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This is 2 threads merged in one. The 2 topics are completely irrelevant to the extent that they can easily be 2 threads, but I am just posting as one. I ask for only zerg users to answer the first topic because I think it would be silly for a non-zerg to think they know what they are talking about because I play zerg for fun as well @ C/C+, but I don't understand the timings like I would for my my main race (terran).
A small rant on the strategy forum:
I understand it is arrogant to say "If you are D+ and lower, please don't respond." However, nobody will deny that they would rather have higher skilled players commenting. Everyone here ( Or @ least I do) takes Ret and Idra's words when they posts in these forums as the veritable truth because they are @ the highest level among our community.
It's true, you do not need to be good @ sc to be good @ strategy, but like artosis has said, Starcraft has become increasingly mapped out. If you don't follow the map, most likely you will lose. Many strategy threads ask "Counter to 2hat muta, 1hat lurker counter, etc" and I see D+ netizens reply something to the extent, "turret up, make bunker, your set, etc." But what the D+ thread maker doesn't realize is to counter with the minimal amount necessary. Sure you can delay tech and build 4 turrets @ each expo and 2hat is countered. But this will throw your overall timing off. Optimally, would be to not delay your tech, and build minimal turrets.
This is why the average tl theorycrafter fails. He doesn't have the mechanics to continue micro and macro while defending with minimal turrets and dies. Thus, he can't comment on how that timing will affect his later push @ 9-11min because he hasn't experienced it vs a good zerg.
On a larger scale, this is why there is such a large skill gap between korea + foriegners. They know what corners they can cut, and which ones they can't. Thus that immediately tells them when they can punish the other player.
/end rant
Please don't start flaming. I am only C+. But I really think there is a monstrous gap between the consistent C+ player and the consistent C and under player. I have gone 40-0 up to c+ and slowly my win loss ratio becomes 50%.
/start thread
To begin, this topic is solely devoted to the variants of muta. My questions are devoted to zerg users. To be blunt, I have already read through many of the [h] tvz threads via search. I don't need more D+/C- terrans giving me reguritated advise.
I can think of 4 variants. (I treat overpool as 9pool and 12pool as 12hatch)
1) 9pool speedling -> 3hatch muta
2) 9pool -> 3hatch muta
3) 2hatch 12hatch/11pool/10gas muta
4) Standard 3hatch muta
For options 3 and 4, mutas respectively arrive @ 6:15 and 7:15. As of now, I am only concerned with options 1, 2, 3.
Q1: Relative to options 3, 4, when do the mutas occur for 1, 2 ?
Q2: For 3, what is the delay in mutas if you opt to get around 10-12 speedlings? Is it delay and economic loss or just economic loss?
Q3: These days, particularly destination, you see terrans going
depo,rax,CC,depo,rax. Their first rine comes extremely late. Their scouting scv is trying to make your lings follow it so they don't have to bunker up. When you see this what do you feel is optimal for you as the zerg? 1) mass up ling, 2) 1ling chases, the other 5 go pressure, 3) just make 2lings and macro
Q4: Often terran move out with 6rine2bat2medic after they have expo'ed. They do this to make you sunken up. At this point do you counter the main with lings or build up 1-2 additional sunk?
/end topic 1
The purpose of the valkyrie in Bio-mech:
It is too expensive to be treated as a sair. For this reason, you can't send it ovy hunting.
If you build it in mass, your ground troop will be significantly less. At equal skill, I would say the person massing valks is @ a disadvantage vs the zerg.
I Have not seen a single good foriegner use 2-3 valks effectively. The only example where it has been used effectively was on Medusa when some terran (fantasy?) used 2-3 valks effectively along with bio. However, this was an offensive.
For defense, I think it is much more cost effective to only use 1 valkyrie. It can shoot its missiles and the initial 6muta will fly retreat. However, having built the armory, it seems a waste to not build goliath. But then, this leads me to the thought - Why build valkyrie in the first place? Vs well microed muta, the damage is neglible. It is easily scourged sniped and it is an insane cost. Goliath are cheaper, and have higher upgraded range, plus the starport can be delayed since you don't need vessel as soon any more.
Conclusion: If going bio-mech - don't use valkyrie @ all. Go bio-goliath.
