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On May 04 2013 01:28 therockmanxx wrote:
Is there any stadistic of which is the most succesful Opening in every match up?
Don't think it would make much sense. At what level?
I can assure you that some openings are great when you are called Leta and damn terrible if you are a low level player. The reverse is also true...
And it depends if a counter has been found. Some openings were great for a while with extraordinary stats and then became hard countered by a good counter build...
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Medic drop with blind and cloaked wraith probably has a 100% winrate. Can't do much better than that !
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On May 07 2013 22:20 corumjhaelen wrote:
Medic drop with blind and cloaked wraith probably has a 100% winrate. Can't do much better than that !
I'm pretty sure a lot of wannabe Boxer tried it and got utterly raped.
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On May 07 2013 22:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 22:20 corumjhaelen wrote:
Medic drop with blind and cloaked wraith probably has a 100% winrate. Can't do much better than that ! I'm pretty sure a lot of wannabe Boxer tried it and got utterly raped.
In progames ?
Edit : that being said, I need to watch more vods to be sure. But honestly, it was silly even for Boxer, and on a silly map. Can't think anyone else tried it on a televised match.
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Bisutopia19398 Posts
On May 07 2013 22:37 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 22:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 07 2013 22:20 corumjhaelen wrote:
Medic drop with blind and cloaked wraith probably has a 100% winrate. Can't do much better than that ! I'm pretty sure a lot of wannabe Boxer tried it and got utterly raped. In progames ? Edit : that being said, I need to watch more vods to be sure. But honestly, it was silly even for Boxer, and on a silly map. Can't think anyone else tried it on a televised match.
better post that vod here so I can dissect it please 
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On May 08 2013 14:25 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 22:37 corumjhaelen wrote:On May 07 2013 22:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 07 2013 22:20 corumjhaelen wrote:
Medic drop with blind and cloaked wraith probably has a 100% winrate. Can't do much better than that ! I'm pretty sure a lot of wannabe Boxer tried it and got utterly raped. In progames ? Edit : that being said, I need to watch more vods to be sure. But honestly, it was silly even for Boxer, and on a silly map. Can't think anyone else tried it on a televised match. better post that vod here so I can dissect it please
It's this game :
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/5908_BoxeR_vs_JinSu/main
No idea where you can find the VOD if you haven't downloaded the MSL torrent :/
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Couple quick questions,
1.) What are standard TvZ openings (besides 1 Rax FE)
2.) Who wins in 5/4 pool vs 8 Rax or bunker rush
3.) How does 1 Rax FE deal with a 5/4 pool?
4.) So in 2v2s I've finally been able to hold off their double 5 pool with the advice you guys gave me, now they target my friend, how does Protoss deal with double 5/4 pool? I told him 9/9 gate but he said it still doesn't work...
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On May 09 2013 06:59 traceurling wrote:
Couple quick questions,
1.) What are standard TvZ openings (besides 1 Rax FE)
2.) Who wins in 5/4 pool vs 8 Rax or bunker rush
3.) How does 1 Rax FE deal with a 5/4 pool?
4.) So in 2v2s I've finally been able to hold off their double 5 pool with the advice you guys gave me, now they target my friend, how does Protoss deal with double 5/4 pool? I told him 9/9 gate but he said it still doesn't work...
1. 1 Fact fe (into fast vessel, vulture drop, vult runby, perhaps some other weird things) 8 rax, 14 cc, 2 port
2. 8 rax has a huge advantage if it is not proxied.
3. Build a bunker at your main, dont expand right away. From their you will usually want to go 2 rax acad off of one base. I usually proxy a fact and a port though. Try to keep a scout alive in their base to see whether they are amassing lings or droning.
