EPTProtoss BOs and Strategies: PvZ Land
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
 You guys feel free to fix them. | ||
Empyrean
17017 Posts
^_^ Good work. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
The idea is to lay the foundation for what may later become a useful guide for all up-and-coming Protoss players, and maybe useful for all. What would be particularly useful now:
Thanks | ||
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
A player loosing to cheese can not say "I lost, but he cheesed", if you die to it, its your own fault. All imo. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
I hope to get other matchups going after I've got a little more content on this crucial matchup. Hopefully people can give replays, references, etc. here. Jtan, Notice the quotes on "bad manner" I mean that people (especially newbies) will often call cheese strategies bad manner, whether they really are or not. In my opinion, a strategy gets what it deserves; if they beat you with it, you only look like more of a fool for calling it BM. I mean, think about it -- according to the BM sayers, Boxer and Nal_Ra would be the most bad manner players of all time! I think that as long as it's legit and it isn't hacking, it's all good | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On October 21 2004 10:55 ShadowMaster wrote: Orome, I hope to get other matchups going after I've got a little more content on this crucial matchup. Hopefully people can give replays, references, etc. here. Sounds great! I'll be happy to help you in any MU involving Terran | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
dt drop which involves getting the gas ass before gateway observer tech with dragoons dragoon fast expo weapon 1 upgrade zlot rush gl with that | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
Right now I'm just trying to round up PvZ BOs, where a few of those sounded like PvT (all the ones involving goons). I've never heard of a DT drop with gas before gateway on a land map; any BO and reference for that? If someone could contribute good BOs for +1 weapon and corsair/DT rush, I would really appreciate it | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On October 21 2004 12:46 SuNDAnce wrote: as Terran player i could help you with PvT i really good know how to kill terran (but not how to kill toss )That was one of the dumber posts I've read on this forum -_- | ||
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
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previousemperor
Canada271 Posts
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On October 21 2004 11:18 ShadowMaster wrote: Thanks ahk-gosu, Right now I'm just trying to round up PvZ BOs, where a few of those sounded like PvT (all the ones involving goons). I've never heard of a DT drop with gas before gateway on a land map; any BO and reference for that? If someone could contribute good BOs for +1 weapon and corsair/DT rush, I would really appreciate it i get a pylon at 7-8 then gateway. make zlots to cover a ramp or to just protect or harass. cyber. 1 starport and get a goon if hes harassing your block. pump corsairs and get weapon 1 upgrade for air. if your daring get fleet beacon and get d web ive had a lot of success with this. when a few sairs are going up get another gate and citadel then templar. get some dts but dont forget that dts die really fast if they are detected and you must have zlots and goons to support them. they are assassins not grunts. if he has hydras get weapon 1 for ground because hydras take 2 hits from dts if the weapon up is done. just kill his detectors and let the dts do their work. this has worked really well vs muta rushes because the dts eat up that spire in like 10 seconds. adjust as is needed. | ||
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worst.player
625 Posts
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SpuniasauR
Australia1500 Posts
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
8pylon 9gateway 11forge made make zeal on 13 make 2nd pylon where your canon will be perfectly at the range it can hit the hatchery, than you i usually wont make another zeal make 2 canons than keep pumping zeals while getting gas i have a few reps if anyone wants them. | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
On October 21 2004 16:57 ahk-gosu wrote: i get a pylon at 7-8 then gateway. make zlots to cover a ramp or to just protect or harass. cyber. 1 starport and get a goon if hes harassing your block. pump corsairs and get weapon 1 upgrade for air. if your daring get fleet beacon and get d web ive had a lot of success with this. when a few sairs are going up get another gate and citadel then templar. get some dts but dont forget that dts die really fast if they are detected and you must have zlots and goons to support them. they are assassins not grunts. if he has hydras get weapon 1 for ground because hydras take 2 hits from dts if the weapon up is done. just kill his detectors and let the dts do their work. this has worked really well vs muta rushes because the dts eat up that spire in like 10 seconds. adjust as is needed. that is so wrong, dont ever pump sair early game not even vs mutas, do not get weapons vs hydras armor is much better. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
Good Zerg player can destroy the Sair+DT rush relatively easily with 4-6 hatches poping out 1-2/1-2 Hydras and lings. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
