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United States11393 Posts
On May 03 2017 22:39 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 21:56 EMPaThy789 wrote:On May 03 2017 06:33 NasKe_ wrote:On April 30 2017 16:36 Jealous wrote:On April 30 2017 16:06 Jackafur wrote:
in PvT when is the right time to tech up to arbiter? I just started playing again (ive always been bad though) and I was always under the impression you should have like 3 bases before teching to arbiter. 2 Base Arbiter has been popular for a while. People get a handful of Dragoons (10-16 if I'm not mistaken) and then start going into Arbiter tech, Zealots with legs, and taking their 3rd base and sometimes quick 4th as well. It's okay to be behind Terran in expansions briefly during this time from my understanding. It's important to note that this all depends on what Terran is doing. There is no formulaic approach that I am aware of that says "against all builds, get Arbiter at x time." You have to have enough army not to die (Shuttle may help), but you shouldn't let Terran expand absolutely for free if you can help it either. This is a general rule. I have a similar question but much earlier in the matchup. I've seen Bisu going for 1-gate expand and then teching to obs right away, is he able to do that because he expects the Terran to also fast expand? I enjoy it because of the map control, allowing me to get a fast third, but sometimes I just die, I am not sure if I late with other gates, or if the fast tech drained my resources. 1 gate expand into obs + 2 more gateways is basically fool proof vs any terran opening provided you can micro vs a fd or 2 fact properly. The build is very tight with its units initially however and generally if you die, it would be due to miss micro. Top korean protosses have extremely good micro and also play on low ping vs other koreans; they are often able to hold the terran at their ramp with 3 dragoons until the terran has more than 1 tank. A reaver or dt drop before obs follow up after a expansion is possible and are legitimate builds but are more of something you mix in rather than something you do every game as the terran can just blind counter you otherwise (e.g. If the terran knows you are going to reaver or dt drop them every game after expansion, you have a rough time fast drops + a wraith to kill the shuttle). The fast tech to obs is the most standard as obs are needed to progress the macro game for protoss as otherwise you will be stuck vs mines. I am pretty sure Protoss will lose 90% of the time, if you go robo before a second gate vs a 2 fac opening, given similar skill level.
Fac cc fac wouldnt be fun to hold either.
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On May 04 2017 02:41 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2017 02:32 NasKe_ wrote:On May 03 2017 22:39 Cryoc wrote:On May 03 2017 21:56 EMPaThy789 wrote:On May 03 2017 06:33 NasKe_ wrote:On April 30 2017 16:36 Jealous wrote:On April 30 2017 16:06 Jackafur wrote:
in PvT when is the right time to tech up to arbiter? I just started playing again (ive always been bad though) and I was always under the impression you should have like 3 bases before teching to arbiter. 2 Base Arbiter has been popular for a while. People get a handful of Dragoons (10-16 if I'm not mistaken) and then start going into Arbiter tech, Zealots with legs, and taking their 3rd base and sometimes quick 4th as well. It's okay to be behind Terran in expansions briefly during this time from my understanding. It's important to note that this all depends on what Terran is doing. There is no formulaic approach that I am aware of that says "against all builds, get Arbiter at x time." You have to have enough army not to die (Shuttle may help), but you shouldn't let Terran expand absolutely for free if you can help it either. This is a general rule. I have a similar question but much earlier in the matchup. I've seen Bisu going for 1-gate expand and then teching to obs right away, is he able to do that because he expects the Terran to also fast expand? I enjoy it because of the map control, allowing me to get a fast third, but sometimes I just die, I am not sure if I late with other gates, or if the fast tech drained my resources. 1 gate expand into obs + 2 more gateways is basically fool proof vs any terran opening provided you can micro vs a fd or 2 fact properly. The build is very tight with its units initially however and generally if you die, it would be due to miss micro. Top korean protosses have extremely good micro and also play on low ping vs other koreans; they are often able to hold the terran at their ramp with 3 dragoons until the terran has more than 1 tank. A reaver or dt drop before obs follow up after a expansion is possible and are legitimate builds but are more of something you mix in rather than something you do every game as the terran can just blind counter you otherwise (e.g. If the terran knows you are going to reaver or dt drop them every game after expansion, you have a rough time fast drops + a wraith to kill the shuttle). The fast tech to obs is the most standard as obs are needed to progress the macro game for protoss as otherwise you will be stuck vs mines. I am pretty sure Protoss will lose 90% of the time, if you go robo before a second gate vs a 2 fac opening, given similar skill level. Is there anything I should keep an eye out for to scout the 2fac push? Early gas? Late exp? If you scouted no wall-in and T doesn't move out shortly after he should have his first tank, I would probably build a second gateway first. If there is a wall-in but he builds more than 1 marine, I would also do this. In these scenarios I think a 2 fac or some sort of 1 base play is very likely. Also if you can scout his main base and you see gas being mined constantly with 3 SCVs, the chances are also high for 1 base play. I am a Terran player and no Protoss but this is what I would look out for.
