeal micro. Build up your zeal/worker count, counter pressure Z to force more lings and take ur expo behind it (you can also throw down your gas and go into core/stargate before exping, gotta be careful vs lings if you do this cus you're skipping forge). thanks for specifying. gateway first is a 9gate build! if you don't make the gate on 9 you might as well make a forge why? bisu always goes 10g bisu also has 6 gates off of 3 bases compared to the 8-12 of us plebs 10g gives u more eco compared to 9g, there's less probe cutting. 9g is good vs 11 hatch or 12 hatch because u can get to their mine line earlier, 10g is better than 9g vs overpool. Both b.os have merit, it's more of a stylistic thing. Also, the point of going gate first is having map control vs Z, that's the difference between gate first (10 or 9) vs forge.
Im not sure I fully understand why 10g is better vs overpool. Is it cause you "aint supposed to" attack with the first zeals vs overpool and since its better economically its better vs overpool but as safe? Id love to hear an elaboration on this
|
Norway28917 Posts
Yes. 9 gate doesn't do any damage against overpool (at least with the first zealot), it just forces out lings. 10g does the same thing. vs hatch first 9g can actually kill drones or at the very least force drone pulls and delay mining, whereas 10g doesn't always accomplish even that.
|
On July 17 2020 04:43 Return wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2020 09:12 TT1 wrote:On July 14 2020 04:47 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 14 2020 04:36 TT1 wrote:On July 14 2020 01:57 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 12 2020 07:54 TT1 wrote:On July 11 2020 12:06 Chameleon wrote:
In PvZ, does a gateway first opening (gate at nat) just auto-lose to a 5 pool? any notable reps of someone holding it off? 1g "should" be a free win vs 5p, especially if u opened with 9 gate instead of 10. That said, like with most things in BW it comes down to execution (proper production/micro). If you last scout Z and your zeal gets caught midd map because you sent it out before getting any scouting info, you probably lose tho. Assuming both players do what they're supposed to, P just needs to pull about half his workers to his nat and build a battery at his wall (or a bit behind your wall so you have more surface area for your zeal/probe micro). From there it's just a micro fight vs speedless lings, the most important part for P is not missing any worker/zealot production. Don't focus too much on your scouting probe, afk it at their nat and try to deny their hatch as long as you can (or pylon block), focus on your zeal micro. Build up your zeal/worker count, counter pressure Z to force more lings and take ur expo behind it (you can also throw down your gas and go into core/stargate before exping, gotta be careful vs lings if you do this cus you're skipping forge). thanks for specifying. gateway first is a 9gate build! if you don't make the gate on 9 you might as well make a forge why? bisu always goes 10g bisu also has 6 gates off of 3 bases compared to the 8-12 of us plebs 10g gives u more eco compared to 9g, there's less probe cutting. 9g is good vs 11 hatch or 12 hatch because u can get to their mine line earlier, 10g is better than 9g vs overpool. Both b.os have merit, it's more of a stylistic thing. Also, the point of going gate first is having map control vs Z, that's the difference between gate first (10 or 9) vs forge. Im not sure I fully understand why 10g is better vs overpool. Is it cause you "aint supposed to" attack with the first zeals vs overpool and since its better economically its better vs overpool but as safe? Id love to hear an elaboration on this
In theory a good Z shouldn't take damage from any type of gate first when opening overpool, lings should deny drone kills and zeals from going behind min patches (at the very least behind your main base min patches). Ultimately it's a micro war and it comes down to whether or not Z over-drones, but my point is they have the tools to not take any direct eco damage (drone kills) from P's first 1 to 2 zeals.
Also, a good Z who sees P being aggro off of 1g (10 or 9 gate) vs ovp will sneak 2 lings into P's main, they'll keep those 2 lings alive until speed kicks in, that's when you're in trouble. This can lead to disorganized play on P's end which could turn into a full on speedling allin from Z. Obviously this isn't easy to do tho but it's the best way to punish gate first (and hence why you should play defensive vs a high lvl Z). If you're going to play defensive with your zeals the eco heavier build (10 gate) is obviously going to be more advantageous.
P's map control play in this scenario becomes to get a cannon up and harass Z's 3rd with 4 or 5 zeals. You can only do this if your probe stays alive in their main and you have info on their larva production. If they're over-making drones that's your window to go up to 4-5 zeals (w/ a late gas) and pressure. If your probe scout sees speedlings being made you should sit at your wall with 2-3 zeals (w/e it takes to full wall) and go into gas/core (indirect damage has been done by forcing lings instead of workers). Basically it's all about scouting and reacting properly. That's the entire dynamic of PvZ, it's very multitask intensive.
|
Norway28917 Posts
The first probe scout in pvz is arguably the single most important unit of any matchup.
|
Thanks for great answers 
|
Terran TvP question : sometimes i see T go with tanks/vult and just move without sieging. What are the triggers to make that call? Is it a specific number of tanks or are you looking at the tank vs goon ratio? (And if so what is it roughly?)
Thanks!
|
I'd also be interested in answers if some people actually have exact triggers for this and not do this by game sense.
