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TvZ is the most problematic match up for me. It is a devilish puzzle and zerg is the devil. There are two things that make me lose. The zerg lurker contain holds me inside my base for long enough that the zerg, provided he is good, takes several expansions and outproduces me. Also muta harass into lurker disables my offense early on, contains me. Then the zerg gets 2 more gas expansions, and 12 mutas are effective at stopping drops. By the time Ihave a large enough force to move out against lurks, guards are hatching and its over.
Dropship harass is a good thing, but it is often overlooked by me as I am simply cursed when it comes to scourges. I am paranoid and terrified of those winged bastards. Losing a renegade dropship to them when the game seems even impedes my progress just enough for the zerg to steal the time and take enough land that I am not able to overrun it.
So I'm often afraid to use dropships for the fear that losing it may be a game-ender. Regardless, it is a good diversion guerilla tactic and an effective distraction so it's worth finding a way to sneak one out for the damage it is able to do. My question lies elsewhere. WHen i get 4-6 tanks I move out. A few lurkers always pop at the entrance to my base, but as soon as i move into open ground I get flanked and owned. I suppose it's due to ground force inferiority. So...
Vs 2-3 hatch lurker opening, is it always good to get a second factory and at what marine count/tech level is it good to get it?
Also how do you know when to expand vs zerg. Because of their powerful droppping abilities, I find it almost disadvantageous to expand vs zerg, because that doubles the amount of key points to defend and ties me down in offensive ability. What factors do you consider vs zerg when expanding?
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I'm a zerg use so maybe I can tell you what in my experience I find annoying.
-The lurker contain would be a problem until you get tanks, then simply position them within range and scan(if you dont have vessels yet you might want to have a FEW tanks so you can take out more lurkers per scan).
-If the zerg opens with muta harass you need M&M! Make quite a few of them and 1-2 tanks. Then leave a few marines back in the base and move out with the rest of the MM + 1 tank. It doesn't take many marines to protect yourself from mutas. Make a few strategic turrets(so that they cover each other) And keep like a group of marines in the middle of your base, as soon as they start trying to take out your turrets stim the marines and go chase them out. With the rest of your force + 1 tank you might get lucky and hit their base before they start getting lurkers. A few firebats might be a good idea since the zerg will have to try to stop your push with speedlings + mutas if he is behind on his(and that combo can own medium sized MM forces). But if you can set up a force outside his base and start spamming turrets you're in pretty good shape. Since his mutes won't really be able to do anything to your base or your push unless his lurkers are really early.
-If you are worried about guardians scan his base, queens nest/hive mutating is usually a clear indicator. Then redirect your gas into extra vessels(make fewer tanks or something). And for the love of god control your vessels away from scourge because us zergs love nothing more than that beautiful sound of exploding vessels.
-Keep a few SCVs scouting the map for his expansions and then use dropships accordingly while you build up MM + tanks + vessels for your push. If he has your base surrounded with lords then you'll have trouble doing MM drops since as soon as his lord sees the dropship leave he'll target it and send 2 scourges from the middle of the map to intercept. If you are playing a good zerg then return your dropship back to your marines for cover as soon as it runs into a lord outside your base. I guess you can make a wraith to clean up the lords around you or better yet Shift-move your dropship around his lords then drop any of his new expansions. Harass best you can, remember that if scourges are chasing your dropship you can hit U then click your dropship to make the marines drop out as the dropship is moving and kill the scourge. If he expands by a cliff you can take 1 tank 1 scv 3 marines to drop the cliff. Its probably a good idea to not attack it until you have a few turrets up especially if he has mutas. If he is putting A LOT of effort into securing his expansions then its a good time to push out.
-And concerning your push, thats where your micro skill becomes handy. I don't know quite how terrans do it but you can move out in a certain way and position your MM in a certain way to perfectly cover your tanks and melt and lurkers that are coming at you. I guess its something you need to see in replays. I just know that sometimes a small terran force can totally take out a gigantic zerg flank like hot knife through butter(Dmatrix = godly). A good tip is to use the walls on Lost Temple when you are pushing into the center of the map, that way the zerg only has 180 degrees to attack you from instead of 360. Like if you are at 12 and zerg is at 3 you can push your way through that little area between the edge of 3's base and the wall. Its almost impossible for a zerg to take out a force moving through that spot until its too late and you are at his door step. If you are really having trouble against zerg flanks you can move out slower and make bunkers. Its basically an art. You wanna anticipate where the flank is going to come from and basically put your marines in front of your tanks so that lings dont eat them and to kill the lurkers before they burrow, then as soon as any lurkers he has left have buried themselves move your marines out of the way and Dmatrix one of your tanks and hope that the tanks will finish off the rest....I think thats how its done but not sure....
