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So I decided to start playing some iccup again and I tend to run into Korean players and all my losses have been to Koreans so far... haha
So anyway, I don't really know how to deal with this particular build that these Terrans do. I detect that they are going mech and anticipate the vultures. BUT, when I see wraiths come in, I try to get hydras.
I realize that I lose too much overlords and in the second game I made a desperate move by blocking his vults with my drones at HBR's choke T_T" very bad idea...
I find my hydras to be soo slow specially when the wraith micro is good and then they get the cloak tech and killing my overlords is just disastrous..
I'm still pretty much noob D-/D rank. Any help would be nice.
ZvT - ME(Reb3L) vs Ease
ZvT - Reb3L vs. Hwang
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sometimes i say fuck it and i build spores
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9 drone scout- > 3hatch before pool -> 3hatch hydra-> add evo+ missle upgrade/ 2 spore per base + tech lair+ get speed. drone saturation should be 3 on main gas, none on nat yet and ~ one per mineral on main + expo. more is fine.
if you can take your expo, take it, if not add 4th hatch in base when you have the money.
when spores done+ speed+range upgrades done , move out with your ~2-3 groups of hydra and overlords. generally you can break terran nat but if he turtled with tank just drone up and expo and play normally, make sure to scout for tech switches etc., and be wary of vulture drops gg gl
- drone up hard and only make ~7 hydra (less is fine, like 1-3, if you know he's 2port, but he might vulture drop/ runby and random gay shit like fast tank, etc so you prob want to get speed+ ~7 hydras asap)
- as soon as you see that 2nd wraith and know hes going 2 port, add the evo and colony ASAP and camp till your speed on overlords is done and move out.
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sick thanks.. watching those VODs right now x)
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i love 2port wraithing, but what completely kills me is muta and OL speed. mutas are just stronger, and i dont have time to get turrets in my main so its pretty GG. usually as terran i transition into mnm since mech is so freaking expensive and impossible off one base. if you fend off the wraiths you basically have the game provided you dont commit suicide.
hydras are pretty silly vs them, though, imo.
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yea 2port wraithing is pretty strong specially if the Z doesnt expect it.. almost turns it into sort of like a zvp.. except wraiths can be invisible and kill drones, sairs cant lol
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On February 07 2010 15:12 hyst.eric.al wrote:
i love 2port wraithing, but what completely kills me is muta and OL speed. mutas are just stronger, and i dont have time to get turrets in my main so its pretty GG. usually as terran i transition into mnm since mech is so freaking expensive and impossible off one base. if you fend off the wraiths you basically have the game provided you dont commit suicide.
hydras are pretty silly vs them, though, imo.
hydra is a good response but i prefer muta so i can expand easier and put pressure on his base should he fall back to his base instead of running in circles..
i hot key 1overlord (with speed), 2scourge, and 9 muta to 1 and block my ramp with my first 4lings and put a sunken at my natural to stop vulture harrass. I then try to corner the wraiths by flanking them with scourge grouped with an overlord. If they are dumb enough to fly their wraiths back to their base while im chasing them i take out scvs along the way.
If i scout on 9 i can decide to switch to 2hatch muta or do what Heavonearth was talking about going hydras and playing defensively allowing my self to have a greater economy and out macro my opponent with hydras and push.
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On February 07 2010 17:47 InFdude wrote:
To what ranks does this apply?When I try scourge they micro snipe them and its just a waste of gas.
Leta pretty much raped all the zergs in proleague with it because of the "surprise" factor. Though it no longer works at that level, as long as you have the element of surprise you win.
Best way to do this build is to 11 rax/12gas with a wall, proxy factory in a place an overlord/ling wouldnt go, then place 2 starports at one edge of your base.
edit: as for my favorite counter, LURKER ALL IN. Just hide 3-4 hydras somewhere near his base, build a shiton of spore/2sunks at your natural. He will not have detection, and his wall cant be repaired with 3-4 lurkers smacking it, after its done don't be an idiot and move all your lurkers into his scvs, as soon as you know that one can make it to his mineral line, keep rest at his ramp/choke so the terran float hacks won't allow scvs to mine.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On February 07 2010 14:53 HeavOnEarth wrote:
9 drone scout- > 3hatch before pool -> 3hatch hydra-> add evo+ missle upgrade/ 2 spore per base + tech lair+ get speed. drone saturation should be 3 on main gas, none on nat yet and ~ one per mineral on main + expo. more is fine.
