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Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10141 Posts
July 13 2019 14:35 GMT
#8461
The fact that this topic has been raging for decades tells me that we need to get a couple players of each race into a game and spend an hour testing every possible scenario. Have the community draft a list of questions concerning swarm and splash and just test all of them. Make a long video of it and a full report. That would be a fun project IMO.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-13 21:51:08
July 13 2019 21:47 GMT
#8462
it must be because scarabs or mines are not ranged attacks, they are both melee attacks from a unit, because scarab is a unit that just can't be selected @_@ and firebat attack also a melee thing with a shape and flat damage.. is it really flat damage or I thought there is something about the tip dealing different damage wooot i don't know maybe just larger area at the tip. But archon is ranged. Unlike lurker is kinda a melee thing with a shape too, so it's just not affected by swarm. Do infested terran deal full damage under swarm even to burrowed -_- my guess is yes cause it's melee.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
July 15 2019 13:27 GMT
#8463
On July 13 2019 22:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
The nuke is actually such an example. If you are nuking, then being burrowed under swarm does not save you from the main area where you take full damage, but being burrowed under dark swarm will save the units that are in the splash-damage area from taking any damage.

I think it is conceivable, or even likely, based on how the game works, that spider mine splash damage might not damage burrowed units under dark swarm. Maybe scarabs too. But sadly it's kinda impossible to test this, and the situations where this could happen in a real game just.. don't really happen. You would basically need to have mines planted in such a way that it would be triggered by a zergling running past it, and then follow that zergling into an area where there are burrowed zerg units (and where they are not lurkers, because then the mine prolly gets shot down), and then the mine would have to detonate in such a way that it does not deal full damage to the burrowed unit-area. In that case, I actually think it's probable that the less than 100% of damage-hit would end up dealing 0. With scarabs, I guess you actually could get in scenarios where two lurkers are burrowed reasonably close by under swarm, but I've never noticed whether one lurker took less than 100 damage in such a scenario. And also while I've never used infested terrans against zerg units under swarm, I actually think they also probably deal 0 damage with the should deal 250-area damage.

Lurkers and firebats are more exception-based splash damage because they don't deal reduced damage to any area. And my impression is that the damage that burrowed swarmed units end up dodging is the reduced damage. But there is also something about the explosion being offshot, and this might be a reason why scarabs, whose explosion under swarm does't look to be offshot in the manner you seem from tanks, might still deal splash. But I actually don't know the stuff that never comes up in a game and that you can't test in single player :D

Why is it impossible to test something? Just create the scenario you need in a test map. Only takes you a minute.

But in general you already explained how it works. You only need to know how Dark Swarm and Burrow actually operate:

Dark Swarm: For ranged attacks with a point of impact, move that point 30px closer to the attacking unit (if the attack deals radial splash damage that damage will be dealt around that POI, if it is a direct attack, no damage will be dealt at all).

Burrow: Burrowed units only take damage from the inner 100% splash area of a radial splash attack. They are also protected from AoE/based debuffs such as Plague.

Knowing these two things you can predict all possible outcomes.

Examples:
  • Scarab/Mine/Infested Terran vs. burrowed Lurkers under Dark Swarm: Since all of these just explode in a suicide attack, hence have no projectile or POI, all Lurkers within the 100% splash area will receive full damage, other Lurkers will be protected because they are burrowed. Dark Swarm does not have any effect in this scenario.

  • Lurkers/Firebats vs. burrowed units under Dark Swarm: These are linear splash attacks without partial damage areas or POI (actually FB attacks do have a radial component, but let's not overcomplicate things), hence neither Dark Swarm nor Burrow has any effect on the damage output.

  • Tanks/Archons vs. burrowed units under Dark Swarm: Projectile based attacks with radial splash, hence the point of impact gets moved 30 pixels towards the attacker and any unit burrowed underneath the 100% damage area around that point receive full damage. Burrowed units farther out are protected.

  • etc.
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1407 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-15 20:10:30
July 15 2019 18:34 GMT
#8464
Such a déjà-vu with. I think I've seen this outcome a few dozen times over the years.

