The End of an Era? - Page 3

On July 19 2010 14:09 HeadhunteR wrote:
hey if big mistakes make better zvz well then bring them on... its nice to note that there have been a lot of longer and more creative zvz´s in the past months.... that zero vs Type-b game was one of the 2 or 3 long zvz´s from the second half of last year and now we already have 4? well 3 and a half.. but still I still think that if zvz goes to hive tech its cause one player that had a good advantage just lost it and they had to turtle up for it.. Zeros zvz aint that good so its not something to become standard what he does.. and great just said he wanted to show longer zvz´s maybe he sees them as an opportunity for safer and more advantageous play if he gains experience in this then he will most probably go hive in more games making his opponent uneasy I feel that in the Zero vs great.. zero probably felt very uncomfortable playing cause there aren't much strategic standards for zvz at the 25 minute mark..

On July 19 2010 12:41 Subversive wrote:

Because SubtleArt divides his time on the forum between telling people how wrong they are and then asking people to do his homework for non-existant beta keys. Foucault left some big shoes to fill when he got banned. Luckily Subtle has stepped up and is now not doing any uni work at all in order to concentrate full-time all his amazing powers to telling bad posters like yourself that you're wrong because you're D-. Unless that's some other guy in which case don't think you're special just because you got something spotlighted, any D+ could have said the same thing. Including Subtle, but he was just too busy going through all those threads for his uni work that others have done for him. You just happen to have a lot of free time on your hands. Subtle could have written that article way better but he just didn't have the time.

On July 19 2010 14:07 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
I think that the zvz matchup is contually adding depth through innovations in mid-late game transitions. Muta micro has gotten good enough so that scourge don't work very well (hence the death of ling/scourge) and spores directly counter how good the muta micro is. This means that you force both players in the ZvZ to make better decisions in order to have an advantage going into lategame. I think that one of the keys for the player who has earlier mutalisks is they need to be able to take advantage of their ability to deny scouting to the player who is turtling with spores. I also think that this "new" style (spore+sunken with heavy drones and better econ) is a property of the maps getting even bigger, and close thirds + 1 possible choke allowing zergs to better be able to turtle behind static defenses. If we go back to many of the older maps, this kind of style wouldn't be possible at all.

Last key point: all of this really means that 12 hat is becoming the standard viable build in zvz, with all maps having ~30 second rush distances. As a prediction, if the maps keep staying the current size or larger, I would expect 9 pool/overpool to become "safe" builds, and possibly too safe (similar to 2 rax builds in TvZ); 9 pool speed should still have a place as the most aggressive build however, due to the mobility and aggressiveness that early speedlings give you.

On July 19 2010 22:49 swanized wrote:



We are up to 5 now actually, in 35 days,

I don't see why ZerO's play is not good because his ZvZ is not stellar, at least back this up telling WHY it is not that good...

Shark was not that good either but everybody stack mutas anyway

On July 20 2010 03:35 HeadhunteR wrote:
Zero has a 47.37% vz at this time.. thats why its not stellar.. not winning most of your games in a matchup makes it a weak one..and it is Zeros weakest one. If you think about it Jaedong when it was jvz he was 80% vz and That is when zvz skills overalll just went up.

As fickle and luck based zvz can get Zero acording to TLPD vs jaedong he is 3-10 down, vs Calm he is 2-5 down, vs Kwanro he is 3-7 down, vs effort 1-5 down, and is 0-3 vs great, is 3-2 vs roro, 1-1 against action and 4-2 against Hyuk...

He is not good vz..

On July 20 2010 05:27 SubtleArt wrote:


And theres thousands of people that aren't good enough to enter courage tournaments
and theres thousands that arent good enough to win 1
and theres many that arent good enough to join a pro team even after they win
and theres many that arent good enough to pass the b team
and theres many who arent good enough to earn a single televised game even though they make the a team.

You have absolutely no appreciation for how hard it is to even play a game for a team. Remember canata? That guy who played well and even made it to an individual league Ro8 a few years ago? SKT has given him only 2 games this year, thats how dam competitive it is. In the large scope of things Zero is hands among the best, all progamers are. You act like a 47% win rate means he's not good enough to contribute anything to the ZvZ matchup, forgetting the larger picture and how good you have to be to even achieve that.

To offer an analogy even one of the lowest scorers in the English Premier League is still REALLY REALLY fucking good to even be able to play in that league.

@OP

To offer another thought (other than this is stupid):

It feels like ZvZ still only gets to lategame if theres something weird that happens, in most cases some1 turtling with spores. The problem with this is that spores are stationary, and the other zerg can easily drone whore / expand if he sees you doing this. As good as hive tech in ZvZ is if u can reach it, its still defensive for the most part ( luring --> plague or swarm). Nothing that can really initiate an attack all that well (lings can easily shut down swarm for example). This makes me think that if both sides play right, the game is still usually decided before hive tech hits. Of course theres exceptions (like overgas vs 12h, the extra econ from 12h can compensate).

One example is yellow vs saint on destination in 2008 ish. Yellow turtles with spores out of neccesity and even though he initiates hive tech saint easily took another base and was in the driving seat the entire game.

On July 20 2010 07:23 swanized wrote:



I think you make it sound like taking the third for the other players is piece of cake,

if you are not playing like effort you have put down 1 or 2 spores in all of you bases, yes your mutas will be a it later and you won't have as many as your opponent. BUT, considering you have spores your bases are pretty hard to harass. you can therefore harass your opponent mineral lines and third base much more easily then your opponent can, and defending 3 bases with just a muta cloud and no spores is a pain. I'm not saying taking the third is impossible but it might be a bit harder then you make it seem.(unless that's judgement day, but in that case you also have your third so...)

(also, while ling shut down swarm, lurkers shut down lings so I think you can still be kinda agressive with your hydralurk force, if you see your opponent switching to lurker ling and not adding on the muta count then you need to do the same switch too)

Edit: and as Subtle said, ZerO's ZvZ might not be stellar but that does not mean he can't innovate, Shark was not even on the A-team yet made one of the most important innovation in BW

On July 19 2010 05:53 Iplaythings wrote:
Dont forget plague dude. Plague hydra lurker obsoletes muta ling completely. Ultra ling> Lurker ling > hydra lurk.
Thats how I see it atleast.

On July 20 2010 10:56 Kare wrote:
has to be said, anything in brood war is 10x better then anything in sc2!

On July 20 2010 10:42 mutantmagnet wrote:


It's going to become obvious fairly quickly that ultraling is a waste of resources.

In one of those games posted in the OP a lurker pops ~7 weakened lings in one shot before they could pull off a surround. Even with ultras distracting lurkers their splash cone (that does full damage) will still kill off lings too quickly.

If any zerg is at four bases and has Hive access they'll be much better off trying to support Ultralurker than Ultraling. That combo is less volatile to the effects of plague and is just as immune to dswarm.

Ultimately though late game ZvZ is going to be in for a very annoying teething stage as players figure out how many defilers and queens they should have to support whatever their core army is whether it is Devo/Muta ling, muta/hydra/lurker(ling), or Ultralurker/hydra.