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Hello TL, this is my first post here so I hope i don't do anything wrong.
Anyway, so I recently started playing battlenet after endlessly raping my older brothers in starcraft, and I'm really enjoying it, I find I learn so much more playing on battlenet. Anyway, I was wondering what is the Zerg counter to the protoss going reavers and corsairs? I usually deal with the corsairs with scourge, but I'm not sure how to take out those damn reavers!
Also, a few more newbie questions:
1. Why do people ask me to ally with them when I beat them?
2. What are these C+, D- ranks and all that I keep hearing about?
Thank you in advance. And if I posted this in the wrong section do tell me.
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If you see that your opponent does sair and reavers you can usally just pump out MASS hydras to defend the drops kill the sairs and maybe kill him if he is careless.
1.Because they dont want a lose in their stats
2.That is a ladder called Iccup.There Ranks which show your skilllevel.D-,D,D+,C-,C,C+,B-,B,B+,A-,A,A+,Olympic
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Jaedong hydralisks ![[image loading]](http://209.85.62.26/12390/191/emo/teach.gif)
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thanks. i did go hydralisks, i now see that my problem was i didn't scout for his expansions and didn't expand enough myself. One more question, why can't i select what country i'm from on TL in the profile settings. Is this because i'm under 18? Oh and also, how would I take on a lot of reavers head on (he used them at his forge wall)? Sorry for all the questions lol.
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I dont know about the country,sry.Never tried it by myself
If his wall is defend well enough you shouldnt attack but often theres a point where he does with some reaver and sairs and got 1-2 reavers on his expansion + a few cannons.you can attack snip the reaver out quickly kill the cannons and kill his expansion = gg
sure it doesent work all the time but often players are careless about their defend.Dont attack his wall if he got more then 2 well placed reaver.if he dosent harras you with his reavers and just stay at his base you can push your economeny and expand a few times
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bisu is known for dt/sair, not reaver/sair
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United States2822 Posts
Nal_rA is the original master of Reaver/Sair into Carrier PvZ, and he's the only person I've seen do it successfully (except Pj vs. sAviOr in WCG)
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You should try playing here:
http://www.iccup.com/
This is the website with the ranks people are asking about. People are much better there and you will improve quicker by playing there.
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On September 28 2009 14:49 resonance wrote:
bisu is known for dt/sair, not reaver/sair
actuallllly bisu is known for reaver/sair also.
i remember watching this build where he went reaver/sair then transitions into sairs/carriers.
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On September 28 2009 15:00 Elite00fm wrote:You should try playing here: http://www.iccup.com/This is the website with the ranks people are asking about. People are much better there and you will improve quicker by playing there.
I'll check it out, but I don't think I have the skill to play there yet.
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bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds
and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting.
protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles
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I thought bisu was known for the bisu build not reaver/sair.
Bisu build: Forge FE which transitiones into sairs and DTs.
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On September 28 2009 14:55 scintilliaSD wrote:
Nal_rA is the original master of Reaver/Sair into Carrier PvZ, and he's the only person I've seen do it successfully (except Pj vs. sAviOr in WCG)
Stork? =p
countering reaver sair would be killing as many corsairs as possible with scourge/patrolling hydras before they reach the critical no. of ~7 or so. doing drops of your own, targeted at protoss
s gas expos is also good for crippling his reaver/templar count. when going hydras you'll need to keep them alive as reavers can snipe them pretty quickly.
if u manage to scourge his sairs/shuttle then it'll be a huge advantage for you cos u can go muta/hydras respectively and protoss won't be able to stop your unit composition.
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On September 28 2009 15:32 Twilight Templar wrote:
I thought bisu was known for the bisu build not reaver/sair.
Bisu build: Forge FE which transitiones into sairs and DTs.
yeh i was wrong, sorry. got confused
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On September 28 2009 14:55 scintilliaSD wrote:
Nal_rA is the original master of Reaver/Sair into Carrier PvZ, and he's the only person I've seen do it successfully (except Pj vs. sAviOr in WCG)
Bisu vs. Jaedong @ andromeda
Stork vs. (some zerg) @ andromeda... was notable because it lasted 90+ minutes.
both were successful sair/reaver -> carrier
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On September 28 2009 16:52 RoieTRS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2009 14:55 scintilliaSD wrote:
Nal_rA is the original master of Reaver/Sair into Carrier PvZ, and he's the only person I've seen do it successfully (except Pj vs. sAviOr in WCG) Stork vs. (some zerg) @ andromeda... was notable because it lasted 90+ minutes.