4. No idea. Good micro?
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1. i think 1rax fe is by far the most standard build. there are plenty of viable builds though, like puppeykiller listed above
2. yeah non-proxy 8rax has a huge advantage
3. 1rax fe against 4/5 pool just hold your ramp for a couple seconds while your bunker goes up. vod below
+ Show Spoiler +
4. with a standard 10gate the zealot pops around when the 4pool arrives, so he should be able to plug the ramp with his zealot and a bunch of probes until the next batch of zealots is out
alternately just open gate/forge -> tech, it's a lot easier to play and probably a better build than 2gate for TP v ZZ
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iloveoov has a very interesting TvP style I want to use.
How did iloveoov get away without siege exspanding on this map? He made a single vulture and somehow that kept the power gooning protoss away from his natural.
iloveoov transiting into the mid game struggled to stay alive when protoss was in his natural. It almost looks like if there was to be an all-in from protoss they would just win as iloveoov's army is split all around the map because of the dropship.
Does he make more than one drop ship? When I watched it didn't seem like it.
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he gets away with it because the protoss wasn't going power goons. it was nexus first vs mine expand. i only saw 1 dropship too.
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On May 09 2013 06:59 traceurling wrote:
Couple quick questions,
1.) What are standard TvZ openings (besides 1 Rax FE)
2.) Who wins in 5/4 pool vs 8 Rax or bunker rush
3.) How does 1 Rax FE deal with a 5/4 pool?
4.) So in 2v2s I've finally been able to hold off their double 5 pool with the advice you guys gave me, now they target my friend, how does Protoss deal with double 5/4 pool? I told him 9/9 gate but he said it still doesn't work...
1. i'd add 1fact 1port expand vult drop into bio or mech if you can make lingproof wall. it's pretty much standard by now.
2. zerg, since 8rax is proxied forward 99% of the time
3. if you scout first you can hold ramp with lots of SCV, then you can float your expansion CC, but why rax FE vs 5pool? just bunker in main and go 2rax acad into win
4. i'm not competent
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On May 09 2013 06:59 traceurling wrote:
Couple quick questions,
1.) What are standard TvZ openings (besides 1 Rax FE)
I feel like some people misunderstand what "standard" is. I'm not saying you do, but many players have their own style, for example: One player might decide to get their second depot at 14, then get the CC at 22 food, whereas another player might skip the depot, make only one marine and get the CC at 17 food. Both of these are "1rax FE". The opening, "1rax FE" is basically a build order that says "How to get a command center". 14CC is the same idea, except you get your barracks after you get the command center.
Getting the command center first can lead to a huge variety of builds and strategies, such as:
- The Terran takes their gas after the CC, then immediately gets an engineering bay to research +1 ranged attack. They follow this up by getting a slightly later academy, and adding on four more barracks for a total of five. This allows them to have a huge bunch of units with good upgrades to fight off mutalisks, and even lurkers. Because the Zerg typically won't have +1 carapace until after lurkers, the Terran player's upgrade advantage and sheer number of units will smother any offense the Zerg can field, and allows the Terran to put a lot of pressure on the Zerg.
- The Terran player can get a second barracks and add on gas. Then they build their academy and once stim packs finish, they add on two more barracks and cut SCV production. This is a timing attack designed to break through the Zerg defense before mutalisks come out.
- Any number of barracks can be added before the Terran starts their factory, but if it's only one barracks, that typically (but not always) indicates mech play is coming. In this scenario, the Terran begins building factories instead of barracks to build an army. Variations of this play are when the Terran gets vultures and perhaps a wraith, but then begins adding barracks to begin building infantry. This play is a "switch", designed to catch the Zerg with a poor army composition. The Terran can also tech to starport and armory quickly while making barracks to get a marine/medic/valkyrie force.
The Terran player can also employ a monstrous variety of 1-base openings. The objective of these types of build orders are to harass/hurt/kill the Zerg player, then take an expansion while the Zerg is preoccupied with defending. One base build are often very reliant on hitting the Zerg at a specific timing, and can leave the Terran player very far behind in terms of production and economy power if they fail to meet their objective.
