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On April 05 2017 04:10 ortseam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2017 10:52 B-royal wrote:
2. I don't think Light got an academy at all during the game and thus no comsat stations. What if effort had build some lurkers? Would he just respond with an academy? Or would he wait until he gets his first vessel out?
4. You only get irradiate when you can afford it (either by securing third gas, or because you produced a couple of cycles of vultures)? 2-> I think it wouldn't be efficient to use 100+50+150+225=525 gas just for detection, so comsats would be better ( considering Light's build with mass factories not intending to get starport for a long time). Generally vessel/irradiate only makes sense if you are going for late game (aka turtle mech), these mid game push builds get mostly tank/goliath, while if you play defensively you don't need as many due to defensive advantage+turrets.
Thanks.
Also what should you do in case the zerg goes for a 3 hatch lurker build? There's no real way to tell it's coming unless you manage to get an SCV in their main somehow. But if he has a sunken or blocks ramp with drone/zergling(s) you're basically completely in the dark.
I'm thinking that if you get completely surprised by lurkers, you'll have to hope your bunker/turret/goliaths can stall him at the natural until you get that academy up together with siege mode/tanks.
If it gets ugly as in you're forced to lift off your natural and pull scvs, I think you'll have to get 2 comsats (make one in main with the 2nd cc), get tanks, start investing into vultures speed/mines so when you eventually break out you can start mining up the place and possibly do some harassment back.
Does that sound about right?
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How accurate is the in game timer in the 1.18 PTR? In comparison to time stamps used for builds in the liquid wiki. For example, it says that for a typical 2 hatch muta, mutas will pop around 6:30. So I'm wondering if I can use the new timer as a reference for this.
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Has anyone else noticed mouse speed being slower on PTR? I have my mouse settings set to the max, and the cursor will fly across the screen if I move it in 1.16.1, but in 1.18, it feels like it's crawling.
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From what I've seen it's good enough so you can use it freely+ Show Spoiler +2 hatch muta is 6.00 though
Edit: That was for faustian
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Once your first medics arrive, by the time you reach his base stim should be finished
Here's an example of liquipedia article that shows how bad/outdated it is. The first few stages of the build are completely dependent on scout, but there's no mention of it. You only make the second supply if you don't scout first (otherwise just skip and make a cc with the scv that finishes the rax, which allows you to skip the supply at 23/26 because your cc will finish in time giving you 10 supply. You can do the supply on first scout anyway, but it's uncommon. Also, even if you don't scout first, I've never seen a pro do a 20cc. It's usually 17 or 18 (after 1 or 2 marines).
The biggest downfall of the build is not explained, which is that you won't have range when mutas/lurkers are out, and you are also skipping e-bay, so your upgrades are going to be bad/non-existant.
In the section about counters it says it's 'hard-countered' by 4 pool... how? 4 pool is countered by just having scvs... In general, a good player will be able to ignore all those things and just get the idea, but as a resource for noobs it's a recipe for bad habits.
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On April 06 2017 08:07 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:Once your first medics arrive, by the time you reach his base stim should be finished Here's an example of liquipedia article that shows how bad/outdated it is. The first few stages of the build are completely dependent on scout, but there's no mention of it. You only make the second supply if you don't scout first (otherwise just skip and make a cc with the scv that finishes the rax, which allows you to skip the supply at 23/26 because your cc will finish in time giving you 10 supply. You can do the supply on first scout anyway, but it's uncommon. Also, even if you don't scout first, I've never seen a pro do a 20cc. It's usually 17 or 18 (after 1 or 2 marines). The biggest downfall of the build is not explained, which is that you won't have range when mutas/lurkers are out, and you are also skipping e-bay, so your upgrades are going to be bad/non-existant. In the section about counters it says it's 'hard-countered' by 4 pool... how? 4 pool is countered by just having scvs... In general, a good player will be able to ignore all those things and just get the idea, but as a resource for noobs it's a recipe for bad habits.
Yeah I can see how there are a lot of nuances that aren't mentioned. I've been using it as a learning point to practice executing a build and macro. But without a time stamp for what time your medics should arrive, I'm having trouble gauging my progress.
