• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:59
CEST 06:59
KST 13:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation12$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [G] Progamer Settings ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 586 users

The End of an Era? - Page 3

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
HeadhunteR
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Argentina1258 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-19 05:09:42
July 19 2010 05:09 GMT
#41
hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..
in The Kong line forever
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
July 19 2010 13:49 GMT
#42
On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote:
hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..



We are up to 5 now actually, in 35 days,

I don't see why (Z)ZerO's play is not good because his ZvZ is not stellar, at least back this up telling WHY it is not that good...

(Z)Shark was not that good either but everybody stack mutas anyway


Writer
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-19 14:08:08
July 19 2010 14:02 GMT
#43
On July 19 2010 12:41 Subversive wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 17 2010 10:03 swanized wrote:
On July 17 2010 06:05 zobz wrote:
About acheiving "stalemate" late-game zvz:
In modern zvz the player who gets a slower gas almost always ends up building spores, and securing an earlier second gas to make up for it. So this much is perfectly common already and has been for a long time. What's new is maybe an improving technique of securing the natural at a later point using the advantage of a faster spire. When the first two-baser gets his spire finished, he starts off behind on mutas and has to turtle even a bit longer until he can catch up. If he doesn't catch up right away he might never be able to and he will have no larva to spare to spend all that gas, so he won't be producing zerglings. This means that the other player is often fine to defend his nat with his mutas + the lings he has left over from the early-game, allowing him to cut production and expo himself. Once both players have two gas, that is when a "stalemate" is likely. And this may very well come to be more common.

I think that pretty well justifies continuation of the discussion of whether or not queens and/or hive, and possibly hydras, are good ideas having acheived such a stalemate.



That is a very interesting point, I had not thought of this as the reason why stalemate had been reached more frequently lately,

thanks for your input

I will edit this to OP


On July 16 2010 13:25 SubtleArt wrote:

Lastly I was just wondering if that person was u, it had nothing to do with the argument. Btw don't get ahead of yourself cause u got a thread spotlighted cause there was really nothing in that thread that your average D+ wouldn't get on first sight. U just happen to have a lot of spare time on your hands and actually bother writing something like that.


I am not getting ahead of myself, I only advanced that as a reason why my ID ringed a bell,

well I wonder why you even bring it up in the first place then but whatever,

Because SubtleArt divides his time on the forum between telling people how wrong they are and then asking people to do his homework for non-existant beta keys. Foucault left some big shoes to fill when he got banned. Luckily Subtle has stepped up and is now not doing any uni work at all in order to concentrate full-time all his amazing powers to telling bad posters like yourself that you're wrong because you're D-. Unless that's some other guy in which case don't think you're special just because you got something spotlighted, any D+ could have said the same thing. Including Subtle, but he was just too busy going through all those threads for his uni work that others have done for him. You just happen to have a lot of free time on your hands. Subtle could have written that article way better but he just didn't have the time.


http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

If you look at a lot of my recent posts in the strat forum though, they're pretty helpful. Also I don't care about the poster but if I think what he's saying is wrong (which in this case I do) I'll provide a reasonable argument against it (like I did).

There was another thread where I said I felt very low level players should try to restrain from offering too much strategic help and I stand by it, but in this case it's totally irrelevant.

Here an example of a bad post btw
+ Show Spoiler +

On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote:
hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..

Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
July 19 2010 14:03 GMT
#44
On July 19 2010 14:07 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
I think that the zvz matchup is contually adding depth through innovations in mid-late game transitions. Muta micro has gotten good enough so that scourge don't work very well (hence the death of ling/scourge) and spores directly counter how good the muta micro is. This means that you force both players in the ZvZ to make better decisions in order to have an advantage going into lategame. I think that one of the keys for the player who has earlier mutalisks is they need to be able to take advantage of their ability to deny scouting to the player who is turtling with spores. I also think that this "new" style (spore+sunken with heavy drones and better econ) is a property of the maps getting even bigger, and close thirds + 1 possible choke allowing zergs to better be able to turtle behind static defenses. If we go back to many of the older maps, this kind of style wouldn't be possible at all.

