On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
Yeah, but also bear in mind that there has been more than one change on how the points are calculated over the years. Still, that's very impressive
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
haha yeah, what a chump, only as dominant as Bonjwas? Psssh, guys not even the most dominant player to ever live!
sAviOr in his KeSPA prime was 400 points higher than NaDa and 1,000 points higher than the #3 (Iris). I used to think how fucking insane that was to have such a large gap between you and your progaming peers.
But Jaedong? To be 700 points higher than Bisu and nearly 1,200 higher than fucking Flash?? To break 3,000 Kespa for the first time ever with no signs of slowing?
Forget the "b-word" - thats up to the Koreans - Lets just give some credit to a pretty goddamn monumental acheivment and a great SC player.
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
Pft you're just sad that your predicted Jaedong-slump still hasn't happened yet
hehe jk, you're right of course, but could someone tell me when the latest change of kespa scoring system was made?
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
Thanks for clarification Plexa I didn't know this (out of scene once a while). I doubted it when seeing it on Fomos article as well. 4 bonjwas should have higher record than this during their peak.
The short history of the absolute records in KeSPA ranking: Boxer — on 2002 Dec 2398 Points; Jaedong — on 2008 Mar 2400.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 Apr 2664 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 May 2708.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 Jun 2720.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 Aug 3224.5 Points!
On August 01 2009 20:53 nonduc wrote: The short history of the absolute records in KeSPA ranking: Boxer — on 2002 Dec 2398 Points; Jaedong — on 2008 Mar 2400.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 Apr 2664 Points; Jaedong — on 2002 May 2708.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2002 Jun 2720.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2002 Aug 3224.5 Points!
On August 01 2009 20:55 7mk wrote: :S read plexa's post...
See the Boxers data please — 2398 on December 2002.
well your year numbers were generally confusing cause they all, even JD's had 2002 in it so are you implying that is after the latest kespa ranking change? Cause thats the question I asked earlier, I still have no clue, but would've thought it was quite a bit later then that since people like plexa are saying that bonjwas like savior would have gotten more points than JD
If thats not what you meant by telling me to look that it's december 2002 I have no clue what you meant
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
Sounds a lot like you're trying to take away from JD's achievement here.
Compare overall sAviOr’s Proleague record (96: 51 W 45 L (53.1%)) and Jaedong’s record (169: 120 W 49 L (71%)). And compare sAviOr’s Proleague record on 2006 and Jaedong’s Proleague record on 2008-09…
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
On August 01 2009 21:00 Dice84 wrote: 01. Jaedong3224.5
H.. O.. L.. Y.. FUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!
Sorry, just had to express my feeling one more time.
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
Yeah, seeing how we're witnessing the Swarm Season, this is very possible. Seven Tigers? More like the Seven Catastrophes. Or Seven Wonders of the Zerg. Lol.
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
Compare overall sAviOr’s Proleague record (96: 51 W 45 L (53.1%)) and Jaedong’s record (169: 120 W 49 L (71%)). And compare sAviOr’s Proleague record on 2006 and Jaedong’s Proleague record on 2008-09…
that really doesn't answer my question in the least
On August 01 2009 21:29 errol1001 wrote: 6 zerg in the top 12, and a fair dose of zerg through the rest of the top 30.
If I remember right, when the 6 dragons were in the top 10, they were the only game in town. 6 in top 10, and then almost none in 10-50..
Yep, Dragons were the only protosses in the top 30 at the very least. I think Backho might've been an exception at one point. He tends to be, overall, the seventh best performing Toss.
On August 01 2009 21:29 errol1001 wrote: 6 zerg in the top 12, and a fair dose of zerg through the rest of the top 30.
If I remember right, when the 6 dragons were in the top 10, they were the only game in town. 6 in top 10, and then almost none in 10-50..
Yep, Dragons were the only protosses in the top 30 at the very least. I think Backho might've been an exception at one point. He tends to be, overall, the seventh best performing Toss.
but soon violet will be better than any other protoss
well he was in fact better than any other protoss other than bisu and maybe kal already in this last season, but only time will tell if he stays strong/keeps on improving
Compare overall sAviOr’s Proleague record (96: 51 W 45 L (53.1%)) and Jaedong’s record (169: 120 W 49 L (71%)). And compare sAviOr’s Proleague record on 2006 and Jaedong’s Proleague record on 2008-09…
that really doesn't answer my question in the least
Ohhh… It’s very simple to understand one thing — sAviOr has just 15 wins in Proleague on 2006 and Jaedong has 62 wins in SPL 2008-09.
People are talking about how the point system changed, but the real change was the number of games they play. Other players in their prime played 50 games a year, while Jaedong has 50 proleague wins in 6 months.
He's saying Jaedong's quick rising through the ranks is because he does similarly as well as Savior in leagues, a little worse overall, but on top of that, completely stomped Savior in proleague performances, so it's safe to say Jaedong's points aren't a fluke.
It's the same reason Bisu has such high points -- he's a beast in proleague as well as a usual favorite in leagues.
Even with a revamp of the system, if we were doing it by the old ways then the Bonjwas didn't have NEAR as many games to play and wouldn't have as many points, but the disparity between them and others is the same because they were as or more dominant than Jaedong in their respective medium.
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
On August 01 2009 22:14 NeverGG wrote: 17. (T)Canata 1056.8 ▲19
YES! Fanclub captain is proud of her guy (even if he's not doing too well right now.)
Regardless of his results in the ro8, he's been playing much better starcraft than anytime in his career. Hopefully he'll still do so in the next season.
Jaedong has been leading the pack for some time now, partly because Bisu and Flash's most recent good results have been in GOM and partly because he's been playing impecable in proleague and individual leagues. Hopefully he'll start winning in a more elegant style instead of brutally overpowering the other guy's mechanics.
I never thought I would entertain this but Jaedong actually has a chance to be bonjwa seeing as he will be facing a lot of fantasy / Bisu (the #2 and #3 players in the world) in the next few weeks.
On August 01 2009 22:33 MoRe_mInErAls wrote: I never thought I would entertain this but Jaedong actually has a chance to be bonjwa seeing as he will be facing a lot of fantasy / Bisu (the #2 and #3 players in the world) in the next few weeks.
I've been following and reading alot of Korean e-sports forums / boards and about half the ppl there are already considering or calling Jaedong as a bonjwa. 임이최마동 - Jaedong as the 5th Bonjwa. They also point out that if JD does win both Starleagues, he's truly the best SC player ever to exist.
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
On August 01 2009 21:29 errol1001 wrote: 6 zerg in the top 12, and a fair dose of zerg through the rest of the top 30.
If I remember right, when the 6 dragons were in the top 10, they were the only game in town. 6 in top 10, and then almost none in 10-50..
Yep, Dragons were the only protosses in the top 30 at the very least. I think Backho might've been an exception at one point. He tends to be, overall, the seventh best performing Toss.
On August 01 2009 23:01 justiceknight wrote: luxury slumped into hell after winning a msl title,he doesnt deserve to be the 2nd best zerg,eff0rt now has taken over his place
i dont consider Much be 7th dragon,its either horang2 or movie.Both are very good toss nowadays
They're talking about the 6 dragon era though and back then much was undoubtedly the next best protoss player.
On August 01 2009 22:33 MoRe_mInErAls wrote: I never thought I would entertain this but Jaedong actually has a chance to be bonjwa seeing as he will be facing a lot of fantasy / Bisu (the #2 and #3 players in the world) in the next few weeks.
I've been following and reading alot of Korean e-sports forums / boards and about half the ppl there are already considering or calling Jaedong as a bonjwa. 임이최마당 - Jaedong as the 5th Bonjwa. They also point out that if JD does win both Starleagues, he's truly the best SC player ever to exist.
Yeah we have to wait what koreans are gonna decide anyway.
~50% of koreans are calling him 5th bonjwa? Well im sure if he wins at least Something this season it'll be over 50%!
Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long.
On August 02 2009 00:15 disciple wrote: Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long.
Well.. Heartbreak Ridge is TvZ favored. Byzantium 3 is TvZ favored. Destination is TvZ favored. Shades of Twilight is TvZ favored... I doubt that really is the problem. And it wouldn't make sense to make a completely impossible TvZ map (No gas natural, very difficult to defend third base that has the second gas), that wouldn't really be fair since even if JD won less, no other Zergs could do anything.
