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On November 26 2012 08:04 quirinus wrote:
Valks rape cors in every sense, more damage, more health, more armor. The only things is cors shoot faster.
The corsairs have three things going for them. 1st is that their shots never miss, where some of the halo rockets will not do damage to anything. Second is that corsairs do not have diminished splash. Every valk that is hit will take 3 damage, but corsairs that are hit will take either 100%, 50% or 25% damage depending on how close they are to the explosion. Third is that corsairs are medium so they take 50% damage from explosive attacks (after shields are gone, as they take full damage and don't get the benefit of the 1 native armor).
I actually think that the corsairs win because of that and the shape of the two forces if they are just a-moving.
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10387 Posts
^I think that's a good point. I wonder how much stacked vs not-that-stacked vs spread-out would affect the result
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On November 25 2012 16:47 ArvickHero wrote:
12 sairs vs 12 valks, which one wins? both just a-move, are fairly stacked, same upgrades.
I made a test map to see; valks win. Not even close.
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On November 26 2012 17:51 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 16:47 ArvickHero wrote:
12 sairs vs 12 valks, which one wins? both just a-move, are fairly stacked, same upgrades. I made a test map to see; valks win. Not even close.
Use your fancy xpslit to show us xP jk don't think anything can beat valks in the air...
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The only thing corsairs have going for them - the valks sprite limit. Over 8-10 valks, their dmg output drops significantly because of it, so 8 valks vs 12 cors the valks win most of the time, but 16 valks vs 24 corsairs is a lot closer. 12 vs 12 is just a rape. Valks cost more supply and resources, but are more effective than corsairs vs most air targes except scourge. Also valks kill devourers cost for cost while corsairs dont.
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it's not the sprite limit, it's nearly impossible to hit the sprite limit in a 1v1
the corsair projectile hits instantly, so when you have a ton of them of them they simply do more damage up front and kill the valks before they get enough rockets out
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On November 28 2012 07:55 Dead9 wrote:
it's not the sprite limit, it's nearly impossible to hit the sprite limit in a 1v1
the corsair projectile hits instantly, so when you have a ton of them of them they simply do more damage up front and kill the valks before they get enough rockets out
Test it man. Order 8 valk to shoot to an allied BC(to avoid shields and hp regen of Z and P units) for 1 cycle of volleys. Write the dmg dealt. Then test 1 valk. You will see all 8 valks shot all of their shots. Then test 12 valks. 12 valks will not do 12 times the dmg of 1 valk. Also spam stop command once you see all the valks start to shoot so you avoid overlapping shots when more than 8 valks are being tested(like 2-3 valks start to shoot a little later than the rest when testing more than 8 because of the before mentioned sprite limit), since it does not stop their attack once they begin firing the 1st cycle of volleys.
More than 12 will have even more non fired shots and will constantly overlap and queue shots. The only benefit will be more HP and less cooldown since when the sprite limit permits a valk will start shooting, while when you use 8 or 10 max they will suffer the cooldown, since they all shoot their shot simultaneously.
If the sprite limit didnt hamper valks they would be uncontested in the air. I mean 2 full groups would annihilate everything with one shot pretty much. More than 2 groups would be ...
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wow it looks like it hits the cap faster than expected
it looks like it reaches the limit around 10~14 valks
the sprite limit is 1700, and each valkyrie projectile takes 6 (i think) sprites, so each round should take 12 sprites and each volley should take 48. idk why it stops so early, i thought it would take at least 20~30 valks
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I told you  . I've done extensive tests(and i do mean extensive) in 2006 about valkyries because i liked them from my noob days and everybody was giving them shit, while i knew they rape hard pretty much everything and was so annoyed with the fact they don't shoot all their missiles in longer games, not to mention in team games where i've seen that out of 24 valks only 2-3 shoot and they didn't even finish their whole volley  .
I learned something too Dead9 (lol almost called you Day9 ). I didn't know what the sprite limit is nor what amount of sprites each valk takes to shoot the entire volley - how did you find that info about sprite limitation and how much sprites each unit generates? According to your calculations more than 8-10 should be able to fire in a normal game ( i presume the 10-14 valks you tested was in a game with not much anything else so the valks had more free sprites ?), and why they are not able is beyond me. Maybe someone else should shed some light on the intricacies of the BW engine and mechanics ?
