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On February 12 2018 21:00 ajmbek wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2018 15:22 WGT-Baal wrote:
Hi wise players of the forum,
I have a question regarding PvP specifically on Match Point.
I played it 3 times on ladder and got proxied 3 times with various results but overall i felt like it is the superior build (i mean 2 gates, not necessarily proxied) because the lack of ramp and the shape of the main/nat/3rd makes it reslly hard to play a 1gate-based build. But then agsin i m not very good so may be i m just panicking/screwing up.
So the question is : do you think 2gates is the way to go on match point (and may be all maps without ramp?) or is there a safe way to go 1gate on it? How about a canon style FE (pvz like)?
Thank you in advance! 2gate losts is standard on Blue Storm, it is palyable on Phyton, but is not ok on Match Point. Maybe you should scaut earlyer, so you can adapt. Post the replays for more
Thanks! I m away until next week but i ll post it when i get back. In light of the answers though i believe it is down to poor building placement on my part (didnt wall correctly at all) leading to panic mode.
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When using Archons in PvZ, you just use them like zealots right? No need to do any special positioning or babysit them? Or is there a more efficient way to use them?
And how many archons is enough? In lategame PvZ, I have had more success with using archons than mass HTs. I always thought mass HTs would be better but having an army that can keep on fighting seems to be more effective. I sometimes don't even use storm and morph them into archons right away.
What is the Zerg counter to archons then? Archons are great against lings. And coupled with Zealots, hydras aren't so scary.
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hydras can focus fire archons and then lings will tear you apart
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How are lurkers vs Archons? Against mass hydra, I use Archons and lots so I'm usually OK. Against a lurker field, archon and zealots will still work? Or is it better to not attack and start making goons?
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you want both hts and archons
you don't want more hts than you'd cast storm in a fight so you probably want like 4~6 in your army. the rest can be morphed into archons
versus lurker field you want goons+ht. if they have swarm you want reavers+ht
archons are ok against lurkers outside of swarm but you generally want to keep them in the back with your zealots until the lurkers are mostly cleared
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On February 16 2018 08:26 Dead9 wrote:
versus lurker field you want goons+ht. if they have swarm you want reavers+ht
archons are ok against lurkers outside of swarm but you generally want to keep them in the back with your zealots until the lurkers are mostly cleared
Why would the Archons, your unit with 350 shield and splash damage, be hiding behind your ranged unit, the Dragoon or Reaver? If the Zerg has Dark Swarm on the field and you have Dragoons as your front-line, be prepared to lose that army lol. Zerglings will close the distance and murder all of them... this is PvZ 101. Also, if you actually have Reavers in a position to start killing Lurkers, why the hell would you waste your Psi Storms on them too? You use your Storms to kill the Lings or Hydralisks attempting to rush your Reavers if you even have HT, but really, Archons can cover for the Reavers much better. They ravage Mutas and Lings, and Reavers will absolutely murder Hydras and Lurkers lol. The synergy is strong.
I feel like people underestimate the power of an Archon because they measure an Archon's worth versus Psi Storm. There are a lot of situations where it just doesn't make sense to have High Templar on the field when you could have an Archon, ie Mutalisks murdering your HT repeatedly. Morph some Archons. The Zerg made it to Ultra/Ling. You NEED Archons, for real. Any situation where the Zerg is swarming your armies with Lings under Dark Swarm, an Archon with some Zealots will do work.
Archons are tanks. They have an insane amount of shield, they do an insane amount of splash damage and they are nice and fat. Zealot/Archon is a strong army comp against Zerg in the mid-game if you can supplement it with some ranged damage. Corsairs fit well into that composition. Psi Storm is pretty much necessary in the current meta, mostly because of Hydralisks massing up and shooting down all your melee units before they can even close the distance. Archon/Zealot is fast though, so if you can manage to flank the Hydralisks you can kill them very effectively in a corner.
But the simple answer is: Archons are tanky fighters. So if you see a need for that in your army, then get them. Try not to think of it as Psi Storm versus Archon. That is a flawed mentality since High Templar and Archons serve very different purposes.