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
Pft you're just sad that your predicted Jaedong-slump still hasn't happened yet
hehe jk, you're right of course, but could someone tell me when the latest change of kespa scoring system was made?
The first link is the month before the change, and the 2nd is the month after the change. The things that got changed were; - Change from a 12 month system to a 3-month system (+decay for things outside of 3 months) - OSL and MSL weighted equally independent of prizemoney (used to be that more $$ = more kespa points) - Proleague counted in the ranking (used to just be OSL/MSL)
With those changes in mind its not hard to imagine why they shot up in value since all these unvalued proleague games suddenly gained them points. Also, after that season proleague moved into a 2 games a team per week style (used to be one game a week per team). Which further inflated their scores since more games were being played.
On August 01 2009 20:53 nonduc wrote: The short history of the absolute records in KeSPA ranking: Boxer — on 2002 Dec 2398 Points; Jaedong — on 2008 Mar 2400.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 Apr 2664 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 May 2708.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 Jun 2720.3 Points; Jaedong — on 2009 Aug 3224.5 Points!
Basically, that translates roughly to boxer having 5000 points today.
The first link is the month before the change, and the 2nd is the month after the change.
On August 02 2009 00:32 Plexa wrote: Basically, that translates roughly to boxer having 5000 points today.
I hope the two links weren't suppose to suggest that the changes significantly increased savior's points and therefore boxer's point should be doubled too. Because if you look at everyone other than Savior, their points didn't change much at all, which meant Savior probably won a title that month - someone can check that.
I guess what matters is how many points the person with the second-highest Kespa ranking have in comparsion to Boxer's. Then again, it doesn't really matter. This just shows us that Jaedong is pretty sick, though. ^_^ I wonder what'll happen if Jaedong wins both the MSL and the OSL.
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
Agree with your comparisons up to the point it's known when the changes in points were made.
But, were ever in history such differences in top 3? My point is, if this system gives more points, why susch difference?
He has (to better comparate with another eras) 1.28x what Bisu has, and 1.56x what Flash has.
On August 01 2009 21:09 EvoChamber wrote: If this keeps up there's soon going to be a Zerg equivalent to the Six Dragons...like the Seven Tigers or something:
i believe if this season wasnt that bad for protoss Bisu would have like 200 or 300 points less than Jaedong, or maybe even more.
hoping for a Bisu vs Jaedong MSL final. if Jaedong wins MSL vs Bisu as well as OSL, i think we could nearly call him Bonjwa. but up to now, he still has to prove that he is better than Bisu, the guy who has a 10% better winning rate in proleague than Jaedong and the guy who has as many starleague titles as Jaedong.
On August 02 2009 00:44 Shikyo wrote: I guess what matters is how many points the person with the second-highest Kespa ranking have in comparsion to Boxer's. Then again, it doesn't really matter. This just shows us that Jaedong is pretty sick, though. ^_^ I wonder what'll happen if Jaedong wins both the MSL and the OSL.
exactly
assuming TLPD is right, Yellow had 1871 compared to boxer's 2398, or percentage wise, boxer is 28.17% higher. Where as Jaedong is 28.45% higher than Bisu. So they are roughly the same. Savior was 'only' 26.77% higher than Nada
The Six Dragons is still a reasonable thing to talk about, seeing how they are the only Protoss in the top30. I really hope at least Bisu can continue doing well.
As for the Jaedong Bonjwa issue, I think he's got a real shot at this season. We'll see what happens. It seems to me that he's not dominating less or in fewer games than the Bonjwas, it's just over a shorter period of time, which decreases his aura of Bonjwaness.
How is boxer points 2500 equal to 5000 if they made it harder Feb 2003 and then slightly made it easier again?
His points from his first OSL dropped off that's why Atleast that's what I presume happened... There may have been another change which I am not aware of
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
Agree with your comparisons up to the point it's known when the changes in points were made.
But, were ever in history such differences in top 3? My point is, if this system gives more points, why susch difference?
He has (to better comparate with another eras) 1.28x what Bisu has, and 1.56x what Flash has.
How is boxer points 2500 equal to 5000 if they made it harder Feb 2003 and then slightly made it easier again?
His points from his first OSL dropped off that's why Atleast that's what I presume happened... There may have been another change which I am not aware of
Well everyones points got dropped a lot, so there must have been ranking change that period.
There was last month of 3rd ShinHan Bank OSL on Feb 2007 and sAviOr had 9 (!) wins from Ro16 to the Final. That’s why he received more KeSPA Points than usual.
EDIT: Also sAviOr has 3 wins in Semis of GOMTV MBCGame Starcraft League Season 1 (07-02-15)…
On August 01 2009 20:23 Atrioc wrote: Forget the "b-word" - thats up to the Koreans - Lets just give some credit to a pretty goddamn monumental acheivment and a great SC player.
How is boxer points 2500 equal to 5000 if they made it harder Feb 2003 and then slightly made it easier again?
His points from his first OSL dropped off that's why Atleast that's what I presume happened... There may have been another change which I am not aware of
Well everyones points got dropped a lot, so there must have been ranking change that period.
Or else OSL and MSL was way overrated than today.
The ranking changed from being an all time ranking to a 12 months ranking (which also shows in all the previous months, there are ONLY point gains)
On August 01 2009 20:16 Emlary wrote: One more thing, Jaedong is the first progamer ever to break 3,000 points since KeSPA rankings was established in November 2001.
That's such a misleading statement The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
Agree with your comparisons up to the point it's known when the changes in points were made.
But, were ever in history such differences in top 3? My point is, if this system gives more points, why susch difference?
He has (to better comparate with another eras) 1.28x what Bisu has, and 1.56x what Flash has.
And that is simply complete domination.
Expand the quote
I got the thing about high points and so..
The thing is that Jaedong is 28% higher than Bisu and 56% higher than Flash. And that's amazing, for any point system you want to use.
On August 02 2009 00:15 disciple wrote: Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long.
Well.. Heartbreak Ridge is TvZ favored. Byzantium 3 is TvZ favored. Destination is TvZ favored. Shades of Twilight is TvZ favored... I doubt that really is the problem. And it wouldn't make sense to make a completely impossible TvZ map (No gas natural, very difficult to defend third base that has the second gas), that wouldn't really be fair since even if JD won less, no other Zergs could do anything.
What I was trying to say is that if Jaedong is to win everything this season it will be a result of long chain of events. Of course the main reason will be his incredible performance this season (approx 80% win rate in all 3 MU), but some other stuff to mention is that protoss suck badly, not even that, but JangBi was retarded enough to speed up the downfall process by trying to gang on Bisu. Flash sucks heavily in TvZ, and his only real rivals this season (no, EffOrt isnt one) are Bisu and fantasy, who killed each other in the MSL.
Given the fact that Jaedong is not a sole dominating force in the scene (hello KTY) you have to admit it wont get any easier for JD to achieve all his hall of fame goals such as bonjwa status, golden mouse etc. If you want to win it all you have to play a lot of games ,right... Bisu was in the same situation a while back, but he was just out of his slump and no one considered his rising a bonjwa run till the point where he won 2 SLs back to back. Bisu had to face Stork in the OSL as well, and the gap between these two is considerably smaller in comparison with Jaedong and the next top zerg, which I dont even know who he is.
Personally I dont want it to happen for subjective reasons but I'm sure Jaedong will win all titles this season, he has everything on his side.
On August 02 2009 01:07 EpiK wrote: The top three spots will stay this way for a while. I'm kind of surprised that yellow[arnc] is still in the top 10 and that effort is so low..
and who the hell is type-b?! 22 spots??
Why would YellOw[ArnC] be out of the top 10? He just advanced to the OSL semis and will get to the finals if he manages to beat type-b..
Meanwhile EffOrt is out of every individual league.
How is boxer points 2500 equal to 5000 if they made it harder Feb 2003 and then slightly made it easier again?
His points from his first OSL dropped off that's why Atleast that's what I presume happened... There may have been another change which I am not aware of
Well everyones points got dropped a lot, so there must have been ranking change that period.
Or else OSL and MSL was way overrated than today.
The ranking changed from being an all time ranking to a 12 months ranking (which also shows in all the previous months, there are ONLY point gains)
On August 02 2009 00:15 disciple wrote: Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long.
