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On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure.
I'm only at D level, and I honestly have never encountered any of those builds. Probably should've mentioned that in my post.
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On February 08 2010 02:14 Sentient66 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure. I'm only at D level, and I honestly have never encountered any of those builds. Probably should've mentioned that in my post.
well, at D level against it u just make hydras, a-move, win. Nothing special needed.
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On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure.
Let me edit what he said. Because his point is fairly valid and this is how my 2PORT wraith was countered once. If you don't see an EXPO, there are 3 SCV's on gas, and only 1 Factory for a long time, you know what it is.
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Are you asking how to counter Wraiths when you know it's coming, or asking for a build that's general enough to counter Wraiths if the Terran so happens to choose them but specific enough so that your 3 hatch muta build doesn't suffer?
Answers are very different.
However, in general, spores are a good idea if you don't have confidence in muta timing and muta micro.
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On February 08 2010 14:38 kineSiS- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure. Let me edit what he said. Because his point is fairly valid and this is how my 2PORT wraith was countered once. If you don't see an EXPO, there are 3 SCV's on gas, and only 1 Factory for a long time, you know what it is.
I suppose if you sacrifice an overlord you would be able to see, but good Terrans won't let you see anything after their initial Factory. The fog of war will probably cover up the first Fact before it even completes.
In general, if you don't see an expo (easy to scout as opposed to his main), expect some sort of cheese and play more conservatively (drop, mnm, wraiths, speed vulture runby, siege mode rush).
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What I do:
-sim city your natural with 1 sunken (to protect against vultures)
-get bare minimum # of hydras to defend your overlords/workers. Against 1-port wraith/drop, you can do this with 5-6 hydras total (2-3 at each mineral lines). But against 2port wraith, this will be a significant # of hydras; I'd say at the very least 5 at each mineral line.
-get spire + overlord speed as soon as you can while defending with hydras
-as soon as mutas hatch, go attack him. If you see a wraith cloak, retreat back to overlords, and wait for overlord speed to finish before attacking again
-at this point, you basically play a standard ZvT against mech or bio.
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On February 09 2010 01:45 BlasiuS wrote:
What I do:
-sim city your natural with 1 sunken (to protect against vultures)
-get bare minimum # of hydras to defend your overlords/workers. Against 1-port wraith/drop, you can do this with 5-6 hydras total (2-3 at each mineral lines). But against 2port wraith, this will be a significant # of hydras; I'd say at the very least 5 at each mineral line.
-get spire + overlord speed as soon as you can while defending with hydras
-as soon as mutas hatch, go attack him. If you see a wraith cloak, retreat back to overlords, and wait for overlord speed to finish before attacking again
-at this point, you basically play a standard ZvT against mech.
except 2port wraith is followed by bio 90% of the time.
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I prefer 3hatch builds so much more than 2hatch builds, but after getting raped in so many ways to the wiiiiiiiiiiiide variety of builds that a Terran can do with a fast gas build, I kinda think that 2hatch mutas is the "safest" build because it can be used against pretty much every one of the mech, fake mech, biomech, 2port, sparks, etc. builds. It is the most versatile. Just make sure you get a den after you start lair and get 2hydras to defend against vults and pew pew at the first wraith that will come at you in the case of 2port wraiths which will arrive before you get mutas out.
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BO that will defend all gay mech shit and give you map control fast if you do it flawlessly:
1) 12 hatch 12 pool 11 gas, 4 lings. use lings to check proxy fact.
2) sunken at 17 or 18
3) at 90% spire completion, check if he expanded.
- (he expanded) gas at 200/600 spire, third hatch third base.
- (he didn't) gas + spire + den at the same time, use den and spire to sim city. build 3 hydras, a drone, 2 ovies. BOTH ovies build at natural. Gather all ovies at natural. 2 hydras in nat, 1 hydra in main.
This will prevent:
- fantasy vulture drop because mutas come as the dropship comes
- any gay x4 vult runby, with 2 hydras in nat blocking everything with sunk
- 2 port wraith, you wont lose a single ovie or drone if you place/build your ovies and hydras where i told you to.
your 6 mutas will allow you to scout him 100% and adapt whatever way you need to.
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My general strategy is to 3hatch, get Hydras with speed... then have about 4-5 Hydras at both bases to defend overlords and drones as you tech towards overlord speed etc. You can move out with some Hydras and pressure them since they'll most likely be very low on units and could even be taking their nat. Even 6 Hydras moving out with Zerglings clearing mines if necessary can cause a lot of damage and even force the Wraiths back to defend. Then I just saturate my minerals and keep building a lot of Hydras, researching Lurker and overlord speed soon, and then when I have my Lurkers I basically just make 2 spores per base and then move out with my whole army. Normally I'll have a crapton of units and just completely crush the Terran's army, beat even much higher rank players like this.
I think that this should work vs every fast gas build. If it's a fast MnM rush, you'd be surprised at how many mnm you need to kill 24 Hydras.
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Do the build if you suspect 2port (you see early gas, etc.)
A Build That Works Against 2Port And Also Allows Normal Game If Not 2Port
12hatch
13pool
15hatch
4 lings when pool finishes (should have 17 supply)
17colony
17gas
overlord
Lair with first 100
Den with next 50
Ovie at 24 supply.
Also at 24 supply, build 3 hydras.
Build more hydras as needed.
Move all Overlords either to main Lair or nat Hatch (to protect them)
Spire after Lair
Spores, one at main, one at nat
Ovie speed
Mutas
If he went 2port Wraiths, your Hydras should come out just as his Wraiths arrive at your base. If he doesn't go Wraiths, you can skip Spores and pump 9 mutas at regular 6:30 timing. I like this build because it's good against 2port Wraiths, but at the same time, allows you to open normal 3 hatch muta.
Here's a replay of me doing it, except I get ebay rushed in the beginning of the game so I get a bit delayed. Timings are all similar still.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3417 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.rep
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3418 SuGeT PanStRyKeRZ.rep
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3419 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.rep
He does 2port Wraith every game.
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On February 10 2010 13:34 StRyKeR wrote:Do the build if you suspect 2port (you see early gas, etc.) A Build That Works Against 2Port And Also Allows Normal Game If Not 2Port12hatch 13pool 15hatch 4 lings when pool finishes (should have 17 supply) 17colony 17gas overlord Lair with first 100 Den with next 50 Ovie at 24 supply. Also at 24 supply, build 3 hydras. Build more hydras as needed. Move all Overlords either to main Lair or nat Hatch (to protect them) Spire after Lair Spores, one at main, one at nat Ovie speed Mutas If he went 2port Wraiths, your Hydras should come out just as his Wraiths arrive at your base. If he doesn't go Wraiths, you can skip Spores and pump 9 mutas at regular 6:30 timing. I like this build because it's good against 2port Wraiths, but at the same time, allows you to open normal 3 hatch muta. Here's a replay of me doing it, except I get ebay rushed in the beginning of the game so I get a bit delayed. Timings are all similar still. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3417 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.rephttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3418 SuGeT PanStRyKeRZ.rephttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3419 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.repHe does 2port Wraith every game.
Thank you this helped alot
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EPT
