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On November 29 2010 22:35 POWEROUTAGE wrote:
The tipping point when I thought "Oh shit, I don't understand what I'm watching at all, this isn't ZvZ" was in EffOrt vs. Hyuk. Some day, I hope to see ZvZs play out like that as a standard. Or Zero vs. Great. ZvZs are really exciting after the muta stage, it is quite lamentable that any developments in late game ZvZ have stagnated. If EffOrt didn't just retire, I'm sure he'd have spearheaded any new developments in heavy eco, late spire play.
The new maps seem to support this kind of play, so I'm not sure why we're not seeing more late-game oriented ZvZ play. It seems like we'll have to wait for ZerO's new innovations, though it seems he's doing pretty well in regular ZvZ which means he has less of a need to develop new strategies to deal with his weaknesses. Yeah, do hope ZerO experiments more.
I think the retirement of Effort was Saviors last act. If not, like you said, ZvZ would have evolved and Effort was the only one with a good record vs Flash, even better than JD's. He could've turned the world around.
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Alright... apparently no one responded to my bump, so ill go ahead and just say whats on my mind. It has been shown that adding on Queens is amazingly effective as a possible transition after mutas. However it seems like Devourers as a possible transition after mutas is also highly effective. As we saw Zero do against HoeJJa, Devourers help with the muta battles a TON. It is true though that the battle has to get far enough to start adding on the AOE units, like Devourers, Queens and Defilers. Unfortunately these late game ZvZ's are too rare, but when it gets to hive tech ZvZ becomes amazingly dynamic, and definitely my favorite match up.
Why did Effort retire BTW? I know he said that he needed a break, but has he said/anything else been said about it? Hopefully he will return!
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On November 30 2010 03:55 rigelq wrote:
Alright... apparently no one responded to my bump, so ill go ahead and just say whats on my mind. It has been shown that adding on Queens is amazingly effective as a possible transition after mutas. However it seems like Devourers as a possible transition after mutas is also highly effective. As we saw Zero do against HoeJJa, Devourers help with the muta battles a TON. It is true though that the battle has to get far enough to start adding on the AOE units, like Devourers, Queens and Defilers. Unfortunately these late game ZvZ's are too rare, but when it gets to hive tech ZvZ becomes amazingly dynamic, and definitely my favorite match up.
Why did Effort retire BTW? I know he said that he needed a break, but has he said/anything else been said about it? Hopefully he will return!
I guess he just figured he beat Flash so many times that there was nothing left to do but retire.
Personally, I would love to see lots of late-game ZvZ, just because I think it's just as entertaining as late game TvT. That's not sarcasm, either; I think TvT in Proleague games are very exciting and probably my favorite mirror-match to watch.
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I remember this thread! Very nice bump (:
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On November 30 2010 02:43 Navane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 22:35 POWEROUTAGE wrote:
The tipping point when I thought "Oh shit, I don't understand what I'm watching at all, this isn't ZvZ" was in EffOrt vs. Hyuk. Some day, I hope to see ZvZs play out like that as a standard. Or Zero vs. Great. ZvZs are really exciting after the muta stage, it is quite lamentable that any developments in late game ZvZ have stagnated. If EffOrt didn't just retire, I'm sure he'd have spearheaded any new developments in heavy eco, late spire play.
The new maps seem to support this kind of play, so I'm not sure why we're not seeing more late-game oriented ZvZ play. It seems like we'll have to wait for ZerO's new innovations, though it seems he's doing pretty well in regular ZvZ which means he has less of a need to develop new strategies to deal with his weaknesses. Yeah, do hope ZerO experiments more.
I think the retirement of Effort was Saviors last act. If not, like you said, ZvZ would have evolved and Effort was the only one with a good record vs Flash, even better than JD's. He could've turned the world around.
how does effort have a record vs flash better than jaedong?
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Apparently he doesnt. I just looked it up. Effort is 42.9% vs Flash, and Jaedong is 46.5%. However Effort was definitely one of the few people who could give Flash trouble.
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the funny thing is sc2 is exactly the same. very similar in terms of game time and gameplay. Nerve wrecking, fast paced, and quick. However, some matches can be epic (MasterAsia vs Catz)!