Well.. Heartbreak Ridge is TvZ favored. Byzantium 3 is TvZ favored. Destination is TvZ favored. Shades of Twilight is TvZ favored... I doubt that really is the problem. And it wouldn't make sense to make a completely impossible TvZ map (No gas natural, very difficult to defend third base that has the second gas), that wouldn't really be fair since even if JD won less, no other Zergs could do anything.
What I was trying to say is that if Jaedong is to win everything this season it will be a result of long chain of events. Of course the main reason will be his incredible performance this season (approx 80% win rate in all 3 MU), but some other stuff to mention is that protoss suck badly, not even that, but JangBi was retarded enough to speed up the downfall process by trying to gang on Bisu. Flash sucks heavily in TvZ, and his only real rivals this season (no, EffOrt isnt one) are Bisu and fantasy, who killed each other in the MSL.
Given the fact that Jaedong is not a sole dominating force in the scene (hello KTY) you have to admit it wont get any easier for JD to achieve all his hall of fame goals such as bonjwa status, golden mouse etc. If you want to win it all you have to play a lot of games ,right... Bisu was in the same situation a while back, but he was just out of his slump and no one considered his rising a bonjwa run till the point where he won 2 SLs back to back. Bisu had to face Stork in the OSL as well, and the gap between these two is considerably smaller in comparison with Jaedong and the next top zerg, which I dont even know who he is.
Personally I dont want it to happen for subjective reasons but I'm sure Jaedong will win all titles this season, he has everything on his side.
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about; are you saying that the one of the reasons that Jaedong is winning everything this season is because everyone else...sucks? Your "Flash sucks heavily in TvZ" seems to be implying as such. As for "only real rivals": Bisu and Fantasy? Well, so? When you are at the very peak of the game, how many real rivals do you expect to have? Bisu's only real rival was Stork back when he was at his peak; one can argue perhaps Flash as well.
I'm also not particularly sure why you are bringing up Bisu's previous foray into "bonjwa-ness"; what merits does that comparison have?
This reminds me of that thread about a year ago when we all though Flash would win everything in every league. Flash then miraculously lost in all if them.
If Jaedong can win both star-leagues that's great, fantastic, amazing even. But let's wait and see if Jaedong can actually do it. It's by no means over yet with Fantasy looking as deadly as ever and Calm truly stepping up his game lately.
meh i hate to say it because i think it's a retarded topic but... if Jaedong were to win an OSL/MSL this season and Oz wins Proleague and that Kespa differential....... it's hard to not say he's actually not becomming bonjwa-like....
Did we really need an arbitrary ranking system (made by Kespa no less) to tell us that Jaedong, the winner of the previous OSL and a semifinalist in both current Starleagues and co-winner of most games in Proleague is absolutely amazing right now? Nothing annoys me more than people catering stats, especially an arbitrary ranking system, to support their rguments.
Bonjwa is decided by watching players, not points. If JD beats Fantasy and then wins OSL (a near certainty he wins a ZvZ final) and also beats Bisu in the MSL finals (or some other player, but preferably Bisu), it will be very, very hard not to be overwhelmed by his dominance and start LEGITIMATELY using the most overused word on TL.
Certainly, if he wins both leagues, he is indisputably the greatest Zerg of all time.
On August 02 2009 04:09 darktreb wrote: Certainly, if he wins both leagues, he is indisputably the greatest Zerg of all time.
Was that ever in dispute? Jaedong firmly has the hold on greatest absolute play skill. The question was never "is Jaedong good enough?", but "is Jaedong dominant enough?".
I am happy though of Canata's recent performance and his 19 rank upgrade!!! Congrats Canata!!!
But as for Jaedong over 3000 points.... wow.... but still, if this was BoxeR's days into today's point system, BoxeR would easily have over 3000! ^_^
And yes, it seems if JD wins both OSL and MSL this season plus OZ wins Proleague, we might actually see possibly over 4000 or 5000!?!?!?!? But.... that won't happen.... F-a-n-t-a-s-y!
On August 02 2009 04:14 QuickStriker wrote: I am happy though of Canata's recent performance and his 19 rank upgrade!!! Congrats Canata!!!
But as for Jaedong over 3000 points.... wow.... but still, if this was BoxeR's days into today's point system, BoxeR would easily have over 3000! ^_^
And yes, it seems if JD wins both OSL and MSL this season plus OZ wins Proleague, we might actually see possibly over 4000 or 5000!?!?!?!? But.... that won't happen.... F-a-n-t-a-s-y!
Fantasy sucks more balls than your mom.
Just kidding, Lol, I'm just THE BIGGEST JD FAN BOY EVAR! (Stupid fantasy...)
On August 02 2009 00:15 disciple wrote: Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long.
Well.. Heartbreak Ridge is TvZ favored. Byzantium 3 is TvZ favored. Destination is TvZ favored. Shades of Twilight is TvZ favored... I doubt that really is the problem. And it wouldn't make sense to make a completely impossible TvZ map (No gas natural, very difficult to defend third base that has the second gas), that wouldn't really be fair since even if JD won less, no other Zergs could do anything.
What I was trying to say is that if Jaedong is to win everything this season it will be a result of long chain of events. Of course the main reason will be his incredible performance this season (approx 80% win rate in all 3 MU), but some other stuff to mention is that protoss suck badly, not even that, but JangBi was retarded enough to speed up the downfall process by trying to gang on Bisu. Flash sucks heavily in TvZ, and his only real rivals this season (no, EffOrt isnt one) are Bisu and fantasy, who killed each other in the MSL.
Given the fact that Jaedong is not a sole dominating force in the scene (hello KTY) you have to admit it wont get any easier for JD to achieve all his hall of fame goals such as bonjwa status, golden mouse etc. If you want to win it all you have to play a lot of games ,right... Bisu was in the same situation a while back, but he was just out of his slump and no one considered his rising a bonjwa run till the point where he won 2 SLs back to back. Bisu had to face Stork in the OSL as well, and the gap between these two is considerably smaller in comparison with Jaedong and the next top zerg, which I dont even know who he is.
Personally I dont want it to happen for subjective reasons but I'm sure Jaedong will win all titles this season, he has everything on his side.
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about; are you saying that the one of the reasons that Jaedong is winning everything this season is because everyone else...sucks? Your "Flash sucks heavily in TvZ" seems to be implying as such. As for "only real rivals": Bisu and Fantasy? Well, so? When you are at the very peak of the game, how many real rivals do you expect to have? Bisu's only real rival was Stork back when he was at his peak; one can argue perhaps Flash as well.
I'm also not particularly sure why you are bringing up Bisu's previous foray into "bonjwa-ness"; what merits does that comparison have?
Because Bisu got the necessary factors 2 season ago, to win everything all together, but he failed because he was not only one who was doing well in the current situations (6 dragons, Stork in particular). I'm not going to insult Jaedong or his fans, but by that time he had no major achievement in any of the leagues. Stork was not Bisu's only rival - fantasy was doing great and JangBi made it to the finals of both GOM and MSL.
And yes, with the exception of fantasy, Iris (?!) and maybe Bisu, every non-zerg player is having a hard time in the StarLeagues or even in PL. Who is contesting Jaedong's domination this season ? Calm, type-b, or maybe Kwanro? Damn, you EffOrt.
Still, while another 80% win rate monster is lurking around, how could you consider JD the undisputed best player in the world? As I said Jaedong wont have a better chance to win everything. All he has to do now is to beat fantasy and he will zvz his way to all golds
His huge lead in the KeSPa rank is only a matter of calculation formula, he never got away from Bisu in the ELO ranking, and his winning percentage is not by 700 points gap better than KTY's (in fact ever since JD won Batoo he is 70% percent win, where Bisu is 73%... this is ofc irrelevant since Jaedong played almost 20 games more)
On August 02 2009 00:15 disciple wrote: Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long.
Well.. Heartbreak Ridge is TvZ favored. Byzantium 3 is TvZ favored. Destination is TvZ favored. Shades of Twilight is TvZ favored... I doubt that really is the problem. And it wouldn't make sense to make a completely impossible TvZ map (No gas natural, very difficult to defend third base that has the second gas), that wouldn't really be fair since even if JD won less, no other Zergs could do anything.
What I was trying to say is that if Jaedong is to win everything this season it will be a result of long chain of events. Of course the main reason will be his incredible performance this season (approx 80% win rate in all 3 MU), but some other stuff to mention is that protoss suck badly, not even that, but JangBi was retarded enough to speed up the downfall process by trying to gang on Bisu. Flash sucks heavily in TvZ, and his only real rivals this season (no, EffOrt isnt one) are Bisu and fantasy, who killed each other in the MSL.
