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On May 05 2017 09:17 ortseam wrote:They actually bring back 2 gas (instead of 8) when they are depleted, and there is a message in text when this happens. The geyser is also different visually (less gas coming out). So yeah, you don't really need to worry about moving workers, I mean progamers leave their workers there. Show nested quote +On May 05 2017 08:42 broodwarisback wrote:
when im playing ZvP with 5 hatch hydra/ling/lurker, i seem to die to+1 timings quite a bit. what is the strategy? is it just sunkens/scouting?
I have a hard time scouting it before it comes. Any tips appreciated. You need to post replays, or at least mention your opening/ your opponent's opening. If you are planning 3 hatch spire->5 hatch hydra and P goes for +1 speedlot without stargate, you should change your opening and go for ZvT-esque 3 hatch lair play (muta or lurker), lair units should be ready as the +1 timing hits. You need some sunkens anyway,how many depends on how many gates he has and how aggressive you want to play. But all of these are assumptions, please post replays because it might be completely wrong
Thanks guys. Every day I play BW I learn something new.
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On May 03 2017 22:39 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 21:56 EMPaThy789 wrote:On May 03 2017 06:33 NasKe_ wrote:On April 30 2017 16:36 Jealous wrote:On April 30 2017 16:06 Jackafur wrote:
in PvT when is the right time to tech up to arbiter? I just started playing again (ive always been bad though) and I was always under the impression you should have like 3 bases before teching to arbiter. 2 Base Arbiter has been popular for a while. People get a handful of Dragoons (10-16 if I'm not mistaken) and then start going into Arbiter tech, Zealots with legs, and taking their 3rd base and sometimes quick 4th as well. It's okay to be behind Terran in expansions briefly during this time from my understanding. It's important to note that this all depends on what Terran is doing. There is no formulaic approach that I am aware of that says "against all builds, get Arbiter at x time." You have to have enough army not to die (Shuttle may help), but you shouldn't let Terran expand absolutely for free if you can help it either. This is a general rule. I have a similar question but much earlier in the matchup. I've seen Bisu going for 1-gate expand and then teching to obs right away, is he able to do that because he expects the Terran to also fast expand? I enjoy it because of the map control, allowing me to get a fast third, but sometimes I just die, I am not sure if I late with other gates, or if the fast tech drained my resources. 1 gate expand into obs + 2 more gateways is basically fool proof vs any terran opening provided you can micro vs a fd or 2 fact properly. The build is very tight with its units initially however and generally if you die, it would be due to miss micro. Top korean protosses have extremely good micro and also play on low ping vs other koreans; they are often able to hold the terran at their ramp with 3 dragoons until the terran has more than 1 tank. A reaver or dt drop before obs follow up after a expansion is possible and are legitimate builds but are more of something you mix in rather than something you do every game as the terran can just blind counter you otherwise (e.g. If the terran knows you are going to reaver or dt drop them every game after expansion, you have a rough time fast drops + a wraith to kill the shuttle). The fast tech to obs is the most standard as obs are needed to progress the macro game for protoss as otherwise you will be stuck vs mines. I am pretty sure Protoss will lose 90% of the time, if you go robo before a second gate vs a 2 fac opening, given similar skill level.
Its definitely not a simple hold but I've seen korean protosses hold 2 fact no problem with robo then 2 more gates.
Best does the exact build and holds a 2 fact (joyo) vs sea. He pulls probes and adds a shield battery.
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Hi everyone - I notice that on the Siege Expand TvP build it shows the first barracks & refinery both on 12 supply (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Siege_Expand_(vs._Protoss)), whereas TvT 2Fac Pressure it shows barracks & refinery on 11 supply (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Terran_vs._Terran_Guide), is there any reason for this subtle difference? Cheers for any guidance.
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11/11 cuts an scv but your first factory finishes a bit faster (i think 5 to 10 seconds). you can do the same in tvp with an aggressive build
12/12 is more economic and doesnt cut any scvs. with siege fe you dont really need your units asap anyway (unless youre getting 10/15gated on longinus or something)
10/10 is also viable if you want a really strong initial push
as a tip if u start gas 2~3 seconds after rax u reach 100 gas as rax finishes
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On May 06 2017 00:04 ihcob wrote:
Hi everyone - I notice that on the Siege Expand TvP build it shows the first barracks & refinery both on 12 supply (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Siege_Expand_(vs._Protoss)), whereas TvT 2Fac Pressure it shows barracks & refinery on 11 supply (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Terran_vs._Terran_Guide), is there any reason for this subtle difference? Cheers for any guidance.
