EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 424
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Jealous
10267 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1530 Posts
On July 13 2019 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: The nuke is actually such an example. If you are nuking, then being burrowed under swarm does not save you from the main area where you take full damage, but being burrowed under dark swarm will save the units that are in the splash-damage area from taking any damage. I think it is conceivable, or even likely, based on how the game works, that spider mine splash damage might not damage burrowed units under dark swarm. Maybe scarabs too. But sadly it's kinda impossible to test this, and the situations where this could happen in a real game just.. don't really happen. You would basically need to have mines planted in such a way that it would be triggered by a zergling running past it, and then follow that zergling into an area where there are burrowed zerg units (and where they are not lurkers, because then the mine prolly gets shot down), and then the mine would have to detonate in such a way that it does not deal full damage to the burrowed unit-area. In that case, I actually think it's probable that the less than 100% of damage-hit would end up dealing 0. With scarabs, I guess you actually could get in scenarios where two lurkers are burrowed reasonably close by under swarm, but I've never noticed whether one lurker took less than 100 damage in such a scenario. And also while I've never used infested terrans against zerg units under swarm, I actually think they also probably deal 0 damage with the should deal 250-area damage. Lurkers and firebats are more exception-based splash damage because they don't deal reduced damage to any area. And my impression is that the damage that burrowed swarmed units end up dodging is the reduced damage. But there is also something about the explosion being offshot, and this might be a reason why scarabs, whose explosion under swarm does't look to be offshot in the manner you seem from tanks, might still deal splash. But I actually don't know the stuff that never comes up in a game and that you can't test in single player :D Why is it impossible to test something? Just create the scenario you need in a test map. Only takes you a minute. But in general you already explained how it works. You only need to know how Dark Swarm and Burrow actually operate: Dark Swarm: For ranged attacks with a point of impact, move that point 30px closer to the attacking unit (if the attack deals radial splash damage that damage will be dealt around that POI, if it is a direct attack, no damage will be dealt at all). Burrow: Burrowed units only take damage from the inner 100% splash area of a radial splash attack. They are also protected from AoE/based debuffs such as Plague. Knowing these two things you can predict all possible outcomes. Examples:
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Highgamer
1447 Posts
Is it always you, Freakling, who finds these questions about DS/burrowed lurkers after a while and ends the usual guessing-game that starts as soon as someone asks about this? Don't get me wrong though. The properties of DS + burrow are a most entertaining mystery, an eternal riddle meant to never be solved. Who could remember all the game-mechanics involved and draw all the right conclusions? You're a weirdo, my friend. xD | ||
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iopq
United States1039 Posts
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States347 Posts
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fefil
92 Posts
Reason I ask is because I just fucking lost a game because i kept it at my base. Didn't scout his build early enough. But i have lost my fair share of games by doing the opposite WTF | ||
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Jealous
10267 Posts
On July 20 2019 08:37 fefil wrote: In PvP, should you send the first obs to his base or keep it at your main? Reason I ask is because I just fucking lost a game because i kept it at my base. Didn't scout his build early enough. But i have lost my fair share of games by doing the opposite WTF From what I know, if there is a chance that it could be DT you should send to your natural and then follow the walking path to your opponent to see if DT are coming. If you don't see DT then keep going to his main. Seeing his build is always better than not seeing it, but seeing DTs is better than not seeing them (and thus you confirm that part of his buildl. Tim has suggested to me in the past to keep the obs in your nat for 10 seconds before sending it out because depending on your builds, the obs may be out earlier than the DT and thus you will see the DT come in while your obs is in your nat, and if they go obs then your dragoons may be close enough to snipe his obs if he sent it to you right away (and then you know it isn't DT anyway). Don't get frustrated by the apparent duality you are experiencing. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
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Jealous
10267 Posts
On July 20 2019 10:44 JonttuTonttu wrote: If that is exactly how it works, someone should copy-paste Freaklings explanation of the ds+burrow damage thing into a liquipedia article about damage types for example (melee, ranged, splash etc.) In fact, you could do it. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
Maybe, or you ololol. Still I was just thinking it could fit into a liquipedia article pretty well in that format etc. Maybe the people who know liquipedia's content like the palms of their hands and are experienced at editing wiki or liquipedia pages could do it. | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
But sometimes, your win condition is 'starve out the zerg'. It's very hard to attack into a zerg player who is truly committed to defending; but a committed defense includes a lot of lurkers, meaning that he can't have too many bases defended in an impenetrable way. If you take a 'standard split map late game' on fighting spirit, where say, protoss has the 6 bases associated with the top left and top right bases, while zerg has the other 6 bases. In this case, protoss win condition will sometimes be 'expand to the middle and secure it and mine it out'. It's boring and frustrating if you're playing against a zerg that just turtles like that, because he can make the game last for 20 minutes after 'you've won', but I think it's preferable to trying to break him and actually lose. If you managed to preserve your corsair fleet from early game and the zerg is really banking on static d+lurkers for defense while not having big mobile armies, getting dweb for breaking one of the naturals can be a legitimate option; then goons can just pounce on the buildings. But if you have to rebuild your sairs before doing that, it's normally too expensive. | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