pylon at 5, one probe (or not, i don't know at all) then a gateway (may be at 6 or 5, i haven't played in a long time). Just pump probes and build 3 zealots, you want to be showing them to the zerg (don't lose them just to kill a drone, and don't expect to kill them with these). As your 3rd zealot is building get an assim and play it normal like a corsair tech build. But rather than doing temp expo or something like that use DT. Your sair comes out earlier, the zerg is more timid (3 zealots early look like 9/10) and DT can actually do damage rather than 10 gate corsair tech. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 21 2004 19:12 PheeRed.User wrote: for the canon section this will work 100% if you know they will exp, 8pylon 9gateway 11forge made make zeal on 13 make 2nd pylon where your canon will be perfectly at the range it can hit the hatchery, than you i usually wont make another zeal make 2 canons than keep pumping zeals while getting gas i have a few reps if anyone wants them. Thanks. Yes, I would love to have the strongest replay of this strategy that you have. I hope to put them up along with the final product as references to this strategy. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 21 2004 19:43 Cambium wrote: Cannons if he's going muta, then get goons, range, HT, and archons. Cosairs do not work well against mutas (even with the +1 air) unless you have them in large quantity (i.e. 8+). Good Zerg player can destroy the Sair+DT rush relatively easily with 4-6 hatches poping out 1-2/1-2 Hydras and lings. What build order are you referring to? You mention the Sair+DT, but your advice is clearly a different strategy. Could you give me a full build order from pylon 1? Thanks | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 21 2004 20:05 RuGbUg wrote: The only good corsair tech build is this: pylon at 5, one probe (or not, i don't know at all) then a gateway (may be at 6 or 5, i haven't played in a long time). Just pump probes and build 3 zealots, you want to be showing them to the zerg (don't lose them just to kill a drone, and don't expect to kill them with these). As your 3rd zealot is building get an assim and play it normal like a corsair tech build. But rather than doing temp expo or something like that use DT. Your sair comes out earlier, the zerg is more timid (3 zealots early look like 9/10) and DT can actually do damage rather than 10 gate corsair tech. You sound like a man of impressive skills I'm curious; what is your win-loss record with this, and against what competition?  | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
stop following me............... -_- | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On October 21 2004 20:23 ShadowMaster wrote: What build order are you referring to? You mention the Sair+DT, but your advice is clearly a different strategy. Could you give me a full build order from pylon 1? Thanks I was referring to a simply, regular 1-gate tech build. However, like your said, it's just a collection of BOs, so I have nothing against anything. | ||
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 21 2004 20:26 ShadowMaster wrote: i have no idea, i don't recall losing with it, but i can think of a player who i have a bitch of a time beating, and if i did try this against him, theres a good chance i've probably lost with it against him.You sound like a man of impressive skills I'm curious; what is your win-loss record with this, and against what competition? just because it starts with 5 pylon doesn't mean you end up with a crappy economy or that its ridiculously fast. it's on pace with an 8 gate for the first zealot, then the other two come like a 9/10. the sair comes significantly earlier though. just try the strategy out, you don't end up behind on probes because you are building probes the entire time you are training the 3 zealots. just don't get the assim too early or you WILL find yourself short. no, i won't host replays of me playing this or any other games unless i get hit by some other act of god | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
he was so pissed.http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?orderBy=latest (download the one uploaded by pheered.user) also im positive it can be done better my next few pvz i'll try to do a better one. | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
i dunno about the other guy he might have higher. | ||
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
Seriously, gj man! | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 22 2004 14:30 Orome wrote: @ all new people, who want to dl vods: contribute as well as ShadowMaster! Seriously, gj man! Thanks I appreciate it. Does anyone know pro games of corsair+DT setups? | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
Oh btw Shadow, you are doing a fantastic job. I might even convert back to Protoss ^_^ | ||
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iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
On October 21 2004 20:26 ShadowMaster wrote: You sound like a man of impressive skills I'm curious; what is your win-loss record with this, and against what competition? the only thing impressive is that he really thinks hes going to win ANY games vs remotely competant players with that BO. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 22 2004 17:49 maleorderbride wrote: really shows that you try things before you speak your mindthe only thing impressive is that he really thinks hes going to win ANY games vs remotely competant players with that BO. | ||
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ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
also it seems like you're whole mission is to go throughout threads contradicting players that are clearly better, and being pretty 'flaming' or w/e while doing it | ||
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
a la matilda: i'm right, youre wrong. | ||
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ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
i wouldn't be contradicting players if they weren't wrong. when people are right, i don't feel the need to say "NICE RESPONSE," i'm not that kind of person. I also don't feel the need to respond by copy pasting the exact same thing. See all those threads that I'm not posting in? | ||
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Pob
880 Posts
On October 21 2004 11:07 ahk-gosu wrote: dragoon fast expo gl with that you on drugs? rofl worst strategy ever | ||
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maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
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kloownz
26 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
On October 23 2004 10:12 kloownz wrote: I wouldnt waste your time with high templars unless your making archons, any good zerg player knows how to storm dodge. Its just a waste of gas yeah, i like to go 5gate no exp goon vs z it works wonders. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 23 2004 11:34 gg_hertzz wrote: There might be something to RuGBug's early sair build since Nal_Ra used the same build to optimal effect in a replay I saw several months ago. I'm not commenting on that particular build but that really isn't a good example -.- I've seen nal_ra beat people with 4 probe rush (twice). Doesn't make it good :X | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
