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On August 02 2009 08:19 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan... Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title) I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
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9071 Posts
Casy would rape Jaedong any day, yo !
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You guys won't even have to worry about Jaedong being bonjwa. He'll drop a few random games in a row, and the discussion will be over, like last time.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On August 01 2009 20:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's hard to believe that there was a time when 3 protosses were ranked higher than Jaedong. My how the times have changed.
Yeah.. really.
I remember the golden age of protoss when protoss would win like 80% of their games.
I think the 3 hatch spire --> 5 hatch hydra build is really making it hard for p's now pvz.
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On August 02 2009 08:22 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 07:53 ShaperofDreams wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason No. Also you are completely disregarding my post. I'm not doing this, with ahole-surprise we were talking about JD/Bisu domination in the mirror match up, which is exactly relevant in the whole case. As good as your examples are, they are much more related to the state of the metagame of the time periods you are talking about. Being dominant in say tvz and or pvz (sorry) is not the same as kicking ass in zvz. If Savior had to destroy mostly zerg in his bonjwa path, he would've failed to do it, because he was not the best zvz-er even in his prime, Chojja was. and lol after Lost Saga MSL I promised myself never to get involved in fanboyish flame wars, but I guess its just too much fun, right MrHoon ? :D
Actually, you are, read my post again.
In your post you talked about how other Bonjwas were farther above their Rivals then Jaedong, when in truth he has the record of being the farthest above his rivals. The statistics were posted in this thread, before your post, actually.
Also how is he lucky that he has the best ZvZ? He was not born with it. Also, it has already been said to you that even though he crushed zerg rivals, he will also face the best players the other races have to offer. If their were less zerg, he would also have more time to practice against other races. (even though he is a favourite against any other player, of any race, in existence).
How could you possibly say that his road is easy because he is good?
You say Savior is the last bonjwa. What if Jaedong wins both starleagues?
Also it is more significant if he wins because he would be the only Bonjwa that did not drastically alter the metagame.
You act like being good at a matchup that you face is unfair, even though all of his other matchups are favourites against any player in the world. You act like other Bonjwas never had any "advantages".
edit: for spelling
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On August 02 2009 09:04 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 08:22 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:53 ShaperofDreams wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason No. Also you are completely disregarding my post. I'm not doing this, with ahole-surprise we were talking about JD/Bisu domination in the mirror match up, which is exactly relevant in the whole case. As good as your examples are, they are much more related to the state of the metagame of the time periods you are talking about. Being dominant in say tvz and or pvz (sorry) is not the same as kicking ass in zvz. If Savior had to destroy mostly zerg in his bonjwa path, he would've failed to do it, because he was not the best zvz-er even in his prime, Chojja was. and lol after Lost Saga MSL I promised myself never to get involved in fanboyish flame wars, but I guess its just too much fun, right MrHoon ? :D Actually, you are, read my post again. In your post you talked about how other Bonjwas were farther above their Rivals then Jaedong, when in truth he has the record of being the farthest above his rivals. The statistics were posted in this thread, before your post, actually. Also how is he lucky that he has the best ZvZ? He was not born with it. Also, it has already been said to you that even though he crushed zerg rivals, he will also face the best players the other races have to offer. If their were less zerg, he would also have more time to practice against other races. (even though he is a favourite against any other player, of any race, in existence). How could you possibly say that his road is easy because he is good? You say Savior is the last bonjwa. What if Jaedong wins both starleagues? Also it is more significant if he wins because he would be the only Bonjwa that did not drastically alter the metagame. You act like being good at a matchup that you face is unfair, even though all of his other matchups are favourites against any player in the world. You act like other Bonjwas never had any "advantages". edit: for spelling
but right now Jaedong doesnt really have any rivals. there are just other players that are also doing good.
also i think you are wrong saying he is favourite against any other player of any race in existence. he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague. and i think Effort and Yellow[Arnc] also have realistic chances to beat him, maybe even Canata, Flash, Fantasy and Jangbi if they have a perfect day.
well i think it is a bit lucky his best mu is zvz, as the momentum is for zerg at the moment and he will hardly face other races. of course he practised months if not years very hard for his zvz, but he couldnt know that it would be the age of zerg today
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Jangbi? Yellow[Arnc?]
r u for rela?