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I think you're gonna have a hard time finding any sort of benchmarks for this build. The best you can do is stopwatch yourself to see if you're making progress
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Here's a rep of me freestyling the build
http://bwreplays.com/h16o5
It seems like medics come about 5m55 to 6m. I got blocked for 3-4 seconds somewhere. It's probably a good idea to continue making scvs from your nat only instead of cutting from both ccs because the opponent may catch up on that. I simulated a second scout so it's a 17cc with the double scout going back
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I've read a lot about how going by the liquipedia builds probably isn't a good idea as a complete beginner, but all the same I'm really looking for some form of a really standard opener for each MU (TvZ, TvT, TvP) and preferably some form of write up on it. Either just supply benchmarks or more complete ones with different timings to look out for and the adaptions that are required.
Are there any resources like that around?
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Norway28804 Posts
I think liquipedia builds are good for complete beginners. If anything they struggle with being slightly outdated and imperfect, but that's really not a big issue for a complete beginner.
Like this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/1_Rax_FE_(vs._Zerg)
If you understand and implement everything in that article into your play, that's a really solid point of departure. I definitely don't know of any better, more comprehensive resource.
I dunno if the tvt and tvp sections are equally good, but http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/TVPBuilds, there's a lot of stuff in there. The fact is, as a complete beginner, your execution is gonna hinder you far more than bad build orders will, at least if you use these ones. 
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On April 07 2017 04:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:I think liquipedia builds are good for complete beginners. If anything they struggle with being slightly outdated and imperfect, but that's really not a big issue for a complete beginner. Like this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/1_Rax_FE_(vs._Zerg)If you understand and implement everything in that article into your play, that's a really solid point of departure. I definitely don't know of any better, more comprehensive resource. I dunno if the tvt and tvp sections are equally good, but http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/TVPBuilds, there's a lot of stuff in there. The fact is, as a complete beginner, your execution is gonna hinder you far more than bad build orders will, at least if you use these ones.
Yeah, I figured that as well, but I thought that if I was gonna start massing games to improve those mechanics, I might as well try to do it with some relevant builds. I'll check out that one for TvZ at least.
I feel a bit spoiled from SC2, all the vods feel like they had more readily available supply info onscreen and for a lot of the nonkorean tours you probably had complete reps of everything as well. A lot of the BW PL vods I've watched only show resources/supply at certain points in the game.
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I remember, when I played SC2 (prob 5 or more years ago by now), if a new build came out, you HAD to learn that because everything else would lose against it. (I remember 4-gates or "pull the boys"-builds etc.) Dunno if it was like this in the end, too, but:
In BW, this is absolutely not the case - until you get to the level of ex-progamers (that is: never).
If you pick a build from 2012, 2010, 2008... even some earlier builds (e.g. siege-expand), and practice your mechanics with that build, you can probably get A+ on Iccup or at least get a really high rank if your mechanics and understanding of the game get good enough.
And with those mechanics, they'll make the game feel so smooth (sometimes...), you can learn a up-to-date build in a day.
TvZ: 1Rax FE
TvP: FakeDouble/FE
TvT: 1Fact Expand
If you like it economically, all you need really... or just any other build you find a sufficient guide and amount of replays/vods on.
If you stumble across a build but can't find a good guide, ask here for replays or Vods. Studying the builds played by a pro in action is probably the best way to learn it, and yes, in BW that means to study from Vods, often even not-first-person.
If you have some time, I recommend checking out lots of games from your favorite player in the BW-section of the TeamLiquidProgamingDatabase/TLPD. Gives you the chills watching those games from pre-2012, and they only play perfectly designed builds there.
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On April 07 2017 04:18 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2017 04:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:I think liquipedia builds are good for complete beginners. If anything they struggle with being slightly outdated and imperfect, but that's really not a big issue for a complete beginner. Like this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/1_Rax_FE_(vs._Zerg)If you understand and implement everything in that article into your play, that's a really solid point of departure. I definitely don't know of any better, more comprehensive resource. I dunno if the tvt and tvp sections are equally good, but http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/TVPBuilds, there's a lot of stuff in there. The fact is, as a complete beginner, your execution is gonna hinder you far more than bad build orders will, at least if you use these ones. Yeah, I figured that as well, but I thought that if I was gonna start massing games to improve those mechanics, I might as well try to do it with some relevant builds. I'll check out that one for TvZ at least. I feel a bit spoiled from SC2, all the vods feel like they had more readily available supply info onscreen and for a lot of the nonkorean tours you probably had complete reps of everything as well. A lot of the BW PL vods I've watched only show resources/supply at certain points in the game.