Question: Is my conclusion logical? Refutations? Alternate ideas?
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Isn't  Flash known for using Bio-Goliath a lot?
How do you plan on making this work though? Are you going to start off as if you were doing a standard 9 min push TvZ but then branch off when you start your factory and add an armoury + another factory? Doesn't this tech delay have an apparent flaw in the way that Bio-Goliath isn't as strong against the Zerg lurker followup as Bio + Tanks? It seems like you would be contained for far too long while Zerg is teching freely to Hive.
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I know you wanted Z players but i'm a T player and found this interesting!
Q1: Sadly there is no concrete answer to this. The zerg play is going to change(or should change at higher levels) dependent on how terran reacts to the 9 pool and how much damage is dealt with the 9 pool either speed or no speed. Theoretically, I think 9 pool and 9 pool speed should be refuted on 1v1 maps since it relies on catching the terran off guard. A 1 base terran should have a slight advantage against a 9 pool so long as it is scouted, due to the late expansion, the strong scv saturation of the terran, and the weak drone saturation of the zerg (since zerg will have limited larva for a period of time due to 1 hatch)
Q2: Should just be economic loss. No delay. The zerg will be pretty all in from there however since massing drones will be putting mutalisk reinforcement gaps during harass, allowing the terran to get ahead. really matters on micro though.
Q3: Just make 2-4 lings and macro. Good terrans really won't have any weaknesses in that beginning, and terran only needs to give up 100 minerals to ensure safety. However, if zerg goes 6 lings or 8 lings, that is 150 minerals that are spent at a time where they can do no real harass, and a loss in minerals for potential drones not created(3-4 drones not mining from the larva that could've been)
Q4: Depends on style! Safety would just to have 2 sunkens and those lings. aggressive would be to attack the main, but if it fails you might be in for some potential trouble at home. generally though, if you show the zerglings and show they have speed it will halt the push, and you can sometimes wait out morphing the sunkens and just having ur mutalisks timed out for defense on that small push.
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Depends on the map and the zerg.
The map is crucial in seeing if your terran base is easily defendable with turrets. HBR is a very hard map to defend mutalisks and could warrant goliaths as defense where as collosseum II is much easier and only requires turret placement. Since we're just talking about whether to use valk or mech, we'll speculate only on maps that have expansions where it might be hard to defend. HBR is a prime example.
If zerg is massing mutas solo, the obvious choice is to mass valk. goliaths are extremely immobile, therefore pushing out is a liability for the main and the marines(assuming large quantities of mutalisks) If you bring the goliaths with the marines, the main is a liability, but if you leave goliaths behind, the marines become significantly weaker. However, if you have valks massed, a large muta army can be negligible since valks can come back and defend while still maintaining an aggressive stance.
Your conclusion has warrant in some cases but i believe if you want to use bio, you shouldn't stay on goliaths. Really what I'm saying is, If the zerg is going muta and staying on it, valks are a better option and upgrading their attack is a must. however, if you feel they are not committed to the mutas, then just macro to vessel and you should stay fine. Goliaths don't provide a great anti mass muta due to the fact that they are too immobile.
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On September 02 2009 16:12 Grobyc wrote:Isn't Flash known for using Bio-Goliath a lot? How do you plan on making this work though? Are you going to start off as if you were doing a standard 9 min push TvZ but then branch off when you start your factory and add an armoury + another factory? Doesn't this tech delay have an apparent flaw in the way that Bio-Goliath isn't as strong against the Zerg lurker followup as Bio + Tanks? It seems like you would be contained for far too long while Zerg is teching freely to Hive.
No offense, but this is the sort of D+/C- nonsensical post with no backing that I was hoping to avoid.
I'm at a loss as to how to respond because I have no idea where you got the idea that in my "tech" i'm going to add a 2nd fact and pump pure gol.
I made my questions pretty clear in bold font. I don't really even understand what your 1st sentence is addressing.
Conclusion: If going bio-mech - don't use valkyrie @ all. Go bio-goliath.
Question: Is my conclusion logical? Refutations? Alternate ideas?
Evan you're a kawaii azn, but I've been searching your name in strategy forum and I'm really surprised you haven't been banned from it.
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On September 02 2009 16:24 Pr0terg wrote:
I know you wanted Z players but i'm a T player and found this interesting!