If you take a closer look at the builds, you will see that you cannot build a marine with a 12/12 opening without delaying your factory or getting severely supply blocked. Therefore 12/12 is more suitable if you wall-in in TvP, so early game pressure doesn't kill you. 11/11 cuts some scvs but you get marines right away and your fac is earlier. In TvT walling doesn't work as well in stopping cheese, so 11/11 is probably the more played variant.
And please check your links before you post, I have to manually correct them to access the sites.
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On May 06 2017 00:04 ihcob wrote:
Hi everyone - I notice that on the Siege Expand TvP build it shows the first barracks & refinery both on 12 supply (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Siege_Expand_(vs._Protoss)), whereas TvT 2Fac Pressure it shows barracks & refinery on 11 supply (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Terran_vs._Terran_Guide), is there any reason for this subtle difference? Cheers for any guidance.
In this early phase of the build-order, this is actually a huge difference, not a subtle one. Especially taking the gas earlier means that you take 2 SCVs off the mineral-mining earlier, that's like 1/4 of your mineral-income at that point. And overall, with the super-tight timings of BW, 10-20 seconds can mean a lot (like: having three vultures against two for only a few seconds sounds like a good idea to break through)
The 12 supply variation just fits well with the defensive setup of the siege-expand and the early 2nd CC. (You would also use it for a 1Factory-Expand in TvT for that reason).
With siege-expo in TvP, you generally wall off, so you're very safe, thus you can delay your factory a bit more - resulting in a bit more mining time and an optimal worker-production throughout. You want to have 400 minerals quickly after starting your factory, so that you can have your CC up and floating to the natural as soon as your 2nd tank finishes. Your first tank will come out just in time to ward off any goon pressure, and siegemode and 2nd tank will line up nicely with grabbing your natural (unless you're getting lots of pressure from Protoss).
The 11 supply variation on the other hand goes well with any pressure build that relies mainly on factory-units.
Earlier gas means earlier factories, basically. Also, in TvT, even if you don't wall, you won't need constant marine-production early on to be safe, so you will be able to build factory and 2nd supplydepot in time without cutting SCVs (I think). But the early factory-unit-production will result in your CC getting started much later.
Maybe I forgot some details, but I think that's about it.
edit: answers galore lel
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What is the most practical way to manage your Nexus and probe production? Currently I have my first Nexus on 4 and then my 2nd and 3rd with F2 and F3 using F4 for rally points. Should I be putting my 2nd and 3rd Nexus on 1-0 key? I know personal preference has a lot to do with hotkeys, but didn't know if there was a common standard.
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The way you're doing it is perfectly standard. It has the advantage of helping you get used to Fkeys so you can quickly transfer probes and defend against drops. Keep in mind your hotkeys don't have to be static- you can change f2 to your gateways lategame to help with macro in PvT to help with macro for example.
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What upgrades are good mid game in PvT?
I like the observer speed because it helps me clean mines around the map, the vision upgrade is pretty small tho.
Shuttle speed is nice, but if I am not dropping Reavers I belive is too expansive.
The Attack upgrade I know is a must, but after that should I go armor or shield?
And should I tech for Arbiter before going for Storm? Is the Khaydarin Core and Khaydarin Amulet worth it? It's hard to notice if players are going for those upgrades when I am watching.
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goon range and zeal speed are probably the most important, stasis/recall as well if you're going arbs (or carrier capacity with carriers obviously). ground weapons are good too, air weps are important if you go carriers
armor/shield are pretty useless in pvt, if you have extra money you can go armor > shield but it doesn't do much
obs speed is nice so u can amove but its not really necessary
yeah shuttle speed usually isn't worth it if you're not going reavers.
arbs are generally better than storm. energy upgrades are worth it but they're not important
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A few TvT questions...
1) In TvT, how do you gauge how many tanks unsieged are needed to break a sieged tank line? This situation seems to occur frequently if one player fast expands, and the other went fact first and opts for some sort of siege contain but can't match the expanding players tank production.
2) In 1 rax expand, how do you scout and react to 2 port wraith? It seems like the other terran can wall off and do anything from 1 base vulture drop to a 2 fact tank push to 2 port wraith, and it feels very difficult to scout it and react appropriately.
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I'd be interested in answers, too. My thoughts are:
1) It's very relative to what other units you have and he has to support the tanks. I don't have an exact number tho, all I know is that it quickly gets out of control if he has to many tanks, so you want to break asap when it's still calculable, pulling some SCVs if you need.