I agree with all of this but I would like to add that you should be familiar with when Terran usually move out based on how many/how far along your Dragoons are. Meaning, assuming Terran didn't fuck up too bad and neither did you, with X build you should have Y Dragoons by the time he tries to move down the ramp with a regular FD. If he does not within +/-15 ish seconds of this, it often means that he is doing something more aggressive.
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siege is probably the biggest indication of a non-2fact build
siege finishes a little before the 2nd tank in a siege FE
keep ur scouting probe alive as long as possible
poke with goons for marine count if necessary (but don't lose any or take too much damage)
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New player just switched over from SC2! Thanks for any help:
1. Is it 'fair play' in BW to be running a timer during the game? Either embedded as a kind of attachment to the game, or a stop-clock next to your computer? I see one on some people's streams, not on others...
2. With the 2Fac vulture pressure TvT build, it is recommended that you only build 1 Marine. (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Terran_vs._Terran_Guide). How does one defend if you scout 2 rax with incoming early Marine pressure from opponent (to arrive before vulture production is underway).
3. Is there a way to queue up the 'siege' command for tanks? Or must you siege them manually once they reach their destination.
4. When people talk about 2-Hatch & 3-Hatch zerg, is that referring to number of bases, or just hatcheries, as in 3-hatch could mean a zerg on 2 bases w/ 3 hatcheries (2 at main, 1 at natural).
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1. u can turn one on under options ingame
2. if u scout the 2rax u should be able to hold ramp with scv/marines while u build bunker or wait for vult (depending on how aggressive they are)
3. u have to siege manually
4. it's the number of hatcheries. 3hat will usually be on 2base, otherwise u can break the 3rd and/or force a ton of sunkens with your initial MM ball before mutas come out
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1. I guess with 1.18, it is now 100% fair play. Before that it didn't really matter if you used a timer outside from korean professional games.
2. Pull a lot of SCVs and defend at the ramp while you build a bunker and more marines.
3. You cannot queue up any command that is not an attack, patrol or move command. You have to siege them manually. Sieged tanks don't execute queued commands either, meaning you cannot queue up attack commands. You have to aim with them during every shot.
4. It refers to the number of hatcheries before Zerg takes a gas, in ZvT it is usually on 2 bases, in ZvP they take 3 bases.
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On May 04 2017 21:45 ihcob wrote:
New player just switched over from SC2! Thanks for any help:
1. Is it 'fair play' in BW to be running a timer during the game? Either embedded as a kind of attachment to the game, or a stop-clock next to your computer? I see one on some people's streams, not on others...
2. With the 2Fac vulture pressure TvT build, it is recommended that you only build 1 Marine. (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Terran_vs._Terran_Guide). How does one defend if you scout 2 rax with incoming early Marine pressure from opponent (to arrive before vulture production is underway).
3. Is there a way to queue up the 'siege' command for tanks? Or must you siege them manually once they reach their destination.
