EPTI guess Parasite would be a good idea if you want to keep a careful watch, especially since you only need a queens nest, but it wouldn't surprise me that any decent Toss will murder the queen since it's a rather weak unit, especially when you're dealing with mass sair.
[H] Zerg counter to Bisu reavers and corsairs? - Page 2
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
I guess Parasite would be a good idea if you want to keep a careful watch, especially since you only need a queens nest, but it wouldn't surprise me that any decent Toss will murder the queen since it's a rather weak unit, especially when you're dealing with mass sair. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On September 28 2009 15:07 spoolinoveryou wrote: actuallllly bisu is known for reaver/sair also. i remember watching this build where he went reaver/sair then transitions into sairs/carriers. bisu is known for being better than anyone else at multitasking meaning he can pull of anything | ||
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DeSu
Australia91 Posts
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Zvi
Israel29 Posts
1. You can try to end to game, or do a serious ammount of damage before the protoss starts teching (something like lings speed into mass lings, although it's considered a cheesey build..) 2. If it's a pure sair/reaver (meaning he barely has any ground forces) it means you can expand like hell as he transitions into his shuttles and reavers. (also it won't be easy for him to get a 3rd base , as long as it's not established you can always try to deny that) 3. Devourers are usefull. in late game. 4. Some pro games had their luck with Ensnaring the clump of sairs and the shuttle so it's easier for scourge to catch them and hydras can chase them off. 5. Burrow tech is useful, besides burrowing around lings to get sight range and know where that huge clump is moving to, and besides the fact you can burrow drones to dodge scarabs, you can burrow hydras to set a trap, and unburrow them right when the sairs are ontop of you. Err it got longer then I was aiming for :p sorry. But I hope those general tips help. I myself don't deal too well with sair/reaver :/ | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On September 28 2009 15:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting. protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles That'd be easy to counter. Build a small ground force to harass your not very defended expo with zealots and then when you are distracted reaver sair the shit out of you. Those expos, first will either be totally unsaturated or be guarded. By totally unsaturated I mean like 1 or 2 drones, because you will be investing so much money into those expos you won't have the larvae to choose between a force to defend against sair/reaver and harassing ground force AND saturate the expansions. I would slowly build up expansion while containing the Protoss because Sair/Reaver is harass, it can't take out a Zerg army. While containing him, build lurkers and the rest scourge obs and then defend your bases, to expos then keep expoing. The only reason Savior 0-3'd Bisu is because the build was not know back then and there was no way Savior could've know how to counter it. Savior is known to adapt VERY well in-game./ | ||
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CookieswithMilk
23 Posts
On September 28 2009 15:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting. protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles I dunno if this has been said yet but what you meant. The counter to the bisu build is to outexpand and build a mass army of ground units to stop the harass but that is what the bisu build is trying to do. The bisu build isn't to destroy the opponent but to contain and prevent expansions from being made. EDIT: The sair/reaver build is very mobile because you can destroy the expansion of the zerg and still have time to defend ur natural or undefended expansion. An option the zerg opponent can do is have a few groups of hydras burrow certain key points throughout the map the protoss player might run pass by. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On September 29 2009 12:30 kineSiS- wrote: That'd be easy to counter. Build a small ground force to harass your not very defended expo with zealots and then when you are distracted reaver sair the shit out of you. Those expos, first will either be totally unsaturated or be guarded. By totally unsaturated I mean like 1 or 2 drones, because you will be investing so much money into those expos you won't have the larvae to choose between a force to defend against sair/reaver and harassing ground force AND saturate the expansions. I would slowly build up expansion while containing the Protoss because Sair/Reaver is harass, it can't take out a Zerg army. While containing him, build lurkers and the rest scourge obs and then defend your bases, to expos then keep expoing. The only reason Savior 0-3'd Bisu is because the build was not know back then and there was no way Savior could've know how to counter it. Savior is known to adapt VERY well in-game./ Although you're right in terms of how the zerg has to balance between expo and hydra army, in general mass expanding is pretty successful against sair/reaver. There's simply not enough of a protoss ground army to keep the zerg honest. I would also add that mass scourges work too against sair/reaver if you have the gas(keep up the armor upgrade). Sure, technically speaking 6+ sairs with upgrades destroy scourges, but that's with scourge coming from one direction and with great micro. Even progamers don't always micro perfectly. And the protoss is pretty much fucked if you manage to snipe the shuttle(s). On the subject of progamers using sair/reaver, Stork comes to mind first. Especially his game vs Gorush in the PL finals. | ||
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Waffles
Romania605 Posts
