EPT
. Correction: 2003 Million Man March
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 343
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
. Correction: 2003 Million Man March | ||
|
gDPhantom
New Zealand162 Posts
On September 02 2017 15:05 AcMilan91 wrote: Some universal build ZvP ? I mean the most common one liquipedia has all the standard builds. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Base_Spire_into_5_Hatch_Hydra_(vs._Protoss) | ||
|
jaeboss
69 Posts
On September 03 2017 11:07 Alpha-NP- wrote: I admit I just have a hunch that Hallucinations are useful against mine fields but I'm not good enough to explain in detail when. Usually the problem with weak or sub-optimal strategies is not the idea itself, but rather the alternative that you are sacrificing. In this case, storm is a much stronger alternative that you are sacrificing. Hallucination only gives you 2 copies of the unit so consider that if you made 6 hallucinated zealots, which isn't enough to be effective imo, that is the equivalent of 4 storms that could potentially kill ~10-12 tanks and other units if clumped up. Furthermore, if you have a huge number of units attacking there is a high probability that your army will be EMP'ed which would completely shut down your strategy. The opponent wouldn't even have to know if they were real or hallucinated units. He's going to EMP a large number of units and if they are real then he effectively has removed all their shields. If they are hallucinated then they will disappear. | ||
|
Sero
United States692 Posts
| ||
|
shall_burn
252 Posts
| ||
|
Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
EDIT: Also, I'm trying to focus on just one or two builds per match-up to practice as I figure it would be more effective to become as good as I can at a couple of builds rather than just okay at many builds. With this in mind, I am curious what builds you guys would consider best to practice for each match-up... at this point, I'm focusing on: PvT: >2 Gate Range Expand into a standard mid-game >Bulldog bust >and spending just a little bit of time learning DT Drop (generally with proxy DT tech)... the reason I am throwing this build in the mix is that I am seemingly incapable of properly engaging a terran mech army. This is perhaps a whole other point entirely and I'm trying to figure it out, but I can get into a pretty strong position in the mid-game with a strong economy and plenty of units but when it comes time to engage I eat shit big time... PvZ >Forge FE into +1 sair/speedlots as my primary "standard" play for entering the later stages of the game >Forge FE into 4 gate/2 archon push as my more aggressive play PvP >3 gate robo (gate - robo - 2x gate - obs - reaver) >5 Zealot FE w/ cannons Even practicing these seven builds + my three maps has proven to be a fairly tall order, but i am making tangible progress... If it matters, I am a ~D+ level player with an APM ranging from 160-210 depending on how hard i'm playing. Thanks guys | ||
|
InDi
Spain90 Posts
PvT: - Maybe try mixing in the more usual 1 gate exp into robo into +2 gates, this is the most common build, but you absolutely need to get ur timings right or you can get destroyed by 2fac or even FD PvZ: - Try playing with Gate in exp openers, although I understand is probably the hardest BO early on. Else +1 Sairs/Speedlots is the way to go. You can start throwing in reavers as well, I would discard the 4 gate, since any medium lvl Z will simcity and your BO will fail completely. PvP: - I would suggest to focus on more standard openings, 1/2 gate robo into exp, so that you focus more on macro + harass. As I have posted already multiple times, my suggestion is that you improve on those BOs on single player, then when you feel comfortable you can jump into online paying attention to specific aspects of each game. For instance, harass in PvP, or arbiter control in PvT, or more general ones, like not missing pylons etc... | ||
|
Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
On September 05 2017 17:20 InDi wrote: I would suggest some changes to those BOs, but you should play with what you are more comfortable with, I also recommend practicing BOs in single mode until you completely manage them in terms of timings, if you are D+ I can bet that you will be doing some mistakes early on (pylons, probes, queuing...) so you can focus on that too. PvT: - Maybe try mixing in the more usual 1 gate exp into robo into +2 gates, this is the most common build, but you absolutely need to get ur timings right or you can get destroyed by 2fac or even FD PvZ: - Try playing with Gate in exp openers, although I understand is probably the hardest BO early on. Else +1 Sairs/Speedlots is the way to go. You can start throwing in reavers as well, I would discard the 4 gate, since any medium lvl Z will simcity and your BO will fail completely. PvP: - I would suggest to focus on more standard openings, 1/2 gate robo into exp, so that you focus more on macro + harass. As I have posted already multiple times, my suggestion is that you improve on those BOs on single player, then when you feel comfortable you can jump into online paying attention to specific aspects of each game. For instance, harass in PvP, or arbiter control in PvT, or more general ones, like not missing pylons etc... I appreciate the input, thanks man -- I will try narrowing my focus down to what you've mentioned (with occasional variation) in single player. I spent a couple of days strictly on single player going up to maybe the 10 minute mark, exiting and looking at the replay to check how i'm doing against the checkpoints I've marked in my builds. It has been very helpful i think, though it all kind of seems to go out the window when I'm playing a real match >.> its probably 50%+ psychological. | ||