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i did a bit of mapmaking, there used to be some pretty good resources on staredit.net, but since they reworked their site i have no idea where any of it went
a sprite is pretty much just an image, you can tell missile trails are sprites because they don't move with the rocket
so each missile is 1 sprite, and each cloud behind it is 1 sprite; i think it's 6 total per valk rocket but to be honest i have no idea
there's some weird stuff like tanks/goliaths are two sprites (one for the turret, one for the feet), but in general each unit is 1 sprite and each projectile is 1 sprite
another thing that's weird is that reaver scarabs and goliath rockets take a million sprites as well but they don't seem to have issues firing. it might be because they don't fire as much or something though
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Yeah goliaths with Charon Boosters have the same animation of rockets as valks and ive seen like 6-7 groups of gols fire at a million interceptors, yet absolutely no loss of shots. Im starting to think that game designers deliberately hampered valks because in large numbers they would be unbeatable (unless vs corsair/devourer combo also in large numbers, but still valk/devoured will still beat it pretty handily considering no sprite limit bulshit). Maybe they should have made the diminishing return system of more valks in the game not so steep - like at aleast 18 of them will fire no matter what.
But now as the game is, in very large numbers Corsairs are the ultimate air to air force. Ive seen 4 groups of carriers vs a respective corsair fleet(on BGH or money maps of course) cost for cost get absolutely manhandled especially when you order the sairs to attack ground and kill interceptors . Its so visually stimulating to see just an immense bright pulse of energy and shields blinking all the time and interceptors dieing like nothing even if there are like 384 of them and are constantly being rebuild. Like you said in your post there seems to be more than pure sprite limitation for the valks to behave like they do.
Some people say its not possible to hit the limit in a 1v1 game but in long games i've played and i've split the map and made my half arbiter proof, the toss switches to cars, and im expecting this way before he even start to switch and make +1 or +2 air attack before hand. But i dont make more than 6-7 valks because even at that number they are still heavily affected. I use an interesting strategy with them to fight cars and slowly but surely whittle them down no matter how many there are. Of course i also use turrets and alot of gols. If i find the replays and if anyone is interested i'll post them.
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Thank for that link. But its strange to see that valks have only 20% less sprite limit allocated to them, yet still reach it very quickly. If each rocket generates 1 weapons sprite then 1 valks fires 8 rockets so 1 valk generates 8 weapon sprites. Then the max amount of valks shooting with 80 valk weapons sprite limit will be 10 excluding all other factors.
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Hello ^_^
i've just played a retarded game against a Terran, i was ahead (i think), he started to turtle with siege tanks and then i didn't know what to do! Plz someone just tell me like what units use in this case, when expand, simple tips :p
ty :d
here is the rep :http://www.2shared.com/file/RxWuG2SN/0231_UnmoiQhoteZ_impotentnT.html
PS: i lost.
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On December 01 2012 08:02 Iway wrote:Hello ^_^ i've just played a retarded game against a Terran, i was ahead (i think), he started to turtle with siege tanks and then i didn't know what to do! Plz someone just tell me like what units use in this case, when expand, simple tips :p ty :d here is the rep :http://www.2shared.com/file/RxWuG2SN/0231_UnmoiQhoteZ_impotentnT.html PS: i lost.
If all he's doing is turtling take every base on the map
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On December 01 2012 08:02 Iway wrote:Hello ^_^ i've just played a retarded game against a Terran, i was ahead (i think), he started to turtle with siege tanks and then i didn't know what to do! Plz someone just tell me like what units use in this case, when expand, simple tips :p ty :d here is the rep :http://www.2shared.com/file/RxWuG2SN/0231_UnmoiQhoteZ_impotentnT.html PS: i lost.
Turtle = expand everywhere tech like crazy get awesome Eco then break his base by throwing ahit at it as Zerg go mass lings and defilers and if you want add queens as Terran use either bcs or your own tanks as Protoss use arbiter plus your army
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What is a good resource for simple BOs for a beginner terran player that are atleast somewhat up to date?
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Definitely Liquipedia. Pick the race you play, or browse through them if you're interested in multiple, and look at the BOs for each and check 'em out and play 'em.
Something that might seem a bit nerdy, but effective, is writing down the build order on a piece of paper. Then, go in a game, and try to utilize that BO by playing and looking at the paper and trying to get a solid memory of that BO. Of course, it's good to do this against a friend or so, so that you won't end up getting cheesed or anything against some random player on iCCup.
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is iCCUP down? when is it coming back up????
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EPT
