The Lurkers Really stood out. It wasn't a showmanship, but a strategy in order to Win. I think you MaY be able to see a Hydra-Lurker battle in one or two years. I want to show everyone more entertaining Zerg versus Zerg matches from now on. From now on I want to try different kinds of strategies in Zerg matches and I want to be person to lead that trend.
If TvT is the match-up Where you would take a nap...waiting for Actually interesting match to be played in the next set. ZvZ is the match-up Where you go take a snack. your typical ZvZ consists of build order loss, lings battle, muta/scourge battle, 10 workers mining all Game long, and an average of 7 to 10 minutes per games. Nerve wrecking...but not very spectacular.(in my opinion)
RARELY did games like this one happen.
ZerO unveiled queens in their First Modern ZvZ televised appearance.
here is a quick summary of this deadly new weapon.
THE QUEEN
Ensnare
the queen's most usefull spell in this match-up, ensnare is a Green goo the queen launches that splashes in a 5x5 matrix area. units nuder effect of ensnare have their movement speed halved. Units that are speed upgraded revert to their original speed instead. Ensnare also has effects on the rate of Fire of units, the reduction varies depending on the units.(ie: a siege-tank suffers no decrease while a stimmed Marine suffers a 42% percent decrease)
Mutalisks suffers a 18% decrease.
A queen can cast ensnare over 10 mutalisks (and it is rare a queen will hit under 15 or so mutas considering how stacked they are) and you are now fighting an effective force of 8.2 mutas.(plus their movement speed is halved)
it is also possible to use ensnare to delay the mutas and do some harassment like this.
stop at around 11:29
A small hope came from ZerO vs type-b...what if ZvZ could become interesting? what if, with these new innovations long ZvZ became a bit more standard? That small hope was quickly crushed as the good old muta/scourge ZvZ would still be used in every single games.
yet, on the 12th of June 2010... events of unforeseeable importance took place
4 th set of woonjing vs KHAN, woonjing up 2:1 Neo.G_soulkey vs great
Game starts off like your normal ZvZ, with great going overpool and SoulKey doing 12 hatch. SoulKey is forced to put down spores to fend off the faster mutas. Game draws on without any Major muta engagement so SoulKey starts teching toward hive and gets queen. great, decides to take a rather fast third. SoulKey gets devourer. but great gets hydras, this was probably the First time I saw hydras in a Modern professional ZvZ (keep in mind hydras do 5 damage to mutas not 10 because of explosive damage).
SoulKey tries to take out great's third and nearly succeeds.
but SoulKey's muta/scourge/devourer/queen are fended off by great's Hydra/muta/scourge
great then morph some hydras Into lurkers and busts SoulKey's Natural.
while the Game was very interesting and showed many under-used units in ZvZ, what caught my attention the most was the post-game interview.
The Lurkers Really stood out. It wasn't a showmanship, but a strategy in order to Win. I think you May be able to see a Hydra-Lurker battle in one or two years. I want to show everyone more entertaining Zerg versus Zerg matches from now on. From now on I want to try different kinds of strategies in Zerg matches and I want to be person to lead that trend.
In this game, ZerO uses muta/queen to trash RorO who uses a standard muta/scourge composition. the video showing off an harass trick using ensnare earlier in the article is taken from this game...
and This morning,
*SEVERE SPOILER AHEAD*
I would just like to point out that in ALL of the previous games, including ZerO vs type-b, the Build orders were 9 pool (but not 9 pool speed) or overpool for one of the players and 12 hatch for the other. This is important since 12 hatch gets mutas significantly later for one of the player, thus, that player is forced to spore up to deal with the mutas early on. With the spores in place, being aggressive early on with his mutas is much harder for the 1 basing player while the 2 basing player don't have the muta count to be aggressive right away. so the 1 basing player usually will take his Natural and the Game will often go Into late-game.
On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote: About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz: In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
but in this Game, great went for a 12 pool while ZerO went for a 12 hatch. Yet, even though ZerO's mutas production was not significantly behind great's(from the vod around 15 seconds after, clearly not enough to force you to get 2 spores, thus ZerO planned to get these spores and go into late game no matter his opponent's build), yet he still got spore colonies and prepared himself for a long Game by getting his queen nest up. Meanwhile, great massed more mutas and engages ZerO in a muta Battle.
ZerO BARELY manages to survive the muta battle by adding new spores and by puling off good ensnares. Having traded armies, great adds a rather fast third base and gets a Hydra den with a 4th hatchery. great's unique touch to late-game ZvZ is that he likes hydras and he stays on lair for quite a long time. Meanwhile ZerO get's a greater spire for devourers. great puts spores in his base and both players are alright with teching. As soon as devourers pop, ZerO moves out with his forces while taking a third base but great's spore/muta/hydras defense is too strong for ZerO to get any Major damage done. Both players get double defiler mound up for fast plague but ZerO also makes a Hydra den. great also takes a fourth base. ZerO takes his own fourth and both players get lurkers.
from then on the Game was composed of defiler snipes using broodlings, hydralurk/ling defiler forces clashing, doom drops, and a final transition Into ultras by both players..
Doom drop ZvZ?
ultralings ZvZ?
In the End great's superior economy grants him the victory
circled in blue: great's bases in Green: ZerO's bases
great plays a very creative late Game ZvZ. whilst every other zergs like to tech and get defilers/devourers and queens out quickly. great plays a very defensive Style and gets hydras to defend against the mutas while taking a fast third base...he then transitions Into an hydralurk army. This very economic Style of late-game ZvZ has been working very well so far.
the most important part about this morning's Game though... is not the pure epicness of it but rather the fact that for the First time, one of the two players(ZerO) decided to put down spores even though he did not need them to survive and thus decided to send the Game Into the late-game. Every single game before that was he 12 hatching player FORCED to put down spores and the game was FORCED to go into late-game.
changes are happening in ZvZ, and much faster then anyone thought possible, 33 days ago, great predicted that we could Start seeing hydralurk battles in a year or two. Yet this morning we saw the First one. this new trend spearheaded by ZerO and great is sure to make ZvZ a VERY interesting match-up and no longer the part Where you go take a snack and wait for an Actually good game.
Only time will tell if this is Just a temporary trend or the End of an Era.
Edit: I just want to make clear that I am NOT saying that getting spores to go into late-game is BETTER but rather that this is currently a possible road ZvZs might take once in a while
EDIT
************************************SKT VS CJ Day 2 spoiler ****************************************
ok so I already talked about ZerO sending the game into late-game deliberately by building uneeded spores in ZerO vs Great
well here Effort basically took the concept to another level...completely.
Both players go 12 pool with hyuk putting his second hatch inbase and Effort putting his second hatch at his mineral only.
at around 3:15 Effort takes ANOTHER expansion so he is now at 3 base and two gas... of course this delays Effort's Lair a lot and his mutas will never be in time to block hyuk's mutas, so Effort puts down 1 or 2 spore colonies at each of his three base and drone-up, being off 3 hatches, Effort can keep a higher ling count then hyuk and force hyuk to spend larva into zerglings to keep up.
Once hyuk's mutas arrive at destination, they have a little surprise in the form of spores and no mutas out for Effort...
hyuk starts massing his muta ball while Effort produce a pretty massive(for ZvZ) amount of drones and tries to get lair running... Hyuk tries to snipe the spore at Effort's third but hyuk manages to get new spores just in time... Effort is rolling on such a larger Economy that he can easily afford to spend drones making spores.
sadly hyuk fails because of the new spores morphing
Hyuk then tries to break Effort's mineral only with a large mutaling force but gets fended off by Effort's simcity and 3 hatches worth of lingpump.
it looks like it will work
reinforcements from 3 hatch imba
Effort finally starts his spire...9:15 into the game(lol)
at 10:00 hyuk takes his second base (gas)
at 11:00 Effort's takes his fourth base at the 10 o'clock while hyuk takes his mineral only.
at 11:30 Efforts first mutas pop and he makes a queen's nest
Effort then starts harassing hyuk's drone line (a luxury Hyuk can't afford since Effort's bases are covered with spores) Effort also does a magnificient job of avoiding muta battles because he still is on inferior muta count for now.
With hive done Effort makes a nydus canal...
[center]I sense something cheesy[/center]
Hyuk moves in to finish Effort's fourth but Effort attacks hyuk's third at the same time with a crackling(yes crackling) and muta force...forcing hyuk to back off and manages to snipe off Effort's mineral only and his spire. Yet in the midst of all this crisis... an Image says a 1000 word they say?
Effort attacks hyuk's mineral only
ninja nydus
I think that spawning pool will go down
(the spire got sniped by Effort's mutas...could not highlit that with a picture)
with both the spire and the pool down and sitting on only 2 base against his opponents 4, hyuk tries a last muta/ling break and is finished off swiftly.
Coach is happy
with this game Effort showed again, and very shortly after ZerO did, that it is possible to force lategame ZvZ to happen AND NOT JUST ON THRIATLON (aimed at those who said Zero's play only worked cause it was thriatlon). now some might argue that this play is only possible on maps with easy minerals only... maybe that's true or maybe not, only time (and EffOrt) will tell.