Last key point: all of this really means that 12 hat is becoming the standard viable build in zvz, with all maps having ~30 second rush distances. As a prediction, if the maps keep staying the current size or larger, I would expect 9 pool/overpool to become "safe" builds, and possibly too safe (similar to 2 rax builds in TvZ); 9 pool speed should still have a place as the most aggressive build however, due to the mobility and aggressiveness that early speedlings give you.



great post, I'm editing this in OP. indeed I had not thought of the maps getting bigger as a reason for this to be happening, interesting thoughts.
Writer
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
July 19 2010 14:45 GMT
#45
On July 19 2010 22:49 swanized wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote:
hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..



We are up to 5 now actually, in 35 days,

I don't see why (Z)ZerO's play is not good because his ZvZ is not stellar, at least back this up telling WHY it is not that good...

(Z)Shark was not that good either but everybody stack mutas anyway




Exactly. People are so ridiculously demanding. Any1 who even gets TV playtime on a pro team is absolutely amazing at starcraft in the grand scope. Zero not only does that but manages to maintain a solid winrate and be one of the pillars for his team. Truth is if you even make it on a proteam you are absolutely stellar and above thousands upon thousands of other people practicing 10 hours of starcraft a day. This guy reminds me of those people in the live report that are like "fucking awful play by _____" when they lose on a build order.
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
DarkSaieden
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
South Africa254 Posts
July 19 2010 15:57 GMT
#46
If 12 hatch becomes too popularly, it'll be punished by cheese and other ling aggressive builds. If this trend continues, i think 12 pool will become the new overpool, if not, maybe something like 9 or 10 hatch, thats if the pool can come out early enough to stop a 4 pool. I also predict 9th/10th drone scouting will be on the rise as ovis will just be too late (or inconsistent) as the only means of scouting, especially with a general increase in the eco of openings.
HeadhunteR
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Argentina1258 Posts
July 19 2010 18:35 GMT
#47
Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.

As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...

He is not good vz..
in The Kong line forever
DarkSaieden
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
South Africa254 Posts
July 19 2010 19:18 GMT
#48
Giving zero's overall game results doesn't tell you what shape he's in now. Maybe the old one skirmish style zvz just didn't/doesn't suit his own style and hence his zvz was weaker. As stated before, for these players to be using this strat (forcing late game with spores, regardless of how far apart each players spire's are) in big games shows that it must've been planned for at least, if not, practiced many times over. Bisu rose to fame with his own build by abusing his incredible multitasking. Whose to say zero and/or great cant do something similar with their styles? (though it wouldn't be an overnight thing like bisu)
Aikin
Profile Joined April 2010
Austria532 Posts
July 19 2010 20:25 GMT
#49
Finally some PLAYGY action in ZvZ. Mutas with 1 hp are just so juicy. I really hope we´ll see more ZvZ lategames because the ones you pointed out where awsome and alot cooler to watch then just muta scourge.
[A]dmiral Bulldog | Naniwa | [A]lliance
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-19 20:35:22
July 19 2010 20:27 GMT
#50
On July 20 2010 03:35 HeadhunteR wrote:
Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.

As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...

He is not good vz..


And theres thousands of people that aren't good enough to enter courage tournaments
and theres thousands that arent good enough to win 1
and theres many that arent good enough to join a pro team even after they win
and theres many that arent good enough to pass the b team
and theres many who arent good enough to earn a single televised game even though they make the a team.

You have absolutely no appreciation for how hard it is to even play a game for a team. Remember canata? That guy who played well and even made it to an individual league Ro8 a few years ago? SKT has given him only 2 games this year, thats how dam competitive it is. In the large scope of things Zero is hands among the best, all progamers are. You act like a 47% win rate means he's not good enough to contribute anything to the ZvZ matchup, forgetting the larger picture and how good you have to be to even achieve that.

