EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 309
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Subflow
52 Posts
Obviously i played horribly, just learning the hotkeys... forgetting to put lazy workers to mine... but in the end i guess i somewhat undestand the basics of the game now... i even won 2 out of 5 games.. "1on1 noob" games obviously ^^ But heres my question: How many workers do i need to fully saturate my bases?? i guess its like 3 workers for one patch? but even then i cant really count all the workers... so is it more of a feeling of when there enough workers? other question: Sometimes workers pop out of my nexus in really weird angles... and then they move all around the corners of the nexus and sometimes even stuck there... is there a workaround for this , like placing a pylon in a special position? | ||
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
iirc, in sc2, having the perfect worker count was easier (because it was displayed... in BW, it's hard enough at first to build too many workers at all...), so people coming from that game are actually a little more fixiated on that, but there were also some things working against over-producing them at all - or rather there were clear downsides of having more than a set 'perfect' worker-count: a) because you always had macro mechanics to quickly harvest more/produce more workers(MULEs, ChronoBoost, larva-inject) b) because the 3rd base was taken very quickly oftentimes in most matchups, but then c) you wouldn't take more bases than 3 most of the time, because 70 workers on 3 bases mine (almost) as fast as 70 workers on 4 bases - and building more workers would limit your army-count too much In BW on the other hand, it's not always set in stone what worker-count is sufficient. a) you don't have these macro-mechanics, so you try to build the additional workers earlier if you can. Adding to this, b) in many matchups in BW that are perfectly balanced, one race stays on 2 bases a little longer before they take the 3rd base (e.g. Terran in TvP), so you do have the time to over-produce workers before you take the 3rd. Finally, c) in BW, the way harvesting works, mining with, let's say, 50 workers spread on 3 bases is considerably more efficient than 50 workers on 2 bases, even though the latter is an optimal worker-count for 2 bases. The reason, I think, is that worker-pathing is not so smart. The calculation for the 'next-empty-mineral-patch' doesn't work as smooth as in SC2 (if such a calculation exists at all (?)). Also, in some matchups, you deliberately take more than 3 bases quite often and stay on 4-5 bases for a while (PvT, TvT...), so it's actually useful to have 70-80 workers ready to go, and to keep them for a longer period of time, AND it doesn't get into conflict with your supply-count as much as it did in SC2 (iirc), because some key-units don't take as much supply in BW (e.g. tanks). c) is the main point, I guess.... | ||
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Jealous
10312 Posts
EDIT: Also, there is a player who is looking for a rep pack from modern high-level Z, like 2016/2017 era. I've looked around and have only found stuff from long ago in zimp's thread. Can anyone link me some? | ||
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
On April 24 2017 10:24 LetaBot wrote: When you scout an early pool as a terran, what would a safe build be if you assume the zerg is going for a fast muta/lurker transition (as in, a build that wont put you much behind if zerg goes for something else) I'd like to read some answers, too (Cryoc?). I think you need to add a bit more information for a precise answer. Are you talking about 9pool/overpool/12pool? with natural hatch or without (aka "wtf man...")? with lings (and how many) or without? The thing about Zerg is that they can do so many different things in ZvT, they have to kinda, good Zergs will strike you with mindgames galore. Maybe there are some go-to-builds for Terran, but they can all be soft-countered by using the flexibility of larva-mechanic well... All these will require different reactions. Most important thing in the long run is to learn to keep scouting with an SCV constantly and read his build/transition/plan. If it' s a 9 pool with the usual 6+ lings, you def your ramp and build CC on highground. Go for 2rax, gas, acad or gas-acad-2nd rax (?)+ Show Spoiler + I think this is up to you, one gives you faster medic/firebat, but smaller push, the other gives you a bit later push with more rines If it's the "wtf man..." thing, I guess stay on one base and get academy asap, keep scouting, but probably it will be lurker, so get tanks. But by what you wrote, I assume you mean some kind of pool before natural-hatch into quick lair. You can take your natural and defend in this situation, because you can defend anything from 2hatch narrowly and be ahead or at least even. That said, 2 hatch hits strong, so it's still a 50:50 situation vs even opponents. You keep scouting, mostly to see how many lings he builds. He'll probably ling-chase you out or get a sunken, meaning you cannot scout without scan. You take your natural safely, with or without bunker depending on ling-timing and -amount (but asap, with 0-1 marine if possible, no bunker/no delay if not needed), go for gas/academy fast, maybe on 1rax, and go for 2 rax total at first. If you're sure there are no lings at all but no sunken(s), go force some with your handful of marines. Get scan asap and start an engineering bay. Scan and react with turrets against muta and bunker/factory against lurker. Keep scouting for that 3rd unless you can tell what he's doing by scanning him. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