Edit: here is a nice post by GHOSTCLAW, telling how he thinks this new, turtlier style of zerg is due to the maps getting bigger and 12 hatch becoming a more "standard" opening
On July 19 2010 14:07 GHOSTCLAW wrote: I think that the zvz matchup is contually adding depth through innovations in mid-late game transitions. Muta micro has gotten good enough so that scourge don't work very well (hence the death of ling/scourge) and spores directly counter how good the muta micro is. This means that you force both players in the ZvZ to make better decisions in order to have an advantage going into lategame. I think that one of the keys for the player who has earlier mutalisks is they need to be able to take advantage of their ability to deny scouting to the player who is turtling with spores. I also think that this "new" style (spore+sunken with heavy drones and better econ) is a property of the maps getting even bigger, and close thirds + 1 possible choke allowing zergs to better be able to turtle behind static defenses. If we go back to many of the older maps, this kind of style wouldn't be possible at all.
Last key point: all of this really means that 12 hat is becoming the standard viable build in zvz, with all maps having ~30 second rush distances. As a prediction, if the maps keep staying the current size or larger, I would expect 9 pool/overpool to become "safe" builds, and possibly too safe (similar to 2 rax builds in TvZ); 9 pool speed should still have a place as the most aggressive build however, due to the mobility and aggressiveness that early speedlings give you.
I think it was just a one time thing. Zero just stopped mutalisk production because he was afraid of plague/spores, but I think if he continued with that he would have won. It was a crazy and cool game, though.
On July 16 2010 06:01 Crunchums wrote: You can't ignore that the game was played on Triathalon, which is a pretty crazy map for ZvZ.
that is true, yet there have been a large amount(compared to what we used to have that is) of long ZvZ lately and they are not all on Thriatlon
I just want to make clear that I am not saying that this WILL happen or that getting spores to get the game into late-game is BETTER but rather that it might become a possibility.
On July 16 2010 06:07 deathgod6 wrote: I think it was just a one time thing. Zero just stopped mutalisk production because he was afraid of plague/spores, but I think if he continued with that he would have won. It was a crazy and cool game, though.
hmm I am not sure... great's hydralurk army was pretty damn powerful ...especially with swarm and plague support. You must also consider it probably worked for great MANY MANY times in practice for he to do it i such an important game. Ground army late-game ZvZ is all up to great at the moment.
(considering what Great said in his interview I think we will see these kind of plays from him a lot more often from now on)
I always wondered why progamers used 600m/600g on mutalisks against an opponent that could block him with a measly 300 - 500m worth of static defenses across 2 hatcheries.
Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).
On July 16 2010 09:39 Fiel wrote: I always wondered why progamers used 600m/600g on mutalisks against an opponent that could block him with a measly 300 - 500m worth of static defenses across 2 hatcheries.
Uh... because those defenses across 2 hatcheries don't defend anywhere else on the map? The player with mutas can just expand anywhere.
On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote: Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).
while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)
hey I'm not the one saying it(well kinda but...) great is ^^
Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.
On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote: Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).
while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)
hey I'm not the one saying it(well kinda but...) great is ^^
Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.
Well the thing is ZvZs don't go to late game. Its always a ling / muta battle and you can never get a hive and w/e tech afterwards cause you need every last mineral being spent on mutas. If u don't get said mutas you're fucked plain and simple.
Like I said, the only time a ZvZ goes to late game is under ridiculous circumstances (like that JD vs YEllow game where jaedong is in a sizeable disadvantage so he starts to hide behind spores) or an obscure map (triathalon)
Btw arent u that guy from that tourney thread that tried to sound like he knew wat he was talking about even those like 10 people blatantly proved u wrong and told u to stop trying to analyze shit with d- knowledge? Or is that a different guy
On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote: Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).
while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)
hey I'm not the one saying it(well kinda but...) great is ^^
Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.
Btw arent u that guy from that tourney thread that tried to sound like he knew wat he was talking about even those like 10 people blatantly proved u wrong and told u to stop trying to analyze shit with d- knowledge? Or is that a different guy
??????
I'm the guy who wrote the article about Dreamliner that is in "on the spotlight"... maybe that's why my ID rings a bell. Edit: also...the only thing I post in tourney is woonjing fighting or Oz fighting or Hiya= mega baller so I doubt it's me Edit: personnal attacks DON"T WIN ARGUMENTS btw you don't actually get spores if you are in an advantage ZvZ... 12 hatch against 9 pool you will get spores because your mutas are out much later and you need some way to fend off the first mutas.
and If I recall Jaedong was in a fairly bad situation after losing 4 drones defending against the lings(if I recall).
so what was SO important about this morning's game was that ZerO showed he could purposefully FORCE the ZvZ to get into late-game... all the other ZvZ before that were 9 pool(not speed) vs 12 hatch so 12 hatch would still get spores...but against their will to defend against the mutas.
now you are right that it is rare to see a ZvZ get into late game but we just had 4 late game ZvZ in a month...we used to get that like once a year? I doubt this is coincidental, players are starting to get spore more often now, again we will need quite a bit of time (and more great/zerO ZvZ goodness) to find out if ZvZ is actually changing or if it will stay the same forever.
On July 16 2010 11:20 SubtleArt wrote:
Well the thing is ZvZs don't go to late game. Its always a ling / muta battle and you can never get a hive and w/e tech afterwards cause you need every last mineral being spent on mutas. If u don't get said mutas you're fucked plain and simple.
Did you watch the games??
Great did get a good load of mutas... just that instead of teching toward queen, devourers like every other zerg once late-game ZvZ comes around Great techs to hydras...of course you die if you don't get mutas NO ONE is EVER gonna argue against that, and also yes you can get a hive and tech...the minerals spent on getting a queen/devourers will FAR outweigh the mutas you don't have in your army. Getting a queen is standard in ZvZ(if you have spores...which you have if the game reached this point). just that little queen will give you a massive edge once the big muta battle comes around.(a 18% edge)
On July 16 2010 06:01 Crunchums wrote: You can't ignore that the game was played on Triathalon, which is a pretty crazy map for ZvZ.
that is true, yet there have been a large amount(compared to what we used to have that is) of long ZvZ lately and they are not all on Triathlon
I just want to make clear that I am not saying that this WILL happen or that getting spores to get the game into late-game is BETTER but rather that it might become a possibility.
Well it's like you said; these sorts of ZvZ's happen when one player is forced to go spores and then the game stalemates. Higher tech (eg ensnare, plague, devs) is really effective in ZvZ, the problem is without the stalemate part you can't get there without dieing.
Getting spores to get in to the late game and higher tech is not something you go into the game planning on doing. My point is that Triathalon is an exception to this rule.
I think there's tons of unexplored depth in the ZvZ matchup once you reach the point where you can tech to anything other than a spire without dieing. But going spores is only really something you do when you are forced to and if you're making them otherwise you should get destroyed and I don't think it's possible to plan your games so that you always reach that point; too much relies on your opponents build.
On July 16 2010 09:39 Fiel wrote: I always wondered why progamers used 600m/600g on mutalisks against an opponent that could block him with a measly 300 - 500m worth of static defenses across 2 hatcheries.
Because your econ will be fucked; that "measly" 300 - 500m also represents about a fourth of your drone count. Meanwhile your opponent has free reign to do whatever the fuck they want while you are scrambling to not die to lings.
On July 16 2010 09:47 SubtleArt wrote: Muta micro is just improving more and more and more and more. I've tried using hydras in ZvZ for fun and they just don't work. Waaay too weak against mutas and lings and theres no semblance of map control for a ridiculous amount of time (if any). I doubt we'd see that. ZvZ will forever remain a low econ MU with mutas and lings. All the games ur citing have something ridiculous / unordinary happening (completely dead even, someone turtling hard with spores, etc) or just a really weird map (triathalon).
while that is true but we are not talking about a real hydra ZvZ but about a hydra transition in the late-game ZvZ... if you watched both great game you could see what I am talking about.( what great does is that instead of teching to devourers he goes hydras and uses a hydra/muta force and gradually switches to hydralurk once hehas defiler support, as I said maybe this is a temporary trend or maybe the Match-up is in a period of deep changes)
hey I'm not the one saying it(well kinda but...) great is ^^
Edit: I just want to mention too that... as I said before, for great to pull off his hydralurk stuff twice (vs soulkey, vs zero) in very important matches(for play-offs chances and for MSL qualifications) it must have worked MANY MANY times in practice games.
Btw arent u that guy from that tourney thread that tried to sound like he knew wat he was talking about even those like 10 people blatantly proved u wrong and told u to stop trying to analyze shit with d- knowledge? Or is that a different guy
??????
