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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
CJ v. SKT spoilers!
+ Show Spoiler +Well, my opinion was valid for about an hour and a half. But  EffOrt hyuk'd me, and I stand corrected. A brilliant late-game-based opening from him, and a hive cameo. I'm still not sold on whether a late-game based strategy has any utility except as a cheese, but give me time, I might come around. That's EffOrt v. Hyuk, game 3 of the CJ v. SKT second day.
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CJ vs SKT
+ Show Spoiler +I think what we saw here was a different way for someone who has the advantage to end the game. Effort was argueably in a much better position then hyuk when he began teching to hive so instead of just getting more muta/ling effort was able to get some clutch hive tech units out to make his army that much scarier.
Also did anyone notice if effort got adrenal glands? I was to busy picking my jaw up off the floor to notice.
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On July 18 2010 17:02 Antiochus wrote:CJ vs SKT + Show Spoiler +I think what we saw here was a different way for someone who has the advantage to end the game. Effort was argueably in a much better position then hyuk when he began teching to hive so instead of just getting more muta/ling effort was able to get some clutch hive tech units out to make his army that much scarier.
Also did anyone notice if effort got adrenal glands? I was to busy picking my jaw up off the floor to notice.
+ Show Spoiler + yeah he attacked when it finished and when melee attack was finished
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I think more players might try to force a longer game just to avoid the problem of it coming down to a single muta/scourge battle in a lot of cases, will be interesting if it becomes viable regularly.
One thing i have to say though is hydra's appear useless, great almost lost his lead against ZerO because of sheer immobility and just how generally ineffective they are against muta. Only useful to turn into lurkers really, especially very lategame as we saw lurkers under swarm basically has no counter other than more lurkers. I don't see a safe window to get hydra's in for them to be effective at all. I suppose on a map with easy third like Gods Garden you could go defensive spore/hydra (maybe queen too?), or maybe hydra/scourge considering the extra gas you'll have, and try to tech but whats the point when mutas would be better and would not fully give up map control. . That's what it looks like to me anyway, but i don't really know the details of ZvZ as i don't play it myself only watch it.
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 18 2010 17:02 Antiochus wrote:CJ vs SKT + Show Spoiler +I think what we saw here was a different way for someone who has the advantage to end the game. Effort was argueably in a much better position then hyuk when he began teching to hive so instead of just getting more muta/ling effort was able to get some clutch hive tech units out to make his army that much scarier.
Also did anyone notice if effort got adrenal glands? I was to busy picking my jaw up off the floor to notice.
CJ vs SKT spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +It certainly was not that in my opinion,Effort took a f***** fast third and spored up immediately, his lair was pretty damn late but he had more hatches and more econ then hyuk. After he got a few mutas he imediately teched to hive. (I'd have to recheck the vod because our opinions are a bit contradictory)
In my opinion, Effort knew before the game even started that he was going to hive, pretty damn sweet strat
and yes Effort did get adrenal gland considering how fast hyuk's spawning pool went down
this is getting pretty exciting :p
On July 18 2010 18:54 infinity2k9 wrote:
I think more players might try to force a longer game just to avoid the problem of it coming down to a single muta/scourge battle in a lot of cases, will be interesting if it becomes viable regularly.
One thing i have to say though is hydra's appear useless, great almost lost his lead against ZerO because of sheer immobility and just how generally ineffective they are against muta. Only useful to turn into lurkers really, especially very lategame as we saw lurkers under swarm basically has no counter other than more lurkers. I don't see a safe window to get hydra's in for them to be effective at all. I suppose on a map with easy third like Gods Garden you could go defensive spore/hydra (maybe queen too?), or maybe hydra/scourge considering the extra gas you'll have, and try to tech but whats the point when mutas would be better and would not fully give up map control. . That's what it looks like to me anyway, but i don't really know the details of ZvZ as i don't play it myself only watch it.
While that is true, Great makes hydra's when he takes his rather fast third base instead of teching, it lets him defends his bases with ease and once swarm/plague is out the mutas will have a hard time hurting the hydras. So giving up map control for a window of time before he gets defilers is okay for great because he has a fast third base. we would really need to see more games from great. Next proleague season I guess 
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I'm not sure if the new zvz style is here to stay; hell I'm not even sure if it counts as a style yet, but it is much more entertaining to watch. It is hard to get excited over the same two units every game, especially when it is so unpredictable. The long games are better to watch I think, and that is what I look for in progaming, a good entertaining watch.
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for this kind of article i come to tl.net. really appreciate the time and effort that was put into it! Thank you.
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Taiwan619 Posts
great is awesome! :D liked him ever since his zvp proxy hatch strat on medusa
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Great is a total baller.
Those wacky Samsung Khan players, man.
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 19 2010 05:41 plan3t wrote:
Great is a total baller.
Those wacky Samsung Khan players, man.
On July 19 2010 05:03 pathy wrote:
great is awesome! :D liked him ever since his zvp proxy hatch strat on medusa
Great is a mega-baller
On July 19 2010 04:38 zul wrote:
for this kind of article i come to tl.net. really appreciate the time and effort that was put into it! Thank you.
Thanks :p
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On July 18 2010 13:03 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote:
I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective. Thanks, well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works thanks for the feedback. (need more discussion people T_T)
Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk.