Is it always you, Freakling, who finds these questions about DS/burrowed lurkers after a while and ends the usual guessing-game that starts as soon as someone asks about this?

Don't get me wrong though. The properties of DS + burrow are a most entertaining mystery, an eternal riddle meant to never be solved. Who could remember all the game-mechanics involved and draw all the right conclusions? You're a weirdo, my friend. xD
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States911 Posts
July 16 2019 08:20 GMT
#8465
what's the shortcut to display TR
ArmadA[NaS]
Profile Joined January 2014
United States347 Posts
July 16 2019 21:29 GMT
#8466
Cntrl+Alt+T
fefil
Profile Joined July 2019
92 Posts
July 19 2019 23:37 GMT
#8467
In PvP, should you send the first obs to his base or keep it at your main?

Reason I ask is because I just fucking lost a game because i kept it at my base. Didn't scout his build early enough. But i have lost my fair share of games by doing the opposite WTF
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10141 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-20 00:01:34
July 20 2019 00:01 GMT
#8468
On July 20 2019 08:37 fefil wrote:
In PvP, should you send the first obs to his base or keep it at your main?

Reason I ask is because I just fucking lost a game because i kept it at my base. Didn't scout his build early enough. But i have lost my fair share of games by doing the opposite WTF

From what I know, if there is a chance that it could be DT you should send to your natural and then follow the walking path to your opponent to see if DT are coming. If you don't see DT then keep going to his main. Seeing his build is always better than not seeing it, but seeing DTs is better than not seeing them (and thus you confirm that part of his buildl. Tim has suggested to me in the past to keep the obs in your nat for 10 seconds before sending it out because depending on your builds, the obs may be out earlier than the DT and thus you will see the DT come in while your obs is in your nat, and if they go obs then your dragoons may be close enough to snipe his obs if he sent it to you right away (and then you know it isn't DT anyway).

Don't get frustrated by the apparent duality you are experiencing.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
JonttuTonttu
Profile Blog Joined November 2018
81 Posts
July 20 2019 01:44 GMT
#8469
If that is exactly how it works, someone should copy-paste Freaklings explanation of the ds+burrow damage thing into a liquipedia article about damage types for example (melee, ranged, splash etc.)
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10141 Posts
July 20 2019 01:46 GMT
#8470
On July 20 2019 10:44 JonttuTonttu wrote:
If that is exactly how it works, someone should copy-paste Freaklings explanation of the ds+burrow damage thing into a liquipedia article about damage types for example (melee, ranged, splash etc.)

In fact, you could do it.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
JonttuTonttu
Profile Blog Joined November 2018
81 Posts
July 21 2019 20:47 GMT
#8471
On July 20 2019 10:46 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2019 10:44 JonttuTonttu wrote:
If that is exactly how it works, someone should copy-paste Freaklings explanation of the ds+burrow damage thing into a liquipedia article about damage types for example (melee, ranged, splash etc.)

In fact, you could do it.

Maybe, or you ololol.

Still I was just thinking it could fit into a liquipedia article pretty well in that format etc. Maybe the people who know liquipedia's content like the palms of their hands and are experienced at editing wiki or liquipedia pages could do it.
fefil
Profile Joined July 2019
92 Posts
July 21 2019 22:25 GMT
#8472
Whats the win condition in lategame PvZ? For PvT its pretty simple. Get your arbiters, recall, or carriers, break the terran apart with superior eco. But in PvZ what is there to do? Its so hard to attack into dark swarm + simcity + lurkers while simultaneously having units spread around to defend against the possibility of crackling drops etc. i find I get into a situation where I have to turtle more than i should.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
July 21 2019 22:43 GMT
#8473
In general, use more reavers. They're essential both for defending your bases and for attacking zerg.

But sometimes, your win condition is 'starve out the zerg'. It's very hard to attack into a zerg player who is truly committed to defending; but a committed defense includes a lot of lurkers, meaning that he can't have too many bases defended in an impenetrable way.