I'm the guy who wrote the article about Dreamliner that is in "on the spotlight"... maybe that's why my ID rings a bell. Edit: also...the only thing I post in tourney is woonjing fighting or Oz fighting or Hiya= mega baller so I doubt it's me Edit: personnal attacks DON"T WIN ARGUMENTS btw you don't actually get spores if you are in an advantage ZvZ... 12 hatch against 9 pool you will get spores because your mutas are out much later and you need some way to fend off the first mutas.
and If I recall Jaedong was in a fairly bad situation after losing 4 drones defending against the lings(if I recall).
so what was SO important about this morning's game was that ZerO showed he could purposefully FORCE the ZvZ to get into late-game... all the other ZvZ before that were 9 pool(not speed) vs 12 hatch so 12 hatch would still get spores...but against their will to defend against the mutas.
now you are right that it is rare to see a ZvZ get into late game but we just had 4 late game ZvZ in a month...we used to get that like once a year? I doubt this is coincidental, players are starting to get spore more often now, again we will need quite a bit of time (and more great/zerO ZvZ goodness) to find out if ZvZ is actually changing or if it will stay the same forever.
Well the thing is ZvZs don't go to late game. Its always a ling / muta battle and you can never get a hive and w/e tech afterwards cause you need every last mineral being spent on mutas. If u don't get said mutas you're fucked plain and simple.
Did you watch the games??
Great did get a good load of mutas... just that instead of teching toward queen, devourers like every other zerg once late-game ZvZ comes around Great techs to hydras...of course you die if you don't get mutas NO ONE is EVER gonna argue against that, and also yes you can get a hive and tech...the minerals spent on getting a queen/devourers will FAR outweigh the mutas you don't have in your army. Getting a queen is standard in ZvZ(if you have spores...which you have if the game reached this point). just that little queen will give you a massive edge once the big muta battle comes around.(a 18% edge)
No you don't have the time to get hive, nor do u have the time to get a queens nest and queen in a normal ZvZ. All you're pointing out in this thread are exceptions and your whole premise is basically "well we're seeing more exceptions than usual so somethings changing". First of all 4 isn't that much considering all the ZvZs played. Those games were all exceptions to normal ZvZ and for a reason. Also Triathlon is a weird fucking map, (thats the only example u have of a zerg going lategame "because he just wants to". If going late game were truly a strat great loved and thought was awesome and flexible we'd see it a lot more, not just under freak circumstances (which is what all of these games are). Absolutely nothing is gonna change in ZvZ. You can PM me in 1 month, 2 months, 10 months, or on your deathbed to confirm im right. Also zergs DO get spores on cases other than 12h vs 9p, for example when their muta ball is smaller and they have no choice (see yellow vs saint).
Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.
About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz: In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.
On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote: About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz: In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.
That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately,
thanks for your input
I will edit this to OP
On July 16 2010 13:25 SubtleArt wrote:
Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.
I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell,
well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever,
I think its wrong to compare lings to spores with regards to min only. If you look at the fact that the more eco player will have more min (drones), and all gas is already being spent on muta/scourge, then getting spores makes the most sense, which then leads to a longer game naturally.
I think there is some good theorycrafting potential in here (who doesn't love theorycrafting?). A strategy that looks to reach hive tech with a 3rd will probably need to prioritize: lower unit count / higher static count, defensive posture - less freedom to harass or punish, scouting - just enough expendable units to keep track of whether your opponent is massing, expanding, or teching.
If a strategy can survive a mass ling and/or muta break at any time while staying even on bases and ahead on tech, then it's hypothetically a superior strategy to the norm if the Hive tech and strong economy make up for your insufficient units and give you a timing to strike your opponent (the duration for which they are lacking in technology).
I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
I've felt for the most part like these types of ZvZ's are somewhat the result of poor players, in that top line ZvZers could kill their opponents before the late game. However, Jaedong getting into a game like this changed my perspective. great and ZerO are also not poor ZvZers either, despite the latter's much noted woes in the match-up.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective.
On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote: I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective.
Thanks,
well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable
hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works
Well, my opinion was valid for about an hour and a half. But EffOrt hyuk'd me, and I stand corrected. A brilliant late-game-based opening from him, and a hive cameo. I'm still not sold on whether a late-game based strategy has any utility except as a cheese, but give me time, I might come around.
That's EffOrt v. Hyuk, game 3 of the CJ v. SKT second day.
I think what we saw here was a different way for someone who has the advantage to end the game. Effort was argueably in a much better position then hyuk when he began teching to hive so instead of just getting more muta/ling effort was able to get some clutch hive tech units out to make his army that much scarier.
Also did anyone notice if effort got adrenal glands? I was to busy picking my jaw up off the floor to notice.
On July 18 2010 17:02 Antiochus wrote: CJ vs SKT + Show Spoiler +
I think what we saw here was a different way for someone who has the advantage to end the game. Effort was argueably in a much better position then hyuk when he began teching to hive so instead of just getting more muta/ling effort was able to get some clutch hive tech units out to make his army that much scarier.
Also did anyone notice if effort got adrenal glands? I was to busy picking my jaw up off the floor to notice.
I think more players might try to force a longer game just to avoid the problem of it coming down to a single muta/scourge battle in a lot of cases, will be interesting if it becomes viable regularly.
One thing i have to say though is hydra's appear useless, great almost lost his lead against ZerO because of sheer immobility and just how generally ineffective they are against muta. Only useful to turn into lurkers really, especially very lategame as we saw lurkers under swarm basically has no counter other than more lurkers. I don't see a safe window to get hydra's in for them to be effective at all. I suppose on a map with easy third like Gods Garden you could go defensive spore/hydra (maybe queen too?), or maybe hydra/scourge considering the extra gas you'll have, and try to tech but whats the point when mutas would be better and would not fully give up map control. . That's what it looks like to me anyway, but i don't really know the details of ZvZ as i don't play it myself only watch it.
On July 18 2010 17:02 Antiochus wrote: CJ vs SKT + Show Spoiler +
I think what we saw here was a different way for someone who has the advantage to end the game. Effort was argueably in a much better position then hyuk when he began teching to hive so instead of just getting more muta/ling effort was able to get some clutch hive tech units out to make his army that much scarier.
Also did anyone notice if effort got adrenal glands? I was to busy picking my jaw up off the floor to notice.
It certainly was not that in my opinion,Effort took a f***** fast third and spored up immediately, his lair was pretty damn late but he had more hatches and more econ then hyuk. After he got a few mutas he imediately teched to hive. (I'd have to recheck the vod because our opinions are a bit contradictory)
In my opinion, Effort knew before the game even started that he was going to hive, pretty damn sweet strat
and yes Effort did get adrenal gland considering how fast hyuk's spawning pool went down
this is getting pretty exciting :p
On July 18 2010 18:54 infinity2k9 wrote: I think more players might try to force a longer game just to avoid the problem of it coming down to a single muta/scourge battle in a lot of cases, will be interesting if it becomes viable regularly.
One thing i have to say though is hydra's appear useless, great almost lost his lead against ZerO because of sheer immobility and just how generally ineffective they are against muta. Only useful to turn into lurkers really, especially very lategame as we saw lurkers under swarm basically has no counter other than more lurkers. I don't see a safe window to get hydra's in for them to be effective at all. I suppose on a map with easy third like Gods Garden you could go defensive spore/hydra (maybe queen too?), or maybe hydra/scourge considering the extra gas you'll have, and try to tech but whats the point when mutas would be better and would not fully give up map control. . That's what it looks like to me anyway, but i don't really know the details of ZvZ as i don't play it myself only watch it.
While that is true, Great makes hydra's when he takes his rather fast third base instead of teching, it lets him defends his bases with ease and once swarm/plague is out the mutas will have a hard time hurting the hydras. So giving up map control for a window of time before he gets defilers is okay for great because he has a fast third base. we would really need to see more games from great. Next proleague season I guess
I'm not sure if the new zvz style is here to stay; hell I'm not even sure if it counts as a style yet, but it is much more entertaining to watch. It is hard to get excited over the same two units every game, especially when it is so unpredictable. The long games are better to watch I think, and that is what I look for in progaming, a good entertaining watch.
On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote: I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective.
Thanks,
well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable
hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works
thanks for the feedback.
(need more discussion people T_T)
Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk. Thats how I see it atleast.
On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote: I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective.
Thanks,
well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable
hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works
thanks for the feedback.
(need more discussion people T_T)
Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk. Thats how I see it atleast.
yes plague of course...you need hydralurk to fight off the mutas though...you can't jsut witch into lurkerling
On July 19 2010 06:27 Ideas wrote: really nice article, thanks!
On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote: I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective.
Thanks,
well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable
hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works
thanks for the feedback.
(need more discussion people T_T)
Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk. Thats how I see it atleast.
yes plague of course...you need hydralurk to fight off the mutas though...you can't jsut witch into lurkerling
It's worth noting that one of the reasons what Effort did was so effective is that Hyuk did an in-base 12 hatch. Good call on effort's part though because the map really discourages 12hatching to your gas expo, which is probably the best thing to do against what Effort did.
hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works
The hydras seemed mostly reactionary to me; a response to his opponent teching to queens and Devs. It makes a player choosing to tech to hive instead of massing more and more mutes, would in a sense "allow" his opponent to make a tech switch to hydras. In a canonical ZvZ this tech switch would be prevented by constant pressure from the muta harass.