Q1: Sadly there is no concrete answer to this. The zerg play is going to change(or should change at higher levels) dependent on how terran reacts to the 9 pool and how much damage is dealt with the 9 pool either speed or no speed. Theoretically, I think 9 pool and 9 pool speed should be refuted on 1v1 maps since it relies on catching the terran off guard. A 1 base terran should have a slight advantage against a 9 pool so long as it is scouted, due to the late expansion, the strong scv saturation of the terran, and the weak drone saturation of the zerg (since zerg will have limited larva for a period of time due to 1 hatch)
Q2: Should just be economic loss. No delay. The zerg will be pretty all in from there however since massing drones will be putting mutalisk reinforcement gaps during harass, allowing the terran to get ahead. really matters on micro though.
Q3: Just make 2-4 lings and macro. Good terrans really won't have any weaknesses in that beginning, and terran only needs to give up 100 minerals to ensure safety. However, if zerg goes 6 lings or 8 lings, that is 150 minerals that are spent at a time where they can do no real harass, and a loss in minerals for potential drones not created(3-4 drones not mining from the larva that could've been)
Q4: Depends on style! Safety would just to have 2 sunkens and those lings. aggressive would be to attack the main, but if it fails you might be in for some potential trouble at home. generally though, if you show the zerglings and show they have speed it will halt the push, and you can sometimes wait out morphing the sunkens and just having ur mutalisks timed out for defense on that small push.
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Depends on the map and the zerg.
The map is crucial in seeing if your terran base is easily defendable with turrets. HBR is a very hard map to defend mutalisks and could warrant goliaths as defense where as collosseum II is much easier and only requires turret placement. Since we're just talking about whether to use valk or mech, we'll speculate only on maps that have expansions where it might be hard to defend. HBR is a prime example.
If zerg is massing mutas solo, the obvious choice is to mass valk. goliaths are extremely immobile, therefore pushing out is a liability for the main and the marines(assuming large quantities of mutalisks) If you bring the goliaths with the marines, the main is a liability, but if you leave goliaths behind, the marines become significantly weaker. However, if you have valks massed, a large muta army can be negligible since valks can come back and defend while still maintaining an aggressive stance.
Your conclusion has warrant in some cases but i believe if you want to use bio, you shouldn't stay on goliaths. Really what I'm saying is, If the zerg is going muta and staying on it, valks are a better option and upgrading their attack is a must. however, if you feel they are not committed to the mutas, then just macro to vessel and you should stay fine. Goliaths don't provide a great anti mass muta due to the fact that they are too immobile.
Pro you bring up some good points about valkyrie. But I disagree with massing valks. If they are massing muta, it's not necessary to push out and I will have plenty of vessels to deal with any sort of counter. 1 valk = 500 minerals/gas. To deal with 2-3 control groups of muta would take @ least 5-6 valks. That's 2500 minerals/gas which could be much better spent on vessel/mnm.
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personally I think all forms of "if a then b" questions are C- level questions, in a sense that they normally get a generic answer in return, dunno why you're asking them to begin with if you are already C+
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no i agree and it seems illogical sometimes, but when you are against korean muta micro, the gap between barracks and the vessel+upgrades seems unreal, and it's very hard to get to the vessels, for it to stay alive till the 25 mana gets the 75 and then be able to discharge the irradiate having it kill multiple units. The irradiate doesnt even guarantee a win, it just guarantees at least 1 kill. however, the valk will be able to deal repeated damage earlier than getting a valk, and you don't have to worry about it needed to get mana.
Think of it htis way also. If you're going against mass muta and you started on a marine med(2 rax), chances are you're against a 2 hatch muta. you're not going to have a factory up, and really you only can defend and try to play it off. Check out the game iris vs jaedong on chupung if you haven't already, and you'll see why that huge tech gap lacks dealing with mutalisks properly, and due to being only on 1 gas, each vessel is harder to get and keep than 1 valk. against 2 hatch, you really shouldn't be getting that 2nd gas, meaning the 1 gas you have has to be producing things that are very deliberate and going to be helping you as much as possible. btw, 1 valk is only 250 minerals and 125 gas :-P 500 minerals is insane!!!