if you can take your expo, take it, if not add 4th hatch in base when you have the money.
when spores done+ speed+range upgrades done , move out with your ~2-3 groups of hydra and overlords. generally you can break terran nat but if he turtled with tank just drone up and expo and play normally, make sure to scout for tech switches etc., and be wary of vulture drops gg gl
- drone up hard and only make ~7 hydra (less is fine, like 1-3, if you know he's 2port, but he might vulture drop/ runby and random gay shit like fast tank, etc so you prob want to get speed+ ~7 hydras asap)
- as soon as you see that 2nd wraith and know hes going 2 port, add the evo and colony ASAP and camp till your speed on overlords is done and move out.
Yeah this is good. If you went 2 hatch, just don't get a Lair and plop down a Hydra den instead. Pump hydras until you have 6-8, then start Drone whoring. Terran shouldn't be able to get any economic harassment in there. Regardless, just go Hydras first if you see not bio.
A neat trick against 2 port wraith is to get quick lurks, and stop lurker 2 of them in Terran's natural. When he pushes out to take his expand, you know the drill. It's fairly useful if you don't get spotted.
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United States11393 Posts
On February 07 2010 18:05 Mystlord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2010 14:53 HeavOnEarth wrote:
9 drone scout- > 3hatch before pool -> 3hatch hydra-> add evo+ missle upgrade/ 2 spore per base + tech lair+ get speed. drone saturation should be 3 on main gas, none on nat yet and ~ one per mineral on main + expo. more is fine.
if you can take your expo, take it, if not add 4th hatch in base when you have the money.
when spores done+ speed+range upgrades done , move out with your ~2-3 groups of hydra and overlords. generally you can break terran nat but if he turtled with tank just drone up and expo and play normally, make sure to scout for tech switches etc., and be wary of vulture drops gg gl
- drone up hard and only make ~7 hydra (less is fine, like 1-3, if you know he's 2port, but he might vulture drop/ runby and random gay shit like fast tank, etc so you prob want to get speed+ ~7 hydras asap)
- as soon as you see that 2nd wraith and know hes going 2 port, add the evo and colony ASAP and camp till your speed on overlords is done and move out. Yeah this is good. If you went 2 hatch, just don't get a Lair and plop down a Hydra den instead. Pump hydras until you have 6-8, then start Drone whoring. Terran shouldn't be able to get any economic harassment in there. Regardless, just go Hydras first if you see not bio. A neat trick against 2 port wraith is to get quick lurks, and stop lurker 2 of them in Terran's natural. When he pushes out to take his expand, you know the drill. It's fairly useful if you don't get spotted.
Err, if you 2hatch then you really should get a lair and den as well.
You only really need to make like 1-2 hydras to deter wraiths until mutas are out. Just don't forget ovie speed and you'll probably take the game.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/14449_Jaedong_vs_Leta
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get 2 hydras (you should obviously get the den with your 2 hatch muta if hes fast gas). Get your spire. At half it's HP get a 2nd gas. try and not lose drones or ovies to the first 2-3 wraiths. When your spire finishes make 6 muta and ovie speed. Keep making muta and add an evo for 1-2 spore colonies at main and expo. Move out with your muta and kill terran with your control. He cant counter and do damage and unless he's very good he wont have the micro to live the attack. If he does, you're still fine.
EDIT: you can probably get the ovie speed earlier actually, im not 100% on the timing of it.
And if you 3 hatch, again same principle, just make hydras and get to a spire. He'll have way more time to kill stuff, but with 3 hatcheries youll probably be able to recover, and your muta timing will be difficult for him to deal with.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina29 Posts
You can get speed hydras. They work for both Wraiths and vultures.
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On February 07 2010 17:47 InFdude wrote:
To what ranks does this apply?When I try scourge they micro snipe them and its just a waste of gas.
you group the 1st 2 scourge with mutas and an speedlord, so they have to run, you can see them cloaked, and attack them while chasing them. I like to use hot key 1
the next few scourge group them witha speed lord and try to surprise the terran with a flank. I like to use hot key 2-3
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I find just going 3 Hatch Hydra and defending till you get Overlord Speed an easy way to deal with the wraiths. I usually just continue by pushing out with HydraLurker and getting 1/2 Spores at each base, and if I held off the wraiths with minimal losses Terran will have a hard time taking his expansion
Watch Effort vs BaBy (I think) on Medusa for what I described working perfectly
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Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff.