(Straight up hydra builds do exist, of course, but represent a completely different thought process)
hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works
The hydras seemed mostly reactionary to me; a response to his opponent teching to queens and Devs. It makes a player choosing to tech to hive instead of massing more and more mutes, would in a sense "allow" his opponent to make a tech switch to hydras. In a canonical ZvZ this tech switch would be prevented by constant pressure from the muta harass.
(Straight up hydra builds do exist, of course, but represent a completely different thought process)
I'm not so sure massing mutas would have worked as well as some suggest, ressources for ressources hydras are better then mutas (larva ressource is compensated by the fact that they are not as gas intensive) and the mutas need to strike before plague is finished otherwise it's insta-lose. and break a muta/scourge/hydra/spore defense looks pretty difficult (considering spores do ridiculous AA damage because they are normal attack type I believe)
again maybe you are right... so few games like that that we can only theorycraft
On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote: About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz: In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.
That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately,
Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.
I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell,
well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever,
Because SubtleArt divides his time on the forum between telling people how wrong they are and then asking people to do his homework for non-existant beta keys. Foucault left some big shoes to fill when he got banned. Luckily Subtle has stepped up and is now not doing any uni work at all in order to concentrate full-time all his amazing powers to telling bad posters like yourself that you're wrong because you're D-. Unless that's some other guy in which case don't think you're special just because you got something spotlighted, any D+ could have said the same thing. Including Subtle, but he was just too busy going through all those threads for his uni work that others have done for him. You just happen to have a lot of free time on your hands. Subtle could have written that article way better but he just didn't have the time.
I think that the zvz matchup is contually adding depth through innovations in mid-late game transitions. Muta micro has gotten good enough so that scourge don't work very well (hence the death of ling/scourge) and spores directly counter how good the muta micro is. This means that you force both players in the ZvZ to make better decisions in order to have an advantage going into lategame. I think that one of the keys for the player who has earlier mutalisks is they need to be able to take advantage of their ability to deny scouting to the player who is turtling with spores. I also think that this "new" style (spore+sunken with heavy drones and better econ) is a property of the maps getting even bigger, and close thirds + 1 possible choke allowing zergs to better be able to turtle behind static defenses. If we go back to many of the older maps, this kind of style wouldn't be possible at all.
Last key point: all of this really means that 12 hat is becoming the standard viable build in zvz, with all maps having ~30 second rush distances. As a prediction, if the maps keep staying the current size or larger, I would expect 9 pool/overpool to become "safe" builds, and possibly too safe (similar to 2 rax builds in TvZ); 9 pool speed should still have a place as the most aggressive build however, due to the mobility and aggressiveness that early speedlings give you.
hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..
On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote: hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..
We are up to 5 now actually, in 35 days,
I don't see why ZerO's play is not good because his ZvZ is not stellar, at least back this up telling WHY it is not that good...
Shark was not that good either but everybody stack mutas anyway
On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote: About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz: In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.
That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately,
thanks for your input
I will edit this to OP
On July 16 2010 13:25 SubtleArt wrote:
Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.
I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell,
well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever,
Because SubtleArt divides his time on the forum between telling people how wrong they are and then asking people to do his homework for non-existant beta keys. Foucault left some big shoes to fill when he got banned. Luckily Subtle has stepped up and is now not doing any uni work at all in order to concentrate full-time all his amazing powers to telling bad posters like yourself that you're wrong because you're D-. Unless that's some other guy in which case don't think you're special just because you got something spotlighted, any D+ could have said the same thing. Including Subtle, but he was just too busy going through all those threads for his uni work that others have done for him. You just happen to have a lot of free time on your hands. Subtle could have written that article way better but he just didn't have the time.
If you look at a lot of my recent posts in the strat forum though, they're pretty helpful. Also I don't care about the poster but if I think what he's saying is wrong (which in this case I do) I'll provide a reasonable argument against it (like I did).
There was another thread where I said I felt very low level players should try to restrain from offering too much strategic help and I stand by it, but in this case it's totally irrelevant.
On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote: hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..
On July 19 2010 14:07 GHOSTCLAW wrote: I think that the zvz matchup is contually adding depth through innovations in mid-late game transitions. Muta micro has gotten good enough so that scourge don't work very well (hence the death of ling/scourge) and spores directly counter how good the muta micro is. This means that you force both players in the ZvZ to make better decisions in order to have an advantage going into lategame. I think that one of the keys for the player who has earlier mutalisks is they need to be able to take advantage of their ability to deny scouting to the player who is turtling with spores. I also think that this "new" style (spore+sunken with heavy drones and better econ) is a property of the maps getting even bigger, and close thirds + 1 possible choke allowing zergs to better be able to turtle behind static defenses. If we go back to many of the older maps, this kind of style wouldn't be possible at all.
Last key point: all of this really means that 12 hat is becoming the standard viable build in zvz, with all maps having ~30 second rush distances. As a prediction, if the maps keep staying the current size or larger, I would expect 9 pool/overpool to become "safe" builds, and possibly too safe (similar to 2 rax builds in TvZ); 9 pool speed should still have a place as the most aggressive build however, due to the mobility and aggressiveness that early speedlings give you.
great post, I'm editing this in OP. indeed I had not thought of the maps getting bigger as a reason for this to be happening, interesting thoughts.
On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote: hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..
We are up to 5 now actually, in 35 days,
I don't see why ZerO's play is not good because his ZvZ is not stellar, at least back this up telling WHY it is not that good...
Shark was not that good either but everybody stack mutas anyway
Exactly. People are so ridiculously demanding. Any1 who even gets TV playtime on a pro team is absolutely amazing at starcraft in the grand scope. Zero not only does that but manages to maintain a solid winrate and be one of the pillars for his team. Truth is if you even make it on a proteam you are absolutely stellar and above thousands upon thousands of other people practicing 10 hours of starcraft a day. This guy reminds me of those people in the live report that are like "fucking awful play by _____" when they lose on a build order.
If 12 hatch becomes too popularly, it'll be punished by cheese and other ling aggressive builds. If this trend continues, i think 12 pool will become the new overpool, if not, maybe something like 9 or 10 hatch, thats if the pool can come out early enough to stop a 4 pool. I also predict 9th/10th drone scouting will be on the rise as ovis will just be too late (or inconsistent) as the only means of scouting, especially with a general increase in the eco of openings.
Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.
As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...
Giving zero's overall game results doesn't tell you what shape he's in now. Maybe the old one skirmish style zvz just didn't/doesn't suit his own style and hence his zvz was weaker. As stated before, for these players to be using this strat (forcing late game with spores, regardless of how far apart each players spire's are) in big games shows that it must've been planned for at least, if not, practiced many times over. Bisu rose to fame with his own build by abusing his incredible multitasking. Whose to say zero and/or great cant do something similar with their styles? (though it wouldn't be an overnight thing like bisu)
Finally some PLAYGY action in ZvZ. Mutas with 1 hp are just so juicy. I really hope we´ll see more ZvZ lategames because the ones you pointed out where awsome and alot cooler to watch then just muta scourge.
On July 20 2010 03:35 HeadhunteR wrote: Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.
As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...
He is not good vz..
And theres thousands of people that aren't good enough to enter courage tournaments and theres thousands that arent good enough to win 1 and theres many that arent good enough to join a pro team even after they win and theres many that arent good enough to pass the b team and theres many who arent good enough to earn a single televised game even though they make the a team.
You have absolutely no appreciation for how hard it is to even play a game for a team. Remember canata? That guy who played well and even made it to an individual league Ro8 a few years ago? SKT has given him only 2 games this year, thats how dam competitive it is. In the large scope of things Zero is hands among the best, all progamers are. You act like a 47% win rate means he's not good enough to contribute anything to the ZvZ matchup, forgetting the larger picture and how good you have to be to even achieve that.
To offer an analogy even one of the lowest scorers in the English Premier League is still REALLY REALLY fucking good to even be able to play in that league.
@OP
To offer another thought (other than this is stupid):
It feels like ZvZ still only gets to lategame if theres something weird that happens, in most cases some1 turtling with spores. The problem with this is that spores are stationary, and the other zerg can easily drone whore / expand if he sees you doing this. As good as hive tech in ZvZ is if u can reach it, its still defensive for the most part ( luring --> plague or swarm). Nothing that can really initiate an attack all that well (lings can easily shut down swarm for example). This makes me think that if both sides play right, the game is still usually decided before hive tech hits. Of course theres exceptions (like overgas vs 12h, the extra econ from 12h can compensate).
One example is yellow vs saint on destination in 2008 ish. Yellow turtles with spores out of neccesity and even though he initiates hive tech saint easily took another base and was in the driving seat the entire game.
On July 20 2010 03:35 HeadhunteR wrote: Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.
As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...
He is not good vz..
And theres thousands of people that aren't good enough to enter courage tournaments and theres thousands that arent good enough to win 1 and theres many that arent good enough to join a pro team even after they win and theres many that arent good enough to pass the b team and theres many who arent good enough to earn a single televised game even though they make the a team.