To offer an analogy even one of the lowest scorers in the English Premier League is still REALLY REALLY fucking good to even be able to play in that league.

@OP

To offer another thought (other than this is stupid):

It feels like ZvZ still only gets to lategame if theres something weird that happens, in most cases some1 turtling with spores. The problem with this is that spores are stationary, and the other zerg can easily drone whore / expand if he sees you doing this. As good as hive tech in ZvZ is if u can reach it, its still defensive for the most part ( luring --> plague or swarm). Nothing that can really initiate an attack all that well (lings can easily shut down swarm for example). This makes me think that if both sides play right, the game is still usually decided before hive tech hits. Of course theres exceptions (like overgas vs 12h, the extra econ from 12h can compensate).

One example is yellow vs saint on destination in 2008 ish. Yellow turtles with spores out of neccesity and even though he initiates hive tech saint easily took another base and was in the driving seat the entire game.
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-19 22:25:00
July 19 2010 22:23 GMT
#51
On July 20 2010 05:27 SubtleArt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 03:35 HeadhunteR wrote:
Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.

As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...

He is not good vz..


And theres thousands of people that aren't good enough to enter courage tournaments
and theres thousands that arent good enough to win 1
and theres many that arent good enough to join a pro team even after they win
and theres many that arent good enough to pass the b team
and theres many who arent good enough to earn a single televised game even though they make the a team.

You have absolutely no appreciation for how hard it is to even play a game for a team. Remember canata? That guy who played well and even made it to an individual league Ro8 a few years ago? SKT has given him only 2 games this year, thats how dam competitive it is. In the large scope of things Zero is hands among the best, all progamers are. You act like a 47% win rate means he's not good enough to contribute anything to the ZvZ matchup, forgetting the larger picture and how good you have to be to even achieve that.

To offer an analogy even one of the lowest scorers in the English Premier League is still REALLY REALLY fucking good to even be able to play in that league.

@OP

To offer another thought (other than this is stupid):

It feels like ZvZ still only gets to lategame if theres something weird that happens, in most cases some1 turtling with spores. The problem with this is that spores are stationary, and the other zerg can easily drone whore / expand if he sees you doing this. As good as hive tech in ZvZ is if u can reach it, its still defensive for the most part ( luring --> plague or swarm). Nothing that can really initiate an attack all that well (lings can easily shut down swarm for example). This makes me think that if both sides play right, the game is still usually decided before hive tech hits. Of course theres exceptions (like overgas vs 12h, the extra econ from 12h can compensate).

One example is yellow vs saint on destination in 2008 ish. Yellow turtles with spores out of neccesity and even though he initiates hive tech saint easily took another base and was in the driving seat the entire game.



I think you make it sound like taking the third for the other players is piece of cake,

if you are not playing like effort you have put down 1 or 2 spores in all of you bases, yes your mutas will be a it later and you won't have as many as your opponent. BUT, considering you have spores your bases are pretty hard to harass. you can therefore harass your opponent mineral lines and third base much more easily then your opponent can, and defending 3 bases with just a muta cloud and no spores is a pain. I'm not saying taking the third is impossible but it might be a bit harder then you make it seem.(unless that's judgement day, but in that case you also have your third so...)

(also, while ling shut down swarm, lurkers shut down lings so I think you can still be kinda agressive with your hydralurk force, if you see your opponent switching to lurker ling and not adding on the muta count then you need to do the same switch too)

Edit: and as Subtle said, (Z)ZerO's ZvZ might not be stellar but that does not mean he can't innovate, (Z)Shark was not even on the A-team yet made one of the most important innovation in BW
Writer
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-19 23:29:57
July 19 2010 23:29 GMT
#52
On July 20 2010 07:23 swanized wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 05:27 SubtleArt wrote:
On July 20 2010 03:35 HeadhunteR wrote:
Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.

As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...

He is not good vz..


And theres thousands of people that aren't good enough to enter courage tournaments
and theres thousands that arent good enough to win 1
and theres many that arent good enough to join a pro team even after they win
and theres many that arent good enough to pass the b team
and theres many who arent good enough to earn a single televised game even though they make the a team.