Yes some players have a "realistic chance" Which directly translates into "Jaedong is the favourite".
edit: Also right now I think Jaedong is a clear favourite against Flash.
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i know it was bo1, but Yellow[Arnc] beat him in OSL and in my eyes Jangbi is a player who can beat everyone on a good day as he went into MSL final and for example beat Calm in Proleague
edit: yes i know Flash isnt the old one. i just put him in because he was the best terran untill some weeks before and i think no one should underestimate him.
but in the end sports/games can never be predicted 100% before
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On August 02 2009 08:49 mog87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 08:19 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan... Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title) I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face. Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's. And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun.
First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues.
Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny.
Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush.
There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues.
Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is.
And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
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You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite. Not to mention that he has, and it's pointless to judge a potential Bo5, for the most part, based on previous results. It's better to judge by current form.
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It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage) and JD wins both leagues without facing him. That's going to create an argument storm on TL.
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On August 02 2009 08:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote:
sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can.
Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
I agree with everything you say there, even though I'll be honest enough to say that I am not able to judge whether JD is/will be bonjwa because I simply haven't been following starcraft during the bonjwa eras and haven't experienced what it's like.
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On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite.
since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz).
talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
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On August 02 2009 09:27 darktreb wrote:
It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage)
Dude.. the guy has won three of em... you make it sound like he's a constant msl failure
On August 02 2009 09:31 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite. since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz). talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
uhmm... no
Jaedong won their last bo5.
And their last proleague match doesn't say too much cuz of the stupid spire cancellation.
And there's no Zerg that Jaedong isn't favourite over.
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I am curious who here thinks that Jaedongs 5 hatch against protoss drastically altered the metagame?
In comparison to Saviors/Nada's/Iloveoov's/Boxer's innovations?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 02 2009 05:41 Bifur wrote:You can compare  Jaedong to  BoxeR: BoxeR's career on TV so far: 253-207 Jaedong's career on TV so far: 256-116
That's a terrible comparison, given how badly Boxer's win-rate has fallen off since he was last considered dominant.
On August 02 2009 09:34 ShaperofDreams wrote:
I am curious who here thinks that Jaedongs 5 hatch against protoss drastically altered the metagame?
In comparison to Saviors/Nada's/Iloveoov's/Boxer's innovations?
Not even close.
Jaedong's 5-hatch altered how one matchup was played. The innovations of the past Bonjwas altered how the ENTIRE GAME was played.
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On August 02 2009 09:35 TheYango wrote:That's a terrible comparison, given how badly Boxer's win-rate has fallen off since he was last considered dominant.
I think it's a very interesting comparison, showing how ridiculously many more games are played nowadays compared to the old days
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dont get me wrong guys, i am following sc since Ever 2007 OSL when Jaedong won vs Stork but while thinking about Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior i FEEL that they are Bonjwa. when thinking about Jaedong i just feel a player who is like the others, just practising more thus being better.
this and my protoss heart tell me that Bisu is nearer to be Bonjwa, although he never won OSL and is out of this OSL after loosing vs "bad" players i think he is more than just a normal player who is better than the others.
i have the same feeling for Canata, but probably he wont be good enough to be considered being Bonjwa.
edit:
On August 02 2009 09:32 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 09:27 darktreb wrote:
It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage) Dude.. the guy has won three of em... you make it sound like he's a constant msl failure Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 09:31 imperator-xy wrote:On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote:
You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite. since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz). talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort uhmm... no Jaedong won their last bo5. And their last proleague match doesn't say too much cuz of the stupid spire cancellation. And there's no Zerg that Jaedong isn't favourite over.
you got me wrong, i know that Jaedong won 3:2 vs Bisu
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Whatever, it's not possible to argue against an opinion. You can think that Effort and Yarnc are favored over JD in a Bo5. And so is Bisu.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 02 2009 09:37 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 09:35 TheYango wrote:On August 02 2009 05:41 Bifur wrote:You can compare Jaedong to BoxeR: BoxeR's career on TV so far: 253-207 Jaedong's career on TV so far: 256-116 That's a terrible comparison, given how badly Boxer's win-rate has fallen off since he was last considered dominant. I think it's a very interesting comparison, showing how ridiculously many more games are played nowadays compared to the old days
Yes, but I'm not sure that was the intent of the comparison, though I apologize if I was mistaken.
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