You have absolutely no appreciation for how hard it is to even play a game for a team. Remember canata? That guy who played well and even made it to an individual league Ro8 a few years ago? SKT has given him only 2 games this year, thats how dam competitive it is. In the large scope of things Zero is hands among the best, all progamers are. You act like a 47% win rate means he's not good enough to contribute anything to the ZvZ matchup, forgetting the larger picture and how good you have to be to even achieve that.
To offer an analogy even one of the lowest scorers in the English Premier League is still REALLY REALLY fucking good to even be able to play in that league.
@OP
To offer another thought (other than this is stupid):
It feels like ZvZ still only gets to lategame if theres something weird that happens, in most cases some1 turtling with spores. The problem with this is that spores are stationary, and the other zerg can easily drone whore / expand if he sees you doing this. As good as hive tech in ZvZ is if u can reach it, its still defensive for the most part ( luring --> plague or swarm). Nothing that can really initiate an attack all that well (lings can easily shut down swarm for example). This makes me think that if both sides play right, the game is still usually decided before hive tech hits. Of course theres exceptions (like overgas vs 12h, the extra econ from 12h can compensate).
One example is yellow vs saint on destination in 2008 ish. Yellow turtles with spores out of neccesity and even though he initiates hive tech saint easily took another base and was in the driving seat the entire game.
I think you make it sound like taking the third for the other players is piece of cake,
if you are not playing like effort you have put down 1 or 2 spores in all of you bases, yes your mutas will be a it later and you won't have as many as your opponent. BUT, considering you have spores your bases are pretty hard to harass. you can therefore harass your opponent mineral lines and third base much more easily then your opponent can, and defending 3 bases with just a muta cloud and no spores is a pain. I'm not saying taking the third is impossible but it might be a bit harder then you make it seem.(unless that's judgement day, but in that case you also have your third so...)
(also, while ling shut down swarm, lurkers shut down lings so I think you can still be kinda agressive with your hydralurk force, if you see your opponent switching to lurker ling and not adding on the muta count then you need to do the same switch too)
Edit: and as Subtle said, ZerO's ZvZ might not be stellar but that does not mean he can't innovate, Shark was not even on the A-team yet made one of the most important innovation in BW
On July 20 2010 03:35 HeadhunteR wrote: Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.
As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...
He is not good vz..
And theres thousands of people that aren't good enough to enter courage tournaments and theres thousands that arent good enough to win 1 and theres many that arent good enough to join a pro team even after they win and theres many that arent good enough to pass the b team and theres many who arent good enough to earn a single televised game even though they make the a team.
You have absolutely no appreciation for how hard it is to even play a game for a team. Remember canata? That guy who played well and even made it to an individual league Ro8 a few years ago? SKT has given him only 2 games this year, thats how dam competitive it is. In the large scope of things Zero is hands among the best, all progamers are. You act like a 47% win rate means he's not good enough to contribute anything to the ZvZ matchup, forgetting the larger picture and how good you have to be to even achieve that.
To offer an analogy even one of the lowest scorers in the English Premier League is still REALLY REALLY fucking good to even be able to play in that league.
@OP
To offer another thought (other than this is stupid):
It feels like ZvZ still only gets to lategame if theres something weird that happens, in most cases some1 turtling with spores. The problem with this is that spores are stationary, and the other zerg can easily drone whore / expand if he sees you doing this. As good as hive tech in ZvZ is if u can reach it, its still defensive for the most part ( luring --> plague or swarm). Nothing that can really initiate an attack all that well (lings can easily shut down swarm for example). This makes me think that if both sides play right, the game is still usually decided before hive tech hits. Of course theres exceptions (like overgas vs 12h, the extra econ from 12h can compensate).
One example is yellow vs saint on destination in 2008 ish. Yellow turtles with spores out of neccesity and even though he initiates hive tech saint easily took another base and was in the driving seat the entire game.
I think you make it sound like taking the third for the other players is piece of cake,
if you are not playing like effort you have put down 1 or 2 spores in all of you bases, yes your mutas will be a it later and you won't have as many as your opponent. BUT, considering you have spores your bases are pretty hard to harass. you can therefore harass your opponent mineral lines and third base much more easily then your opponent can, and defending 3 bases with just a muta cloud and no spores is a pain. I'm not saying taking the third is impossible but it might be a bit harder then you make it seem.(unless that's judgement day, but in that case you also have your third so...)
(also, while ling shut down swarm, lurkers shut down lings so I think you can still be kinda agressive with your hydralurk force, if you see your opponent switching to lurker ling and not adding on the muta count then you need to do the same switch too)
Edit: and as Subtle said, ZerO's ZvZ might not be stellar but that does not mean he can't innovate, Shark was not even on the A-team yet made one of the most important innovation in BW
Yea, I'm just saying spores are generally built when the other's muta clump is larger, so during the time that said person has a higher muta count he can usually take a 3rd no problem. Logically the guy with spores could harass random places while he builds up but the problem is mutas have moving shot so a guy could chase the other guys smaller muta numbers and pick many off while they're retreating. This generally means you can't really move far past your spores unless your muta count is equal or higher.
Heres the game I'm talking about btw, it demonstrates this as well as what I was talking about. On top of that its just a really nice game to watch. Right now it says its not working on youtube so hopefully it might work soon. Enjoy
hmm, I guess harassment and attacks on the third comes down to base layout
good infolords and infolings placement is probably crucial if you are trying to do that, keeping track of your opponent's ball position will make harassment on the mineral lines possible, we'll see how it develops. Can't wait for the next ZvZ
On July 19 2010 05:53 Iplaythings wrote: Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk. Thats how I see it atleast.
It's going to become obvious fairly quickly that ultraling is a waste of resources.
In one of those games posted in the OP a lurker pops ~7 weakened lings in one shot before they could pull off a surround. Even with ultras distracting lurkers their splash cone (that does full damage) will still kill off lings too quickly.
If any zerg is at four bases and has Hive access they'll be much better off trying to support Ultralurker than Ultraling. That combo is less volatile to the effects of plague and is just as immune to dswarm.
Ultimately though late game ZvZ is going to be in for a very annoying teething stage as players figure out how many defilers and queens they should have to support whatever their core army is whether it is Devo/Muta ling, muta/hydra/lurker(ling), or Ultralurker/hydra.
On July 19 2010 05:53 Iplaythings wrote: Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk. Thats how I see it atleast.
It's going to become obvious fairly quickly that ultraling is a waste of resources.
In one of those games posted in the OP a lurker pops ~7 weakened lings in one shot before they could pull off a surround. Even with ultras distracting lurkers their splash cone (that does full damage) will still kill off lings too quickly.
If any zerg is at four bases and has Hive access they'll be much better off trying to support Ultralurker than Ultraling. That combo is less volatile to the effects of plague and is just as immune to dswarm.
Ultimately though late game ZvZ is going to be in for a very annoying teething stage as players figure out how many defilers and queens they should have to support whatever their core army is whether it is Devo/Muta ling, muta/hydra/lurker(ling), or Ultralurker/hydra.
I must say that i agree, ultraling looks like a waste of ressources against lurker/ling, problem is that lings> ultras at same cost(I think, 16 lings vs 1 ultra) so you can't go pure ultras. ultra/hydra looks doable but once swarm is up it gets raped hard by ultra/ling(i think). sounds like a complicated RPS. wonder if surprise tech switches will be the norm...
edit: and ultra lurker has to be pretty F******* expensive
I remember seeing Zero use queens a year ago and thinking 'ZvZ is going to change... maybe not right away, but soon.' He's done it quite a few times since, I'm glad the other zergs are finally taking an interest. ZvZ might actually become the most interesting mirror matchup (as it was clearly meant to be ^^).
The thing about the EffOrt v. Hyuk game is that it didn't demonstrate the functionality of anything new, really, except that two hatch/pool/hatch is a viable build. It's still an open question which other maps that's a strategy that makes any sense. If the player doesn't take another expansion with his third hatch, then you do only have to defend two bases though, so it's possible.
But furthermore, I'm not sure EffOrt intended to use anything other than muta/ling/scourge. That could be because he had a clear route to winning, but I'm never convinced that hydras, lurkers, or ultras are a viable alternative to muta/ling. I could see EffOrt going to get a queen, because he's already got the tech, but I think the proxy nydus was more of a mental thing, like a manner cc or hatch, to fire up his team. Muta/ling is so mobile, and if you've got enough mutalisks, then it's hard to see what zerg unit is a suitable alternative.
Zero vs Great was AWESOME. Moletrap was speechless, hah.
Also, I've been waiting to see a cheesy Nydus since I started watching pro BW.
Props to the progamers for finally developing a new way to spice up what has (for a long time) been the stalest and most formulaic of matchups. It's been a long time coming.
On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote: About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz: In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.
That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately,
thanks for your input
I will edit this to OP
On July 16 2010 13:25 SubtleArt wrote:
Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.