4. When people talk about 2-Hatch & 3-Hatch zerg, is that referring to number of bases, or just hatcheries, as in 3-hatch could mean a zerg on 2 bases w/ 3 hatcheries (2 at main, 1 at natural).
1. It was probably not allowed by KeSPA in the professional scene, but it is allowed, or at least not disallowed for online play including ladder. Not sure about online Korean tournaments but I know it isn't disallowed by any foreign online tournaments.
2. Making only 1 Marine is generally fine. If there is 2 Rax pressure, I guess use your SCVs and micro like crazy? Or build a bunker if you have time, and use SCVs to block the entrance.
3. You have to siege them manually. However, if you spam the siege button, you can have the siege up and unsiege immediately after without even shooting, which is generally terrible and you don't want that.
4. Just hatcheries. Especially in ZvT, Zerg often get 3 Hatcheries on 2 bases and then place their 4th Hatchery at a 3rd base.
EDIT: LOL.
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As Protoss, does shift clicking a mineral patch after you instruct a probe to build something make it go mine after the building has been put down?
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Norway28804 Posts
Yes. Works with scvs as well.
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Wow, never knew that after all these years. I guess I didn't expect BW to be that smart.
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In PvT, how many goons do I want to make early on against FD or a 2 fact push? When should I be putting down my nexus if I went 2gate > obs?
When should I feel safe to move out and contain with goons? How many zealots should I be mixing in? When is is safe to take my third and when should I add gates, and how many can I add on 2-3 base?
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goons vs fd: off 1gate 3~5 goons should be enough depending on ur micro and how aggressive the FD is
goons vs 2fact: until u can comfortably beat the terran 2fact or the T expos. if you 1gate FE you need to cut probes.
2gate obs expo timing: depends on terran bo. i'd probably cut goons after 5 or 7 and double expo versus a 1fact FE from terran, or bulldog them (allin with 3gate and shuttle)
contain with goons: early game you need to keep your goons at the T choke. unless they have vult speed you can just walk ur goons back to ur base anyway. you need goons outside the T base versus 2fact or fd so you can deal some damage as you micro back, otherwise you're gonna have a really hard time microing vs vult/tank in your nat
zealot count: zealots should be the core of your army vT once you get zealot speed. goons are worthless without zealots
3rd timing: depends on scouting info, but ASAP. depending on T build you may need to cut probes to get your gateway/unit count up (for ex versus 5/6 fact)
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On May 05 2017 02:17 Dead9 wrote:
goons vs fd: off 1gate 3~5 goons should be enough depending on ur micro and how aggressive the FD is
goons vs 2fact: until u can comfortably beat the terran 2fact or the T expos. if you 1gate FE you need to cut probes.
2gate obs expo timing: depends on terran bo. i'd probably cut goons after 5 or 7 and double expo versus a 1fact FE from terran, or bulldog them (allin with 3gate and shuttle)
contain with goons: early game you need to keep your goons at the T choke. unless they have vult speed you can just walk ur goons back to ur base anyway. you need goons outside the T base versus 2fact or fd so you can deal some damage as you micro back, otherwise you're gonna have a really hard time microing vs vult/tank in your nat
zealot count: zealots should be the core of your army vT once you get zealot speed. goons are worthless without zealots
3rd timing: depends on scouting info, but ASAP. depending on T build you may need to cut probes to get your gateway/unit count up (for ex versus 5/6 fact)
Thank you!
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On May 04 2017 23:08 Cryoc wrote:
1. I guess with 1.18, it is now 100% fair play. Before that it didn't really matter if you used a timer outside from korean professional games.
2. Pull a lot of SCVs and defend at the ramp while you build a bunker and more marines.
3. You cannot queue up any command that is not an attack, patrol or move command. You have to siege them manually. Sieged tanks don't execute queued commands either, meaning you cannot queue up attack commands. You have to aim with them during every shot.
4. It refers to the number of hatcheries before Zerg takes a gas, in ZvT it is usually on 2 bases, in ZvP they take 3 bases.