-You can start taking other main expo locations while you are spanking the zerg and his expos. But as I said its not hard to secure your own min only.
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Thats pretty basic information -_-
Anyways, a big problem for TvZ vs lurkers for many players is just staying in their base too long and letting zerg get map control. A main reason of this I think is having little confidence in their M&M control and fear losing everything, just play safe with the m&m and let them come to you or if they don't just make sure to contain. IMO waiting for 4-6 tanks is way too long because zerg will most likely be powering if you dont show him any pressure at all and by the time you move out with this he will have both the economy and units to contain and win. This will also allow the zerg to expand recklessly like you described, with no fear of losing them because you had no presence on the map anyway.
I wont comment on problems with mutas because they always fuck me too 
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On February 17 2004 14:29 Chobohobo wrote:
And for the love of god control your vessels away from scourge because us zergs love nothing more than that beautiful sound of exploding vessels.
LOL
BTW Thanks for the information 
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Norway10161 Posts
On February 16 2004 18:57 MPXMX wrote:
Vs 2-3 hatch lurker opening, is it always good to get a second factory and at what marine count/tech level is it good to get it?
- This is, imhno (in my humble newbie opinion), always good, but not untill you have your natural with gas up. That vessel is really more important if you trust enough in your m&m control to exp without the tank.
On February 16 2004 18:57 MPXMX wrote:
Also how do you know when to expand vs zerg. Because of their powerful droppping abilities, I find it almost disadvantageous to expand vs zerg, because that doubles the amount of key points to defend and ties me down in offensive ability. What factors do you consider vs zerg when expanding?
- For me I pretty much expand when I get the basic force of ~24 m&m, 1-2 tank and a vessel, or a fast exp which is pretty strong. Sometimes sooner if they such at lurker control and the initial m&m can keep them in their base a bit longer than usual. Also sometimes later if they go really hard on muta and delay lurkers.
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try moving dropships around the edge of the map instead of going straight for their base
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Stop being a pussy.
Brood War is about taking gambles. Also micro better.
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YEah man, you HAVE to gamble sometimes to win in bw vs good people, unless your like nada or something.
Don't worry about losing dropships to scourges, just drop harass anyway, if you lose to scourges OH WELL, try harder next game. One thing to try is always keep your eye on the dropship, and do it gosu boxer style where you move the dropship in a sqaure while droppin marines at the same time to kill coming scourges. Its very very hard, but practice it and it comes to you after a while.
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tvz early game is like pvt early game, until ur opponent techs a lil ur in control. so keep it, maybe bunker outside his base or fast 1 rax exp.
also, even though im only just learning the finer points of terran (recently switched from P) i see 2 main builds, a fast ebay/stim build which gives u +1 weapons and stim which rapes all zerg but leaves u lacking on tech, or a fast build to tanks, or higher up to drops or vessels. in my opinion even when a drop fails miserably its not a game ender, cuz uve teched most of the way to vessels ^^
if ur mm micro sux and u dont cant make it work (usually spread ur rines in a line v. one lurker, verse more than 1 hang back till ur gosu) then go metal build and refer to other thread about metal v. zerg. GL!
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i also wanna say about those 2 build the purpose ^^ the fast stim/ebay is for medics fast and to take down late teching zergs (who think they can match ur rine v. lings :p) and to break thru zerg bases who think they can scrimp on defence (not make more than 2-3 sunks) so u break thru and own their exp if they took one.
the tech build is better to drop in the main (duh) and to avoid those nasty pointy sunken colonies. vessels are GREAT, and can substitute for tanks when u d-matrix and run one rine in, then clean with the rest. remember this is mostly v. sunkens, although it works v. lurks to an extent too. remember at least 2 rax at all times till u think ur gosu enuf ^^ and tanks are good to keep a zerg in his base. 2-3 owns sunks/lurks with good micro and u should be able to power once u contained or harassed a zerg and established ur dominion over the middle of the map.