I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell,
well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever,
Because SubtleArt divides his time on the forum between telling people how wrong they are and then asking people to do his homework for non-existant beta keys. Foucault left some big shoes to fill when he got banned. Luckily Subtle has stepped up and is now not doing any uni work at all in order to concentrate full-time all his amazing powers to telling bad posters like yourself that you're wrong because you're D-. Unless that's some other guy in which case don't think you're special just because you got something spotlighted, any D+ could have said the same thing. Including Subtle, but he was just too busy going through all those threads for his uni work that others have done for him. You just happen to have a lot of free time on your hands. Subtle could have written that article way better but he just didn't have the time.
If you look at a lot of my recent posts in the strat forum though, they're pretty helpful. Also I don't care about the poster but if I think what he's saying is wrong (which in this case I do) I'll provide a reasonable argument against it (like I did).
There was another thread where I said I felt very low level players should try to restrain from offering too much strategic help and I stand by it, but in this case it's totally irrelevant.
On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote: hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..
Of course you are quiet correct and I apologise. I would have replied sooner but I've been on another forum and absolutely no one is willing to help me with this essay I need to hand in. I've promised them a free beta key for sc2, and while I imagine there aren't as many sc2 players there as there are here I would have thought that with such an exciting new game at least some of them would have been interested.
So far all that's happened is that I've been mocked and abused. As this other forum is such a reasonable site of mature people this took me totally by surprise. Also some of those ungrateful bastards are claiming that I don't have a beta key and that my thread is a homework thread because I'm lazy. This is totally not true! I happen to be anything but lazy, as anyone can see if they look through my recent posts in the General and Broodwar forum here. I think I offer really solid advice. In fact recently I suggested that new players in the General forum shouldn't give advice and should hold back from it, and I stand by that comment. Of course here it's totally irrelevant.
Thank you also for that link that was evidently written by a 1st year Philosophy student. I had no idea what an ad hominem attack was, but now that I do I see that it was most unfair of me to attack someone as distinguished and helpful as yourself.
Lastly I agree that HeadhunteR's post was bad. I would have simply taken your word for it, because you are usually correct in these matters, being an expert as you are in sorting bad posters from good ones. I also note that he disagreed with the OP without asking his current rank. This was clearly a mistake as you have shown conclusively that every post should refer to someone's iccup rank, particularly in the strategy forum. I won't ask yours, because I don't wish to take on airs and graces of a successful poster - I am still learning and I am very grateful you have taken time out of your busy homework thread/strategy forum advice time to help me personally.
On July 20 2010 16:50 ReketSomething wrote: Man beautiful! Just watched these vods and read the article and it was awesome ^^ I have to say that zero is starting this trend not great though.
well they both are, and I quoted great because his interviews are mega-baller
Wow, exciting new developments. I remember when I interviewed Testie back in 2005-6ish and asked whether he thought scourge no muta was possible. He did.
@tree.hugger: going into late game, pure mutaling just doesn't cut it. Zvz will always have a mutaling early-mid game, no doubt about it, but once defilers kick in, hydralurk is all but invincible against it. Swarm protects hydra from muta AND deters ovis while lurks mop up lings. Add to that that most likely queens will have been gotten along the way, ensnared muta can be plagued and chased down with speed hydra easily.
On July 20 2010 11:33 tree.hugger wrote: The thing about the EffOrt v. Hyuk game is that it didn't demonstrate the functionality of anything new, really, except that two hatch/pool/hatch is a viable build. It's still an open question which other maps that's a strategy that makes any sense. If the player doesn't take another expansion with his third hatch, then you do only have to defend two bases though, so it's possible.
But furthermore, I'm not sure EffOrt intended to use anything other than muta/ling/scourge. That could be because he had a clear route to winning, but I'm never convinced that hydras, lurkers, or ultras are a viable alternative to muta/ling. I could see EffOrt going to get a queen, because he's already got the tech, but I think the proxy nydus was more of a mental thing, like a manner cc or hatch, to fire up his team. Muta/ling is so mobile, and if you've got enough mutalisks, then it's hard to see what zerg unit is a suitable alternative.
Hive tech supported Hydra is better than Hive tech supported muta.
Devourers are just as beneficial at supporting hydras against mutas because spores greatly amplify damage and hydras shoot so fast and have enough range that their attack is just as effective as glave wurm bouncing on targets.
Defilers with Plague neuters both hydras and mutas but Hydras can be protected by swarm while mutas can't.
The reason mutas became the defacto unit in the early days of mutaling vs hydraling battles was the superior mobility. That mobility becomes mute for the hydra user on defense thanks to Nydus Canals. While not as useful for offense the threat of hydra mobility enhanced by Nydus exists.
On top of all that the hydra user has easy access to lurker tech which reduces the threat of cracklingDswarm greatly.
I've been thinking a bit about this, and i think the best way to play mutaless ZvZ would be queen/ensnare plus scourge.
Let's just assume both openings for each player is normal until lair, both on 2 bases etc. Get spire at normal time, but also get queen's nest. You won't be saving mins for muta's so get evo and spores at whatever a good time would be for it. Then once spire is done get scourge only, and play defensively until you get ensnare out. This is probably the risky part as you give up map control, however with the mineral advantage you have you can build a lot more speedlings and use them as distraction and to keep a small amount of pressure on them. Once ensnare is out you have a clear advantage and can be chasing their mutas down and using your heavy speedling count to push in and possibly win, can use any extra energy with the queens to ensnare their lings too even. Then you are open to tech to hive, get a 3rd or do whatever at this point. I think this could be refined into an exact build with a right number of queens and details like that. The main advantage with this is the resources, while your gas use might turn out about equal you will definitely have more minerals.
The disadvantages being that possibly vulnerable period i mentioned, good multitask/micro needed to ensnare/scourge while using lings effectively (although probably no more than regular muta/scourge/ling?) and the reliance on your opponent to play standard despite probably scouting your queens nest and seeing spores. Anyone got any thoughts on this? I don't have the mechanics to play ZvZ myself but just theoretically i can see it as a viable alternative to standard play. The scourge count should be enough to counter the muta on its own until ensnare turns the tables, but someone experienced directly in this matchup might be able to point out a hole in this.
There's one flaw in that.. You still need muta to finish the off scourged muta. Using 2 scourge per muta negates the cost effectiveness of it (especially if your scourge gets sniped before ensnare) and on top of that, scourge cant attack ground and therefore are all but useless even if you manage to kill all your opponents muta
I was working on the premise 2 scourge per muta is a good trade, even if we assume some are killed, single-time scourged muta's are useless for attacking a spore defended base anyway in which case they completed their objective. The fact you are saving 75 minerals each time means you can have a far superior speedling count (maybe even tech up to cracklings once you have advantage, considering you already have queen's nest), which is what wins you the ground battle.
with those two (very early) spores you're opponent isn't getting, he can build a hatch, meaning more drones more drones, meaning more ling/sunk as he'll have the larvae advantage which in zvz is almost always better than a pure mineral advantage gas-wise, you must make 12 pairs of scourge and he must make 12 muta before you break even on the gas cost of the nest, ensnare and ONE queen. It'll also be very hard to get one scourge per muta cos they'll be stacked and you need the extra apm to actually find, keep track of, and then target individualy with scourge. Its not like vessel cloud that is spread nicely for you for the terran's convenience. Also, a faster teching z will have muta/scourge while you only have 1-2 queens while spire is building leaving you very vulnerable if your opponent just takes a few hits on his muta to scourge your queen. 1 queen is a much much greater loss than a muta in this situation, arguably worth 2 if you consider the cost of the queens nest and ensnare. I'm all for queens, but mutas are just more dynamic and flexible for the cost as an early mid game unit. Once you have mutas out, then get spores to defend while teching queens.
On July 22 2010 03:50 DarkSaieden wrote: with those two (very early) spores you're opponent isn't getting, he can build a hatch, meaning more drones more drones, meaning more ling/sunk as he'll have the larvae advantage which in zvz is almost always better than a pure mineral advantage gas-wise, you must make 12 pairs of scourge and he must make 12 muta before you break even on the gas cost of the nest, ensnare and ONE queen. It'll also be very hard to get one scourge per muta cos they'll be stacked and you need the extra apm to actually find, keep track of, and then target individualy with scourge. Its not like vessel cloud that is spread nicely for you for the terran's convenience. Also, a faster teching z will have muta/scourge while you only have 1-2 queens while spire is building leaving you very vulnerable if your opponent just takes a few hits on his muta to scourge your queen. 1 queen is a much much greater loss than a muta in this situation, arguably worth 2 if you consider the cost of the queens nest and ensnare. I'm all for queens, but mutas are just more dynamic and flexible for the cost as an early mid game unit. Once you have mutas out, then get spores to defend while teching queens.
I agree... scourge/queen looks good on paper but is nearly impossible to do without dieing first with today's level of muta micro. also cloning will be very complicated. I think the queen gets out too late for you to hold off with just scourge. (queen needs queen nest, plus ensnare research, very long T_T)
The timing is all wrong and pure scourge is too easy to snipe until you get enough energy for ensnare. Getting Queen's nest that early means death. Ultimately you have to build up mutas before gettings queens nest. The difference of 10 mutas vs 6 mutas and a queen gathering energy is very risky compared to 24 mutas vs 20 mutas and two queens.