You can go to zimp's replay thread and get a lot of pro replays to analyze, which will have all the info etc. In fact, if you're looking to learn std builds I'd recommend you do that and write down the builds they're using. It's not very hard to find std games (rax fe vs zerg, fake double vs protoss and any non-cheese build vs terran). I understand if you don't wanna do that since it's a lot of work but these are your choices at the moment
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On April 06 2017 08:45 faustian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2017 08:07 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:Once your first medics arrive, by the time you reach his base stim should be finished Here's an example of liquipedia article that shows how bad/outdated it is. The first few stages of the build are completely dependent on scout, but there's no mention of it. You only make the second supply if you don't scout first (otherwise just skip and make a cc with the scv that finishes the rax, which allows you to skip the supply at 23/26 because your cc will finish in time giving you 10 supply. You can do the supply on first scout anyway, but it's uncommon. Also, even if you don't scout first, I've never seen a pro do a 20cc. It's usually 17 or 18 (after 1 or 2 marines). The biggest downfall of the build is not explained, which is that you won't have range when mutas/lurkers are out, and you are also skipping e-bay, so your upgrades are going to be bad/non-existant. In the section about counters it says it's 'hard-countered' by 4 pool... how? 4 pool is countered by just having scvs... In general, a good player will be able to ignore all those things and just get the idea, but as a resource for noobs it's a recipe for bad habits. Yeah I can see how there are a lot of nuances that aren't mentioned. I've been using it as a learning point to practice executing a build and macro. But without a time stamp for what time your medics should arrive, I'm having trouble gauging my progress.
You can try this build instead. It is slightly different, but has most of the info, you are looking for. I noticed the replay doesn't work anymore, so here is the new link: http://bwreplays.com/7f4mt
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I lost to carriers in PvP. Somehow, nothing helped. Corsairs, archons, everything died quickly and goons bugged out. What's the best anti carrier strategy?
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Norway28804 Posts
honestly, dark archons are legitimately awesome vs carriers. (mind control) stasis is also good, then you can stasis them and position your goons underneath them before it wears off.
goons do decently out in the open, storm deals quite some damage against them, but if there are 10+ carriers and ledges or ridges, he's just gonna outmicro you. It IS possible to force carriers to back off if you have a lot of storm though - even if he microes and pulls back after each attack, each storm is usually gonna do like 40+ damage to the carrier fleet. So if you have 5 templars with 2 storms each, that can ward them off, but this is more of a defense until you get a proper counter going than a real counter. Scouts fare well if you have a lot of them and air upgrades, but just building a couple as a panic response dose nothing. Corsairs don't work because carriers have such high base armor, archons don't work because they don't get to fight the carrier.
If you see him transition into carriers at an early point, you can legitimately make like 6 dark archons together with your goon+templar force, attack him so you force the battle, and mind control 6 carriers. If you don't really notice until he has 6+ carriers, you'll be better off transitioning into arbiter and stasising, with storm to defend in the mean time. If he gets to 8+ carriers without you noticing and only having goons to defend, that kinda fucks you.
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On April 05 2017 08:02 ninazerg wrote:
Has anyone else noticed mouse speed being slower on PTR? I have my mouse settings set to the max, and the cursor will fly across the screen if I move it in 1.16.1, but in 1.18, it feels like it's crawling.
the max mouse speed in PTR is painfully slow. thankfully, I can increase the sensitivity with my mouse.
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On April 08 2017 05:46 duplex__ wrote:
I lost to carriers in PvP. Somehow, nothing helped. Corsairs, archons, everything died quickly and goons bugged out. What's the best anti carrier strategy?
Goon + storm kills carriers, unless it's a map that has shitload of cliffs with tight ramps. This is why you rarely see carriers on PvP.
MC can work too, same with scouts, but problem with these are that building many of these is not useful vs anything else.
I would not encourage going multiple dark archons and mind control unless it is split map situation and you're suspecting that map will be mined out and the win goes to whoever uses minerals more cost effectively. Then you can start mind controlling shuttles and feedbacking any spellcasters too. Dark archons is a huge resource investment while high templars are mineral cheap and carriers are bad investment vs good amount of storms.
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Anyone know of any good zerg twitch streams? Doesn't need to be pro-level; just anything better than my trash-tier BW skillz.
All the afreeca streams lag too much for me to watch 
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EPT