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On February 16 2018 07:36 Golgotha wrote:
How are lurkers vs Archons? Against mass hydra, I use Archons and lots so I'm usually OK.
Mass hydra was found to be the answer to zealot/archon in like 2008 when people started going 5 hatchery hydra
you need HTs for the hydra
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Newb question. How do you know when to get Psi Storm in PvT? And when do you skip getting it? Thanks.
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On February 17 2018 01:13 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Newb question. How do you know when to get Psi Storm in PvT? And when do you skip getting it? Thanks.
In the most standard approach to PvT with Arbiters, you should be at close to 0 gas throughout the game until you make your first Arbiter + upgrades research. I imagine after that as you secure more bases, you can begin to incorporate Storm and Templar.
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On February 16 2018 13:29 GunSlinger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2018 08:26 Dead9 wrote:
versus lurker field you want goons+ht. if they have swarm you want reavers+ht
archons are ok against lurkers outside of swarm but you generally want to keep them in the back with your zealots until the lurkers are mostly cleared Why would the Archons, your unit with 350 shield and splash damage, be hiding behind your ranged unit, the Dragoon or Reaver? If the Zerg has Dark Swarm on the field and you have Dragoons as your front-line, be prepared to lose that army lol. Zerglings will close the distance and murder all of them... this is PvZ 101. Also, if you actually have Reavers in a position to start killing Lurkers, why the hell would you waste your Psi Storms on them too? You use your Storms to kill the Lings or Hydralisks attempting to rush your Reavers if you even have HT, but really, Archons can cover for the Reavers much better. They ravage Mutas and Lings, and Reavers will absolutely murder Hydras and Lurkers lol. The synergy is strong. I feel like people underestimate the power of an Archon because they measure an Archon's worth versus Psi Storm. There are a lot of situations where it just doesn't make sense to have High Templar on the field when you could have an Archon, ie Mutalisks murdering your HT repeatedly. Morph some Archons. The Zerg made it to Ultra/Ling. You NEED Archons, for real. Any situation where the Zerg is swarming your armies with Lings under Dark Swarm, an Archon with some Zealots will do work. Archons are tanks. They have an insane amount of shield, they do an insane amount of splash damage and they are nice and fat. Zealot/Archon is a strong army comp against Zerg in the mid-game if you can supplement it with some ranged damage. Corsairs fit well into that composition. Psi Storm is pretty much necessary in the current meta, mostly because of Hydralisks massing up and shooting down all your melee units before they can even close the distance. Archon/Zealot is fast though, so if you can manage to flank the Hydralisks you can kill them very effectively in a corner. But the simple answer is: Archons are tanky fighters. So if you see a need for that in your army, then get them. Try not to think of it as Psi Storm versus Archon. That is a flawed mentality since High Templar and Archons serve very different purposes.
you want archons behind your dragoons/reavers because archons are not that strong without zealot support, and you can't run zealots through a lurker field
yes swarm is good against goons that's why i specified that you want reavers against swarm
you need hts because otherwise your reavers/goons are just going to die to hydraling
how is deciding between hts and archons a flawed mentality. you can't just magic up more gas...
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On February 17 2018 01:13 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Newb question. How do you know when to get Psi Storm in PvT? And when do you skip getting it? Thanks.
generally you want to get storm a little after arbiters if you're running 1star arbs since your gas starts piling up after you slow down goon production
you can get away without storm if you're running 2star arbs but you probably want it lategame anyway
basically just get it whenever your gas starts piling up
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1. is it important to use HTs in shuttles at that point? or can u get away with not doing that?
2. in PvZ, after the templar archive finishes, how do you choose between making a HT right away or DT right away? what is standard?
3. In Pvz, I am not sure when to make and use DTs. does making DTs depend on what I scout and see? What exactly am I looking for? I sometimes feel like DTs are gimmicky and only work with drops or against bad players. most players seem prepared, but is there something I can do to still use them even if they are? If so, how?
4. In late game PvZ, what is the composition that beats Ultra ling? DT, zealot, and sair? I'm having trouble beating ultras even when I'm ahead. I sometimes just squeak by.
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On February 17 2018 16:19 Golgotha wrote:
1. is it important to use HTs in shuttles at that point? or can u get away with not doing that?