Given the fact that Jaedong is not a sole dominating force in the scene (hello KTY) you have to admit it wont get any easier for JD to achieve all his hall of fame goals such as bonjwa status, golden mouse etc. If you want to win it all you have to play a lot of games ,right... Bisu was in the same situation a while back, but he was just out of his slump and no one considered his rising a bonjwa run till the point where he won 2 SLs back to back. Bisu had to face Stork in the OSL as well, and the gap between these two is considerably smaller in comparison with Jaedong and the next top zerg, which I dont even know who he is.
Personally I dont want it to happen for subjective reasons but I'm sure Jaedong will win all titles this season, he has everything on his side.
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about; are you saying that the one of the reasons that Jaedong is winning everything this season is because everyone else...sucks? Your "Flash sucks heavily in TvZ" seems to be implying as such. As for "only real rivals": Bisu and Fantasy? Well, so? When you are at the very peak of the game, how many real rivals do you expect to have? Bisu's only real rival was Stork back when he was at his peak; one can argue perhaps Flash as well.
I'm also not particularly sure why you are bringing up Bisu's previous foray into "bonjwa-ness"; what merits does that comparison have?
Because Bisu got the necessary factors 2 season ago, to win everything all together, but he failed because he was not only one who was doing well in the current situations (6 dragons, Stork in particular). I'm not going to insult Jaedong or his fans, but by that time he had no major achievement in any of the leagues. Stork was not Bisu's only rival - fantasy was doing great and JangBi made it to the finals of both GOM and MSL.
And yes, with the exception of fantasy, Iris (?!) and maybe Bisu, every non-zerg player is having a hard time in the StarLeagues or even in PL. Who is contesting Jaedong's domination this season ? Calm, type-b, or maybe Kwanro? Damn, you EffOrt.
Still, while another 80% win rate monster is lurking around, how could you consider JD the undisputed best player in the world? As I said Jaedong wont have a better chance to win everything. All he has to do now is to beat fantasy and he will zvz his way to all golds
His huge lead in the KeSPa rank is only a matter of calculation formula, he never got away from Bisu in the ELO ranking, and his winning percentage is not by 700 points gap better than KTY's (in fact ever since JD won Batoo he is 70% percent win, where Bisu is 73%... this is ofc irrelevant since Jaedong played almost 20 games more)
Maybe Bisu should play well, then? Maybe he should win important games? Maybe he should win an OSL? =OOOOOO
On August 02 2009 04:09 darktreb wrote: Certainly, if he wins both leagues, he is indisputably the greatest Zerg of all time.
Was that ever in dispute? Jaedong firmly has the hold on greatest absolute play skill. The question was never "is Jaedong good enough?", but "is Jaedong dominant enough?".
He obviously has the most play skill, but then again Flash and Fantasy both obviously have more play skill than any of the Terran bonjwas ever had. "Greatest Zerg" is at least sort of in dispute as long as he doesn't have the most Starleague wins of any Zerg. If JD wins even one, he's probably there, but if he wins both he's clearly above Savior (3 MSL 1 OSL) and July (3 OSL), no matter how you want to measure the leagues (shot at the people who love super hyper devaluing MSL to look cool).
On August 02 2009 04:31 Shikyo wrote: Maybe Bisu should play well, then? Maybe he should win important games? Maybe he should win an OSL? =OOOOOO
Hahaha it brings me such joy that it's so easy to burn Bisu, even if he is the greatest Protoss player ever.
As usual, as long as there is (any reasonable) debate about bonjwa, he isn't one. But, if JD takes down Fantasy and Bisu (especially with dominating performances), it's going to be really hard not to use the word. This is coming from a huge Savior fan who cares a lot about protecting the "sanctity" of the overused bonjwa phrase.
Yes, because Jaedong is the greatest ZvZ player ever and he is just so much above everyone else in a matchup that is often considered a coinflip, it diminishes his greatness. Perhaps if he was less dominant in ZvZ he would be considered a more dominant player. Yeah, that makes sense. Seriously, it's no secret you're the biggest anti-Jaedong troller in this forum, I laugh everytime I see you post about him. And Bisu had a really easy road to in his last MSL win, are you serious, FBH and Hwasin, then Free and Jangbi (classic choker, exhibit A: owned by LUXURY in the following MSL final), just when Bisu was becoming really dominant in PvP? I guess it diminishes his wins since he was so much better at PvP than them according to your line of argument. And Bisu won a shitty tournament (GOM), barely squeaking by Flash 2-1 on Protoss favored maps and he didn't have to do it. Oh yeah, and here's the kicker. He didn't have to play those two tournaments in the same time frame.
If Jaedong wins both SL, he's about as close as you can get to a Bonjwa in the current age, and much closer than Bisu ever was.
@disicple: Oh, and another thing, Bisu didn't have to play Stork or Fantasy, his "rivals" that you cite as evidence of his dominance, in Clubday or Gom2 (Stork got BackHo'd). And I already mentioned why Jangbi was a creampuff opponent. I also like how you say
All he (Jaedong) has to do now is to beat fantasy
as if it's some meaningless feat yet you use Fantasy's presence in favor of Bisu's past dominance even though they never played in the aforementioned starleagues. Your argument is dripping with bias and an objective.
I think Jaedong is more dominant then any SC Bonjwa ever was. The only reason he is not considered Bonjwa is because a lot of people are still super attached to older Bonjwas and defensive about it.
On August 02 2009 00:15 disciple wrote: Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long.
Well.. Heartbreak Ridge is TvZ favored. Byzantium 3 is TvZ favored. Destination is TvZ favored. Shades of Twilight is TvZ favored... I doubt that really is the problem. And it wouldn't make sense to make a completely impossible TvZ map (No gas natural, very difficult to defend third base that has the second gas), that wouldn't really be fair since even if JD won less, no other Zergs could do anything.
What I was trying to say is that if Jaedong is to win everything this season it will be a result of long chain of events. Of course the main reason will be his incredible performance this season (approx 80% win rate in all 3 MU), but some other stuff to mention is that protoss suck badly, not even that, but JangBi was retarded enough to speed up the downfall process by trying to gang on Bisu. Flash sucks heavily in TvZ, and his only real rivals this season (no, EffOrt isnt one) are Bisu and fantasy, who killed each other in the MSL.
Given the fact that Jaedong is not a sole dominating force in the scene (hello KTY) you have to admit it wont get any easier for JD to achieve all his hall of fame goals such as bonjwa status, golden mouse etc. If you want to win it all you have to play a lot of games ,right... Bisu was in the same situation a while back, but he was just out of his slump and no one considered his rising a bonjwa run till the point where he won 2 SLs back to back. Bisu had to face Stork in the OSL as well, and the gap between these two is considerably smaller in comparison with Jaedong and the next top zerg, which I dont even know who he is.
Personally I dont want it to happen for subjective reasons but I'm sure Jaedong will win all titles this season, he has everything on his side.
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about; are you saying that the one of the reasons that Jaedong is winning everything this season is because everyone else...sucks? Your "Flash sucks heavily in TvZ" seems to be implying as such. As for "only real rivals": Bisu and Fantasy? Well, so? When you are at the very peak of the game, how many real rivals do you expect to have? Bisu's only real rival was Stork back when he was at his peak; one can argue perhaps Flash as well.
I'm also not particularly sure why you are bringing up Bisu's previous foray into "bonjwa-ness"; what merits does that comparison have?
Because Bisu got the necessary factors 2 season ago, to win everything all together, but he failed because he was not only one who was doing well in the current situations (6 dragons, Stork in particular). I'm not going to insult Jaedong or his fans, but by that time he had no major achievement in any of the leagues. Stork was not Bisu's only rival - fantasy was doing great and JangBi made it to the finals of both GOM and MSL.
And yes, with the exception of fantasy, Iris (?!) and maybe Bisu, every non-zerg player is having a hard time in the StarLeagues or even in PL. Who is contesting Jaedong's domination this season ? Calm, type-b, or maybe Kwanro? Damn, you EffOrt.