O_o | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 23 2004 13:36 A3iL3r0n wrote: Technical Edit: Haven't read through the whole thread but, one of your strats is titled "Core" but there is no definition above. Thanks for catching that. When I say "core'" I mean the nucleus strategies; core is a much nicer word. But I recognize that it can easily be mistaken for Cybernetics Core and so I have updated my definitions accordingly. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 22 2004 15:53 Cambium wrote: Try some of Zeus' VODs/Replays. If I recall correctly, he almost always do Sair+DT. Oh btw Shadow, you are doing a fantastic job. I might even convert back to Protoss ^_^ I've only got 3 Zeus PvZ games in my collection, but in each of them Zeus seems to be a hardcore Zeal+Storm guy; no Corsairs in sight. Definitely rather old school in style. Am I missing some reps? Anyway, I'm going to check Nal_Ra for sair/DT content. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
There's one that's forge first, expo, then pylon at expo with two cannons. You use the probes to block any lings from rushing through and try to build things to make it hard to simply run past your choke. The second is a standard zealot rush but you send a probe along for pylon, shield battery. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
KissBlade, yeah, I know that I've seen some fairly recent forge-first quick expand builds. Anyone have the actual replays? I've also considered battery-rushes but have never seen it done in a serious game. Replays of that? Thanks. | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 24 2004 16:29 NonY wrote: The 4 probe rush I used to do involved sending a probe out after every building.. build pylon, send that probe out. build gate, send that probe out, build 2nd gate, send that probe out, build 2nd pylon, send that probe out. that way, when you have 8 mineral patches, you continue to have 1 probe per mineral patch. a 9th probe isnt as helpful as an 8th probe, because of diminishing returns (the 9th probe has to sometimes travel an extra distance to find a patch) So, you're suggesting something like: 7.5 Pylon, scout. 9 Gate, scout. 10 gate, scout. 11 Zealot. 13 pylon, scout, where scoutting is just sending the probes to the enemy base? Do you harrass with every probe, or wait until all 4 or the zealot arrive? Replay? | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
On October 29 2004 12:14 pheered.user wrote: Didi's canon rush is exactly like mine with different gate/forget times and i dont send 2 probes. I dont think the two need two different sections. Yes, I noticed that. I'll merge them | ||
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Venlow
United States110 Posts
On October 21 2004 11:18 ShadowMaster wrote: Thanks ahk-gosu, Right now I'm just trying to round up PvZ BOs, where a few of those sounded like PvT (all the ones involving goons). I've never heard of a DT drop with gas before gateway on a land map; any BO and reference for that? If someone could contribute good BOs for +1 weapon and corsair/DT rush, I would really appreciate it 8 Pylon, scout, 10 Gateway, 12 Assimilator, 14/15 Core, Zealot (Psi should be 17/17,), 17 Pylon, 19 Dragoon, 21 Stargate, 23 Citadel, 25 Sair, 25 Pylon, 27 Archives, DT... Although many toss consider this a risky build, it typically dosen't lose in the early game after a few games of practice. The build calls for a very fast core followed by a quick sair, which you can either follow up with a storm expand, dt harass into expand, or triple gate +1 speed zeals. If you scout hatch before pool, send your first zeal to harass, and make a goon after your zeal and you should have an ovie in your base about now, if you kill the ovie, the zerg will usually not send their lings but keep a probe outside their base to see if they are heading your way. If you scout 12 pool keep your first zeal in your base and follow it up again with the goon and contonue normally. If you scout 9 pool :O, go for 2 zealots off the bat, when your first zeal comes out hold the ramp with your zeal and 3 probes, when he begins attacking your zeal A) dont let him get up the ramp B) dont let your zeal die! when the HP gets around 75 run the zeal around until the second zeal pops out, this will take some micro but it's very possible to do with practice. Ok, you've held your ramp until this point and your sair just popped out, what to do? If you didn't kill the initial scouting lord with your goon (or if you didnt make it) dont worry about it now, just keep in mind where it might be on the map. You want to head straight to his base and find ovies,you are guarnteed at least 2 ovie kills before he gets dras out or a spore colony up (more sometimes depending on how well you hid your stargate). Now after the initial Sair you have a few options which all work equally as well as the next. The first is sair/dt, you can go 1 gate or 2 gate, it really depends on what you want to do. If you want to harass well and delay ur expo then go two gate, if u want a faster expo then go 1 gate. I would suggest 1 gate, bah im bored bye. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
7.5 pylon, scout. 9 gate, 10 gate. 11 pylon, halt probe production. Rally zealots to enemy base and accompany with 2 probes, bringing the total to 3 probes + zealots. Continue zealot production to ~32 psi and maintain pressure. Especially designed for close positions (12 v 3 LT) and early expansion by Zerg. Countered By: The best counter is a two-hatch in-base build with a pool before 12. I'd say that 10 hatch at expo 9 pool(before over) is a good counter too, cause it allows you to tech really fast for lurker or muta. | ||
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ShadowMaster
United States238 Posts
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Veigh
Netherlands300 Posts
Shadowmasters masterclass? | ||
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