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United States2186 Posts
The primary danger of the masses of strat forum contributors is that they obscure the people who really know what they're talking about. In reality most of the strat forum questions are easily answered and don't require that much debate/discussion, but it gets really dangerous when a newbie is forced to distinguish between a bunch of posts that may look similar but give conflicting information. However in actuality one person gave the best answer and a lot of other people are just posting garbage. The recent TvP vs 14 nexus thread is a great example of this problem. Players who don't have a firm grasp of the game should be asking questions to improve their own understanding, not flooding the thread with unqualified answers.
Frankly I think that referencing pro vods should be a necessity for these "d+ players" to give advice here and is a general good guideline overall.
Anyway....
On September 02 2009 15:19 kdog3683 wrote:
The purpose of the valkyrie in Bio-mech:
It is too expensive to be treated as a sair. For this reason, you can't send it ovy hunting.
If you build it in mass, your ground troop will be significantly less. At equal skill, I would say the person massing valks is @ a disadvantage vs the zerg.
I Have not seen a single good foriegner use 2-3 valks effectively. The only example where it has been used effectively was on Medusa when some terran (fantasy?) used 2-3 valks effectively along with bio. However, this was an offensive.
For defense, I think it is much more cost effective to only use 1 valkyrie. It can shoot its missiles and the initial 6muta will fly retreat. However, having built the armory, it seems a waste to not build goliath. But then, this leads me to the thought - Why build valkyrie in the first place? Vs well microed muta, the damage is neglible. It is easily scourged sniped and it is an insane cost. Goliath are cheaper, and have higher upgraded range, plus the starport can be delayed since you don't need vessel as soon any more.
Conclusion: If going bio-mech - don't use valkyrie @ all. Go bio-goliath.
Question: Is my conclusion logical? Refutations? Alternate ideas?
Conclusion is half logical, half not. The logical part is that basically any foreigner is going to be much worse at defending with Valkyries than they are with Goliaths. Valkyries require exquisite control and constant attention. Failure in either of these aspects results in a horrible disadvantage from the start. Thus it can be inferred that Valkyrie variations, while superb in the hands of pros, are simply not feasible for lower level players.
Are the Valkyrie variations probably not the best choice for most non-pros? Yes
Is the fake mech into Valkyrie concept probably the best and most versatile strategy around for high level players? Absolutely
The Valkyrie openings themselves are not flawed. The Vulture -> bio openings have so many different little variations that all achieve a slightly different purpose or aim for a different objective, and then they have to adapt a little to each of the possible Zerg openings. Covering all of them in sufficient detail would take many pages, and the Liquipedia article deserves that first anyway.
The non-Valkyrie openings, which are Flash's two m&m/goliath builds, have different objectives than oov's Valkyrie builds. The former are more geared at map control and constant pressure, and while this hasn't been used yet, they also allow the taking of a fast 3rd base.
On the other hand, the Valkyrie openings all revolve around game winning timing pushes. Either they end the game with that push, or they force the Zerg to kill their economy to keep themselves alive that they are too far behind anyway. Most attacks come pre-defiler, but the version Fantasy showed vs Jaedong on HBR in the semis actually came after swarm was ready and won with overwhelming force. Also, Valkyrie builds are also less vulnerable to faster-than-normal muta openings. Note that this weakness is a serious threat, costing Flash games vs Yarnc and Jaedong and nearly against July. It is yet to be seen if his new additions (more and earlier turrets while delaying m&m) to the build have fixed this problem. Valkyrie openings also make allin muta builds completely impossible and thus severely punish overly aggressive Zergs (contrast Lux v Fantasy on Chupung-Ryeong with Flash's losses).
A main difference, besides the reduction in defense cost and losses, is that Valkyrie openings let you produce tanks off of the single factory very early, while goliath ones require either two factories (not sure if this is viable, hasn't been seen much) or giving up the pre-defiler attack option. This really adds up, for one can have 5-7 tanks at their front door before defilers are out.
The Starport, at least in several variations, cannot be delayed because you rush a wraith then make cc. The wraith is such a severe threat (see iloveoov vs zero) that the Zerg must make a fast hydra den which is a real pain economically, and it serves as a great scout to warn of any shenanigans while still doing some damage. The difference between the fast port and faster cc builds is that the wraith cripples the Zerg if they fail to rush hydras, while if they do make several defensive hydras and you forego the wraith for a cc you end up well ahead.