Maybe there is a way to support a scourge attrition build. Strictly speaking if you build a hatch first with queens nest ASAP afterwards. Then get a spire midway into the nest's morphing. Research Ensnare then get a queen. With the spare minerals you might have on hand get more lings or build spore colonies depending on the opponent's emphasis. By the time ensnare is researched the queen has a few seconds before it has 75 energy and the spire will be ready to morph scourge.
After all that is achieved maybe scourge attriton can work but the issue is how to get there. Spore colonies are really powerful but their inability to chase down mutas is a big flaw with this idea. You need to build up a lot of colonies or you need hydras (flawed because you most likely are going to have to use them without upgrades for a long time) or mutas (probably the most practical option on any map.)
Im not sure if this is bump worthy... But what do people think about the strategy that Zero played in This game. Going strait to devourers and skipping queens? Sorry if this wasn't a good post...
Also of note what did happen to this revolution; there was alot of talk about a big incoming ZvZ revolution a few months back, but im not really sure hive tech type play has gotten that much more popular.
Did this fizzle out some or do you guys still think there is a good chance we will see this ZvZ revolution?
On November 29 2010 16:17 flamewheel wrote: Oh man swanized, I remember reading this post and being like "I approve." Now it's clicked that you were the one who wrote that!
Lategame ZvZs are awesome, and I really hope to see more of them.
lol, I was like "wth this got bumped?"
I just wish late-game ZvZs picked up at the same pace then last season, maybe zero will feel in an experimental mood soon?
The tipping point when I thought "Oh shit, I don't understand what I'm watching at all, this isn't ZvZ" was in EffOrt vs. Hyuk. Some day, I hope to see ZvZs play out like that as a standard. Or Zero vs. Great. ZvZs are really exciting after the muta stage, it is quite lamentable that any developments in late game ZvZ have stagnated. If EffOrt didn't just retire, I'm sure he'd have spearheaded any new developments in heavy eco, late spire play.
The new maps seem to support this kind of play, so I'm not sure why we're not seeing more late-game oriented ZvZ play. It seems like we'll have to wait for ZerO's new innovations, though it seems he's doing pretty well in regular ZvZ which means he has less of a need to develop new strategies to deal with his weaknesses. Yeah, do hope ZerO experiments more.
On November 29 2010 16:05 L_Master wrote: Also of note what did happen to this revolution; there was alot of talk about a big incoming ZvZ revolution a few months back, but im not really sure hive tech type play has gotten that much more popular.
Did this fizzle out some or do you guys still think there is a good chance we will see this ZvZ revolution?
It will never become mainstream simply because for late game to happen in that match the games need to be pretty damn close AND neither player must take a gamble up to a certain point (unless that gamble either fails and/or somehow keeps the two players with about equal chances to win).
The kinds of games that this "newish" style will replace is those where tons of mutas are just going in circles and neither player is willing to taking any chances. Getting a queen nest and going queens or hive should prevail from now on. Hopefully it will, anyway.
On November 29 2010 22:35 POWEROUTAGE wrote: The tipping point when I thought "Oh shit, I don't understand what I'm watching at all, this isn't ZvZ" was in EffOrt vs. Hyuk. Some day, I hope to see ZvZs play out like that as a standard. Or Zero vs. Great. ZvZs are really exciting after the muta stage, it is quite lamentable that any developments in late game ZvZ have stagnated. If EffOrt didn't just retire, I'm sure he'd have spearheaded any new developments in heavy eco, late spire play.
The new maps seem to support this kind of play, so I'm not sure why we're not seeing more late-game oriented ZvZ play. It seems like we'll have to wait for ZerO's new innovations, though it seems he's doing pretty well in regular ZvZ which means he has less of a need to develop new strategies to deal with his weaknesses. Yeah, do hope ZerO experiments more.
I think the retirement of Effort was Saviors last act. If not, like you said, ZvZ would have evolved and Effort was the only one with a good record vs Flash, even better than JD's. He could've turned the world around.
Alright... apparently no one responded to my bump, so ill go ahead and just say whats on my mind. It has been shown that adding on Queens is amazingly effective as a possible transition after mutas. However it seems like Devourers as a possible transition after mutas is also highly effective. As we saw Zero do against HoeJJa, Devourers help with the muta battles a TON. It is true though that the battle has to get far enough to start adding on the AOE units, like Devourers, Queens and Defilers. Unfortunately these late game ZvZ's are too rare, but when it gets to hive tech ZvZ becomes amazingly dynamic, and definitely my favorite match up.
Why did Effort retire BTW? I know he said that he needed a break, but has he said/anything else been said about it? Hopefully he will return!
On November 30 2010 03:55 rigelq wrote: Alright... apparently no one responded to my bump, so ill go ahead and just say whats on my mind. It has been shown that adding on Queens is amazingly effective as a possible transition after mutas. However it seems like Devourers as a possible transition after mutas is also highly effective. As we saw Zero do against HoeJJa, Devourers help with the muta battles a TON. It is true though that the battle has to get far enough to start adding on the AOE units, like Devourers, Queens and Defilers. Unfortunately these late game ZvZ's are too rare, but when it gets to hive tech ZvZ becomes amazingly dynamic, and definitely my favorite match up.
Why did Effort retire BTW? I know he said that he needed a break, but has he said/anything else been said about it? Hopefully he will return!
I guess he just figured he beat Flash so many times that there was nothing left to do but retire.
Personally, I would love to see lots of late-game ZvZ, just because I think it's just as entertaining as late game TvT. That's not sarcasm, either; I think TvT in Proleague games are very exciting and probably my favorite mirror-match to watch.
On November 29 2010 22:35 POWEROUTAGE wrote: The tipping point when I thought "Oh shit, I don't understand what I'm watching at all, this isn't ZvZ" was in EffOrt vs. Hyuk. Some day, I hope to see ZvZs play out like that as a standard. Or Zero vs. Great. ZvZs are really exciting after the muta stage, it is quite lamentable that any developments in late game ZvZ have stagnated. If EffOrt didn't just retire, I'm sure he'd have spearheaded any new developments in heavy eco, late spire play.
The new maps seem to support this kind of play, so I'm not sure why we're not seeing more late-game oriented ZvZ play. It seems like we'll have to wait for ZerO's new innovations, though it seems he's doing pretty well in regular ZvZ which means he has less of a need to develop new strategies to deal with his weaknesses. Yeah, do hope ZerO experiments more.
I think the retirement of Effort was Saviors last act. If not, like you said, ZvZ would have evolved and Effort was the only one with a good record vs Flash, even better than JD's. He could've turned the world around.
how does effort have a record vs flash better than jaedong?
Apparently he doesnt. I just looked it up. Effort is 42.9% vs Flash, and Jaedong is 46.5%. However Effort was definitely one of the few people who could give Flash trouble.
the funny thing is sc2 is exactly the same. very similar in terms of game time and gameplay. Nerve wrecking, fast paced, and quick. However, some matches can be epic (MasterAsia vs Catz)!
On December 02 2010 11:55 Tomken wrote: It's sick it took 12 years to exploit the game fully, sc2 has already been almost exploited. T_t
Im going to go ahead and say that neither BW nor SC2 are in any way fully exploited. People are still discovering new timings in BW frequently. As for SC2... I think in some ways its still in its infancy really. With better maps that actually let you get a 3rd base I think a TON of new strategies will evolve for SC2.
On November 30 2010 18:51 zak wrote: the funny thing is sc2 is exactly the same. very similar in terms of game time and gameplay. Nerve wrecking, fast paced, and quick. However, some matches can be epic (MasterAsia vs Catz)!
Please stop comparing a game that just came out when BW has been evolving for these past ten years.
At the time I'm writing this, StarCraft BW's general strategy is technically locked at it's final state. ZvZ has little options, as Ling>Muta is the only unit composition one allows. Teching slowly is seen rarely. TvZ has a basic 1 rax FE SK Terran (optional tanks), or mech play. PvZ is obvious as it stands, with forge FE into corsair play, transitioning into mass gateway units/with possible reavers against the Zerg army.
On December 03 2010 15:52 TriniMasta wrote: At the time I'm writing this, StarCraft BW's general strategy is technically locked at it's final state. ZvZ has little options, as Ling>Muta is the only unit composition one allows. Teching slowly is seen rarely. TvZ has a basic 1 rax FE SK Terran (optional tanks), or mech play. PvZ is obvious as it stands, with forge FE into corsair play, transitioning into mass gateway units/with possible reavers against the Zerg army.
ahh 12 years...
You have to look more at the particulars than that. "FE, corsairs, ground army" is a very general stategy description. The game at this point is most variant in the exact tech timings, the expansion patterns and the army movement patterns concocted to gain map control/initiative. You should pay less attention to the kinds of units they're making and whether or not they opt to take their nat quickly, and more attention to the particular number of units that are on the minimap and the roles they're playing. It's fairly complex, hard to execute perfectly, and everybody has different ideas about what the best method is for each matchup. That's the most interesting part of the game to me.