If you take a 'standard split map late game' on fighting spirit, where say, protoss has the 6 bases associated with the top left and top right bases, while zerg has the other 6 bases. In this case, protoss win condition will sometimes be 'expand to the middle and secure it and mine it out'. It's boring and frustrating if you're playing against a zerg that just turtles like that, because he can make the game last for 20 minutes after 'you've won', but I think it's preferable to trying to break him and actually lose.

If you managed to preserve your corsair fleet from early game and the zerg is really banking on static d+lurkers for defense while not having big mobile armies, getting dweb for breaking one of the naturals can be a legitimate option; then goons can just pounce on the buildings. But if you have to rebuild your sairs before doing that, it's normally too expensive.
Moderator
fefil
Profile Joined July 2019
92 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-22 00:38:19
July 22 2019 00:35 GMT
#8474
On July 22 2019 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In general, use more reavers. They're essential both for defending your bases and for attacking zerg.

But sometimes, your win condition is 'starve out the zerg'. It's very hard to attack into a zerg player who is truly committed to defending; but a committed defense includes a lot of lurkers, meaning that he can't have too many bases defended in an impenetrable way.

If you take a 'standard split map late game' on fighting spirit, where say, protoss has the 6 bases associated with the top left and top right bases, while zerg has the other 6 bases. In this case, protoss win condition will sometimes be 'expand to the middle and secure it and mine it out'. It's boring and frustrating if you're playing against a zerg that just turtles like that, because he can make the game last for 20 minutes after 'you've won', but I think it's preferable to trying to break him and actually lose.

If you managed to preserve your corsair fleet from early game and the zerg is really banking on static d+lurkers for defense while not having big mobile armies, getting dweb for breaking one of the naturals can be a legitimate option; then goons can just pounce on the buildings. But if you have to rebuild your sairs before doing that, it's normally too expensive.

I agree with the premise of your post, but I disagree on a more superficial level. Starving the zerg out 6 base vs 6 base might be more likely to give you a win, but I have no interest in playing hour ling games against the trending turtle style defense Zergs have started using lately. So with that being said, what would be the best way to break him? Reavers are an excellent tool as you said. But I was thinking maybe a few arbs with recall would work really well? Never tried it though, just theorycrafting here.
Again I know starving the zerg out is the best way to win, but as a casual ladder player in the 1700s I would really prefer finding some sort of timing I can exploit, such as attacking after a couple brutal storm drops or sometthing. Just ways to break a zergs defense either directly or indirectly, feel me?

I will say that dweb is a great idea though. Will definitely give it a go. Only problem is dark swarm. And nydus.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10141 Posts
July 22 2019 00:40 GMT
#8475
On July 22 2019 09:35 fefil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2019 07:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In general, use more reavers. They're essential both for defending your bases and for attacking zerg.

But sometimes, your win condition is 'starve out the zerg'. It's very hard to attack into a zerg player who is truly committed to defending; but a committed defense includes a lot of lurkers, meaning that he can't have too many bases defended in an impenetrable way.

If you take a 'standard split map late game' on fighting spirit, where say, protoss has the 6 bases associated with the top left and top right bases, while zerg has the other 6 bases. In this case, protoss win condition will sometimes be 'expand to the middle and secure it and mine it out'. It's boring and frustrating if you're playing against a zerg that just turtles like that, because he can make the game last for 20 minutes after 'you've won', but I think it's preferable to trying to break him and actually lose.

If you managed to preserve your corsair fleet from early game and the zerg is really banking on static d+lurkers for defense while not having big mobile armies, getting dweb for breaking one of the naturals can be a legitimate option; then goons can just pounce on the buildings. But if you have to rebuild your sairs before doing that, it's normally too expensive.

I agree with the premise of your post, but I disagree on a more superficial level. Starving the zerg out 6 base vs 6 base might be more likely to give you a win, but I have no interest in playing hour ling games against the trending turtle style defense Zergs have started using lately. So with that being said, what would be the best way to break him? Reavers are an excellent tool as you said. But I was thinking maybe a few arbs with recall would work really well? Never tried it though, just theorycrafting here.
Again I know starving the zerg out is the best way to win, but as a casual ladder player in the 1700s I would really prefer finding some sort of timing I can exploit, such as attacking after a couple brutal storm drops or sometthing. Just ways to break a zergs defense either directly or indirectly, feel me?