It is very important to know, if Zerg took the gas or not as speedlings are much more threatening when you go down the ramp. Versus 9 pool gas: For a safe defense, block your ramp with 5 SCVs and let them hold position with your marine. You should be able to see, if Z expands shortly after his lings are out or if he goes lair on 1 base. In case of 1 base lair it is safer to immediately go for 2nd rax and gas instead of expanding, as lurkers come very fast and it is hard to hold your nat (still possible but you should go academy on 1 rax in this case). Versus 9 pool/overpool: Block with 5 SCVs and go CC on high ground with 2 rax academy ebay. Usually you can use the timing window he needs to chase down your scout with his lings to build a bunker on the low ground for a safe natural. Versus 12 pool/gas/hatch: While with the other openings Z usually builds at least 6-8 lings, 12 pool can also be a very fast tech build instead and Z might only build 2 lings. You should be watching at how many lings are being produced, if you see only 2, just proceed with continue with a normal 1 rax cc with 2 marines directly on the low ground. I usually go 2 rax academy ebay vs this build, too, but it is not exactly safe because your scans don't finish fast enough to see the tech choice in time. So either you scout the tech with your scout or preemptively start building turrets in your mineral lines. More knowledgable people maybe know when you would have to cut scvs to get your tech up in time. Otherwise I would suggest 1 rax cc, gas, academy, ebay, 2nd rax instead to get info fast enough. Versus lurkers, get at least 2 bunkers (better 3) in your natural. Cutting scvs for a short time to get the factory and 2nd gas quick proved to be useful in the last couple of games I ran into this. Versus mutas, I think the most common follow-up after you build turrets is to get a 3rd rax and then tech. You should scan his nat and main and a possible 3rd base location repeatedly to see if he goes allin on muta so that you can add more turrets in this case. | ||
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Jackafur
United States116 Posts
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Jealous
10312 Posts
On April 30 2017 16:06 Jackafur wrote: in PvT when is the right time to tech up to arbiter? I just started playing again (ive always been bad though) and I was always under the impression you should have like 3 bases before teching to arbiter. 2 Base Arbiter has been popular for a while. People get a handful of Dragoons (10-16 if I'm not mistaken) and then start going into Arbiter tech, Zealots with legs, and taking their 3rd base and sometimes quick 4th as well. It's okay to be behind Terran in expansions briefly during this time from my understanding. It's important to note that this all depends on what Terran is doing. There is no formulaic approach that I am aware of that says "against all builds, get Arbiter at x time." You have to have enough army not to die (Shuttle may help), but you shouldn't let Terran expand absolutely for free if you can help it either. This is a general rule. | ||
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NasKe_
Brazil570 Posts
On April 30 2017 16:36 Jealous wrote: 2 Base Arbiter has been popular for a while. People get a handful of Dragoons (10-16 if I'm not mistaken) and then start going into Arbiter tech, Zealots with legs, and taking their 3rd base and sometimes quick 4th as well. It's okay to be behind Terran in expansions briefly during this time from my understanding. It's important to note that this all depends on what Terran is doing. There is no formulaic approach that I am aware of that says "against all builds, get Arbiter at x time." You have to have enough army not to die (Shuttle may help), but you shouldn't let Terran expand absolutely for free if you can help it either. This is a general rule. I have a similar question but much earlier in the matchup. I've seen Bisu going for 1-gate expand and then teching to obs right away, is he able to do that because he expects the Terran to also fast expand? I enjoy it because of the map control, allowing me to get a fast third, but sometimes I just die, I am not sure if I late with other gates, or if the fast tech drained my resources. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
as long as the T is FEing you should be able to hold with 1 gate range you need to get your obs to scout the terran's fact count asap | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
On May 03 2017 06:33 NasKe_ wrote: I have a similar question but much earlier in the matchup. I've seen Bisu going for 1-gate expand and then teching to obs right away, is he able to do that because he expects the Terran to also fast expand? I enjoy it because of the map control, allowing me to get a fast third, but sometimes I just die, I am not sure if I late with other gates, or if the fast tech drained my resources. fast tech? teching to obs isnt fast tech, as im assuming you are talking about getting obs before arbiter/reaver/dt/carrier tech (which is standard). its absolutely necessary to get obs asap after youve gotten your first expo. you need information quick and the obs serves a lot of purposes as to how you react to the terran. you need to be in a position to stop contains, you need to know how many facts terran is going, how many machine shops and armories terran is going (and whether they are running), whether terran is planning on getting a 3rd asap etc. depending on what you see you can use the obs to control the map and either go for a macro game and play in reaction to terran or try for a timing push. the only problem with this is terran also sees what youre doing, which is why pvt tends to just become a macro game. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On April 22 2017 07:12 Subflow wrote: coming from Sc2 (wc3 before), i played my first games of Broodwar today with protoss: I had a blast!! Obviously i played horribly, just learning the hotkeys... forgetting to put lazy workers to mine... but in the end i guess i somewhat undestand the basics of the game now... i even won 2 out of 5 games.. "1on1 noob" games obviously ^^ But heres my question: How many workers do i need to fully saturate my bases?? i guess its like 3 workers for one patch? but even then i cant really count all the workers... so is it more of a feeling of when there enough workers? other question: Sometimes workers pop out of my nexus in really weird angles... and then they move all around the corners of the nexus and sometimes even stuck there... is there a workaround for this , like placing a pylon in a special position? If there are eight mineral patches, then you need 24 workers, since 8 * 3 = 24. This means that if your workers are spread out evenly, then boxing half of the area in front of the minerals should select 12 workers. 12 is half of 24, so if you do this and you select 12 (the full unit array with no empty slots), then you have fully saturated the base. Most maps these days have 9 mineral patches, which means that this method is not exact. But it's close enough, and it's what I did and I got to A+ on ICCup. Also, you can over saturate and transfer them over once you take a new base anyway. | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
On May 03 2017 06:33 NasKe_ wrote: I have a similar question but much earlier in the matchup. I've seen Bisu going for 1-gate expand and then teching to obs right away, is he able to do that because he expects the Terran to also fast expand? I enjoy it because of the map control, allowing me to get a fast third, but sometimes I just die, I am not sure if I late with other gates, or if the fast tech drained my resources. 1 gate expand into obs + 2 more gateways is basically fool proof vs any terran opening provided you can micro vs a fd or 2 fact properly. The build is very tight with its units initially however and generally if you die, it would be due to miss micro. Top korean protosses have extremely good micro and also play on low ping vs other koreans; they are often able to hold the terran at their ramp with 3 dragoons until the terran has more than 1 tank. A reaver or dt drop before obs follow up after a expansion is possible and are legitimate builds but are more of something you mix in rather than something you do every game as the terran can just blind counter you otherwise (e.g. If the terran knows you are going to reaver or dt drop them every game after expansion, you have a rough time fast drops + a wraith to kill the shuttle). The fast tech to obs is the most standard as obs are needed to progress the macro game for protoss as otherwise you will be stuck vs mines. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On May 03 2017 21:56 EMPaThy789 wrote: 1 gate expand into obs + 2 more gateways is basically fool proof vs any terran opening provided you can micro vs a fd or 2 fact properly. The build is very tight with its units initially however and generally if you die, it would be due to miss micro. Top korean protosses have extremely good micro and also play on low ping vs other koreans; they are often able to hold the terran at their ramp with 3 dragoons until the terran has more than 1 tank. A reaver or dt drop before obs follow up after a expansion is possible and are legitimate builds but are more of something you mix in rather than something you do every game as the terran can just blind counter you otherwise (e.g. If the terran knows you are going to reaver or dt drop them every game after expansion, you have a rough time fast drops + a wraith to kill the shuttle). The fast tech to obs is the most standard as obs are needed to progress the macro game for protoss as otherwise you will be stuck vs mines. I am pretty sure Protoss will lose 90% of the time, if you go robo before a second gate vs a 2 fac opening, given similar skill level. | ||
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NasKe_
Brazil570 Posts
On May 03 2017 22:39 Cryoc wrote: I am pretty sure Protoss will lose 90% of the time, if you go robo before a second gate vs a 2 fac opening, given similar skill level. Is there anything I should keep an eye out for to scout the 2fac push? Early gas? Late exp? | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On May 04 2017 02:32 NasKe_ wrote: Is there anything I should keep an eye out for to scout the 2fac push? Early gas? Late exp? If you scouted no wall-in and T doesn't move out shortly after he should have his first tank, I would probably build a second gateway first. If there is a wall-in but he builds more than 1 marine, I would also do this. In these scenarios I think a 2 fac or some sort of 1 base play is very likely. Also if you can scout his main base and you see gas being mined constantly with 3 SCVs, the chances are also high for 1 base play. I am a Terran player and no Protoss but this is what I would look out for. | ||
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