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On August 24 2019 06:45 fefil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +At 8:00, how does bisu know to start making cannons? He had no scouting and if Z just kept droning up he woulda lost the game right there, so not sure what his thought process was. Granted he saw like 8 lings but that doesnt really mean shit in terms of making like 7 blind cannons
Sorry if this answer is not precise at all, some parts might be way off, but I just wanted to go through the fun of checking if I could figure out what happened. (I have zero idea of PvZ).
Bisu had scouting, not at 8.00 but he scouted Zerg earlier. You don't always have to see what your opponent is doing NOW if you could determine EARLIER what they will do.
Even with just auto-generated-subtitles you can figure out that from 4.20 on he scouts somehing that makes him realize that Z will go for aggression.
4.17 Bisu arrives at opponents ramp and sees a drone leaving.
4.30 "Bolted slogan" (translation doesn't make sense, but here Bisu is checking the natural and sees no hatch)
4.34 "The pecking guy will shoot" ("He will rush" or something, he probably knows already that he'll need cannons)
4.42 "Originally 8 8 10" (might be in reference to some kind of Zerg-build)
4.46 "I have a voice. Called." (probably "I know something/I have an idea")
6.28 scouting-probe dies
6.30 Something like "it's the same (build order)" (Bisu has figured out what Zerg will most likely do)
7.00 "I need to do this" (he is sure how many cannons to build)
Zerg build orders are pretty tight so someone who can pay attention to every detail like Bisu will be able to pin it down, at least with a high likelyhood.
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^ So I assume its irrelevant to a B level player because most of my opponents are gonna be thinking hurr durr, thus theres nothing i can extrapolate from early game details like that.
Im just surprised he never sent out an extra scouting probe. No idea how he knew itd be the same 9374 build, maybe just the eight lings + other stuff you mentioned like the nat hatch
Edit: wasnt 9734, just a hydra bust all in. Derp.
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I'm sure one of the 1.000.000 million (yes, one million million) Protosses here will storm in in a minute, tell me how stupid my post was, and tell you exactly what Bisu saw that made him pin down that build (if there wasn't some guessing involved, he played the same player before, etc.).
Of course you can learn exactly that scouting "trick" and apply it in your own games, B rank should be close to where your opponents can do a 9734 properly. Many Zerg builds are not that hard afaik.
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On August 24 2019 06:45 fefil wrote:https://youtu.be/qE08dy6JLKQAt 8:00, how does bisu know to start making cannons? He had no scouting and if Z just kept droning up he woulda lost the game right there, so not sure what his thought process was. Granted he saw like 8 lings but that doesnt really mean shit in terms of making like 7 blind cannons
because he knew his opponent.
some games you got to accept that the pros are making decisions based on the fact that they know their opponents playstyle.
thats really all there is to it here, bisu took a gamble but it paid off because he knew the kind of player zerg was. the zerg is well known in the afreeca community to be an all-iner. bisus played him a lot before also.
when zerg morphed the lair bisu instantly called that lair to be a fake btw. against an unknown zerg you would probably never assume that was a fake lair
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On August 24 2019 09:05 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2019 06:45 fefil wrote:https://youtu.be/qE08dy6JLKQAt 8:00, how does bisu know to start making cannons? He had no scouting and if Z just kept droning up he woulda lost the game right there, so not sure what his thought process was. Granted he saw like 8 lings but that doesnt really mean shit in terms of making like 7 blind cannons because he knew his opponent. some games you got to accept that the pros are making decisions based on the fact that they know their opponents playstyle. thats really all there is to it here, bisu took a gamble but it paid off because he knew the kind of player zerg was. the zerg is well known in the afreeca community to be an all-iner. bisus played him a lot before also. when zerg morphed the lair bisu instantly called that lair to be a fake btw. against an unknown zerg you would probably never assume that was a fake lair
extractor timing and opponents name is more than enough for bisu to play the way he did.zelot second extractor tricked bisu to think it was a drop build tho.but he is to good that hold it well O_o
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Things like number of drones, numbers of zerglings, gas timing,lack of speedlings, speedlings timing, overlord placement, they way zerg tries to deny scout or not, past games vs same opponent, come into play when taking a radical decision like getting cannons like that.