You have absolutely no appreciation for how hard it is to even play a game for a team. Remember canata? That guy who played well and even made it to an individual league Ro8 a few years ago? SKT has given him only 2 games this year, thats how dam competitive it is. In the large scope of things Zero is hands among the best, all progamers are. You act like a 47% win rate means he's not good enough to contribute anything to the ZvZ matchup, forgetting the larger picture and how good you have to be to even achieve that.

To offer an analogy even one of the lowest scorers in the English Premier League is still REALLY REALLY fucking good to even be able to play in that league.

@OP

To offer another thought (other than this is stupid):

It feels like ZvZ still only gets to lategame if theres something weird that happens, in most cases some1 turtling with spores. The problem with this is that spores are stationary, and the other zerg can easily drone whore / expand if he sees you doing this. As good as hive tech in ZvZ is if u can reach it, its still defensive for the most part ( luring --> plague or swarm). Nothing that can really initiate an attack all that well (lings can easily shut down swarm for example). This makes me think that if both sides play right, the game is still usually decided before hive tech hits. Of course theres exceptions (like overgas vs 12h, the extra econ from 12h can compensate).

One example is yellow vs saint on destination in 2008 ish. Yellow turtles with spores out of neccesity and even though he initiates hive tech saint easily took another base and was in the driving seat the entire game.



I think you make it sound like taking the third for the other players is piece of cake,

if you are not playing like effort you have put down 1 or 2 spores in all of you bases, yes your mutas will be a it later and you won't have as many as your opponent. BUT, considering you have spores your bases are pretty hard to harass. you can therefore harass your opponent mineral lines and third base much more easily then your opponent can, and defending 3 bases with just a muta cloud and no spores is a pain. I'm not saying taking the third is impossible but it might be a bit harder then you make it seem.(unless that's judgement day, but in that case you also have your third so...)

(also, while ling shut down swarm, lurkers shut down lings so I think you can still be kinda agressive with your hydralurk force, if you see your opponent switching to lurker ling and not adding on the muta count then you need to do the same switch too)

Edit: and as Subtle said, (Z)ZerO's ZvZ might not be stellar but that does not mean he can't innovate, (Z)Shark was not even on the A-team yet made one of the most important innovation in BW


Yea, I'm just saying spores are generally built when the other's muta clump is larger, so during the time that said person has a higher muta count he can usually take a 3rd no problem. Logically the guy with spores could harass random places while he builds up but the problem is mutas have moving shot so a guy could chase the other guys smaller muta numbers and pick many off while they're retreating. This generally means you can't really move far past your spores unless your muta count is equal or higher.

Heres the game I'm talking about btw, it demonstrates this as well as what I was talking about. On top of that its just a really nice game to watch. Right now it says its not working on youtube so hopefully it might work soon. Enjoy

Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
July 19 2010 23:59 GMT
#53
hmm, I guess harassment and attacks on the third comes down to base layout

good infolords and infolings placement is probably crucial if you are trying to do that, keeping track of your opponent's ball position will make harassment on the mineral lines possible, we'll see how it develops. Can't wait for the next ZvZ
Writer
mutantmagnet
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3789 Posts
July 20 2010 01:42 GMT
#54
On July 19 2010 05:53 Iplaythings wrote:
Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk.
Thats how I see it atleast.


It's going to become obvious fairly quickly that ultraling is a waste of resources.

In one of those games posted in the OP a lurker pops ~7 weakened lings in one shot before they could pull off a surround. Even with ultras distracting lurkers their splash cone (that does full damage) will still kill off lings too quickly.

If any zerg is at four bases and has Hive access they'll be much better off trying to support Ultralurker than Ultraling. That combo is less volatile to the effects of plague and is just as immune to dswarm.