Still, while another 80% win rate monster is lurking around, how could you consider JD the undisputed best player in the world? As I said Jaedong wont have a better chance to win everything. All he has to do now is to beat fantasy and he will zvz his way to all golds
His huge lead in the KeSPa rank is only a matter of calculation formula, he never got away from Bisu in the ELO ranking, and his winning percentage is not by 700 points gap better than KTY's (in fact ever since JD won Batoo he is 70% percent win, where Bisu is 73%... this is ofc irrelevant since Jaedong played almost 20 games more)
What are you talking about? Bisu had the necessary factors to win 2 seasons ago and instead decided to fail because he lost out of both leagues due to ZERG opponents in groups that he himself picked. That has nothing to do with how well the 6 dragons were doing: that had to do with his own performance.
As for whoever is contesting Jaedong's domination: it is by definition that there would be virtually no one to contest. Isn't that part of the definition of bonjwa anyways? To be so far ahead of your peers that no one can be your rival. As for his difficulty getting all golds: he has to go through Fantasy, go through Fake Yellow, go through potentially Bisu or Iris for the MSL. I'm not sure why you didn't bring that up instead of "zvz[ing] his way to all golds". A potential series against the best PvZ in the world, and a series against the best TvZ in world isn't a lot?
It is not also simply a question of ZvZing; which too isn't as easy as you make it out to be. A slip-up can easily mean a lost gold for him: just look at his series against EffOrt.
You keep playing down how easily Jaedong appears to be able to take both leagues, but if you look at his route objectively, you cannot argue that his road is any more easy than any other traditional road. Certainly, he didn't have to face all the top 10 players in a row to reach both finals, but he faced/is facing five out of the nine Power Rankers other than himself. Two of them are even the ones directly below him!
@ahole-surprise : first of all, I die a little bit inside whenever you post, but the pain is sweet. You and guys like SuperArc are the only reason I dont like Jaedong, cause as a player, I never took anything away from him.
second, your post makes completely no sense, all you did is being completely unreasonable. Have I said somewhere that Bisu's MSL road was hard? Its completely comparable with what Jaedong is going through right now. JD is in perfect situation to win everything, and yes, its because he will have to play a lot of games in best match up. Do you see anywhere stuff like 'JD sucks cause he will win playing only zvz' ? Besides its not even his fault, I just pointed that 1 of all 8 spots of the Ro8 in the StarLeagues has been filled with protoss players, and that fantasy is the only consistent terran player in the last couple of seasons.
If Jaedong doesnt win the OSL or the MSL its most likely be another zerg player to win those. If Bisu failed in GOM and MSL, another protoss player would've had the badges... Because the zerg players are so dominant lately, Jaedong gets to play a lot of games in his best MU, during this so called bonjwa run. I dont know how to say it otherwise, from his point of view this is just a very desirable situation to be in. It would've been a whole different situation if he was in the Ro4 of both SL surrounded of terran players with maps like Tiamath and Jim Raynors Memory in the poll. Savior, the last bonjwa there will ever be, overcame unfavorable maps to achieve this title. The last time Jaedong was in similar position was in Arena MSL, where he lost the final to the onfire ForGG + bad zvt maps, and the more recent example was the taekbang season when he barely reached Ro16 of any SL...
Jaedong is the best zerg player ever, arguably the most talented progamer ever to live. He deserves everything he gets. But he is not the undisputed best at what he does, unfortunately for him it just happened that there are a couple of players that are pretty close to him in terms of skills and performance. If Jaedong ever becomes established as bonjwa by the community, it will be because the community needs to recognize another untouchable and undisputed face., not because he is that much better than the players from his generation.
To conclude this long post, I will say that as a poster and as person trying to prove his statement with valid points you are pathetic.Maybe you are a real life nice guy but when you post about Jaedong, I'm pretty sure one of your hands is in your pants, and whenever you post about some other player, that is not called Jaedong, all the other hand is typing is shit.
Really sorry that ppl had to read this last paragraph
It's kind of strange you write that, since I hardly post, let alone about Jaedong, and I'm pretty sure you have homosexual feelings for Bisu based on your massive post history involving Bisu LOL.
JD is in perfect situation to win everything, and yes, its because he will have to play a lot of games in best match up. Do you see anywhere stuff like 'JD sucks cause he will win playing only zvz' ?
The point is you are saying it diminishes his accomplishment somehow, that he's "lucky", that he gets to play his best matchup because his best matchup is so dominating, which is at best a pointless claim to make and coming from you it's pretty clear you just want to undermine him. If Jaedong wins both SL in the same time frame, he will be closer to Bonjwa than Bisu ever was, and it makes no difference if he gets to play ZvZ because it's so god like (as if that's a point against him) because Bisu played creampuff opponents during his 2 SL run and he didn't even have to do it in the same time frame. I also never said Jaedong WILL be Bonjwa, just that he's as close as you can get in this age if he wins the upcoming 2 SL
Edit: Oh and by the way, I like a lot of players as much as Jaedong including Savior, JulyZerg, Flash, Nada, and Stork.
As for whoever is contesting Jaedong's domination: it is by definition that there would be virtually no one to contest. Isn't that part of the definition of bonjwa anyways? To be so far ahead of your peers that no one can be your rival.
This is the opposite of what the Bonjwas were, really. Every Bonjwa had a rival or even rivals -- they're the same rivals that come up everytime someone makes a thread about the best rivals of all time. Some are closer than others, as we all know Boxer vs Yellow isn't that close, but then you have stuff like Savior vs Nada which definitely was close, or Oov vs July, and July had Oov's number for a good while before Oov adapted. Also Oov and Reach to a lesser extent.
Being a Bonjwa isn't having no rivals, it's more overcoming all rivals, and always being the favorite, even against your rivals, to a lesser extent (which Jaedong is dangerously close to). Oov lost games, even series to his rivals, but he eventually and inevitably overcame them, and he was still the most dominant player of all time. Savior's the same, overcoming Nal_ra at first, and then Nada and Iris in easily his biggest tests as Bonjwa.
The reason Jaedong doesn't have that bonjwa aura, though, is because he didn't dominate the scene before his rivals appeared, or stepped up to challenge him. Thinking back on Oov and Savior, they both had their share of rivals, but they were already dominating the scene before they showed up(Well Nal_Ra was older than Savior but he just kind of came out of nowhere to take a surprising number of games over the Maestro). Jaedong doesn't have this luxury, as his biggest rival showed up before him (Bisu). He never had a chance to dominate the scene convincingly for a time before being challenged -- he was just always challenged.
If anything, it's kind of the other way around though. Bisu was locked for Bonjwa-hood, 2 MSLs and the dethroning of Savior? The problem was he didn't overcome his rivals. Stork, Flash, Jaedong? While he may have series wins over all of them, he's the only one out of the group without an OSL title.
If Jaedong is to be a Bonjwa, he'll be similar to Nada. Nada's biggest competition back in the day was pretty much Boxer, iirc (correct me if I'm wrong, please) and Reach to a lesser extent -- both of who came along around the same time or before him(EDIT: also Chojja. Can't believe I forgot Chojja. Dude met him in the MSL and OSL finals, how silly of me). He surpassed both of them. If Jaedong's to be a Bonjwa, it'll be in the same vein as Nada, because his rivals didn't necessarily come after him, but around the same time (flash) or before (Bisu). Bisu's missed his chance to be like Oov and Savior.
Also because he'll have a Golden Mouse, heh.
If it happens, it'll happen. It's might be a bit retrospective but Jaedong's already passed Bisu up for closest person to be a Bonjwa who isn't quiiiiite there yet.
On August 02 2009 04:09 darktreb wrote: Did we really need an arbitrary ranking system (made by Kespa no less) to tell us that Jaedong, the winner of the previous OSL and a semifinalist in both current Starleagues and co-winner of most games in Proleague is absolutely amazing right now? Nothing annoys me more than people catering stats, especially an arbitrary ranking system, to support their rguments.
Bonjwa is decided by watching players, not points. If JD beats Fantasy and then wins OSL (a near certainty he wins a ZvZ final) and also beats Bisu in the MSL finals (or some other player, but preferably Bisu), it will be very, very hard not to be overwhelmed by his dominance and start LEGITIMATELY using the most overused word on TL.
Certainly, if he wins both leagues, he is indisputably the greatest Zerg of all time.
If he can beat Bisu in MSL Finals (if Bisu even makes it there *facepalm*) and fantasy and win OSL (not to mention help guide his team to proleague win) there is a convincing argument for the overused word.
Pains me to say as a Bisu fan. Bisu had his couple of chances to do it... but he failed out GAH.
Hoping that fantasy takes him out in OSL, and he gets owned by calm or Bisu in the MSL... and his team loses in proleague..