As for making only 1 Valkyrie, you run into issues cheaply defending versus heavy muta builds. Self-explanatory, but how many you make depends on how many mutas they make. If they switch to lurkers fast, then obviously no need. If they keep producing mutas, keep producing Valkyries.
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I'm only a C terran and C- (though solid) zvt but I feel my strategic knowledge is about C+ level, atleast in the early and midgame. Because I usually sit around watching vods trying to decipher builds and watch most vods with an analytical mind I think I can contribute to this thread.
For question one:
You've forgotten one possible build. The fastest possible 6 muta rush is the Yarnc 13pool muta. If performed perfectly and terran doesn't put any more pressure on you than one vult it will hit him at 5:50. This build flat out counters any 1 fac FE build that dooes not do a switch back to bio right away after the first vulture or if he uses speed vult runby cleverly. This is the build that raped Flash silly on HBR.
I tampered around with this build alot when I was training on heartbreak and outsider with terran so that I could find out the timing of the mutas. What I found was that that build is all in most of the times. If terran doesn't pressure early you you will have quite an ok economy when the mutas pop but if you are forced to make more than one sunken and more lings than 4 then the entire timing becomes fucked and it's alot better to go 2 hatch muta. This build is a counter build to Flash's biomech, 1fac 1star builds and any other 1fac FE opening that doesn't include fast marines or a stalling vulture runby. But it relies heavily on perfect execution of every single drone step int he build and you have to have great muta micro to win easily. The economy of the build is basically like you were doing a 2 hatch muta with alot of lings to harass but instead of the lings and lingspeed you got alot faster mutas.
Build:
9 - Overlord
13 - Pool - not when you get 200 mins at 12 food but when your last drone pops (of the three you built after overlord) you take it and build the pool. While you are placing your buildings
12 - Gas - at the same time as the pool
- DO NOT save up larvae here. Use them all for drones (trust me you need it for the econ) -
13 - Hatch - with the 12th drone that comes out of the hatch
13 - Lair - when pool finishes (before lings)
13-14 - 2+2 lings
15 - Drone
16 - Overlord
- Keep mass droning -
Send 4 drones down to expo when it hatches and start spire.
17-19 - Creep colony + sunken
20 - Stop drone production and make 2 overlords
20 - 2nd gas (at about spire 75% done)
Now just wait for mutas and you should get 6 mutas into his base with 2 more coming right after at about 5:50 - 6 min sharp depending on how well you executed it. That is atleast 20 seconds before a normal 2 hatch muta and almost a full minute before 3 hatch muta.
Replay of the build: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=20043
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My 2 cents on thread 2:
The key difference between valkyre and goliath is that 1 valkyre gets stronger as the number of mutas increases, where goliaths strenght is the same. (because of splash damage)
By going goliath+bio you go for macro wars, while valkyres force a different gameflow.
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Q1: If you're C/C+, you can perform these build orders. Take the 15 minutes and try them out. Can't answer this atm.
Q2: no delay
Q3: 2 options: a) make 8 lings and kill him outright / delay bunker / runby bunker with 1 marine in it b) get 2-4 lings to chase the SCV, maybe have 1 scout.
Q4: I'll make about 12 speedlings just about always, so when he moved out I'll hide them, make like 4-6 more, and crush his entire army. However, if he's going for a second rax after the second depot, this question is useless because he won't have these units.
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flash always loses a fuckton of scv and has to make a crapload of turrets with his gol/bio strat and the timing push is not so strong aswell.
Opening bio valk gives you a starport were you can make a wraith to scout arround and see if its 2 hatch muta or lurker and force the construction of a hydra den.
Also instead of a wraith you can get a dropship asap and you can drop arround 3 vultures with speed at the moment or right before the first 6 muta's hatch allowing you to kill a decent ammout of drones and delay his initial harras more.
Indeed the first muta's that come out are harder to stop with bio valk and need good micro to do it but it will give you a better opening overall imo.
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On September 03 2009 01:21 4Servy wrote:
flash always loses a fuckton of scv and has to make a crapload of turrets with his gol/bio strat and the timing push is not so strong aswell.