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So true. ZvZ is ridiculously fast paced in both game, and when/if it gets to the late game... It is mind blowingly (dont think thats a word) awesome
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On July 16 2010 05:57 swanized wrote:![[image loading]](http://i30.tinypic.com/e031jm.jpg) Coach is happy
This needs to be made into a meme. LOL.
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It's sick it took 12 years to exploit the game fully, sc2 has already been almost exploited. T_t
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On December 02 2010 11:55 Tomken wrote:
It's sick it took 12 years to exploit the game fully, sc2 has already been almost exploited. T_t
Im going to go ahead and say that neither BW nor SC2 are in any way fully exploited. People are still discovering new timings in BW frequently. As for SC2... I think in some ways its still in its infancy really. With better maps that actually let you get a 3rd base I think a TON of new strategies will evolve for SC2.
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On December 02 2010 11:55 Tomken wrote:
It's sick it took 12 years to exploit the game fully, sc2 has already been almost exploited. T_t
Sc2 is far from being exploited. In a week your "new" strategy gets already out-dated ._.
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Never thought the day would come
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On November 30 2010 18:51 zak wrote:
the funny thing is sc2 is exactly the same. very similar in terms of game time and gameplay. Nerve wrecking, fast paced, and quick. However, some matches can be epic (MasterAsia vs Catz)!
Please stop comparing a game that just came out when BW has been evolving for these past ten years.
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At the time I'm writing this, StarCraft BW's general strategy is technically locked at it's final state. ZvZ has little options, as Ling>Muta is the only unit composition one allows. Teching slowly is seen rarely.
TvZ has a basic 1 rax FE SK Terran (optional tanks), or mech play. PvZ is obvious as it stands, with forge FE into corsair play, transitioning into mass gateway units/with possible reavers against the Zerg army.
ahh 12 years...
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On December 03 2010 15:52 TriniMasta wrote:
At the time I'm writing this, StarCraft BW's general strategy is technically locked at it's final state. ZvZ has little options, as Ling>Muta is the only unit composition one allows. Teching slowly is seen rarely.
TvZ has a basic 1 rax FE SK Terran (optional tanks), or mech play. PvZ is obvious as it stands, with forge FE into corsair play, transitioning into mass gateway units/with possible reavers against the Zerg army.
ahh 12 years...
You have to look more at the particulars than that. "FE, corsairs, ground army" is a very general stategy description. The game at this point is most variant in the exact tech timings, the expansion patterns and the army movement patterns concocted to gain map control/initiative. You should pay less attention to the kinds of units they're making and whether or not they opt to take their nat quickly, and more attention to the particular number of units that are on the minimap and the roles they're playing. It's fairly complex, hard to execute perfectly, and everybody has different ideas about what the best method is for each matchup. That's the most interesting part of the game to me.
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United States4053 Posts
Bump because
+ Show Spoiler +2010-12-25, PDPop MSL Group C Winners' Game, Soulkey vs. Great
Soulkey puts up 4 spores and goes for Greater Spire.
Great decides to expand with defiler and hydra tech.
Great ends up containing Soulkey pretty hard despite a very nice series of air and ground harasses by Soulkey
Great attempts to proxy hatch but fails, and in the end wins with brute force as he gets 7 base and ultras.
EDIT: the thing about this game is, it only took a small nudge to pretty much force both players into hive tech / more bases. Soulkey made a couple extra spores and great's spire was early, so there ended up being no game-winning muta clashes before both players had a chance to tech up.
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Haha before I read who posted in this thread I just saw it and thought it was because of the games just played
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Spoiler for MSL Group C
+ Show Spoiler +Not sure why zergs don't expand the way great does. It seems in the couple of games I've seen of hive transition vs hydra + 3rd base transition, great always seem to get a huge advantage. Sure, devours and queens hard counter mutas, but not enough to make up for 2-base vs 3-base disadvantage.
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If hydras actually become standard in zvz I hope that Tsunami comes out of retirement to laugh at all the haters who told him zvz was muta ling only period!
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EPT