2. in PvZ, after the templar archive finishes, how do you choose between making a HT right away or DT right away? what is standard?
3. In Pvz, I am not sure when to make and use DTs. does making DTs depend on what I scout and see? What exactly am I looking for? I sometimes feel like DTs are gimmicky and only work with drops or against bad players. most players seem prepared, but is there something I can do to still use them even if they are? If so, how?
4. In late game PvZ, what is the composition that beats Ultra ling? DT, zealot, and sair? I'm having trouble beating ultras even when I'm ahead. I sometimes just squeak by.
My answers are by no means definitive, but:
1. Against a good Terran I imagine Shuttles are preferred because of EMP and because until you engage, your Templar will be free-roaming and could be sniped by cheap Vultures.
2. If you killed the Overlord outside of your natural, you can make a DT first to get rid of any Zerglings that are hanging out there, or to deny Hydralisk pressure. If you didn't kill the Overlord, there isn't much point in making DT. Your other Gateways should be finishing up around the same time as your Templar Archives, though, so you should be able to make both within a relatively narrow timeframe, from what I understand.
3. 4. I don't think DTs have a place as a combat unit in modern PvZ, except in rare situations. More often than not they just become overpriced Zealots. As you said, they are best used as a harass unit. I like to use them to hold ramps, or to patrol expansions to deny solitary Drone expansion attempts. The one situation in which I think that they can be useful is if you have good control and have established unquestionable air dominance with Corsair against Ultralisks because DTs do good damage against the heavily-armored Ultralisks. The problem is that once Zerg sees this composition, they can just make a round of pure Hydralisk and then you will lose your Corsair and/or DT very quickly, which is a lot of wasted gas. In general against Ultralisk, I think the key is to storm the Zerglings/Hydra without hitting your own Zealots, avoid fighting under Dark Swarm, having a healthy Archon count (don't walk around with 8 Templar thinking you'll be able to cast all 8+ storms in an engagement), and using Reaver + Shuttle for battles. Reavers are like DTs except they aren't a "gimmick" like DT because the presence of Overlords doesn't ruin their efficacy, and they are actually better against Ultra/Ling because they do more damage to Ultras and Scarabs do AoE, which kills any nearby Zerglings. Dragoons are also great against Ultralisks but you can't get too many because they get eaten by large amounts of Zerglings as well as the aforementioned Hydralisk switch.
Having trouble against Ultras is normal in PvZ. I think the best way to mitigate this issue is through prevention, i.e. harassing the mineral line and denying bases as long/as much as possible while pulling ahead yourself. By the time the first Ultralisk round comes out, if you already have a good splashtoss composition ready to handle it because you have stalled the Zerg, then you are in a much better position than when you go "Oh fuck, Ultras," and try to scramble some Archons/Reavers/Shuttles/etc. (which is what usually happens to me).
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Thanks man. I always learn a lot from ya. For PvZ, what is the robo facility upgrade order? Speed shuttle, scarab count, and then scarab damage?
edit: thanks Drone!
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Norway28784 Posts
definitely scarab damage before scarab count. pretty rare for you to need the scarab count tbh, but the damage upgrade makes a big difference. (for the splash damage)
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I've been trying to optimize a cheesy 2 rax into dropship build, conceptually, is it better to have an earlier drop and a later range, or delay my drop tech to ensure that my marines have range at the point of the drop? I can drop at 6:10 but i wont have range.
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I think earlier drop with later range would be better.
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In PvZ, I am starting to favor the zealot+archon (with a few HTs) style. I also have complete air control with sairs. I find this is much better than trying to make goons early on because goons with everything else is so gas intensive. and goons are slow as hell and suck against mass lings, hydras, and static. But when in the game is it good to make goons and how many ctrl groups do you need? having 2-3 like in PvT seems overkill. is it when the lurker fields are everywhere? but even if there are lurker fields, isn't it better to save the gas for a fast reaver instead of goon?
Perhaps if I see a lurker field, I will make a ctrl group of goons and clear it with them. Otherwise, it does not seem like a good idea to make more. Not sure how else I would use them since other units are more effective in the PvZ matchup. Please advise.
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EPT