On July 22 2019 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote: In general, use more reavers. They're essential both for defending your bases and for attacking zerg. But sometimes, your win condition is 'starve out the zerg'. It's very hard to attack into a zerg player who is truly committed to defending; but a committed defense includes a lot of lurkers, meaning that he can't have too many bases defended in an impenetrable way. If you take a 'standard split map late game' on fighting spirit, where say, protoss has the 6 bases associated with the top left and top right bases, while zerg has the other 6 bases. In this case, protoss win condition will sometimes be 'expand to the middle and secure it and mine it out'. It's boring and frustrating if you're playing against a zerg that just turtles like that, because he can make the game last for 20 minutes after 'you've won', but I think it's preferable to trying to break him and actually lose. If you managed to preserve your corsair fleet from early game and the zerg is really banking on static d+lurkers for defense while not having big mobile armies, getting dweb for breaking one of the naturals can be a legitimate option; then goons can just pounce on the buildings. But if you have to rebuild your sairs before doing that, it's normally too expensive. I agree with the premise of your post, but I disagree on a more superficial level. Starving the zerg out 6 base vs 6 base might be more likely to give you a win, but I have no interest in playing hour ling games against the trending turtle style defense Zergs have started using lately. So with that being said, what would be the best way to break him? Reavers are an excellent tool as you said. But I was thinking maybe a few arbs with recall would work really well? Never tried it though, just theorycrafting here. Again I know starving the zerg out is the best way to win, but as a casual ladder player in the 1700s I would really prefer finding some sort of timing I can exploit, such as attacking after a couple brutal storm drops or sometthing. Just ways to break a zergs defense either directly or indirectly, feel me? I will say that dweb is a great idea though. Will definitely give it a go. Only problem is dark swarm. And nydus. | ||
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Jealous
10267 Posts
On July 22 2019 09:35 fefil wrote: I agree with the premise of your post, but I disagree on a more superficial level. Starving the zerg out 6 base vs 6 base might be more likely to give you a win, but I have no interest in playing hour ling games against the trending turtle style defense Zergs have started using lately. So with that being said, what would be the best way to break him? Reavers are an excellent tool as you said. But I was thinking maybe a few arbs with recall would work really well? Never tried it though, just theorycrafting here. Again I know starving the zerg out is the best way to win, but as a casual ladder player in the 1700s I would really prefer finding some sort of timing I can exploit, such as attacking after a couple brutal storm drops or sometthing. Just ways to break a zergs defense either directly or indirectly, feel me? I will say that dweb is a great idea though. Will definitely give it a go. There are early Reaver timings you can hit at like 9-10 minutes, but at the end of the day, if you can't bust him you can't bust him. It takes two to tango, and if he chooses to play a really slow and defensive turtle style, the best response is greed. You can't just do whatever you want to do in this game. Arbiters are used sometimes at lower levels but honestly they should not be a viable fall-back option. I believe it is 3 scourge to kill 1 arbiter, and good Zergs should have the map awareness to snipe it even with Corsair back up. That being said, I've used Arbiters in situations like this before, but I recognize that this is only because I'm not playing at a high level. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
I agree that starving the zerg out, especially 7 vs 6 bases, is generally too tedious.  So in that case, work on implementing reavers earlier, and maybe even try goon templar dweb (if you open with sair and avoid losing them. ) In that case, you're basically sacrificing ~1 templar and 4 goons in the +2 attack army you walk around with to give yourself 6+ dwebs. This is the kind of choice that kills you if the zerg is doing pure hydra and not turtling, but if he's doing real turtle zerg, it can work, and then it feels amazing. I don't have a build order and I haven't used this much, but I've had it work absolutely fantastically on a couple occasions. (as well as fail miserably other times. ) | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
That said I am currently tilted so I am sure thats influencing me right now | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
 If you are gonna go arbiter, you want to do it after having preserved your corsairs. If it's only protected by goons, they will get scourged. And the mass sair is also great both for killing overlords (which both hinders his detection and enables you to find recall-paths). | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8796 Posts
On July 22 2019 09:43 fefil wrote: Call me stubborn but I cant be assed to play these long drawn out games where nothing really happens. Id rather bust or die trying. That said I am currently tilted so I am sure thats influencing me right now why are you asking a question if you have already have an answer for yourself and youre not interested in entertaining the other solutions brought up. if youre not good enough to kill the zerg while he turtles and you end up in some late game 5-6 base pvz, its a war of attrition. its what you get for not being good enough to roll him earlier. now like you said, you can just choose to bust him anyway and die trying but if youre looking for some magic cheat that gives you siege tanks for your bust youre looking in the wrong place | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
On July 22 2019 09:53 evilfatsh1t wrote: why are you asking a question if you have already have an answer for yourself and youre not interested in entertaining the other solutions brought up. if youre not good enough to kill the zerg while he turtles and you end up in some late game 5-6 base pvz, its a war of attrition. its what you get for not being good enough to roll him earlier. now like you said, you can just choose to bust him anyway and die trying but if youre looking for some magic cheat that gives you siege tanks for your bust youre looking in the wrong place Dont get snippy with me. So far youre the only one who has a problem with it. Im asking the most reliable way to beat a zerg that turtles without the game going on for an hour. If there isnt a reliable way to do that, then obviously I want the most reliable way. There are ways to do it, so far some great suggestions have been made. The fact is I dont have the answer and I am grateful for the aforementioned disruption web and reaver timing suggestions that others have pointed out. And im not looking for a magic cheat, im well aware this isnt the most optimal way to play. You misconstrued my posts entirely | ||
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