In early-/mid-game I'd say that you only do this if the goon count is far from doubling the tank count, e.g. after Protoss lost a number of goons in a failed attack on your natural and you preserved all your tanks. But it also depends on the amount of zealots and vultures that are in play. You have to be sure that with your DPS and meat-shield (vultures and/or marines) you could destroy Protoss' whole army without losing all your tanks, thus force Protoss to retreat/kite. Also your reproduction has to be somewhat on par with Protoss, which normally isn't the case.
(Note that tanks actually have higher DPS against single targets if they are unsieged compared to if they are in siege-mode because of their higher rate of fire. They only make more damage in siege-mode if there are enough units in the splash-range of their attacks. Thanks Drone for the correction)
In later mid- to late-game you'd only do this if
a) again, you know that your army can just walk over Protoss', generally after a big fight when you have, let's say, 3-4 ctrl-groups left and know that Protoss can't have more than 1-2, or
b) if your economic position is unusually advantageous, like Protoss only has 1-2 mining bases left and you have 2-3 and can afford to trade inefficiently.
|
Norway28917 Posts
Tanks have higher dps in siege mode. They shoot at half the speed, but deal 70 instead of 30 damage.
|
What are the hot keys to alert allies for a specific location, like a quadrangle with yellow color etc. Thanks.
|
On July 24 2020 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Tanks have higher dps in siege mode. They shoot at half the speed, but deal 70 instead of 30 damage.
Thanks. I don't know my numbers...
I had that misconception for long because it's quite theoretical, as you want to be sieged in almost every scenario anyway (due to range and splash), and I thought it was quite a small difference to begin with, but now I'm confused: I'm quite sure I remember to have read an advice of that sort when I started to learn BW, that you should not siege in certain situations because unsieged tanks would do more damage that way. And not something obvious, like being able to kite unsieged or to avoid friendly fire etc...
Maybe someone remembers what it was, or I just confused something.
|
On July 24 2020 18:41 DigiMask wrote:
What are the hot keys to alert allies for a specific location, like a quadrangle with yellow color etc. Thanks.
Alt + click on the minimap, it's called a ping.
|
On July 24 2020 19:33 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2020 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Tanks have higher dps in siege mode. They shoot at half the speed, but deal 70 instead of 30 damage. Thanks. I don't know my numbers... I had that misconception for long because it's quite theoretical, as you want to be sieged in almost every scenario anyway (due to range and splash), and I thought it was quite a small difference to begin with, but now I'm confused: I'm quite sure I remember to have read an advice of that sort when I started to learn BW, that you should not siege in certain situations because unsieged tanks would do more damage that way. And not something obvious, like being able to kite unsieged or to avoid friendly fire etc... Maybe someone remembers what it was, or I just confused something.
If you Siege up when the enemy will be within minimum range by the time Sieging is done, you'd be better off not Sieging at all...
|
Thanks for the effort.
On July 24 2020 19:33 Highgamer wrote:
And not something obvious
|
On July 24 2020 19:33 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2020 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Tanks have higher dps in siege mode. They shoot at half the speed, but deal 70 instead of 30 damage. Thanks. I don't know my numbers... I had that misconception for long because it's quite theoretical, as you want to be sieged in almost every scenario anyway (due to range and splash), and I thought it was quite a small difference to begin with, but now I'm confused: I'm quite sure I remember to have read an advice of that sort when I started to learn BW, that you should not siege in certain situations because unsieged tanks would do more damage that way. And not something obvious, like being able to kite unsieged or to avoid friendly fire etc... Maybe someone remembers what it was, or I just confused something.
well there is some lost dps from sieging and unsieging lol. also since siege mode has long cooldown for every hit and you are not likely to immediately unsiege after a volley, there is lost dps from unsieging in the middle of siege tank cooldown.
edit: takes roughly like 4 seconds to siege and unsiege and maybe more time wasted from unsieging inefficiently (in middle of siege tank cooldown as mentioned earlier) so in a battle situation it is possible to do like 6 unsieged tank volleys in around the same amount of time as 2 sieged tank volleys (accounting for sieging, firing, and then unsieging) or like 4 unsieged tank volleys in around the same amount of time as 1 sieged tank volley. Then again, it is possible that a terran playing well can do an unsieged tank volley then siege immediately or unsiege and then fire immediately after (not sure if this is how it works though) so maybe the comparison isn't very fair to siege mode.
this is convincing enough of an explanation for me that in some circumstances unsieged tanks do have higher dps than sieged although it's not very precise because I only know tank cooldowns but not exactly how long it takes to siege and unsiege.
|
Norway28917 Posts
Maybe they were talking about sc2? Sc2 tank has higher dps unsieged.
|
lol, that might actually be the case... I played SC2 first and never went back there, might be a dusted piece of information on the wrong shelf.
That or some situational advice after all, like "don't even siege up in scenario X".
The only other none obvious, "technical" thing I could think of was s.th. like delayed target selection because of gun-rotation, lol, but that's a bit far off I'm afraid.
Thanks for your answers.
|
On July 24 2020 23:34 Highgamer wrote:Thanks for the effort.
Better than not knowing basic math then making some rambling excuse but that's just imo
|
On July 25 2020 05:27 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2020 23:34 Highgamer wrote:Thanks for the effort. On July 24 2020 19:33 Highgamer wrote:
And not something obvious Better than not knowing basic math then making some rambling excuse but that's just imo
lol savage
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