Opening bio valk gives you a starport were you can make a wraith to scout arround and see if its 2 hatch muta or lurker and force the construction of a hydra den.
Also instead of a wraith you can get a dropship asap and you can drop arround 3 vultures with speed at the moment or right before the first 6 muta's hatch allowing you to kill a decent ammout of drones and delay his initial harras more.
Indeed the first muta's that come out are harder to stop with bio valk and need good micro to do it but it will give you a better opening overall imo.
Your strategical understanding is bad. 2 Hatch muta is the textbook counter to The fantasy build (also known as dropping vulture into oponents base). Anyone that has a brain and makes a few scourge when he sees the dropship (for the valk) can just marsh right into terran base and micro him to death. Take a look at JD vs Fantasy in the OSL finals of Batoo.
What's more you're freaking delusional if you have the impression that Flash allways loses a shitload of Scvs in his games. Take a good look at the 4-5 first games where he did his Biomech build and tell me if the scv deaths exceed 20 in total. I would think not. Getting a BO loss to Yarncs 13pool opening is not something you can do anything about after you chose your own. People like you with little to no understanding of the game often says that Flash should build his turrets earlier. With what money? If you actually tried to perform the builds you would understand that he couldn't have built them earlier even if he wanted to.
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On September 03 2009 01:36 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 01:21 4Servy wrote:
flash always loses a fuckton of scv and has to make a crapload of turrets with his gol/bio strat and the timing push is not so strong aswell.
Opening bio valk gives you a starport were you can make a wraith to scout arround and see if its 2 hatch muta or lurker and force the construction of a hydra den.
Also instead of a wraith you can get a dropship asap and you can drop arround 3 vultures with speed at the moment or right before the first 6 muta's hatch allowing you to kill a decent ammout of drones and delay his initial harras more.
Indeed the first muta's that come out are harder to stop with bio valk and need good micro to do it but it will give you a better opening overall imo. Your strategical understanding is bad. 2 Hatch muta is the textbook counter to The fantasy build (also known as dropping vulture into oponents base). Anyone that has a brain and makes a few scourge when he sees the dropship (for the valk) can just marsh right into terran base and micro him to death. Take a look at JD vs Fantasy in the OSL finals of Batoo. What's more you're freaking delusional if you have the impression that Flash allways loses a shitload of Scvs in his games. Take a good look at the 4-5 first games where he did his Biomech build and tell me if the scv deaths exceed 20 in total. I would think not. Getting a BO loss to Yarncs 13pool opening is not something you can do anything about after you chose your own. People like you with little to no understanding of the game often says that Flash should build his turrets earlier. With what money? If you actually tried to perform the builds you would understand that he couldn't have built them earlier even if he wanted to.
it feels like something just poured down your legs
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On September 03 2009 02:07 food wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 01:36 StarBrift wrote:On September 03 2009 01:21 4Servy wrote:
flash always loses a fuckton of scv and has to make a crapload of turrets with his gol/bio strat and the timing push is not so strong aswell.
Opening bio valk gives you a starport were you can make a wraith to scout arround and see if its 2 hatch muta or lurker and force the construction of a hydra den.
Also instead of a wraith you can get a dropship asap and you can drop arround 3 vultures with speed at the moment or right before the first 6 muta's hatch allowing you to kill a decent ammout of drones and delay his initial harras more.
Indeed the first muta's that come out are harder to stop with bio valk and need good micro to do it but it will give you a better opening overall imo. Your strategical understanding is bad. 2 Hatch muta is the textbook counter to The fantasy build (also known as dropping vulture into oponents base). Anyone that has a brain and makes a few scourge when he sees the dropship (for the valk) can just marsh right into terran base and micro him to death. Take a look at JD vs Fantasy in the OSL finals of Batoo. What's more you're freaking delusional if you have the impression that Flash allways loses a shitload of Scvs in his games. Take a good look at the 4-5 first games where he did his Biomech build and tell me if the scv deaths exceed 20 in total. I would think not. Getting a BO loss to Yarncs 13pool opening is not something you can do anything about after you chose your own. People like you with little to no understanding of the game often says that Flash should build his turrets earlier. With what money? If you actually tried to perform the builds you would understand that he couldn't have built them earlier even if he wanted to. it feels like something just poured down your legs
So you're saying you think it's totally fine that D+ players sit around and critisise the best players in the world strategically when they don't even have a basic understanding of build orders? And they sitll talk about how badly Flash or Bisu or Jaedong etc behaved in a game?