On September 29 2009 11:48 Zvi wrote: Although i'm not a very good player, I think everyone forgot some important things with dealing against sair/reaver. 1. You can try to end to game, or do a serious ammount of damage before the protoss starts teching (something like lings speed into mass lings, although it's considered a cheesey build..) 2. If it's a pure sair/reaver (meaning he barely has any ground forces) it means you can expand like hell as he transitions into his shuttles and reavers. (also it won't be easy for him to get a 3rd base , as long as it's not established you can always try to deny that) 3. Devourers are usefull. in late game. 4. Some pro games had their luck with Ensnaring the clump of sairs and the shuttle so it's easier for scourge to catch them and hydras can chase them off. 5. Burrow tech is useful, besides burrowing around lings to get sight range and know where that huge clump is moving to, and besides the fact you can burrow drones to dodge scarabs, you can burrow hydras to set a trap, and unburrow them right when the sairs are ontop of you. Err it got longer then I was aiming for :p sorry. But I hope those general tips help. I myself don't deal too well with sair/reaver :/ some of these types are good, but not that one. The point of sair reaver is map control, if you try to expand, youre just gonna end up wasting money on expansions hes gonna take out. Even some pros have problems keeping track of their bases, expand to an amount where you can multi task and be able to decently defend all of them, leaving bases in the open are free food for sair reaver | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
sair reaver is a hard build to do since the Protoss would really struggle on the builds' early stages because he needs at least 3 mining gases to get those units up on the air. He would, more often than not, need to do really good damage on the first handful of sairs and 2 reavers in the shuttle. If you manage to deflect the first drop (which entails picking off the shuttle w/reavers) without losing much then I guess you're pretty ok. Everything is not hopeless though if you can't pick of the shuttle. Just try to minimize your loses and go hydras + burrow I think. Limit his expansion. That is very important (well of course, hahaha). Anyway, sair reaver is a build that is disproportionate to the gas it needs. I don't use sair reaver but from the games I saw, sair reaver would entail 2 fully loaded shuttles w/reavers and a group or more of sairs. I think the Toss would be saturated with minerals and he'll spend them on cannons to defend expo's. Also, take note of island expansions since it would be really hard to take them out when sair reaver gets critical point. I guess it's just a matter of limiting the protoss and riding an eco advantage to victory. Uhm, why are people recommending massing expansions? Sair reaver can just fly around the map and rape the shit ouf of those expansions. Maybe you can start to expand when you pick off the first shuttle. Because by then, it would take time for him to get another shuttle + 2 reavers off 3 bases with only 2 gas. If you manage to take the initiative after picking off the first shuttle without major loses, then you would have a very good advantage. You would then be free to expand, mass units and deflect the next attempt on sair reaver, but most decent players would switch builds because getting your first shuttle killed without killing anything and still trying for another sair reaver attempt would be suicidal because you need to kill anything that moves on that second attempt - and this is really hard because this time, going sair reaver for the protoss WILL be about making a comeback/getting even rather than getting a lead (add the fact that by this time, eco from your expansion will be kicking and you will rape anything that moves with your scourge and hydras). If you do manage to deflect the first shuttle, the P would most likely switch to zeal/goon/temp but it would still take time and this will most likely happen with him having 2 bases and you with 3 bases. I think you can even push before storm kicks on or even before his units hit critical mass. | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On September 29 2009 20:39 Cloud wrote: To be honest you cant fight air with air in a zvp. Dont bother getting air carapace. Yeah, the Best vs some Zerg on outsider will be a perfect example on this. | ||
Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
On September 28 2009 15:07 spoolinoveryou wrote: actuallllly bisu is known for reaver/sair also. i remember watching this build where he went reaver/sair then transitions into sairs/carriers. Bisu Reaver/Sair refers specifically to taking Blue Storm's 6/12 base with your first Reaver as your third base. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
Bisu v Jaedong pretty much perfect reaver/sair into carriers, amazing to watch Bisu pull this off also english commentary + Show Spoiler + perhaps my favorite game of all time | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On September 28 2009 15:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting. protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles ugh, do u know that bisu uses reaver/sair even more than he use dt/sair? its called "bisu build" because he popularized it in you know which game... He wasn't even who invented it, he just popularized. | ||
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0cz3c
United States564 Posts
On September 28 2009 14:55 scintilliaSD wrote: Nal_rA is the original master of Reaver/Sair into Carrier PvZ, and he's the only person I've seen do it successfully (except Pj vs. sAviOr in WCG) Bisu v. Jaedong on Andromeda. Fantastic game. Edit: Link provided two posts above me. >.< | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On September 29 2009 20:39 Cloud wrote: To be honest you cant fight air with air in a zvp. Dont bother getting air carapace. Didn't Yarnc win against Much on Andromeda with the usage of a lot of air tech? I don't remember the details of the game besides that some of the big battles were fought almost entirely on the air. edit: Or was it Luxury? | ||
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knightpraetor
United States180 Posts
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Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
I find plague can be really good against sair/reaver, does anyone else use this? | ||
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