GGplay...
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Best counter: 5hat hydra with hydraspeed before range. check liquipedia for the BO
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Note that you don't want to attack his cannon / reaver defenses head on. Instead take more bases. make more units and you can drop him with hydras later on in the game.
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On September 28 2009 15:09 DeSu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2009 15:00 Elite00fm wrote:You should try playing here: http://www.iccup.com/This is the website with the ranks people are asking about. People are much better there and you will improve quicker by playing there. I'll check it out, but I don't think I have the skill to play there yet.
For sure everyone can play there  @ least u can learn there more than on regular bettlenet.
Second thing is that its impossible to muta harass on battlenet due it high latency, so icc is much better at this point cuz there is lan latency and u can do whatever u want with ur mutas.
Thats my advice (and prolly everyone here will tell u to it also) that is better for u to leave bn and join iccup 
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When I think of what can beat reaver/sair (a build I don't like to do since it requires a lot of multitasking) the immediate upgrade is burrow. Rarely thought of, but quite effective. Most of the time in mid-game toss will not have obs coming with their sair/reaver, so keeping some hydra burrowed by your resources is always smart, as well as having burrow ready for your drones so when the toss drops reaver you can just burrow your drones and let your hydralisks unburrow.
I guess Parasite would be a good idea if you want to keep a careful watch, especially since you only need a queens nest, but it wouldn't surprise me that any decent Toss will murder the queen since it's a rather weak unit, especially when you're dealing with mass sair.
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On September 28 2009 15:07 spoolinoveryou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2009 14:49 resonance wrote:
bisu is known for dt/sair, not reaver/sair actuallllly bisu is known for reaver/sair also. i remember watching this build where he went reaver/sair then transitions into sairs/carriers.
bisu is known for being better than anyone else at multitasking meaning he can pull of anything
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thanks for the advice everyone. Actually joining TL, I had an image of everybody being like the kids on Xbox Live lol. Thanks god everyone here isn't like that. I'll try applying everything said here as soon as I can, and I'll try to sign up to ICCup as well, but I have to finish my holiday homework first lol.
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Although i'm not a very good player, I think everyone forgot some important things with dealing against sair/reaver.
1. You can try to end to game, or do a serious ammount of damage before the protoss starts teching (something like lings speed into mass lings, although it's considered a cheesey build..)
2. If it's a pure sair/reaver (meaning he barely has any ground forces) it means you can expand like hell as he transitions into his shuttles and reavers. (also it won't be easy for him to get a 3rd base , as long as it's not established you can always try to deny that)
3. Devourers are usefull. in late game.
4. Some pro games had their luck with Ensnaring the clump of sairs and the shuttle so it's easier for scourge to catch them and hydras can chase them off.
5. Burrow tech is useful, besides burrowing around lings to get sight range and know where that huge clump is moving to, and besides the fact you can burrow drones to dodge scarabs, you can burrow hydras to set a trap, and unburrow them right when the sairs are ontop of you.
Err it got longer then I was aiming for :p sorry. But I hope those general tips help. I myself don't deal too well with sair/reaver :/
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On September 28 2009 15:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds
and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting.
protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles
That'd be easy to counter. Build a small ground force to harass your not very defended expo with zealots and then when you are distracted reaver sair the shit out of you. Those expos, first will either be totally unsaturated or be guarded. By totally unsaturated I mean like 1 or 2 drones, because you will be investing so much money into those expos you won't have the larvae to choose between a force to defend against sair/reaver and harassing ground force AND saturate the expansions. I would slowly build up expansion while containing the Protoss because Sair/Reaver is harass, it can't take out a Zerg army. While containing him, build lurkers and the rest scourge obs and then defend your bases, to expos then keep expoing. The only reason Savior 0-3'd Bisu is because the build was not know back then and there was no way Savior could've know how to counter it. Savior is known to adapt VERY well in-game./
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On September 28 2009 15:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds
and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting.
protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles
I dunno if this has been said yet but what you meant. The counter to the bisu build is to outexpand and build a mass army of ground units to stop the harass but that is what the bisu build is trying to do. The bisu build isn't to destroy the opponent but to contain and prevent expansions from being made.
