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On July 19 2010 23:02 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 12:41 Subversive wrote:On July 17 2010 10:03 swanized wrote:On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote:
About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz:
In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate. That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately, thanks for your input I will edit this to OP On July 16 2010 13:25 SubtleArt wrote:
Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that. I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell, well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever, Because SubtleArt divides his time on the forum between telling people how wrong they are and then asking people to do his homework for non-existant beta keys. Foucault left some big shoes to fill when he got banned. Luckily Subtle has stepped up and is now not doing any uni work at all in order to concentrate full-time all his amazing powers to telling bad posters like yourself that you're wrong because you're D-. Unless that's some other guy in which case don't think you're special just because you got something spotlighted, any D+ could have said the same thing. Including Subtle, but he was just too busy going through all those threads for his uni work that others have done for him. You just happen to have a lot of free time on your hands. Subtle could have written that article way better but he just didn't have the time. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.htmlIf you look at a lot of my recent posts in the strat forum though, they're pretty helpful. Also I don't care about the poster but if I think what he's saying is wrong (which in this case I do) I'll provide a reasonable argument against it (like I did). There was another thread where I said I felt very low level players should try to restrain from offering too much strategic help and I stand by it, but in this case it's totally irrelevant. Here an example of a bad post btw + Show Spoiler +On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote:
hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..
Of course you are quiet correct and I apologise. I would have replied sooner but I've been on another forum and absolutely no one is willing to help me with this essay I need to hand in. I've promised them a free beta key for sc2, and while I imagine there aren't as many sc2 players there as there are here I would have thought that with such an exciting new game at least some of them would have been interested.
So far all that's happened is that I've been mocked and abused. As this other forum is such a reasonable site of mature people this took me totally by surprise. Also some of those ungrateful bastards are claiming that I don't have a beta key and that my thread is a homework thread because I'm lazy. This is totally not true! I happen to be anything but lazy, as anyone can see if they look through my recent posts in the General and Broodwar forum here. I think I offer really solid advice. In fact recently I suggested that new players in the General forum shouldn't give advice and should hold back from it, and I stand by that comment. Of course here it's totally irrelevant.
Thank you also for that link that was evidently written by a 1st year Philosophy student. I had no idea what an ad hominem attack was, but now that I do I see that it was most unfair of me to attack someone as distinguished and helpful as yourself.
Lastly I agree that HeadhunteR's post was bad. I would have simply taken your word for it, because you are usually correct in these matters, being an expert as you are in sorting bad posters from good ones. I also note that he disagreed with the OP without asking his current rank. This was clearly a mistake as you have shown conclusively that every post should refer to someone's iccup rank, particularly in the strategy forum. I won't ask yours, because I don't wish to take on airs and graces of a successful poster - I am still learning and I am very grateful you have taken time out of your busy homework thread/strategy forum advice time to help me personally.
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Man beautiful! Just watched these vods and read the article and it was awesome ^^ I have to say that zero is starting this trend not great though.
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It's nice to see a little more variation in ZvZ.
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 20 2010 16:50 ReketSomething wrote:
Man beautiful! Just watched these vods and read the article and it was awesome ^^ I have to say that zero is starting this trend not great though.
well they both are, and I quoted great because his interviews are mega-baller
thanks :p
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Wow, exciting new developments. I remember when I interviewed   Testie back in 2005-6ish and asked whether he thought scourge no muta was possible. He did.
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@tree.hugger: going into late game, pure mutaling just doesn't cut it. Zvz will always have a mutaling early-mid game, no doubt about it, but once defilers kick in, hydralurk is all but invincible against it. Swarm protects hydra from muta AND deters ovis while lurks mop up lings. Add to that that most likely queens will have been gotten along the way, ensnared muta can be plagued and chased down with speed hydra easily.
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On July 20 2010 11:33 tree.hugger wrote:
The thing about the EffOrt v. Hyuk game is that it didn't demonstrate the functionality of anything new, really, except that two hatch/pool/hatch is a viable build. It's still an open question which other maps that's a strategy that makes any sense. If the player doesn't take another expansion with his third hatch, then you do only have to defend two bases though, so it's possible.
But furthermore, I'm not sure EffOrt intended to use anything other than muta/ling/scourge. That could be because he had a clear route to winning, but I'm never convinced that hydras, lurkers, or ultras are a viable alternative to muta/ling. I could see EffOrt going to get a queen, because he's already got the tech, but I think the proxy nydus was more of a mental thing, like a manner cc or hatch, to fire up his team. Muta/ling is so mobile, and if you've got enough mutalisks, then it's hard to see what zerg unit is a suitable alternative.