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if you opponent gets gas, get hydra den + hydra speed before lair, then get a couple hydras, position then well, if he continues wraith production, get ovie speed and scourges, don't forget hydra range upgrade. Also scout him with scourge or ling asap if he's going mnm or mech, and if hes going mnm, get lurker upgrade, continue with hydralurk, expand, get 2 evos for +1/+1, win.
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On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff.
it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure.
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On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure.
I'm only at D level, and I honestly have never encountered any of those builds. Probably should've mentioned that in my post.
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On February 08 2010 02:14 Sentient66 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure. I'm only at D level, and I honestly have never encountered any of those builds. Probably should've mentioned that in my post.
well, at D level against it u just make hydras, a-move, win. Nothing special needed.
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On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure.
Let me edit what he said. Because his point is fairly valid and this is how my 2PORT wraith was countered once. If you don't see an EXPO, there are 3 SCV's on gas, and only 1 Factory for a long time, you know what it is.
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Are you asking how to counter Wraiths when you know it's coming, or asking for a build that's general enough to counter Wraiths if the Terran so happens to choose them but specific enough so that your 3 hatch muta build doesn't suffer?
Answers are very different.
However, in general, spores are a good idea if you don't have confidence in muta timing and muta micro.
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On February 08 2010 14:38 kineSiS- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2010 02:08 ProoM wrote:On February 08 2010 01:59 Sentient66 wrote:
Whenever I see a wall-in with a fast refinery and no expansion, I assume it's 2 port wraith. To counter this, I make a good sim-city at my natural with 2 hatches and an evo chamber, and one sunken behind it to prevent initial vultures. After that, I play it like a normal 3 hatch muta, and get a spore at each mineral line. From there, harass with mutas and scourge the wraiths. The idea here is to prevent him from keeping his natural expo. If I haven't won by this point, transition into hive tech and normal late game stuff. it can be fast drop (either mnm or vults) it can be 2fact push or 3 fact allin, it can be double rax + tanks sunken break it can be 2 fact vult runby it can be Sparks terran sunken bust and lots other things like iloveoov's fake mech, it can even be just fake gas into 2 rax pressure. Let me edit what he said. Because his point is fairly valid and this is how my 2PORT wraith was countered once. If you don't see an EXPO, there are 3 SCV's on gas, and only 1 Factory for a long time, you know what it is.
I suppose if you sacrifice an overlord you would be able to see, but good Terrans won't let you see anything after their initial Factory. The fog of war will probably cover up the first Fact before it even completes.
In general, if you don't see an expo (easy to scout as opposed to his main), expect some sort of cheese and play more conservatively (drop, mnm, wraiths, speed vulture runby, siege mode rush).
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What I do:
-sim city your natural with 1 sunken (to protect against vultures)
-get bare minimum # of hydras to defend your overlords/workers. Against 1-port wraith/drop, you can do this with 5-6 hydras total (2-3 at each mineral lines). But against 2port wraith, this will be a significant # of hydras; I'd say at the very least 5 at each mineral line.
-get spire + overlord speed as soon as you can while defending with hydras
-as soon as mutas hatch, go attack him. If you see a wraith cloak, retreat back to overlords, and wait for overlord speed to finish before attacking again
-at this point, you basically play a standard ZvT against mech or bio.
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On February 09 2010 01:45 BlasiuS wrote:
What I do:
-sim city your natural with 1 sunken (to protect against vultures)
-get bare minimum # of hydras to defend your overlords/workers. Against 1-port wraith/drop, you can do this with 5-6 hydras total (2-3 at each mineral lines). But against 2port wraith, this will be a significant # of hydras; I'd say at the very least 5 at each mineral line.
-get spire + overlord speed as soon as you can while defending with hydras
-as soon as mutas hatch, go attack him. If you see a wraith cloak, retreat back to overlords, and wait for overlord speed to finish before attacking again
-at this point, you basically play a standard ZvT against mech.
except 2port wraith is followed by bio 90% of the time.