EDIT: The sair/reaver build is very mobile because you can destroy the expansion of the zerg and still have time to defend ur natural or undefended expansion. An option the zerg opponent can do is have a few groups of hydras burrow certain key points throughout the map the protoss player might run pass by.
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On September 29 2009 12:30 kineSiS- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2009 15:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds
and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting.
protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles
That'd be easy to counter. Build a small ground force to harass your not very defended expo with zealots and then when you are distracted reaver sair the shit out of you. Those expos, first will either be totally unsaturated or be guarded. By totally unsaturated I mean like 1 or 2 drones, because you will be investing so much money into those expos you won't have the larvae to choose between a force to defend against sair/reaver and harassing ground force AND saturate the expansions. I would slowly build up expansion while containing the Protoss because Sair/Reaver is harass, it can't take out a Zerg army. While containing him, build lurkers and the rest scourge obs and then defend your bases, to expos then keep expoing. The only reason Savior 0-3'd Bisu is because the build was not know back then and there was no way Savior could've know how to counter it. Savior is known to adapt VERY well in-game./
Although you're right in terms of how the zerg has to balance between expo and hydra army, in general mass expanding is pretty successful against sair/reaver. There's simply not enough of a protoss ground army to keep the zerg honest.
I would also add that mass scourges work too against sair/reaver if you have the gas(keep up the armor upgrade). Sure, technically speaking 6+ sairs with upgrades destroy scourges, but that's with scourge coming from one direction and with great micro. Even progamers don't always micro perfectly. And the protoss is pretty much fucked if you manage to snipe the shuttle(s).
On the subject of progamers using sair/reaver, Stork comes to mind first. Especially his game vs Gorush in the PL finals.
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On September 29 2009 11:48 Zvi wrote:
Although i'm not a very good player, I think everyone forgot some important things with dealing against sair/reaver.
1. You can try to end to game, or do a serious ammount of damage before the protoss starts teching (something like lings speed into mass lings, although it's considered a cheesey build..)
2. If it's a pure sair/reaver (meaning he barely has any ground forces) it means you can expand like hell as he transitions into his shuttles and reavers. (also it won't be easy for him to get a 3rd base , as long as it's not established you can always try to deny that)
3. Devourers are usefull. in late game.
4. Some pro games had their luck with Ensnaring the clump of sairs and the shuttle so it's easier for scourge to catch them and hydras can chase them off.
5. Burrow tech is useful, besides burrowing around lings to get sight range and know where that huge clump is moving to, and besides the fact you can burrow drones to dodge scarabs, you can burrow hydras to set a trap, and unburrow them right when the sairs are ontop of you.
Err it got longer then I was aiming for :p sorry. But I hope those general tips help. I myself don't deal too well with sair/reaver :/
some of these types are good, but not that one. The point of sair reaver is map control, if you try to expand, youre just gonna end up wasting money on expansions hes gonna take out. Even some pros have problems keeping track of their bases, expand to an amount where you can multi task and be able to decently defend all of them, leaving bases in the open are free food for sair reaver
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Uhm, you forgot to post a replay but anyway.....
sair reaver is a hard build to do since the Protoss would really struggle on the builds' early stages because he needs at least 3 mining gases to get those units up on the air. He would, more often than not, need to do really good damage on the first handful of sairs and 2 reavers in the shuttle. If you manage to deflect the first drop (which entails picking off the shuttle w/reavers) without losing much then I guess you're pretty ok.
Everything is not hopeless though if you can't pick of the shuttle. Just try to minimize your loses and go hydras + burrow I think. Limit his expansion. That is very important (well of course, hahaha). Anyway, sair reaver is a build that is disproportionate to the gas it needs. I don't use sair reaver but from the games I saw, sair reaver would entail 2 fully loaded shuttles w/reavers and a group or more of sairs. I think the Toss would be saturated with minerals and he'll spend them on cannons to defend expo's. Also, take note of island expansions since it would be really hard to take them out when sair reaver gets critical point.
I guess it's just a matter of limiting the protoss and riding an eco advantage to victory.