Hive tech supported Hydra is better than Hive tech supported muta.
Devourers are just as beneficial at supporting hydras against mutas because spores greatly amplify damage and hydras shoot so fast and have enough range that their attack is just as effective as glave wurm bouncing on targets.
Defilers with Plague neuters both hydras and mutas but Hydras can be protected by swarm while mutas can't.
The reason mutas became the defacto unit in the early days of mutaling vs hydraling battles was the superior mobility. That mobility becomes mute for the hydra user on defense thanks to Nydus Canals. While not as useful for offense the threat of hydra mobility enhanced by Nydus exists.
On top of all that the hydra user has easy access to lurker tech which reduces the threat of cracklingDswarm greatly.
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I've been thinking a bit about this, and i think the best way to play mutaless ZvZ would be queen/ensnare plus scourge.
Let's just assume both openings for each player is normal until lair, both on 2 bases etc. Get spire at normal time, but also get queen's nest. You won't be saving mins for muta's so get evo and spores at whatever a good time would be for it. Then once spire is done get scourge only, and play defensively until you get ensnare out. This is probably the risky part as you give up map control, however with the mineral advantage you have you can build a lot more speedlings and use them as distraction and to keep a small amount of pressure on them. Once ensnare is out you have a clear advantage and can be chasing their mutas down and using your heavy speedling count to push in and possibly win, can use any extra energy with the queens to ensnare their lings too even. Then you are open to tech to hive, get a 3rd or do whatever at this point. I think this could be refined into an exact build with a right number of queens and details like that. The main advantage with this is the resources, while your gas use might turn out about equal you will definitely have more minerals.
The disadvantages being that possibly vulnerable period i mentioned, good multitask/micro needed to ensnare/scourge while using lings effectively (although probably no more than regular muta/scourge/ling?) and the reliance on your opponent to play standard despite probably scouting your queens nest and seeing spores. Anyone got any thoughts on this? I don't have the mechanics to play ZvZ myself but just theoretically i can see it as a viable alternative to standard play. The scourge count should be enough to counter the muta on its own until ensnare turns the tables, but someone experienced directly in this matchup might be able to point out a hole in this.
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There's one flaw in that.. You still need muta to finish the off scourged muta. Using 2 scourge per muta negates the cost effectiveness of it (especially if your scourge gets sniped before ensnare) and on top of that, scourge cant attack ground and therefore are all but useless even if you manage to kill all your opponents muta
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On July 21 2010 23:41 DarkSaieden wrote:
Using 2 scourge per muta negates the cost effectiveness of it
I dunno, trading 25/75 for 100/100 seems pretty cost effective. :|
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I was working on the premise 2 scourge per muta is a good trade, even if we assume some are killed, single-time scourged muta's are useless for attacking a spore defended base anyway in which case they completed their objective. The fact you are saving 75 minerals each time means you can have a far superior speedling count (maybe even tech up to cracklings once you have advantage, considering you already have queen's nest), which is what wins you the ground battle.
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with those two (very early) spores you're opponent isn't getting, he can build a hatch, meaning more drones more drones, meaning more ling/sunk as he'll have the larvae advantage which in zvz is almost always better than a pure mineral advantage gas-wise, you must make 12 pairs of scourge and he must make 12 muta before you break even on the gas cost of the nest, ensnare and ONE queen. It'll also be very hard to get one scourge per muta cos they'll be stacked and you need the extra apm to actually find, keep track of, and then target individualy with scourge. Its not like vessel cloud that is spread nicely for you for the terran's convenience. Also, a faster teching z will have muta/scourge while you only have 1-2 queens while spire is building leaving you very vulnerable if your opponent just takes a few hits on his muta to scourge your queen. 1 queen is a much much greater loss than a muta in this situation, arguably worth 2 if you consider the cost of the queens nest and ensnare. I'm all for queens, but mutas are just more dynamic and flexible for the cost as an early mid game unit. Once you have mutas out, then get spores to defend while teching queens.