Here are a few variations that you might see:
- gas/rax into factory, then starport + mines, then vulture drop into expand
- gas/rax into factory, barracks + siege mode then early infantry/tank push
- double rax/gas, then academy + third rax, sunken bust
- gas/rax, then factory, then two starports producing wraiths
- wraith build into bio push/sunken bust
- wraith build into dropship
- wraith build into mech play
- gas/rax into factory, then second factory + vulture speed, then vulture run-by
- gas/rax into factory, then two more factories into 1-base mech play
- gas/rax into goliath drop
- gas/rax into nuclear missile silo rush
2.) Who wins in 5/4 pool vs 8 Rax or bunker rush
You can't really bunker rush, because there's no hatchery to attack, but typically, if you go 8-rax, and you scout a 5pool, you can defend it quite easily. Even an 11 rax can defend a 5pool with just a bunker and some SCV micro. Going 5pool against Terran is pretty bad unless you're a psychic and know they're going to go 14CC.
3.) How does 1 Rax FE deal with a 5/4 pool?
Not well. For all those ridiculous early Zergling attacks, going for a CC is kind of suicidal, especially if you decide to make only 1 marine. The timing of the Zerg attack will come at a time when the CC isn't even close to being done, so just cancel it, then defend the in your main. Next, go 2 rax + gas and go kill them. If they turtle, expand. If they get like, lurker tech or something, they will be very very low on money, so you just need to be patient and defensive until you have enough units to push out and kill them.
4.) So in 2v2s I've finally been able to hold off their double 5 pool with the advice you guys gave me, now they target my friend, how does Protoss deal with double 5/4 pool? I told him 9/9 gate but he said it still doesn't work...
It's really rare to see a double 5pool, but a double 9pool is pretty common, and also, really tough to defend as Protoss if you try to go 10/12 gate. You either need to be Zerg and help them with Zerglings, or they need to get a forge and make some cannons. I'm talking like gate/forge or even the legendary forge/gate build.
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On May 10 2013 00:03 1409981553 wrote:iloveoov has a very interesting TvP style I want to use. + Show Spoiler +How did iloveoov get away without siege exspanding on this map? He made a single vulture and somehow that kept the power gooning protoss away from his natural. iloveoov transiting into the mid game struggled to stay alive when protoss was in his natural. It almost looks like if there was to be an all-in from protoss they would just win as iloveoov's army is split all around the map because of the dropship. Does he make more than one drop ship? When I watched it didn't seem like it.
Daezang's expansion was quite early, so he didn't have units yet. When your opponent is being greedy, a very viable option is to be aggressive or be even more greedy. Oov saw that his opponent had no units, and therefore, he wouldn't need to worry about taking an expansion, so he did. Additionally, because the Protoss expanded so quickly, Oov also knew that Daezang's tech would be quite delayed, allowing Oov to simply get spider mines first and not have to worry about observers.
Oov's first drop did very little damage and allowed Daezang to backstab him repeatedly. Oov committed a lot of resources to the harass and very little to defense, and it very nearly cost him the game. His saving grace was the fact that his opponent did not scout Oov's third command center for a very long time, and the tank drop near that Xel'Naga temple that destroyed Daezang's nexus. That kind of thing should never happen, that is, losing a nexus to a single tank, but alas.
So, should you try to emulate this style? In my opinion, you could, but I don't recommend it. If the Protoss does any kind of play that does not involve a 12 nexus or 1 gate into nexus, you will probably die a very quick death.
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In ZvT if I'm going 3 hatch muta and scout my opponent going mech, when should I build my hydra den? I don't want to delay my mutas too much but if I put down the den too late I'll just die to 2 port wraith.
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I know it's a stupid question but how do I counter 1 hatch lurker as Terran?
Whenever I face a 1 base Zerg I usually don't know what to do since I usually go 2nd depot-> Command Center if I didn't scout hatchery in my first location. I s it better if I stay on 1 base by bunkering my ramp with turrets or should I bunker up my natural choke with turrets and land my cc? I also don't know whether going bio or mech is better for punishing the 1 hatch lurker build after I fended off the first wave of lurkers with tanks+bunkers. An early academy is always needed vs 1 hatch lurker but I need tanks as well that's why I'm confused whether I should go bio or mech transition.