Uhm, why are people recommending massing expansions? Sair reaver can just fly around the map and rape the shit ouf of those expansions. Maybe you can start to expand when you pick off the first shuttle. Because by then, it would take time for him to get another shuttle + 2 reavers off 3 bases with only 2 gas. If you manage to take the initiative after picking off the first shuttle without major loses, then you would have a very good advantage. You would then be free to expand, mass units and deflect the next attempt on sair reaver, but most decent players would switch builds because getting your first shuttle killed without killing anything and still trying for another sair reaver attempt would be suicidal because you need to kill anything that moves on that second attempt - and this is really hard because this time, going sair reaver for the protoss WILL be about making a comeback/getting even rather than getting a lead (add the fact that by this time, eco from your expansion will be kicking and you will rape anything that moves with your scourge and hydras). If you do manage to deflect the first shuttle, the P would most likely switch to zeal/goon/temp but it would still take time and this will most likely happen with him having 2 bases and you with 3 bases. I think you can even push before storm kicks on or even before his units hit critical mass.
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regarding the discussion earlier in the thread, Stork's played Sair/Reaver successfully a lot of times, but mostly on older maps back in 06/07.
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With bisu sair reaver you mean a single shuttle that transitions into standard play? If so, standard 3 hatch sprire into 5 hat hydra can deal with that. If you meant pure sair reaver, then the most important thing is that you get drop. Burrow, devs, etc. Are only complementary tricks, and overexpanding will be punished by a good player.
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To be honest you cant fight air with air in a zvp. Dont bother getting air carapace.
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On September 29 2009 20:39 Cloud wrote:
To be honest you cant fight air with air in a zvp. Dont bother getting air carapace.
Yeah, the Best vs some Zerg on outsider will be a perfect example on this.
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Calgary25986 Posts
On September 28 2009 15:07 spoolinoveryou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2009 14:49 resonance wrote:
bisu is known for dt/sair, not reaver/sair actuallllly bisu is known for reaver/sair also. i remember watching this build where he went reaver/sair then transitions into sairs/carriers.
Bisu Reaver/Sair refers specifically to taking Blue Storm's 6/12 base with your first Reaver as your third base.
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Everyone should watch this VOD, its linked to the liquipedia entry for reaver/sair.
Bisu v Jaedong
pretty much perfect reaver/sair into carriers, amazing to watch Bisu pull this off
also english commentary
+ Show Spoiler +
perhaps my favorite game of all time
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On September 28 2009 15:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
bisu is NOT known for reaver/sair. Of course he can play it, but the only build called the "bisu build" was the one he used in his famous 3-0 against savior, which is fe into 6+ sairs and dt harass. Bisu has used sair/reaver, but very rarely compared to other builds
and as to countering sair/reaver: mass expoing combined with a shitload of upgraded hydras, preferrably with burrow and followed by queens for ensnare and parasiting.
protect each of your bases with a group of hydras and place a couple around his base to intercept, you can use your gas for scourge and try to kill off the shuttles
ugh, do u know that bisu uses reaver/sair even more than he use dt/sair? its called "bisu build" because he popularized it in you know which game... He wasn't even who invented it, he just popularized.
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On September 28 2009 14:55 scintilliaSD wrote:
Nal_rA is the original master of Reaver/Sair into Carrier PvZ, and he's the only person I've seen do it successfully (except Pj vs. sAviOr in WCG)
Bisu v. Jaedong on Andromeda. Fantastic game.
Edit: Link provided two posts above me. >.<
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On September 29 2009 20:39 Cloud wrote:
To be honest you cant fight air with air in a zvp. Dont bother getting air carapace.
Didn't Yarnc win against Much on Andromeda with the usage of a lot of air tech? I don't remember the details of the game besides that some of the big battles were fought almost entirely on the air.
edit: Or was it Luxury?
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all the wins against sair reaver that i've seen recently involved massive scourge fleets early on..is it worth it to get to air carapace so scourge live longer against sairs? or will you transition out too early for it to be worthwhile?
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Don't do carapace for scourge, just try to surround or intercept with scourge
I find plague can be really good against sair/reaver, does anyone else use this?
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Mass scourge dont come out of an early +1 air carapace, and they definitely arent the main game plan. They just are affordable because youre making a shit ton of 75/25 units (and not much else) so you most likely have a big load of unused gas. But if youre planning to go muta scourge vs sair reaver, forget it, youre gonna lose.