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 22 2010 03:50 DarkSaieden wrote:
with those two (very early) spores you're opponent isn't getting, he can build a hatch, meaning more drones more drones, meaning more ling/sunk as he'll have the larvae advantage which in zvz is almost always better than a pure mineral advantage gas-wise, you must make 12 pairs of scourge and he must make 12 muta before you break even on the gas cost of the nest, ensnare and ONE queen. It'll also be very hard to get one scourge per muta cos they'll be stacked and you need the extra apm to actually find, keep track of, and then target individualy with scourge. Its not like vessel cloud that is spread nicely for you for the terran's convenience. Also, a faster teching z will have muta/scourge while you only have 1-2 queens while spire is building leaving you very vulnerable if your opponent just takes a few hits on his muta to scourge your queen. 1 queen is a much much greater loss than a muta in this situation, arguably worth 2 if you consider the cost of the queens nest and ensnare. I'm all for queens, but mutas are just more dynamic and flexible for the cost as an early mid game unit. Once you have mutas out, then get spores to defend while teching queens.
I agree... scourge/queen looks good on paper but is nearly impossible to do without dieing first with today's level of muta micro. also cloning will be very complicated. I think the queen gets out too late for you to hold off with just scourge. (queen needs queen nest, plus ensnare research, very long T_T)
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The timing is all wrong and pure scourge is too easy to snipe until you get enough energy for ensnare. Getting Queen's nest that early means death. Ultimately you have to build up mutas before gettings queens nest. The difference of 10 mutas vs 6 mutas and a queen gathering energy is very risky compared to 24 mutas vs 20 mutas and two queens.
Maybe there is a way to support a scourge attrition build. Strictly speaking if you build a hatch first with queens nest ASAP afterwards. Then get a spire midway into the nest's morphing. Research Ensnare then get a queen. With the spare minerals you might have on hand get more lings or build spore colonies depending on the opponent's emphasis. By the time ensnare is researched the queen has a few seconds before it has 75 energy and the spire will be ready to morph scourge.
After all that is achieved maybe scourge attriton can work but the issue is how to get there. Spore colonies are really powerful but their inability to chase down mutas is a big flaw with this idea. You need to build up a lot of colonies or you need hydras (flawed because you most likely are going to have to use them without upgrades for a long time) or mutas (probably the most practical option on any map.)
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Im not sure if this is bump worthy... But what do people think about the strategy that Zero played in This game. Going strait to devourers and skipping queens?
Sorry if this wasn't a good post...
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Also of note what did happen to this revolution; there was alot of talk about a big incoming ZvZ revolution a few months back, but im not really sure hive tech type play has gotten that much more popular.
Did this fizzle out some or do you guys still think there is a good chance we will see this ZvZ revolution?
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Oh man swanized, I remember reading this post and being like "I approve."
Now it's clicked that you were the one who wrote that!
Lategame ZvZs are awesome, and I really hope to see more of them.
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Canada2480 Posts
On November 29 2010 16:17 flamewheel wrote:
Oh man swanized, I remember reading this post and being like "I approve."
Now it's clicked that you were the one who wrote that!
Lategame ZvZs are awesome, and I really hope to see more of them.
lol, I was like "wth this got bumped?"
I just wish late-game ZvZs picked up at the same pace then last season, maybe zero will feel in an experimental mood soon?
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The tipping point when I thought "Oh shit, I don't understand what I'm watching at all, this isn't ZvZ" was in EffOrt vs. Hyuk. Some day, I hope to see ZvZs play out like that as a standard. Or Zero vs. Great. ZvZs are really exciting after the muta stage, it is quite lamentable that any developments in late game ZvZ have stagnated. If EffOrt didn't just retire, I'm sure he'd have spearheaded any new developments in heavy eco, late spire play.
The new maps seem to support this kind of play, so I'm not sure why we're not seeing more late-game oriented ZvZ play. It seems like we'll have to wait for ZerO's new innovations, though it seems he's doing pretty well in regular ZvZ which means he has less of a need to develop new strategies to deal with his weaknesses. Yeah, do hope ZerO experiments more.
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On November 29 2010 16:05 L_Master wrote:
Also of note what did happen to this revolution; there was alot of talk about a big incoming ZvZ revolution a few months back, but im not really sure hive tech type play has gotten that much more popular.
Did this fizzle out some or do you guys still think there is a good chance we will see this ZvZ revolution?
It will never become mainstream simply because for late game to happen in that match the games need to be pretty damn close AND neither player must take a gamble up to a certain point (unless that gamble either fails and/or somehow keeps the two players with about equal chances to win).
The kinds of games that this "newish" style will replace is those where tons of mutas are just going in circles and neither player is willing to taking any chances. Getting a queen nest and going queens or hive should prevail from now on. Hopefully it will, anyway.
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EPT