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
On August 02 2009 07:04 Simplistik wrote: The six highest ranked toss are of course the dragons, oh and the Only ranked ones. When are we gonna see a new Protoss powerhouse?
Violet. He's not the talk of the town anymore, since Proleague ended without KTF in the playoffs, but he's powerful and new.
sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
No. Also you are completely disregarding my post.
I'm not doing this, with ahole-surprise we were talking about JD/Bisu domination in the mirror match up, which is exactly relevant in the whole case. As good as your examples are, they are much more related to the state of the metagame of the time periods you are talking about. Being dominant in say tvz and or pvz (sorry) is not the same as kicking ass in zvz. If Savior had to destroy mostly zerg in his bonjwa path, he would've failed to do it, because he was not the best zvz-er even in his prime, Chojja was.
and lol after Lost Saga MSL I promised myself never to get involved in fanboyish flame wars, but I guess its just too much fun, right MrHoon ? :D
Jaedong has 17.40% of the top 10 Kespa Points. Savior had 20.66% of the top 10 in march of 07 Kespa points, which was when he had his biggest lead on second place.
And based off the inflation from the total top 10 point from then till now, savior would have had around 3200, which is about the same as Jaedong. And Nada who was the second place at the time would have had around 2500, which is also the same as what Bisu has. But Nada had 78.8% of Savior's points, while Bisu only has 77.8% of Jaedong's
I know these stats aren't that accurate or even say much, but its easier to compare when the numbers are relative instead of random kespa numbers.
Kicking ass in zvz is far more impressive to me than kicking ass in zvp or zvt. Long considered to be heavily luck based, the matchup, in my opinion, has become by far the most competitive of all nine matchups in what seems to be the last 4-5 months. (Since the new maps, I guess). Numerous people overlook how much Jaedong has "revolutionized" zvz and has shown that starting off with a "disadvantagish" build order does not seal your doom at all: you can still win if you micro properly. It's the most unforgiving matchup as well; losing a single unit, be it a drone or zergling, uselessly could very easily lose you the game. (Just felt that had to be said. ZvZ is different than it used to be because of Jaedong.)
-------- I actually fully agree with you IntotheWow. You could take off your suit, you're post was very fair.
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
On August 01 2009 20:16 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's hard to believe that there was a time when 3 protosses were ranked higher than Jaedong. My how the times have changed.
Yeah.. really.
I remember the golden age of protoss when protoss would win like 80% of their games.
I think the 3 hatch spire --> 5 hatch hydra build is really making it hard for p's now pvz.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
No. Also you are completely disregarding my post.
I'm not doing this, with ahole-surprise we were talking about JD/Bisu domination in the mirror match up, which is exactly relevant in the whole case. As good as your examples are, they are much more related to the state of the metagame of the time periods you are talking about. Being dominant in say tvz and or pvz (sorry) is not the same as kicking ass in zvz. If Savior had to destroy mostly zerg in his bonjwa path, he would've failed to do it, because he was not the best zvz-er even in his prime, Chojja was.
and lol after Lost Saga MSL I promised myself never to get involved in fanboyish flame wars, but I guess its just too much fun, right MrHoon ? :D
Actually, you are, read my post again.
In your post you talked about how other Bonjwas were farther above their Rivals then Jaedong, when in truth he has the record of being the farthest above his rivals. The statistics were posted in this thread, before your post, actually.
Also how is he lucky that he has the best ZvZ? He was not born with it. Also, it has already been said to you that even though he crushed zerg rivals, he will also face the best players the other races have to offer. If their were less zerg, he would also have more time to practice against other races. (even though he is a favourite against any other player, of any race, in existence).
How could you possibly say that his road is easy because he is good?
You say Savior is the last bonjwa. What if Jaedong wins both starleagues?
Also it is more significant if he wins because he would be the only Bonjwa that did not drastically alter the metagame.
You act like being good at a matchup that you face is unfair, even though all of his other matchups are favourites against any player in the world. You act like other Bonjwas never had any "advantages".
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
No. Also you are completely disregarding my post.
I'm not doing this, with ahole-surprise we were talking about JD/Bisu domination in the mirror match up, which is exactly relevant in the whole case. As good as your examples are, they are much more related to the state of the metagame of the time periods you are talking about. Being dominant in say tvz and or pvz (sorry) is not the same as kicking ass in zvz. If Savior had to destroy mostly zerg in his bonjwa path, he would've failed to do it, because he was not the best zvz-er even in his prime, Chojja was.
and lol after Lost Saga MSL I promised myself never to get involved in fanboyish flame wars, but I guess its just too much fun, right MrHoon ? :D
Actually, you are, read my post again.
In your post you talked about how other Bonjwas were farther above their Rivals then Jaedong, when in truth he has the record of being the farthest above his rivals. The statistics were posted in this thread, before your post, actually.
Also how is he lucky that he has the best ZvZ? He was not born with it. Also, it has already been said to you that even though he crushed zerg rivals, he will also face the best players the other races have to offer. If their were less zerg, he would also have more time to practice against other races. (even though he is a favourite against any other player, of any race, in existence).
How could you possibly say that his road is easy because he is good?
You say Savior is the last bonjwa. What if Jaedong wins both starleagues?
Also it is more significant if he wins because he would be the only Bonjwa that did not drastically alter the metagame.
You act like being good at a matchup that you face is unfair, even though all of his other matchups are favourites against any player in the world. You act like other Bonjwas never had any "advantages".
edit: for spelling
but right now Jaedong doesnt really have any rivals. there are just other players that are also doing good.
also i think you are wrong saying he is favourite against any other player of any race in existence. he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague. and i think Effort and Yellow[Arnc] also have realistic chances to beat him, maybe even Canata, Flash, Fantasy and Jangbi if they have a perfect day.
well i think it is a bit lucky his best mu is zvz, as the momentum is for zerg at the moment and he will hardly face other races. of course he practised months if not years very hard for his zvz, but he couldnt know that it would be the age of zerg today
i know it was bo1, but Yellow[Arnc] beat him in OSL and in my eyes Jangbi is a player who can beat everyone on a good day as he went into MSL final and for example beat Calm in Proleague
edit: yes i know Flash isnt the old one. i just put him in because he was the best terran untill some weeks before and i think no one should underestimate him.
but in the end sports/games can never be predicted 100% before
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite. Not to mention that he has, and it's pointless to judge a potential Bo5, for the most part, based on previous results. It's better to judge by current form.
It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage) and JD wins both leagues without facing him. That's going to create an argument storm on TL.
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
I agree with everything you say there, even though I'll be honest enough to say that I am not able to judge whether JD is/will be bonjwa because I simply haven't been following starcraft during the bonjwa eras and haven't experienced what it's like.
On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite.
since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz).
talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
On August 02 2009 09:27 darktreb wrote: It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage)
Dude.. the guy has won three of em... you make it sound like he's a constant msl failure
On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite.
since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz).
talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
uhmm... no Jaedong won their last bo5. And their last proleague match doesn't say too much cuz of the stupid spire cancellation. And there's no Zerg that Jaedong isn't favourite over.
dont get me wrong guys, i am following sc since Ever 2007 OSL when Jaedong won vs Stork but while thinking about Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior i FEEL that they are Bonjwa. when thinking about Jaedong i just feel a player who is like the others, just practising more thus being better.
this and my protoss heart tell me that Bisu is nearer to be Bonjwa, although he never won OSL and is out of this OSL after loosing vs "bad" players i think he is more than just a normal player who is better than the others. i have the same feeling for Canata, but probably he wont be good enough to be considered being Bonjwa.
On August 02 2009 09:27 darktreb wrote: It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage)
Dude.. the guy has won three of em... you make it sound like he's a constant msl failure
On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite.
since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz).
talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
uhmm... no Jaedong won their last bo5. And their last proleague match doesn't say too much cuz of the stupid spire cancellation. And there's no Zerg that Jaedong isn't favourite over.
you got me wrong, i know that Jaedong won 3:2 vs Bisu
On August 02 2009 09:34 ShaperofDreams wrote: I am curious who here thinks that Jaedongs 5 hatch against protoss drastically altered the metagame?
In comparison to Saviors/Nada's/Iloveoov's/Boxer's innovations?
Not even close.
Jaedong's 5-hatch altered how one matchup was played. The innovations of the past Bonjwas altered how the ENTIRE GAME was played.