Thats how I see it atleast.
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really nice article, thanks!
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 19 2010 05:53 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 13:03 swanized wrote:On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote:
I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective. Thanks, well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works thanks for the feedback. (need more discussion people T_T) Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk. Thats how I see it atleast.
yes plague of course...you need hydralurk to fight off the mutas though...you can't jsut witch into lurkerling
On July 19 2010 06:27 Ideas wrote:
really nice article, thanks!
thanks
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On July 19 2010 06:36 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2010 05:53 Iplaythings wrote:On July 18 2010 13:03 swanized wrote:On July 18 2010 12:57 tree.hugger wrote:
I think this is a good thread, and a set up to a good discussion. I'm not convinced that we'll likely be seeing a huge amount of late game ZvZ's in the future, as it's still quite easy to gain a decisive advantage in the early game.
So late-game ZvZ can occur between strong players, but I'm not convinced that it's the future, or even a good way to play the game, when confronted with a stalemate situation. I'd suspect that just massing lings or mutalisks while expanding (something that EffOrt has done on occasion) might be more effective. Thanks, well getting a queen makes your army pretty damn stronger once the battle comes around so I think it is a good alternative to more mutas/lings, in zero vs Roro, Roro kept massing muta/scourge and got killed pretty bad by zero's queen/muta scourge... not saying queen IS better but I think it looks very viable hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works thanks for the feedback. (need more discussion people T_T) Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk. Thats how I see it atleast. yes plague of course...you need hydralurk to fight off the mutas though...you can't jsut witch into lurkerling thanks
Ofc, didnt say otherwise.
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Re: + Show Spoiler [CJ vs SKT spoiler] +
+ Show Spoiler +It's worth noting that one of the reasons what Effort did was so effective is that Hyuk did an in-base 12 hatch. Good call on effort's part though because the map really discourages 12hatching to your gas expo, which is probably the best thing to do against what Effort did.
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hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works
The hydras seemed mostly reactionary to me; a response to his opponent teching to queens and Devs. It makes a player choosing to tech to hive instead of massing more and more mutes, would in a sense "allow" his opponent to make a tech switch to hydras. In a canonical ZvZ this tech switch would be prevented by constant pressure from the muta harass.
(Straight up hydra builds do exist, of course, but represent a completely different thought process)
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 19 2010 11:48 sheaRZerg wrote:Show nested quote + hydras I don't know, they worked so far but it is up to great to prove us his hydras works The hydras seemed mostly reactionary to me; a response to his opponent teching to queens and Devs. It makes a player choosing to tech to hive instead of massing more and more mutes, would in a sense "allow" his opponent to make a tech switch to hydras. In a canonical ZvZ this tech switch would be prevented by constant pressure from the muta harass. (Straight up hydra builds do exist, of course, but represent a completely different thought process)
I'm not so sure massing mutas would have worked as well as some suggest, ressources for ressources hydras are better then mutas (larva ressource is compensated by the fact that they are not as gas intensive) and the mutas need to strike before plague is finished otherwise it's insta-lose. and break a muta/scourge/hydra/spore defense looks pretty difficult (considering spores do ridiculous AA damage because they are normal attack type I believe)
again maybe you are right... so few games like that that we can only theorycraft
I finished editing Effort vs hyuk ... go read it
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On July 17 2010 10:03 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote:
About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz:
In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.
I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate. That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately, thanks for your input I will edit this to OP Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 13:25 SubtleArt wrote:
Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that. I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell, well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever,
Because SubtleArt divides his time on the forum between telling people how wrong they are and then asking people to do his homework for non-existant beta keys. Foucault left some big shoes to fill when he got banned. Luckily Subtle has stepped up and is now not doing any uni work at all in order to concentrate full-time all his amazing powers to telling bad posters like yourself that you're wrong because you're D-. Unless that's some other guy in which case don't think you're special just because you got something spotlighted, any D+ could have said the same thing. Including Subtle, but he was just too busy going through all those threads for his uni work that others have done for him. You just happen to have a lot of free time on your hands. Subtle could have written that article way better but he just didn't have the time.
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United States17042 Posts
I think that the zvz matchup is contually adding depth through innovations in mid-late game transitions. Muta micro has gotten good enough so that scourge don't work very well (hence the death of ling/scourge) and spores directly counter how good the muta micro is. This means that you force both players in the ZvZ to make better decisions in order to have an advantage going into lategame. I think that one of the keys for the player who has earlier mutalisks is they need to be able to take advantage of their ability to deny scouting to the player who is turtling with spores. I also think that this "new" style (spore+sunken with heavy drones and better econ) is a property of the maps getting even bigger, and close thirds + 1 possible choke allowing zergs to better be able to turtle behind static defenses. If we go back to many of the older maps, this kind of style wouldn't be possible at all.
Last key point: all of this really means that 12 hat is becoming the standard viable build in zvz, with all maps having ~30 second rush distances. As a prediction, if the maps keep staying the current size or larger, I would expect 9 pool/overpool to become "safe" builds, and possibly too safe (similar to 2 rax builds in TvZ); 9 pool speed should still have a place as the most aggressive build however, due to the mobility and aggressiveness that early speedlings give you.
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EPT