If he only has 1-2 siegetanks then you can break with the same amount if you lead the attack cleverly with a few SCVs of yours that soak the first siege-shots. Even if he has a few more tanks, as long you have some SCVs or vultures to soak up the first shots and to close in on the tanks, you can break with the same amount of tanks or just 1-2 more. Tanks have more DPS against single targets when they are unsieged, and it's relatively easy to kill sieged tanks in low numbers if you can get in range with SCVs.
If he already has more than 3-4 tanks and you can't double his count, better try to gain a vision-advantage, inch your tanks forward (they should have siege by now) and snipe his forward tanks. You don't always have to fully break, sometimes creating a passage is enough, or to go straight for dropships to shuttle out some units.
2) If you get a lucky first or second scout, the best sign for 2port wraiths is the constant gas mining with three SCVs after his factory has started to build. It might also mean 2 factories, but if you don't gain any more information, you still want to prepare against 2port, too. A lack of ground-units is a sign for 2port, too, or at least port-play (drops), so send a vulture or an SCVs out to his natural to see if he has built ground-units at all. Over time you will learn to sniff it out if the usual ground-based pushes are not coming on time.
If you don't have any information, you prepare for 2port wraith by starting your armory shortly after your 2nd factory (in my 1fact-expo-build it's at 28 supply, I guess with 1rax-expo it's a little different) and your academy shortly after. This will give you the time to build 1-2 goliaths and scans before he has more than 1-2 wraiths.
It's important to not panic if 1-2 or even more wraiths show up, they can't do much and you have a better economy. So let him shoot some SCVs, keep building SCVs, make sure that armory and academy finish, add an engineering bay if more wraiths are coming.
Don't forget to restart tank production after the first couple of goliaths, because you want to abuse his lack of ground-units soon. Don't push out too early though and not without sufficient detection (scans and turrets) or the wraiths will get you in the open - and scan if he switched into drops before you push, if he did so, don't over-extend too quickly, but keep enough tanks unsieged and close to your main and natural to react quickly.
If more and more wraiths are being build, add a few turrets in vital spots in your base, and keep advancing towards him or towards your 3rd on the ground. If he spends gas on wraiths then he can only have so and so many siege-tanks to defend, and wraiths cannot win against enough goliaths head-on. Don't get vulture-busted tho.
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In PvT, when you have to micro your first 4 goons to stop/slow down this first push with few marines and a tank (FD?), how do you micro your goons at this? I mean this slow retreat to your own base, shooting some marines with range.
Do you click back, hold position, let them shoot and then move back again (that is how it says on liquipedia)? Or do you click attack on the ground behind your goons (and then move again)? Or even in direction of the enemy forces?
Edit: Thank you!
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hold position
if you a-move back the ones not in range will just walk back
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Also, if you use hold position you don't have the risk of getting your goons stuck.
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The key is to make sure the goons are already in range to shoot at the the marines. If you press hold just outside of the dragoons range and the marines walk forward and come into range, the goons will derp a bit then try to shoot and desync the shots. When you tell the dragoon to move again, the desynced dragoons can sort of stumble and glitch out, which can cause them to take tank shots or block the other goons and cause them to take tank hits. You basically want the 4 dragoons to all have something in range to fire at when you press hold so they all fire at the same time and can move again at the same time.
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What's a good way to defend expansion in the midgame in TvZ? Is it just keeping a mobile army in the center of the map?
Feels like I keep losing to early-hive tech Z's (even if I apply pressure and switch to mech) because they can send a few lings to an expo with or without a defiler, or camp ramp with lurkers, and I can't refortify.
Is this just a matter of "git gud / play faster" so I can mine up the map better and group bio separately or is there something specifically I should be doing?
(Thanks in advance for help.)
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it's mostly scouting. for example if you push out at the hive timing you want to throw scvs toward possible flank paths so you don't get your nat ravaged.
if you have a 3rd you need to keep a small mnm force nearby to delay for your main army. if you're going mech you need mines and/or vults everywhere to scout out Z army movement.
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Thanks. I typically push out after FE with my initial 1rax rines to apply pressure and keep it rotating around the map, then push out again when I have about 2-3 tanks and 1 science vessel while pumping 5rax, and at this time I typically expo twice and switch to mech while I'm putting pressure. Usually the units rallied to my nat are enough to defend that so that's never an issue, but I can never keep my 3rd/4th bases up. Maybe I'll just play on lower eco until I'm faster or better at scouting.
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3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra help.
just coming back to the game, im looking for a really noob friendly guide. i looked at the guide at liquidpedia but i really need one with drone times and exactly where to play hatcheries.
if someone can hook me up with some replays, i can just write down the b/o's from that. will give you hugs and kisses for help <3
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EPT