Well it's not like JD only influenced ZvP, more than anything else he completely revolutionised ZvZ, and he also influenced ZvT from being savioresque macro wars to superaggressiveness.
Although I'll still admit that I do not have enough knowledge to judge whether that is AS much as the influence of the bonjwas.
On August 02 2009 09:37 imperator-xy wrote: dont get me wrong guys, i am following sc since Ever 2007 OSL when Jaedong won vs Stork but while thinking about Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior i FEEL that they are Bonjwa. when thinking about Jaedong i just feel a player who is like the others, just practising more thus being better.
this and my protoss heart tell me that Bisu is nearer to be Bonjwa, although he never won OSL and is out of this OSL after loosing vs "bad" players i think he is more than just a normal player who is better than the others. i have the same feeling for Canata, but probably he wont be good enough to be considered being Bonjwa.
On August 02 2009 09:27 darktreb wrote: It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage)
Dude.. the guy has won three of em... you make it sound like he's a constant msl failure
On August 02 2009 09:31 imperator-xy wrote:
On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite.
since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz).
talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
uhmm... no Jaedong won their last bo5. And their last proleague match doesn't say too much cuz of the stupid spire cancellation. And there's no Zerg that Jaedong isn't favourite over.
you got me wrong, i know that Jaedong won 3:2 vs Bisu
Oh yeah I did get you wrong, sorry about that.
but wow
Canata... and Bonjwa... in the same sentence...??? (yeah I know you know he's not good enough for that but still...) sorry but I think that proves that your feeling about Bisu is worthless if you have the same kind of feeling about him ^^
Even if Jaedong still isn't considered a bonjwa if he wins the OSL/MSL I still think that that accomplishment would be comparable to anything any other bonjwas did (Simultaneously winning the OSL/MSL AND carrying your team to the grand finals??). The main difference would be the length of dominance. Jaedong would probably need to make it to 2 more OSL finals, win or lose, to be considered the bonjwa in this day and age.
i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
by the way didnt July invent that aggressive muta play in zvt?
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
No, July zerg popularized it; Shark invented it. Jaedong has made few complete overhauls to the metagame like other bonjwas, but he has definitely influenced the zerg metagame the most in the last few years.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: by the way didnt July invent that aggressive muta play in zvt?
I'm sure he meant that it was Jaedong that popularized 2 hatch muta gayness, which altered the entire ZvT matchup. Mechonic is probably a direct response to 2 hatch mutas.
Jaedong is already consistent and dominant, he's maintained a >65% win rate for years, he just needs more titles. I really hope he wins these two starleagues even though it's such a hard thing to do.
Also I don't think it's a great idea to have to much faith in statistics between old Bonjwas and current superstars. This game is so much more competitive now and the innovations are less advantageous.
edit: example: remember those old vods where it just shows savior/july using muta to rape a terran who has like ZERO turrets/terrible turret timing. On a map that is perfect for it?
Saying that someone is lucky to be good at a matchup without considering what paved the way for all of the previous stars is ignorant.
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
All I'm trying to say is Jaedong is not as accomplished in those areas as the bonjwas. Of course Jaedong is heading a good way, but he has not shown a neither one of the previous "bonjwa-status" profiles nor a new one.
Jaedong wins a lot of games, but games are being played more and more often. This in oov times was a lot harder, way harder. What did Jaedong bring to the table? his muta micro is impressive, but July and other progamers already showed that.
Jaedong is an agressive type of zerg, but we have been seeing those since who knows when.
Lol, come on. AKS, where you here 4 years ago or 5? Do you remember how hard PvZ was back then? Do you know Nal_rA is one of the reasons (along with anytime and bisu) why PvZ works "better" knowadays? Sure Nal_rA has a losing record vs SaviOr on televised games. But (and this is a big but) you are talking about SaviOr IN HIS PRIME, in his STRONGEST match up, when he was changing the way the game was played, versus nal_ra, who is a genius, but was already a pretty old player. Nal_rA even cannon rushed savior. I know the comparison seems a little off, but it would be like stoving NaDa, or beating oov with burrow.
People always complain about how the old gamers fall behind to the new macro machines, but nal_ra already had his time when savior came, and as far as i can remember, he was one of the only protoss to be a serious competition to him.
Jaedong is heading the right way in terms of achievements, and all im saying is that he's not a B yet. He might be in 1 or 2 years, or maybe in 6 months, who knows. He might win a ridiculous amount of leagues in no time, or stay with us for another 4 years (if SCII doesn't kill SC:BW :p) but right now I don't think he deserves to be on the same scale as the other 4.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
Rock, Paper, Scissors. That's the way ZvZ was viewed until Jaedong came along. He got people to realise how important is to count every single drone, to always know when to be where, when to build what, when to play aggressive when to play defensively etc. etc.
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
All I'm trying to say is Jaedong is not as accomplished in those areas as the bonjwas. Of course Jaedong is heading a good way, but he has not shown a neither one of the previous "bonjwa-status" profiles nor a new one.
Jaedong wins a lot of games, but games are being played more and more often. This in oov times was a lot harder, way harder. What did Jaedong bring to the table? his muta micro is impressive, but July and other progamers already showed that.
Jaedong is an agressive type of zerg, but we have been seeing those since who knows when.
Lol, come on. AKS, where you here 4 years ago or 5? Do you remember how hard PvZ was back then? Do you know Nal_rA is one of the reasons (along with anytime and bisu) why PvZ works "better" knowadays? Sure Nal_rA has a losing record vs SaviOr on televised games. But (and this is a big but) you are talking about SaviOr IN HIS PRIME, in his STRONGEST match up, when he was changing the way the game was played, versus nal_ra, who is a genius, but was already a pretty old player. Nal_rA even cannon rushed savior. I know the comparison seems a little off, but it would be like stoving NaDa, or beating oov with burrow.
People always complain about how the old gamers fall behind to the new macro machines, but nal_ra already had his time when savior came, and as far as i can remember, he was one of the only protoss to be a serious competition to him.
Jaedong is heading the right way in terms of achievements, and all im saying is that he's not a B yet. He might be in 1 or 2 years, or maybe in 6 months, who knows. He might win a ridiculous amount of leagues in no time, or stay with us for another 4 years (if SCII doesn't kill SC:BW :p) but right now I don't think he deserves to be on the same scale as the other 4.
Savior was a big fish in a little pond, Jaedong a shark in the ocean.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
I agree that fantasy is not the best TvZ player in the world, but i still think that he is the best terran right now to beat jaedong. Most of the other terrans always use the same builds, which doesn't work too well in a bo5 against jaedongs perfect mechanics. But fantasy with the help of boxer and iloveoov can catch jaedong off guard or play pretty standard but benefit from his image of using new builds.
Still i think jaedong is a heavy favorit to win. His mechanics always help him while fantasy might fall apart when he isn't able to close the match 3-0, because his preperation for set 4 and 5 might not be good enough.
That's a huge lead JD got! But i think its better to wait after starleagues and Proleague finals... I mean if he looses to Fantasy in OSL, Bisu wins the MSL and SKT1 wins the finals.. Would that place JD ahead or after Bisu in Kespa rankings? Does anyone know how much points a player earn in Kespa rankings for a Starleauge win anyways?
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
Rock, Paper, Scissors. That's the way ZvZ was viewed until Jaedong came along. He got people to realise how important is to count every single drone, to always know when to be where, when to build what, when to play aggressive when to play defensively etc. etc.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
Rock, Paper, Scissors. That's the way ZvZ was viewed until Jaedong came along. He got people to realise how important is to count every single drone, to always know when to be where, when to build what, when to play aggressive when to play defensively etc. etc.
Shouldn't it be Shark?
If you're talking about the muta micro, yes shark invented that, avidkeystamper already answered that
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
All I'm trying to say is Jaedong is not as accomplished in those areas as the bonjwas. Of course Jaedong is heading a good way, but he has not shown a neither one of the previous "bonjwa-status" profiles nor a new one.
Jaedong wins a lot of games, but games are being played more and more often. This in oov times was a lot harder, way harder. What did Jaedong bring to the table? his muta micro is impressive, but July and other progamers already showed that.
Jaedong is an agressive type of zerg, but we have been seeing those since who knows when.