It pisses me the fuck off thats for sure. I'm fine with people hating on players if they atleast have a valid reason for doing so. But making up your own truths and using them to badmouth the top in the world is just pathethic.
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i think his profile says B, not sure how true that is. Maybe the fact that even flash loses plenty of scvs speaks for itself since a lower tier foreigner comes nowhere close in mechanics. Thats why he brought it up in the first place
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Not a bad thread, kdog3683.
Q1: Dunno, I can test it out for you if you want, but ideally, I don't think the timing will change - just Z will have less drones/units at that timing.
Q2: There should be no delay in mutas. You are forgoing drones (later second expo and slower mineral income) and sunkens (less static defense) to get speedlings.
Q3: It's personal preference, really. I usually build 8 lings, have one chase the scouting SCV and pressure with the other seven. If I'm lucky, I can runby or snipe the SCV building the CC. In the end, it doesn't matter too much because, assuming I'm going speedling route, I'm going to end up with 12 lings as speed finishes anyways. I'll end up having the same number of drones, but the timing of my 3rd will be slightly later than if I built 2 lings at the start plus drones, then 10 more later.
Q4: I always sunken minimally and attempt a backstab (I don't know if this is a good answer to your question, lol...)
The exact build I use if I scout 1 base biolioth (if my suicide overlord sees more than one rax with an armory) is 3hatch lair, drone until I have 19 on minerals, 6 on gas, put down two dens when lair is halfway done, and upgrade lurker aspect with one, hydra ups with the other, and mass hydra/lurk off of three hatcheries once I've hit the drone count. Even if he tries it off of two bases, my army composition will still be hydra/lurker, just off of 3 bases and 5 hatcheries. In that respect, I think valkyries are pretty useless, since I never bother to make a muta switch. However, valkyries + turrets are scary as hell if I do happen to be going mutas. They are more effective at nullifying harass due to mobility, and since they have splash, you don't need to wait for a critical mass (just get one or two) unlike with goliaths.
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On September 03 2009 01:36 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 01:21 4Servy wrote:
flash always loses a fuckton of scv and has to make a crapload of turrets with his gol/bio strat and the timing push is not so strong aswell.
Opening bio valk gives you a starport were you can make a wraith to scout arround and see if its 2 hatch muta or lurker and force the construction of a hydra den.
Also instead of a wraith you can get a dropship asap and you can drop arround 3 vultures with speed at the moment or right before the first 6 muta's hatch allowing you to kill a decent ammout of drones and delay his initial harras more.
Indeed the first muta's that come out are harder to stop with bio valk and need good micro to do it but it will give you a better opening overall imo. Your strategical understanding is bad. 2 Hatch muta is the textbook counter to The fantasy build (also known as dropping vulture into oponents base). Anyone that has a brain and makes a few scourge when he sees the dropship (for the valk) can just marsh right into terran base and micro him to death. Take a look at JD vs Fantasy in the OSL finals of Batoo. What's more you're freaking delusional if you have the impression that Flash allways loses a shitload of Scvs in his games. Take a good look at the 4-5 first games where he did his Biomech build and tell me if the scv deaths exceed 20 in total. I would think not. Getting a BO loss to Yarncs 13pool opening is not something you can do anything about after you chose your own. People like you with little to no understanding of the game often says that Flash should build his turrets earlier. With what money? If you actually tried to perform the builds you would understand that he couldn't have built them earlier even if he wanted to.
Standard bio mech is with a wraith into valks, instead I use dropship into valks sometimes, the initial valk timing remains almost the same. Both can deflect 2 hatch muta indeed when opening with a wraith its easyer cause you can slow the Z down more with overlord kills, ive done this build many times vs B zergs or better. You can have 6 marines, 1 or 2 goliaths (dont even usualy need goliaths and never more than 2) and 1 valk (2th half way done) + some towers vs the first initial 6 mutalisk (if he makes scourges he has less muta's so its even easyer).
Like I said with good micro you can easely fend it off imo. If his micro isnt alot better ofc but in that case goliaths wont help you either.