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why do people say you have to be aggressive pvz?
i play extremely passive/defensive. sure, i do the initial zealot harass, i get my corsairs, kill some ovies. i get my first two DTs to go kill drones. I do storm drops. +1 speedzeal timing depending on the map/game. but other than that, i just expand with reaver/cannon/storm. zerg may get up to like 8 base and throw 10000 ultras at me, but as long as I have reavers/storm/archon, all upgraded, maybe even a dark archon, i feel like any P can hold it off. eventually just force the map into a split, and win with cost efficiency.
is this style of play consistent even towards higher level? because i think it could be. i am barely 1.9k though so i have no idea and want A or S ranked players opinion
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I'm getting a message that I have to patch to 1.23.0.6537 for online play. But my client is not auto downloading it and only recognizes the July 1.23 patch. Halp? I want to play online. 
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On August 27 2019 12:00 hazelynut wrote:I'm getting a message that I have to patch to 1.23.0.6537 for online play. But my client is not auto downloading it and only recognizes the July 1.23 patch. Halp? I want to play online.
still having issues? they just released a fix for this i think
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On August 26 2019 22:14 fefil wrote:
why do people say you have to be aggressive pvz?
i play extremely passive/defensive. sure, i do the initial zealot harass, i get my corsairs, kill some ovies. i get my first two DTs to go kill drones. I do storm drops. +1 speedzeal timing depending on the map/game. but other than that, i just expand with reaver/cannon/storm. zerg may get up to like 8 base and throw 10000 ultras at me, but as long as I have reavers/storm/archon, all upgraded, maybe even a dark archon, i feel like any P can hold it off. eventually just force the map into a split, and win with cost efficiency.
is this style of play consistent even towards higher level? because i think it could be. i am barely 1.9k though so i have no idea and want A or S ranked players opinion
i dont play anymore so im unranked but the idea that p has to always play aggressive in the pvz matchup is grossly simplified.
as with any race in any matchup, you have to be aggressive during your window of strength in the game. in pvz it just happens to be that protoss has to do more damage in what could be considered as very short windows otherwise they get outplayed by a mid game zerg with an undisturbed economy.
if you were to sit back and play a very safe macro game (think split map pvt style), zergs should roll protoss in the mid game.
also if a zerg is just mass expanding and waiting on ultras to attack a protoss that is also just expanding and playing passively, the zerg is bad. zergs strength doesnt come from having mass ultras.
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On August 28 2019 01:06 fefil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2019 12:00 hazelynut wrote:I'm getting a message that I have to patch to 1.23.0.6537 for online play. But my client is not auto downloading it and only recognizes the July 1.23 patch. Halp? I want to play online. still having issues? they just released a fix for this i think
Fixed  That was weird!
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On August 28 2019 02:08 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2019 22:14 fefil wrote:
why do people say you have to be aggressive pvz?
i play extremely passive/defensive. sure, i do the initial zealot harass, i get my corsairs, kill some ovies. i get my first two DTs to go kill drones. I do storm drops. +1 speedzeal timing depending on the map/game. but other than that, i just expand with reaver/cannon/storm. zerg may get up to like 8 base and throw 10000 ultras at me, but as long as I have reavers/storm/archon, all upgraded, maybe even a dark archon, i feel like any P can hold it off. eventually just force the map into a split, and win with cost efficiency.
is this style of play consistent even towards higher level? because i think it could be. i am barely 1.9k though so i have no idea and want A or S ranked players opinion i dont play anymore so im unranked but the idea that p has to always play aggressive in the pvz matchup is grossly simplified. as with any race in any matchup, you have to be aggressive during your window of strength in the game. in pvz it just happens to be that protoss has to do more damage in what could be considered as very short windows otherwise they get outplayed by a mid game zerg with an undisturbed economy. if you were to sit back and play a very safe macro game (think split map pvt style), zergs should roll protoss in the mid game. also if a zerg is just mass expanding and waiting on ultras to attack a protoss that is also just expanding and playing passively, the zerg is bad. zergs strength doesnt come from having mass ultras.