On the other hand if he wasnt so sair heavy (no reavers, basically standard play), an early +1 air carapace can work real wonders, ive made a fpvod on that style. But if he "answers" really soon (basically before he can scout your tech fully) with 2 stargates it really becomes uncomfortable for you and you have to switch to hydras despite having the +1 carapace. He can still get zeals besides the corsairs; you cant get any kind of shit at all besides the muta scourge, unless you just make it a single round of muta scourge and thats gonna lose the air control.
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sorry, but what is a fpvod?
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On September 30 2009 15:10 DeSu wrote:
sorry, but what is a fpvod?
first person vod
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On September 28 2009 14:55 scintilliaSD wrote:
Nal_rA is the original master of Reaver/Sair into Carrier PvZ, and he's the only person I've seen do it successfully (except Pj vs. sAviOr in WCG)
bisu vs jaedong on andro hello?
thats probably why hes getting bisu.
Also watch July vs Best game 3 on andro. he deals with sair reaver perfectly
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From what i have read, it seems sair/reaver build is powerful but expensive, it seems as though if you can manage to keep as many bases as them and protect yourself you will eventually pull through with economy. Its a very offensive build so if u can stop it, just make it less efective then they will loose in the end.
That's just my suggestion and im new so... gl and hf.
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The power of sair/reaver lies in the protoss being able to get critical mass of sairs. Once he reaches that point the protoss is almost impossible to stop. the best way to deal with it is to prevent it from even happening in the first place with scourge in the beginning of the game.
also, if the protoss is turtling just outexpand and overrun him through a war of attrition.
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On September 30 2009 18:06 SilverSkyLark wrote:first person vod
first person view on demand
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On November 08 2009 08:02 Ryuu314 wrote:
The power of sair/reaver lies in the protoss being able to get critical mass of sairs. Once he reaches that point the protoss is almost impossible to stop. the best way to deal with it is to prevent it from even happening in the first place with scourge in the beginning of the game.
also, if the protoss is turtling just outexpand and overrun him through a war of attrition.
the power of the sair/reaver lies in the mobility of this whole combination and the effectiveness of taking expos (hatches) out.
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The power of sair/reaver lies in the fact you got a speed shutle you can use for dt drop/storm drop or w/e. Heavy sair/reaver builds like ra did are not really used anymore unless on some specific maps.
Bisu/movie sair/reaver is a light sair reaver varaint into fast dt/temp for dt drop or storm drop. You only get like 2 reavers max and 1 in your shutle for initial harras and then also use shutle to harras with templar tech while massing zeals from 5 gates and so on.
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waittttt.
all that reaver harass i've been getting in TvP lately-- those are BISU'S REAVERS?!
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On November 08 2009 08:52 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2009 18:06 SilverSkyLark wrote:On September 30 2009 15:10 DeSu wrote:
sorry, but what is a fpvod? first person vod first person view on demand
I thought it was first person video on demand?
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if they're bisu's reavers and corsairs, then there is no counter.
vs. sair/reaver in general, mass expo, use hydras/scourge to defend your bases and try to snipe shuttles/keep the toss from keeping his 3rd base. Sair/reaver is very gas-intensive, and if you can keep the protoss on 2 bases then their sair/reaver will be greatly limited. They'll either have to skimp on reavers (the meat of the strategy) or make fewer sairs (easier to defend your bases). Also, you might want to consider researching burrow, as it's a good response if he gets reavers into one of your mining expos, and you can also hide small groups of hydras at your bases, and unburrow them to perhaps get a surprise shuttle/corsair kill.
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DeSu you wanna game soon? Im a pretty new terran and sounds like good practice partner
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On November 08 2009 12:02 Always wrote:
waittttt.
all that reaver harass i've been getting in TvP lately-- those are BISU'S REAVERS?!
wait, im unclear as to what you're talking about. first off, as ppl have said earlier, bisu is the dt/sair man. thats why hes called "the revolutionist". well, i guess just because hes BISU, he can do any build successfully, but apparently not sair-reaver.
ok back to what desu was originally saying.
1. mass hydras
2. scourge to guard against shuttles. the theory behind this is: at least one scourge will chase down and hit the shuttle. as the shuttle is unloading/waiting to load the reaver and such, a second scourge can come in an finish off the shuttle.
im sorry if im explaining this like you're a complete noob. no worries, man
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EPT