All ive seen with the flash build is that he gets completly reworked by S class zvt jeadong and yarnc (call it bo order loss w/e) in the groupstages even when he scouts the 13 pool tech and calm bashed him with 2 hatch lurkers, and then gets behind vs effort in the mid game on outsider. What wins him the game here was his superb sk terran control not his deflection of the 2 hatch imo.
Also bio valk is only weak in the first minuts muta's come out cause then you only have 1 ready, once the game progresses this build is far superieur in defeating a muta allin and it has your tech up faster cause of the starport tech already being up wich means if you scout no spire you can get sci bay instantly up and skip the valks.
its just a prefference of playstyle both work I prefer the valk opener vs 2 hatch over the goliath opener.
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On September 03 2009 02:45 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 01:36 StarBrift wrote:On September 03 2009 01:21 4Servy wrote:
flash always loses a fuckton of scv and has to make a crapload of turrets with his gol/bio strat and the timing push is not so strong aswell.
Opening bio valk gives you a starport were you can make a wraith to scout arround and see if its 2 hatch muta or lurker and force the construction of a hydra den.
Also instead of a wraith you can get a dropship asap and you can drop arround 3 vultures with speed at the moment or right before the first 6 muta's hatch allowing you to kill a decent ammout of drones and delay his initial harras more.
Indeed the first muta's that come out are harder to stop with bio valk and need good micro to do it but it will give you a better opening overall imo. Your strategical understanding is bad. 2 Hatch muta is the textbook counter to The fantasy build (also known as dropping vulture into oponents base). Anyone that has a brain and makes a few scourge when he sees the dropship (for the valk) can just marsh right into terran base and micro him to death. Take a look at JD vs Fantasy in the OSL finals of Batoo. What's more you're freaking delusional if you have the impression that Flash allways loses a shitload of Scvs in his games. Take a good look at the 4-5 first games where he did his Biomech build and tell me if the scv deaths exceed 20 in total. I would think not. Getting a BO loss to Yarncs 13pool opening is not something you can do anything about after you chose your own. People like you with little to no understanding of the game often says that Flash should build his turrets earlier. With what money? If you actually tried to perform the builds you would understand that he couldn't have built them earlier even if he wanted to. Standard bio mech is with a wraith into valks, instead I use dropship into valks sometimes, the initial valk timing remains almost the same. Both can deflect 2 hatch muta indeed when opening with a wraith its easyer cause you can slow the Z down more with overlord kills, ive done this build many times vs B zergs or better. You can have 6 marines, 1 or 2 goliaths (dont even usualy need goliaths and never more than 2) and 1 valk (2th half way done) + some towers vs the first initial 6 mutalisk (if he makes scourges he has less muta's so its even easyer). Like I said with good micro you can easely fend it off imo. If his micro isnt alot better ofc but in that case goliaths wont help you either. All ive seen with the flash build is that he gets completly reworked by S class zvt jeadong and yarnc (call it bo order loss w/e) in the groupstages even when he scouts the 13 pool tech and calm bashed him with 2 hatch lurkers, and then gets behind vs effort in the mid game on outsider. What wins him the game here was his superb sk terran control not his deflection of the 2 hatch imo. its just a prefference of playstyle both work I prefer the valk opener vs 2 hatch over the goliath opener.
That's exactly my point. The build itself is weak to extreme muta rush but if you can delay the muta rush with speed vults then sure it can work. It sounded to me like you were critisising Flashs execution fo the build rather than the build itself which was what pissed me off.
Indeed the fast valk build can work especially at foreigner level but once you get to the progamers they are so good at finding the weak spot of a base fast and their muta and scourge control is so good that a few marines without range, 2 gols without range and a valkyrie + wont be enough. A gutsy skilled zerg will take the valk hits while killing of the marines and then train the gols while scourge is chasing the valk. Reinforcement mutas usaually clean up if the zerg is a skilled micro player. But even then you see gaps in skill level. Players like Flash and fantasy will beat lower tier A teamers with it but players like Jaedong and Effort will still have the BO advantage. What I see alot on my level (dunno about B zergs) is that zerg often times sees a valkyrie and runs away (not having scourge because they didn't make the connection dropship into valk). When they come back to harass it's too late as terran has 10+ marines with stim and 2 valks.
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EPT