It's more that P has to be aggresive early / mid game, otherwise zerg grows too fast and you will not get an equal/better position in late game. When zerg hits 4 base hive with triple evo chamber, defiler and lurker protoss cannot really attack effeciently anymore and is forced into macro defense.
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How to do strong 2 base 5 factories push in TvP? I suck at macro late game so I try to end game or deal crippling damage to Protoss with 2 base attack.
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On August 29 2019 04:58 Wrath wrote:
How to do strong 2 base 5 factories push in TvP? I suck at macro late game so I try to end game or deal crippling damage to Protoss with 2 base attack.
Make 5 Factories, cut SCVs, pump units, hope he is going greedy, and pray.
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On August 29 2019 04:58 Wrath wrote:
How to do strong 2 base 5 factories push in TvP? I suck at macro late game so I try to end game or deal crippling damage to Protoss with 2 base attack.
I recommend to look at Hiya replays here: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/310883-replays
He often used 5 factory pushes in his games. In general though, the response from Jealous is pretty spot on.
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On August 29 2019 04:58 Wrath wrote:
How to do strong 2 base 5 factories push in TvP? I suck at macro late game so I try to end game or deal crippling damage to Protoss with 2 base attack.
What MMR are you? I wouldn't recommend planning to 2 base, 5 fact before a game starts. You want to adjust your build based upon your opponents opening, economy and unit production. Instead, try it when you're ahead and want to end the game. Try it when your opponent goes 2 gate into 3 nexus. Try it when your opponent fails at some kind of early game aggression. Try it anytime your opponent throws away dragoons in the early game.
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Another important point to do a strong 5fact is that with 2base timings, even though you might feel stronger, in many situations you actually have to push much more carefully than with 3base timings.
One reason why 3base-pushes are so good is that the big army enables Terran to quickly advance far distances because Protoss has to be very careful where to engage that Terran death-ball.
With 2base-pushes you will only have so and so many tanks without upgrades, so you have to make 100% sure that Protoss cannot snipe them, you have to be patient and wait for your vulture count to grow big enough. You can't just trade, you have to crush and take s.th. from Protoss.
Like EndingLife wrote though, sometimes 5fact just cannot/should not work, if Protoss is not playing too greedy. And even if Protoss goes fast 3rd nexus your timing-window with 5fact is very small. So if you don't like lategame, you might want to also learn 2-3 other aggressive builds to be able to mix it up, like StrongFD for smaller maps or 2/3factory pushes against early 3rd nexus. Just unexpected mass speed-vultures double-pronged harrass can hurt a lot of Protoss players, depending on opportunity, your level of execution and the opponents multitasking.
Also: You say you cannot macro lategame now, but that can be learned... Did you ever sit down and, let's say, just play 3 games in a row in the single player in which you only focus on fixing the most glaring macro mistakes? Maybe do that one week, once every day. Takes only one hour each sitting and could give you a different perspective on what you can achieve.
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Is there a YouTube channel where I can watch and learn BGH strategies and builds?
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On August 30 2019 01:27 kidcrash wrote:
Is there a YouTube channel where I can watch and learn BGH strategies and builds?
When pros do team battles they often do 3v3 / 4v4 on hunters. I know it's not BGH but you can find these kind of games on Flash and other pros channels.
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On August 29 2019 04:58 Wrath wrote:
How to do strong 2 base 5 factories push in TvP? I suck at macro late game so I try to end game or deal crippling damage to Protoss with 2 base attack.
I highly recommend to do this with at least +1 upgrade, as straigth 5 fact is too obvious for P and 7min observer gives enough time to prepare. Also reaver is so deadly vs it. With a bit delayed but stronger push you pose a question to P at least as you can either stay 2 base for very long and get 2-1 or you can go earlier if P decides to get lets say 3rd/4th base faster.
If you really want to 5 fact so hard I suggest going siege expand + some turret ring hiding the 5 fact behind it. Go 2 siege addons, produce only tanks while adding to 5 facts and move out with 8-10 tanks and mass vulture behind. Cut 2nd gas SCVs when you have all 5 facts ready and mine / speed upgrade ordered (1 gas is enough to pump tanks from 2 facts)
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EPT