2010-12-25, PDPop MSL Group C Winners' Game, Soulkey vs. Great Soulkey puts up 4 spores and goes for Greater Spire. Great decides to expand with defiler and hydra tech. Great ends up containing Soulkey pretty hard despite a very nice series of air and ground harasses by Soulkey Great attempts to proxy hatch but fails, and in the end wins with brute force as he gets 7 base and ultras.
EDIT: the thing about this game is, it only took a small nudge to pretty much force both players into hive tech / more bases. Soulkey made a couple extra spores and great's spire was early, so there ended up being no game-winning muta clashes before both players had a chance to tech up.
Not sure why zergs don't expand the way great does. It seems in the couple of games I've seen of hive transition vs hydra + 3rd base transition, great always seem to get a huge advantage. Sure, devours and queens hard counter mutas, but not enough to make up for 2-base vs 3-base disadvantage.
If hydras actually become standard in zvz I hope that Tsunami comes out of retirement to laugh at all the haters who told him zvz was muta ling only period!
ZvZ has a lot of potential for endgame scenarios. Looking at TvT, It used to be just Tank/Goliath, now TvT is the only Mirror Matchup that practically use all of its units.
Honestly I don't see why Soulkey kept trying to be so aggressive with Guardians. In great's interview, the reporter told him that he thought guardians were a good idea and great responded with no. Watching the game definitely supports this theory, since this lategame style that great is employing is pretty all-around, and guardians cost so much more to build (and are tough to defend) than the scourge used to kill them.
An enjoyable game, but it was dragged out for about twenty minutes. It's just that breaking lurkers with swarm is pretty much impossible without ultras... or queens.
On December 26 2010 02:07 flamewheel wrote: Honestly I don't see why Soulkey kept trying to be so aggressive with Guardians. In great's interview, the reporter told him that he thought guardians were a good idea and great responded with no. Watching the game definitely supports this theory, since this lategame style that great is employing is pretty all-around, and guardians cost so much more to build (and are tough to defend) than the scourge used to kill them.
An enjoyable game, but it was dragged out for about twenty minutes. It's just that breaking lurkers with swarm is pretty much impossible without ultras... or queens.
I thought the guards were good the first time he used hem (like he morphed 6 guards behind the natural), however after that initial harass the guard harassment was dumb
I also liked later on when he kept like 2 guards with his army and sniped defilers with them
I think that its either Great, Soulkey or ZerO will invent the most optimal way of going straight to late game while defending against Mutas. I really want to see a spireless +1 Carapace Zergling while building up spores into Spire sniping so both players are forced to play ground based OR something like an Overlord drop into spire sniping build.
On December 26 2010 03:07 Xiphos wrote: I think that its either Great, Soulkey or ZerO will invent the most optimal way of going straight to late game while defending against Mutas. I really want to see a spireless +1 Carapace Zergling while building up spores into Spire sniping so both players are forced to play ground based OR something like an Overlord drop into spire sniping build.
probably not great, Great's late-game ZvZ is so far ahead of everyone else (though zero can give him a ruin for his money) it's not even funny but he never was all that good to get the game to hive (coincidentally all of his hive tech ZvZs happened against the Woongjin zergs who are the best at getting ZvZs to late-game)
On December 26 2010 03:07 Xiphos wrote: I think that its either Great, Soulkey or ZerO will invent the most optimal way of going straight to late game while defending against Mutas. I really want to see a spireless +1 Carapace Zergling while building up spores into Spire sniping so both players are forced to play ground based OR something like an Overlord drop into spire sniping build.
I suppose if you skipped spire, you could go lategame with spores, which probably cost about as much as mutas. Economically, you'd initially be at a disadvantage because your opponent can take a third, but you can catch up by saturating your natural with drones, which will come earlier than your opponent. You'd then probably have to wait for devourers for map control, and then you could take a third(or maybe double expo because they have to spore up) and proceed to macro. How to go about playing ZvZ in the lategame is what I want to find out though. Oh and you can always go for Zero's queens strategy for getting to hive.
I was thinking a more of "step-by-step" at the moment with Mutas and then getting the Queen's Nest for Queen's ensnare other Mutalisk. If this becomes a standard, then we can talk about Hive play being more "viable". The Queens is not only good to slow down the opponent's Mutalisks but also it can upgrade Spawn Broodling which can be detrimental in defeating lategame Cows. (GOSH I can't believe that I am saying these things in ZvZ lol).
I feel that Spawn broodlings is one of the most underused spells... Get 5 queens and suddenly you can take out a chunk of tanks with no cost, high templars good bye, Lurkers / ultras can't do anything.
On December 26 2010 07:19 TheNessman wrote: I feel that Spawn broodlings is one of the most underused spells... Get 5 queens and suddenly you can take out a chunk of tanks with no cost, high templars good bye, Lurkers / ultras can't do anything.
Queens I say!
Queens are useful, but keep in mind you're pretty much paying the cost of a muta for something that'll only be useful in maybe 2 minutes. But yeah, free lurk/ultra kill is always good. It's probably the best way to deal with ultralisks, considering swarm>hydras and lings aren't gonna do that much against +4 ultras.
On December 26 2010 07:19 TheNessman wrote: I feel that Spawn broodlings is one of the most underused spells... Get 5 queens and suddenly you can take out a chunk of tanks with no cost, high templars good bye, Lurkers / ultras can't do anything.
Queens I say!
Queens are useful, but keep in mind you're pretty much paying the cost of a muta for something that'll only be useful in maybe 2 minutes. But yeah, free lurk/ultra kill is always good. It's probably the best way to deal with ultralisks, considering swarm>hydras and lings aren't gonna do that much against +4 ultras.
yeah but early on you're getting the queen for ensnare not broodlings so it's gonna start being useful really quickly
On December 26 2010 07:19 TheNessman wrote: I feel that Spawn broodlings is one of the most underused spells... Get 5 queens and suddenly you can take out a chunk of tanks with no cost, high templars good bye, Lurkers / ultras can't do anything.
Queens I say!
Queens are useful, but keep in mind you're pretty much paying the cost of a muta for something that'll only be useful in maybe 2 minutes. But yeah, free lurk/ultra kill is always good. It's probably the best way to deal with ultralisks, considering swarm>hydras and lings aren't gonna do that much against +4 ultras.
yeah but early on you're getting the queen for ensnare not broodlings so it's gonna start being useful really quickly
True, but you need maybe 2 queens for ensnare, and you need maybe 6 to start sniping gas units. In fact, you might need a 'vessel cloud' of queens to efficiently do it. Then again, vessels also are a pretty big cost that doesn't start to pay off for a bit, aren't they? The big question is, how do you transition without screwing yourself over by creating a disadvantage? The answer is probably either queens or skipping mutas.
On December 26 2010 07:19 TheNessman wrote: I feel that Spawn broodlings is one of the most underused spells... Get 5 queens and suddenly you can take out a chunk of tanks with no cost, high templars good bye, Lurkers / ultras can't do anything.
Queens I say!
Queens are useful, but keep in mind you're pretty much paying the cost of a muta for something that'll only be useful in maybe 2 minutes. But yeah, free lurk/ultra kill is always good. It's probably the best way to deal with ultralisks, considering swarm>hydras and lings aren't gonna do that much against +4 ultras.
yeah but early on you're getting the queen for ensnare not broodlings so it's gonna start being useful really quickly
True, but you need maybe 2 queens for ensnare, and you need maybe 6 to start sniping gas units. In fact, you might need a 'vessel cloud' of queens to efficiently do it. Then again, vessels also are a pretty big cost that doesn't start to pay off for a bit, aren't they? The big question is, how do you transition without screwing yourself over by creating a disadvantage? The answer is probably either queens or skipping mutas.
On December 25 2010 23:50 Hautamaki wrote: If hydras actually become standard in zvz I hope that Tsunami comes out of retirement to laugh at all the haters who told him zvz was muta ling only period!
Haha, I thought it was he and redcloak who argued for hydra/queen back in like...1.07? XD
As tremendously awesome as lategame zvzs are, it can't be achieved 100% of the time. In pvz, if you forge fe you basically force the third base or an allin, in zvz I'm not sure if you can force hive tech via static defenses on maps that don't have a really close third base. It's also one of the reasons why I don't play zvz, because against a competent opponent I will never have a game longer than 12 minutes.
On February 14 2011 21:58 swanized wrote: this thread never dies lol
I'm quite eager to see great's builds for the MSL finals, hopefully he found new ways of forcing hive...
The only way that will happen is if he has a Bo advantage and he balances out well his lings/spores and sunkens . Even then Hydra is pretty confidant in his Muta/scourge micro as shown against Jaedong and will not allow the game to go to Hive .... and even if he did great will put himself at a disadvantage allowing Hydra to expand all over the map and tech at will without investing money in static defences . Though opening with some 3 hatch build can set you pretty good macro wise for hive play .
On February 15 2011 06:27 pvzvt wrote: the game between zero and great u got mixed with the names and the blue circles are zero's bases zero won that game
The pics in the OP are not from their most recent encounter, they had a Hive tech game on Triathlon before.
On February 15 2011 06:27 pvzvt wrote: the game between zero and great u got mixed with the names and the blue circles are zero's bases zero won that game
EPT
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