You can queue hold position, gather, return to cargo and repair as well. Basically, you can queue anything that is on the top two lines of the command card. I have a video about this in my series
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On May 05 2017 05:18 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2017 23:08 Cryoc wrote:
1. I guess with 1.18, it is now 100% fair play. Before that it didn't really matter if you used a timer outside from korean professional games.
2. Pull a lot of SCVs and defend at the ramp while you build a bunker and more marines.
3. You cannot queue up any command that is not an attack, patrol or move command. You have to siege them manually. Sieged tanks don't execute queued commands either, meaning you cannot queue up attack commands. You have to aim with them during every shot.
4. It refers to the number of hatcheries before Zerg takes a gas, in ZvT it is usually on 2 bases, in ZvP they take 3 bases. You can queue hold position, gather, return to cargo and repair as well. Basically, you can queue anything that is on the top two lines of the command card. I have a video about this in my series
Yeah, right. I should have probably just said, that you cannot queue abilities.
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when im playing ZvP with 5 hatch hydra/ling/lurker, i seem to die to+1 timings quite a bit. what is the strategy? is it just sunkens/scouting?
I have a hard time scouting it before it comes. Any tips appreciated.
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I looked for this but because the words are too vague I can't find an answer.
Unlike broodwar, when the Vespene gas geyser run out of gas, the probes still go inside the assimilator, and bring the green stuff to the Nexus?
Does that mean I have to click on the assimilator every time and check if is out of gas?
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Norway28804 Posts
On May 05 2017 08:42 broodwarisback wrote:
when im playing ZvP with 5 hatch hydra/ling/lurker, i seem to die to+1 timings quite a bit. what is the strategy? is it just sunkens/scouting?
I have a hard time scouting it before it comes. Any tips appreciated.
Perfecting your sim city is #1 on the list. I'm not any good at that myself, but when I do +1 attacks, zerg's building placement is largely what defines my success.
Aside from that, if you're not able to scout their base with a lord, the lack of corsairs is generally a surefire way of telling that a bunch of +1 zealots are gonna come. And just scouting with lings, make sure you have a ling outside their base at any given moment, if the scouting ling gets picked off, send a new. It's also much easier to hold if you take your second natural rather than a second natural. 
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Norway28804 Posts
On May 05 2017 08:45 NasKe_ wrote:
I looked for this but because the words are too vague I can't find an answer.
Unlike broodwar, when the Vespene gas geyser run out of gas, the probes still go inside the assimilator, and bring the green stuff to the Nexus?
Does that mean I have to click on the assimilator every time and check if is out of gas?
You get a decent understanding of when it happens after a while. But in general, at the point where your geysirs start being depleted, your mineral saturation is so good, and gas income increasingly important, that you want to keep mining even from the depleted geysirs. Unlike sc2 where you stop getting any gas when a geysir is depleted, in bw you still get 25% income, which is significant.
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They actually bring back 2 gas (instead of 8) when they are depleted, and there is a message in text when this happens. The geyser is also different visually (less gas coming out). So yeah, you don't really need to worry about moving workers, I mean progamers leave their workers there.
On May 05 2017 08:42 broodwarisback wrote:
when im playing ZvP with 5 hatch hydra/ling/lurker, i seem to die to+1 timings quite a bit. what is the strategy? is it just sunkens/scouting?
I have a hard time scouting it before it comes. Any tips appreciated.
You need to post replays, or at least mention your opening/ your opponent's opening. If you are planning 3 hatch spire->5 hatch hydra and P goes for +1 speedlot without stargate, you should change your opening and go for ZvT-esque 3 hatch lair play (muta or lurker), lair units should be ready as the +1 timing hits. You need some sunkens anyway,how many depends on how many gates he has and how aggressive you want to play. But all of these are assumptions, please post replays because it might be completely wrong
Edit: I forgot about the scouting part. Simply put, you need to be checking constantly the forge with lings, and send an overlord in his main.
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EPT