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i dont know if anyone said this but you should put a shield over your dropship from the vessel
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Perli, good idea, only my problem is that I know what the zerg wants to do and I still don't quite make it through the game.
"Don't worry about losing dropship to scourges" is not a good advice. Also what do you mean by taking a gamble? Flyhing a dropship past overlords around my base and hoping the zerg forgot to build scourge or didn't see it? For those that I assumed it, I am not a complete newbie. c0-b6ish usually on wgtour when I play. With that in mind, any more input?
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On February 16 2004 18:57 MPXMX wrote:
TvZ is the most problematic match up for me. It is a devilish puzzle and zerg is the devil. There are two things that make me lose. The zerg lurker contain holds me inside my base for long enough that the zerg, provided he is good, takes several expansions and outproduces me.
Break out faster / use Dropships.
Also muta harass into lurker disables my offense early on, contains me. Then the zerg gets 2 more gas expansions, and 12 mutas are effective at stopping drops. By the time Ihave a large enough force to move out against lurks, guards are hatching and its over.
All the advice to deal with Gaurd rush you will ever need.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=6222
Dropship harass is a good thing, but it is often overlooked by me as I am simply cursed when it comes to scourges. I am paranoid and terrified of those winged bastards. Losing a renegade dropship to them when the game seems even impedes my progress just enough for the zerg to steal the time and take enough land that I am not able to overrun it.
Try to keep an idea of where Scourges are often patrolling and when your Dropship gets closer acctually watch it in your main view and get ready to unload if you see Scourge coming. Remember to unload while moving, if you can't do that then I can't help you...
So I'm often afraid to use dropships for the fear that losing it may be a game-ender. Regardless, it is a good diversion guerilla tactic and an effective distraction so it's worth finding a way to sneak one out for the damage it is able to do. My question lies elsewhere. WHen i get 4-6 tanks I move out. A few lurkers always pop at the entrance to my base, but as soon as i move into open ground I get flanked and owned. I suppose it's due to ground force inferiority. So...
Someone else posted micro tips in this thread. Also you could be moving out too late.
Vs 2-3 hatch lurker opening, is it always good to get a second factory and at what marine count/tech level is it good to get it?
If they go Lurkers ALWAYS get a second factory. Timing is semi complicated. If you went 3 rax then some time around when you are expanding is good. If you went 2 rax tech then you need to wait untill you are mining your second gas untill you will have the gas to support a second fact.
Also how do you know when to expand vs zerg. Because of their powerful droppping abilities, I find it almost disadvantageous to expand vs zerg, because that doubles the amount of key points to defend and ties me down in offensive ability. What factors do you consider vs zerg when expanding?
I'm not sure of exact time, but you do need to expand. Not extremely early but at some point you do need to. Also, this sounds n00bish but you should have no less then three Bunkers defending your expo as well as a couple Turrets. Two at the entrance to it to defend against counter attacks, and one near the cliff to defend lurkers. Also, make sure that you are constantly macroing as much as possible to in addition to the Bunkers you have M&M/Tank at hom.
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Umm the answer is your macro is bad
in tvz u really shouldn't drop if they have 10 mutas or more
once u expand build a second factory
if they are getting GUARDS and two expansions, there is no way they can support this without getting killed by a semi-early tank/vessel/mm attack a little bit after you expand
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In TvZ i get up to 70 UC really quick, like at 9~ mins, without fast expo, but then when i expo i really slow down. Obviously the transition is fucked up. Because even though im spending all the cash, i am not getting much in return (expo, defense, static in main against drop etc). So it really indefinitely puts off the moment i have an effecient army.
So perhaps contrary to you, Reaper the answer is less defense or something. I don't know, zerg harass can be really annoying...
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On February 29 2004 21:56 MPXMX wrote:
In TvZ i get up to 70 UC really quick, like at 9~ mins, without fast expo, but then when i expo i really slow down. Obviously the transition is fucked up. Because even though im spending all the cash, i am not getting much in return (expo, defense, static in main against drop etc). So it really indefinitely puts off the moment i have an effecient army.
So perhaps contrary to you, Reaper the answer is less defense or something. I don't know, zerg harass can be really annoying...
To elaborate on the Bunkers at your expo, don't build them untill you move out. Like FroZ said you have to macro better so once you move out you are still maing the Marines to fill your Bunkers.
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EPT