Thanks!
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it doesn't matter as long as you get bunker(s) up
if you can get a bunker up on the low ground throw up a couple more and take your nat, otherwise just hold your ramp until you can take your nat with your first medic+firebat. once you get your first vessel (or even earlier if you're not afraid of hold lurkers) you should be able to roll over the zerg
if you ever scout a 1base zerg just throw down a million bunkers/turrets and you pretty much win
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On May 10 2013 11:41 Zealgoon wrote:
In ZvT if I'm going 3 hatch muta and scout my opponent going mech, when should I build my hydra den? I don't want to delay my mutas too much but if I put down the den too late I'll just die to 2 port wraith.
vs 1 rax gas opening u can go 3 hatch lair first then hydra den, make many hydras when hydra den finishes.
hydras should be in time for wraith.
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On May 10 2013 16:05 ppshchik wrote:
I know it's a stupid question but how do I counter 1 hatch lurker as Terran?
Whenever I face a 1 base Zerg I usually don't know what to do since I usually go 2nd depot-> Command Center if I didn't scout hatchery in my first location. I s it better if I stay on 1 base by bunkering my ramp with turrets or should I bunker up my natural choke with turrets and land my cc? I also don't know whether going bio or mech is better for punishing the 1 hatch lurker build after I fended off the first wave of lurkers with tanks+bunkers. An early academy is always needed vs 1 hatch lurker but I need tanks as well that's why I'm confused whether I should go bio or mech transition.
Thanks!
If you ever see a zerg going for 1 hatch lurker you can go 2 rax academy and stall the lurkers. the standard 1 hatch lurkers is an attack with 4 lurkers and a few zerglings.
The battle should occur near your natural, and attacking the 1 basing zerg is always a bad idea because he will sneak the lurkers into the main. So just keep stiming and moving back to your ramp , moving up the ramp is a terrible idea for zerg, but if you want you can make 1 bunker to be safe.
If zerg is moving with only 2 lurkers consider a slow lurker drop is on the way. after dealing with that threat, transition to 1 base m&m, tanks and vessel push to punish the poor zerg economy.
Also keep in mind that if the zerg butchers his units a counter attack will kill him since he has no defense at all.
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On May 10 2013 19:34 UPro-BW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 16:05 ppshchik wrote:
I know it's a stupid question but how do I counter 1 hatch lurker as Terran?
Whenever I face a 1 base Zerg I usually don't know what to do since I usually go 2nd depot-> Command Center if I didn't scout hatchery in my first location. I s it better if I stay on 1 base by bunkering my ramp with turrets or should I bunker up my natural choke with turrets and land my cc? I also don't know whether going bio or mech is better for punishing the 1 hatch lurker build after I fended off the first wave of lurkers with tanks+bunkers. An early academy is always needed vs 1 hatch lurker but I need tanks as well that's why I'm confused whether I should go bio or mech transition.
Thanks! If you ever see a zerg going for 1 hatch lurker you can go 2 rax academy and stall the lurkers. the standard 1 hatch lurkers is an attack with 4 lurkers and a few zerglings. The battle should occur near your natural, and attacking the 1 basing zerg is always a bad idea because he will sneak the lurkers into the main. So just keep stiming and moving back to your ramp , moving up the ramp is a terrible idea for zerg, but if you want you can make 1 bunker to be safe. If zerg is moving with only 2 lurkers consider a slow lurker drop is on the way. after dealing with that threat, transition to 1 base m&m, tanks and vessel push to punish the poor zerg economy. Also keep in mind that if the zerg butchers his units a counter attack will kill him since he has no defense at all.
Thanks a lot for the answer, what I don't get is the timing of 1 hatch lurker will I be able to intercept his lurker in the middle of the map with stim if I went 2nd rax->gas->academy. Going bio when he's containing my natural always sounds dangerous to me.
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EPT