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I prefer 3hatch builds so much more than 2hatch builds, but after getting raped in so many ways to the wiiiiiiiiiiiide variety of builds that a Terran can do with a fast gas build, I kinda think that 2hatch mutas is the "safest" build because it can be used against pretty much every one of the mech, fake mech, biomech, 2port, sparks, etc. builds. It is the most versatile. Just make sure you get a den after you start lair and get 2hydras to defend against vults and pew pew at the first wraith that will come at you in the case of 2port wraiths which will arrive before you get mutas out.
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BO that will defend all gay mech shit and give you map control fast if you do it flawlessly:
1) 12 hatch 12 pool 11 gas, 4 lings. use lings to check proxy fact.
2) sunken at 17 or 18
3) at 90% spire completion, check if he expanded.
- (he expanded) gas at 200/600 spire, third hatch third base.
- (he didn't) gas + spire + den at the same time, use den and spire to sim city. build 3 hydras, a drone, 2 ovies. BOTH ovies build at natural. Gather all ovies at natural. 2 hydras in nat, 1 hydra in main.
This will prevent:
- fantasy vulture drop because mutas come as the dropship comes
- any gay x4 vult runby, with 2 hydras in nat blocking everything with sunk
- 2 port wraith, you wont lose a single ovie or drone if you place/build your ovies and hydras where i told you to.
your 6 mutas will allow you to scout him 100% and adapt whatever way you need to.
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My general strategy is to 3hatch, get Hydras with speed... then have about 4-5 Hydras at both bases to defend overlords and drones as you tech towards overlord speed etc. You can move out with some Hydras and pressure them since they'll most likely be very low on units and could even be taking their nat. Even 6 Hydras moving out with Zerglings clearing mines if necessary can cause a lot of damage and even force the Wraiths back to defend. Then I just saturate my minerals and keep building a lot of Hydras, researching Lurker and overlord speed soon, and then when I have my Lurkers I basically just make 2 spores per base and then move out with my whole army. Normally I'll have a crapton of units and just completely crush the Terran's army, beat even much higher rank players like this.
I think that this should work vs every fast gas build. If it's a fast MnM rush, you'd be surprised at how many mnm you need to kill 24 Hydras.
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Do the build if you suspect 2port (you see early gas, etc.)
A Build That Works Against 2Port And Also Allows Normal Game If Not 2Port
12hatch
13pool
15hatch
4 lings when pool finishes (should have 17 supply)
17colony
17gas
overlord
Lair with first 100
Den with next 50
Ovie at 24 supply.
Also at 24 supply, build 3 hydras.
Build more hydras as needed.
Move all Overlords either to main Lair or nat Hatch (to protect them)
Spire after Lair
Spores, one at main, one at nat
Ovie speed
Mutas
If he went 2port Wraiths, your Hydras should come out just as his Wraiths arrive at your base. If he doesn't go Wraiths, you can skip Spores and pump 9 mutas at regular 6:30 timing. I like this build because it's good against 2port Wraiths, but at the same time, allows you to open normal 3 hatch muta.
Here's a replay of me doing it, except I get ebay rushed in the beginning of the game so I get a bit delayed. Timings are all similar still.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3417 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.rep
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3418 SuGeT PanStRyKeRZ.rep
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3419 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.rep
He does 2port Wraith every game.
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On February 10 2010 13:34 StRyKeR wrote:Do the build if you suspect 2port (you see early gas, etc.) A Build That Works Against 2Port And Also Allows Normal Game If Not 2Port12hatch 13pool 15hatch 4 lings when pool finishes (should have 17 supply) 17colony 17gas overlord Lair with first 100 Den with next 50 Ovie at 24 supply. Also at 24 supply, build 3 hydras. Build more hydras as needed. Move all Overlords either to main Lair or nat Hatch (to protect them) Spire after Lair Spores, one at main, one at nat Ovie speed Mutas If he went 2port Wraiths, your Hydras should come out just as his Wraiths arrive at your base. If he doesn't go Wraiths, you can skip Spores and pump 9 mutas at regular 6:30 timing. I like this build because it's good against 2port Wraiths, but at the same time, allows you to open normal 3 hatch muta. Here's a replay of me doing it, except I get ebay rushed in the beginning of the game so I get a bit delayed. Timings are all similar still. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3417 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.rephttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3418 SuGeT PanStRyKeRZ.rephttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/replays/3419 PanStRyKeRZ SuGeT.repHe does 2port Wraith every game.
Thank you this helped alot
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EPT