I will say that dweb is a great idea though. Will definitely give it a go.

There are early Reaver timings you can hit at like 9-10 minutes, but at the end of the day, if you can't bust him you can't bust him. It takes two to tango, and if he chooses to play a really slow and defensive turtle style, the best response is greed. You can't just do whatever you want to do in this game.

Arbiters are used sometimes at lower levels but honestly they should not be a viable fall-back option. I believe it is 3 scourge to kill 1 arbiter, and good Zergs should have the map awareness to snipe it even with Corsair back up. That being said, I've used Arbiters in situations like this before, but I recognize that this is only because I'm not playing at a high level.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
July 22 2019 00:43 GMT
#8476
Arbiters are not reliable, but they can work. If it's recall you're after then iunno, I honestly think the cloak aspect is the most valuable aspect.

I agree that starving the zerg out, especially 7 vs 6 bases, is generally too tedious. So in that case, work on implementing reavers earlier, and maybe even try goon templar dweb (if you open with sair and avoid losing them. ) In that case, you're basically sacrificing ~1 templar and 4 goons in the +2 attack army you walk around with to give yourself 6+ dwebs. This is the kind of choice that kills you if the zerg is doing pure hydra and not turtling, but if he's doing real turtle zerg, it can work, and then it feels amazing. I don't have a build order and I haven't used this much, but I've had it work absolutely fantastically on a couple occasions. (as well as fail miserably other times. )
Moderator
fefil
Profile Joined July 2019
92 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-22 00:43:23
July 22 2019 00:43 GMT
#8477
Call me stubborn but I cant be assed to play these long drawn out games where nothing really happens. Id rather bust or die trying.

That said I am currently tilted so I am sure thats influencing me right now
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
July 22 2019 00:45 GMT
#8478
4 scourge to kill an arb btw If you are gonna go arbiter, you want to do it after having preserved your corsairs. If it's only protected by goons, they will get scourged. And the mass sair is also great both for killing overlords (which both hinders his detection and enables you to find recall-paths).
Moderator
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8648 Posts
July 22 2019 00:53 GMT
#8479
On July 22 2019 09:43 fefil wrote:
Call me stubborn but I cant be assed to play these long drawn out games where nothing really happens. Id rather bust or die trying.

That said I am currently tilted so I am sure thats influencing me right now

why are you asking a question if you have already have an answer for yourself and youre not interested in entertaining the other solutions brought up.
if youre not good enough to kill the zerg while he turtles and you end up in some late game 5-6 base pvz, its a war of attrition.
its what you get for not being good enough to roll him earlier. now like you said, you can just choose to bust him anyway and die trying but if youre looking for some magic cheat that gives you siege tanks for your bust youre looking in the wrong place
fefil
Profile Joined July 2019
92 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-22 02:45:40
July 22 2019 02:44 GMT
#8480
On July 22 2019 09:53 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2019 09:43 fefil wrote:
Call me stubborn but I cant be assed to play these long drawn out games where nothing really happens. Id rather bust or die trying.

That said I am currently tilted so I am sure thats influencing me right now

why are you asking a question if you have already have an answer for yourself and youre not interested in entertaining the other solutions brought up.
if youre not good enough to kill the zerg while he turtles and you end up in some late game 5-6 base pvz, its a war of attrition.
its what you get for not being good enough to roll him earlier. now like you said, you can just choose to bust him anyway and die trying but if youre looking for some magic cheat that gives you siege tanks for your bust youre looking in the wrong place

Dont get snippy with me. So far youre the only one who has a problem with it. Im asking the most reliable way to beat a zerg that turtles without the game going on for an hour. If there isnt a reliable way to do that, then obviously I want the most reliable way. There are ways to do it, so far some great suggestions have been made. The fact is I dont have the answer and I am grateful for the aforementioned disruption web and reaver timing suggestions that others have pointed out. And im not looking for a magic cheat, im well aware this isnt the most optimal way to play. You misconstrued my posts entirely
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