|
Highgamer
1451 Posts
On September 05 2017 18:16 Immaterial wrote: [...] it all kind of seems to go out the window when I'm playing a real match >.> its probably 50%+ psychological. I wouldn't say it's psychological (unless you get really nervous, hands shaking e.g.), at least that's the lesser part of it. In a real game you face actual distractions that a) look different every time and have to be dealt with slightly differently and b) cost you actual time/apm that you would spend on macro in the single player (as there is no limit for optimization here, or the limit is very high, at least in the mid- to lategame when going for 3-4 bases). It's rather a learning process of another kind to condition yourself to minimize the attention you have to pay on those distractions while pulling through as much as possible with what you've practiced in the singleplayer. That because it's only natural for your brain to concentrate on something new/unfinished/interesting (or something along the lines of this explanation for the common "staring at battles" or microing "too much"). You'll find that you perform better whenever you manage to consciously distribute your own attention/apm, which generally means to actively spend more time macroing as there's so much to do. | ||
|
jaeboss
69 Posts
| ||
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
On September 03 2017 04:34 Jealous wrote: EMP is much more important to use on Arbiter/High Templar/clumped AFK army than it is to cast on moving Zealots which will trigger, drag, or at least reveal the mines anyway if they are genuine Zealots, and if they are Hallucinations then you still spent a valuable spell to keep your free units alive, and that is only assuming you hit all of them which is unlikely. It's simply a poor option in a very unlikely scenario. Templar energy is better spent on Storm and supply is better spent on actual army than the amount of Templar necessary to make any sizeable amount of Hallucinations; EMP are better spent on the aforementioned targets and the gas/supply of the Vessels you would need to match the opponents' proportionate Templar army is better spent on army of your own. This is D- theorycraft, like those threads not too long ago that explored "underused" units and combinations. I was thinking it out and I think Hallucinations are very good when you play the bulldog style and drop Hallucinates Zealots on Sieged Siege Tanks. Hallucinated units take double damage, so instead of 70 damage a Siege Tank does, it turns into 140 damage to whatever hallucinated unit it shoots. Splash damage is half that so if splash hits his own Siege Tank it will be 70 damage dealt to his own Tank instead or the normal 35 from regular Zealots. So you could say Hallucinated Zealot drops are twice as good to drop on Sieged Tanks compared to unhallucinated regular Zealots. I'd like to follow up with someone like Draco or Bonyth if there are any other viable instances they've seen where Hallucination might help. I'd say in a long game where you need to break Tank Lines, Hallucinatons are good to break Mine fields, and Hallucinations are even better to drop on Sieged Tanks. | ||
|
ArmadA[NaS]
United States347 Posts
| ||
|
jaeboss
69 Posts
On September 06 2017 05:36 f10eqq wrote: Wut... im 90 percent sure you cannot load hallucinations into a dropship. Can someone confirm this? Yes you can. On September 03 2017 02:26 Alpha-NP- wrote: Hallucinated units take double damage, so instead of 70 damage a Siege Tank does, it turns into 140 damage to whatever hallucinated unit it shoots. Splash damage is half that so if splash hits his own Siege Tank it will be 70 damage dealt to his own Tank instead or the normal 35 from regular Zealots. So you could say Hallucinated Zealot drops are twice as good to drop on Sieged Tanks compared to unhallucinated regular Zealots. Hallucinated units take double damage if hit directly, but splash from hallucinated units does not deal double damage. I just had a clan mate help me test this. Nice idea in theory, but I tried dropping a hallucinated zealot next to a tank and the splash damage did exactly the same as a regular zealot. On a side note, while testing this out I found out that splash damage will deal the full 70 damage from a sieged tank if close enough. | ||
|
Zealgoon
China187 Posts
| ||
|
ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On September 05 2017 07:14 Immaterial wrote: Sorry if this question has already been asked earlier in the thread, but out of the maps in the ladder map pool at the moment are there any in particular that favour protoss? At this point I've banned all but FS, Python and Circuit Breaker as those are the maps I'm most familiar with. EDIT: Also, I'm trying to focus on just one or two builds per match-up to practice as I figure it would be more effective to become as good as I can at a couple of builds rather than just okay at many builds. With this in mind, I am curious what builds you guys would consider best to practice for each match-up... at this point, I'm focusing on: PvT: >2 Gate Range Expand into a standard mid-game >Bulldog bust >and spending just a little bit of time learning DT Drop (generally with proxy DT tech)... the reason I am throwing this build in the mix is that I am seemingly incapable of properly engaging a terran mech army. This is perhaps a whole other point entirely and I'm trying to figure it out, but I can get into a pretty strong position in the mid-game with a strong economy and plenty of units but when it comes time to engage I eat shit big time... PvP >3 gate robo (gate - robo - 2x gate - obs - reaver) >5 Zealot FE w/ cannons Even practicing these seven builds + my three maps has proven to be a fairly tall order, but i am making tangible progress... If it matters, I am a ~D+ level player with an APM ranging from 160-210 depending on how hard i'm playing. Thanks guys I don't know about the maps, but i have some suggestions for you about your bos. In PvP the is much more standard to play 1 gate robo exp (with or without the shuttle), or 1g robo 1 more gate exp or harass. 3 gates are generally way too much, it means you are going for and all-in. The 5z fe is generally weak, as the standard 1gate river is really good vs it. In PvT don't go dt's! Almost never. You are not learning for it, you are just trying to grab a game. And you said that you are willing to learn and that you need PvT practice... I like to play PvT with early river. It can be used for harass and for defend. And if you can't harass and don't need to defend just keep the shuttle and the river alive, you will find the way to use it later in the game. This bo is good because you learn how to micro river and shuttle, witch is very important in PvP. You learn to harass, and to recognize if it is possible to do so. And you learn that even when you don't do damage with a unit it can be worth, because the opponent have build static defense, while your river is mobile. p.s. do not try " playing with Gate in exp openers". It is super mega hard on 99% of maps and you are not learning much from it. | ||
|
ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On September 02 2017 18:50 XsebT wrote: So, playing the ladder, I'm being forced into a lot of Protoss vs Random games, and I really am not sure how to do a solid opening. So far I've mostly been going 1gate with zealot zealot goon. This does give some options down the line, but it just feels a little volatile. So yeah, how should I open in PvR?  10/12? I play it as a PvP 1 gate, core, robo, river push. vs P and T you are ok vs Z you may have problems vs aggressive 9 poolers but 1z a 2 probes can hold most ramps. And the goon river push is really good because of it's early timing. | ||
|
Highgamer
1451 Posts
These are Reavers: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/KqsqGFe.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Gh2sQq0.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/VyQnMQs.jpg) Those are rivers: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/BBWl7UO.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AEej32y.jpg) Or is it an insider or commonplace of BW-communities that I don't get... | ||
|
ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On September 06 2017 18:48 Highgamer wrote: Sorry.. but I cannot withhold: The metal bug is called Reaver... These are Reavers: + Show Spoiler + Those are rivers: + Show Spoiler + Or is it an insider or commonplace of BW-communities that I don't get... you are 100% right I am left :p | ||
|
chocorush
694 Posts
On September 04 2017 04:41 shall_burn wrote: Hallucinating carriers or arbiters seems fine, as well as archons. I would note that hallucinated carriers don't build/launch interceptors (same goes for reavers). Arbiters are a solid choice if you're going to hallucinate *something*, especially in low econ games where you won't be able to replenish them easily. | ||
|
shall_burn
252 Posts
On September 07 2017 02:48 chocorush wrote: I would note that hallucinated carriers don't build/launch interceptors (same goes for reavers). Arbiters are a solid choice if you're going to hallucinate *something*, especially in low econ games where you won't be able to replenish them easily. Hallucinated reavers do shoot, but cannot buy scarabs (they copy the hangar of the original caterpillars). With carriers it's about having them sniped, instead of the real ones, or at least trying to have them in the front. Like cannon fodder for goliaths. As for arbiters.... I remember watching all the 3 hours of Dunaj vs Blackmaster in normal speed from the 20th minute of the game. Was glorious. | ||
| ||