Ultimately though late game ZvZ is going to be in for a very annoying teething stage as players figure out how many defilers and queens they should have to support whatever their core army is whether it is Devo/Muta ling, muta/hydra/lurker(ling), or Ultralurker/hydra.
Kare
Profile Joined March 2009
Norway786 Posts
July 20 2010 01:56 GMT
#55
has to be said, zvz in brood war is 10x better then zvz in sc2!
In life you can obtain all sorts of material wealth, but the real treasure is the epic feelings you get while doing something you love.
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-20 02:15:06
July 20 2010 02:14 GMT
#56
On July 20 2010 10:56 Kare wrote:
has to be said, anything in brood war is 10x better then anything in sc2!


wow what a typo, fixed

On July 20 2010 10:42 mutantmagnet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2010 05:53 Iplaythings wrote:
Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk.
Thats how I see it atleast.


It's going to become obvious fairly quickly that ultraling is a waste of resources.

In one of those games posted in the OP a lurker pops ~7 weakened lings in one shot before they could pull off a surround. Even with ultras distracting lurkers their splash cone (that does full damage) will still kill off lings too quickly.

If any zerg is at four bases and has Hive access they'll be much better off trying to support Ultralurker than Ultraling. That combo is less volatile to the effects of plague and is just as immune to dswarm.

Ultimately though late game ZvZ is going to be in for a very annoying teething stage as players figure out how many defilers and queens they should have to support whatever their core army is whether it is Devo/Muta ling, muta/hydra/lurker(ling), or Ultralurker/hydra.


I must say that i agree, ultraling looks like a waste of ressources against lurker/ling, problem is that lings> ultras at same cost(I think, 16 lings vs 1 ultra) so you can't go pure ultras. ultra/hydra looks doable but once swarm is up it gets raped hard by ultra/ling(i think). sounds like a complicated RPS. wonder if surprise tech switches will be the norm...

edit: and ultra lurker has to be pretty F******* expensive

Writer
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
July 20 2010 02:22 GMT
#57
I remember seeing Zero use queens a year ago and thinking 'ZvZ is going to change... maybe not right away, but soon.' He's done it quite a few times since, I'm glad the other zergs are finally taking an interest. ZvZ might actually become the most interesting mirror matchup (as it was clearly meant to be ^^).

BRING BACK TSUNAMI STYLE!!! ^^
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
July 20 2010 02:33 GMT
#58
The thing about the EffOrt v. Hyuk game is that it didn't demonstrate the functionality of anything new, really, except that two hatch/pool/hatch is a viable build. It's still an open question which other maps that's a strategy that makes any sense. If the player doesn't take another expansion with his third hatch, then you do only have to defend two bases though, so it's possible.

But furthermore, I'm not sure EffOrt intended to use anything other than muta/ling/scourge. That could be because he had a clear route to winning, but I'm never convinced that hydras, lurkers, or ultras are a viable alternative to muta/ling. I could see EffOrt going to get a queen, because he's already got the tech, but I think the proxy nydus was more of a mental thing, like a manner cc or hatch, to fire up his team. Muta/ling is so mobile, and if you've got enough mutalisks, then it's hard to see what zerg unit is a suitable alternative.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
July 20 2010 03:20 GMT
#59
Zero vs Great was AWESOME. Moletrap was speechless, hah.

Also, I've been waiting to see a cheesy Nydus since I started watching pro BW.

Props to the progamers for finally developing a new way to spice up what has (for a long time) been the stalest and most formulaic of matchups. It's been a long time coming.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
July 20 2010 03:40 GMT
#60
So ZvZ isnt fully discovered after all!
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
SEL Masters #4 - Day 1
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 205
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 673
Noble 138
Bale 22
Dota 2
monkeys_forever724
NeuroSwarm68
ODPixel34
League of Legends
JimRising 912
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K770
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor89
Other Games
summit1g11077
shahzam703
hungrybox415
ViBE159
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick42077
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH342
• Hupsaiya 94
• Light_VIP 56
• practicex 26
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt318
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
5h 1m
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
8h 1m
Replay Cast
19h 1m
RSL Revival
1d 5h
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 11h
OSC
1d 15h
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.