Lol, come on. AKS, where you here 4 years ago or 5? Do you remember how hard PvZ was back then? Do you know Nal_rA is one of the reasons (along with anytime and bisu) why PvZ works "better" knowadays? Sure Nal_rA has a losing record vs SaviOr on televised games. But (and this is a big but) you are talking about SaviOr IN HIS PRIME, in his STRONGEST match up, when he was changing the way the game was played, versus nal_ra, who is a genius, but was already a pretty old player. Nal_rA even cannon rushed savior. I know the comparison seems a little off, but it would be like stoving NaDa, or beating oov with burrow.
People always complain about how the old gamers fall behind to the new macro machines, but nal_ra already had his time when savior came, and as far as i can remember, he was one of the only protoss to be a serious competition to him.
Jaedong is heading the right way in terms of achievements, and all im saying is that he's not a B yet. He might be in 1 or 2 years, or maybe in 6 months, who knows. He might win a ridiculous amount of leagues in no time, or stay with us for another 4 years (if SCII doesn't kill SC:BW :p) but right now I don't think he deserves to be on the same scale as the other 4.
Savior was a big fish in a little pond, Jaedong a shark in the ocean.
SaviOr was a Salmon, swimming against the current.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well.
He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong.
Jaedong's ZvT actually used to be extremely dominant back in late 07 and early 08. I think he had like a 80% winrate in it for a while until he started sucking later in 08 spring. Jaedong's defiler and ultraling play used to be almost unbeatable for a long time. Not sure if he ever revolutionized it, though. Until his 2h mutas vs Flash, of course, after which 2h muta became immensely popular and a part of the standard play. Before that it was considered to be kind of a cheesy allin build.
It's also silly to say that he's not revolutionized ZvZ. Jaedong playing ZvZ shows that every BO has advantages agaisnt the other BOs, for example 9pool has faster tech and more gas than 12pool and so on, and you can overcome any difficulties with proper micro and gamesense. Even today no one in the entire world understands ZvZ better than Jaedong does, and it's the single most dominant match-up in the history of starcraft, ever(over such a long sample size).
Jaedong in ZvP innovated with the 3 hatch spire and also the scourge play and popularized the build and made it pretty much the standard ZvP nowadays.
In addition to standard play, JD has innovated a lot of creative cheesy builds and refines July's aggression to another level while still possessing a world-class standard macro game. Adaptability like that is admirable. I still believe that Jaedong has the best macro out of all the Zergs out there, even though his micro is his greatest strenght.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well.
He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong.
Actually, although Fantasy just might have the best chances against Jaedong... why does everyone seem to forget about Iris's TvZ? We all know the problem with Flash's TvZ; He's too greedy. Iris on the other hand can be aggressive and smart, as he was able to show in his 3-0 victory over Effort. Then again, he did lose to Odin, so maybe he's quite inconsistant... in any case, it's one of those 3(Flash, Iris, Fantasy), no one else. Not Light or anything silly like that, and definitely not Sea.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
I agree that fantasy is not the best TvZ player in the world, but i still think that he is the best terran right now to beat jaedong. Most of the other terrans always use the same builds, which doesn't work too well in a bo5 against jaedongs perfect mechanics. But fantasy with the help of boxer and iloveoov can catch jaedong off guard or play pretty standard but benefit from his image of using new builds.
Still i think jaedong is a heavy favorit to win. His mechanics always help him while fantasy might fall apart when he isn't able to close the match 3-0, because his preperation for set 4 and 5 might not be good enough.
I think yours is a very valid view, you dont have to necessarily be the best to beat the best as great Teddy Atlas said "Styles make fights". So you may very well be true especially with these maps maybe that innovation is a key to beating the tyrant zerg. But those saying fantasy is the best TvZ are absurd and should try using sound reasoning next time.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well.
He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong.
Actually, although Fantasy just might have the best chances against Jaedong... why does everyone seem to forget about Iris's TvZ? We all know the problem with Flash's TvZ; He's too greedy. Iris on the other hand can be aggressive and smart, as he was able to show in his 3-0 victory over Effort. Then again, he did lose to Odin, so maybe he's quite inconsistant... in any case, it's one of those 3(Flash, Iris, Fantasy), no one else. Not Light or anything silly like that, and definitely not Sea.
Gee not like Sea doesn't have the 2nd best winning percentage TvZ still active(hes played considerably more games than Flash. Sea has also had epic games with Jaedong, but I digress Im not saying Fantasy isnt one of the best likely terran canidates to take down Jaedong, Im saying he definitely doesn't have the best TvZ, see my post above.
On August 02 2009 11:02 IntoTheWow wrote: Light is incredibly good with straight up bio play.
His Mech was also undefeated for quite some time, I do recall him rolling Jaedong on Medusa with mech in that OSL set I mentioned.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
I agree that fantasy is not the best TvZ player in the world, but i still think that he is the best terran right now to beat jaedong. Most of the other terrans always use the same builds, which doesn't work too well in a bo5 against jaedongs perfect mechanics. But fantasy with the help of boxer and iloveoov can catch jaedong off guard or play pretty standard but benefit from his image of using new builds.
Still i think jaedong is a heavy favorit to win. His mechanics always help him while fantasy might fall apart when he isn't able to close the match 3-0, because his preperation for set 4 and 5 might not be good enough.
I think yours is a very valid view, you dont have to necessarily be the best to beat the best as great Teddy Atlas said "Styles make fights". So you may very well be true especially with these maps maybe that innovation is a key to beating the tyrant zerg. But those saying fantasy is the best TvZ are absurd and should try using sound reasoning next time.
Well but what is the last time you saw Sea beat a top Zerg? I bet it was a long time ago.
Anyways, while I did say that fantasy had the best TvZ, my main point was that it's ridiculous to say JD has an easy way to his titles when he might have to face the most difficult opponents in canata fantasy bisu. And I jumped at your post because I thought mentioning players like casy, hwasin and sea was ridiculous (as absolutely amazing as they once were). No I am not sure that fantasy does have the best overall TvZ in the world,but I think he's pretty much a bigger thread than anyone else in a BO5. So I think our argument is over ^^
it seems only the zergs have been doing the moving up from this. I'm behind on the new pro maps so I would only assume it is them to blame. If not then cool zergs. This is outside counting jaedong who is a beats regardless
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well.
He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong.
Actually, although Fantasy just might have the best chances against Jaedong... why does everyone seem to forget about Iris's TvZ? We all know the problem with Flash's TvZ; He's too greedy. Iris on the other hand can be aggressive and smart, as he was able to show in his 3-0 victory over Effort. Then again, he did lose to Odin, so maybe he's quite inconsistant... in any case, it's one of those 3(Flash, Iris, Fantasy), no one else. Not Light or anything silly like that, and definitely not Sea.
No way in hell would Iris win a Bo5 vs JD. Iris depends too much on BO wins and early game aggressiveness. He's like the Terran version of Kwanro. His late-game mechanics suck compared to JD. Knowing this, JD would just play safe builds with a lot of scouting and take it to late game every time.
I dunno about Iris being the terran version of kwanro...Iris late game TvZ does get a little sloppy at times, but hes still strong unlike someone like lomo. Kwanros lategame is also a bit under rated (not that it usually goes that far). That being said hed of course most likely lose to JD.
jaedong will be bonjwa when people call jaedong bonjwa, even if he goes on a 100 game winning streak from today crushing all opponents like ants.
People were still calling sAviOr bonjwa even after he lost to bisu and FBH. People will still call jaedong "not bonjwa" even if he wins both the MSL and OSL and takes the proleague trophy for his team.
Jaedong, despite being my favorite player, is not yet a bonjwa. If he wins the OSL and MSL, taking down both Fantasy and Bisu in the process, it would be hard not to call him one. That is IF he continues to be dominant
On August 02 2009 09:31 imperator-xy wrote: Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
i really dont care about the B discussion...but i just cant agree with you on that..
isnt it funny that the mere suggestion of a zerg being equal to jaedong is more of a troll attempt than a mere discussion only jaedong can invoke such funny results any other player and we seriously had to discuss it but with jaedong its .... "stop trolling and get back when he gets a title " lol
On August 02 2009 07:04 Simplistik wrote: The six highest ranked toss are of course the dragons, oh and the Only ranked ones. When are we gonna see a new Protoss powerhouse?
Violet. He's not the talk of the town anymore, since Proleague ended without KTF in the playoffs, but he's powerful and new.
On August 04 2009 14:40 Mortician wrote: If JD takes both the OSL and MSl, he will be crowned bonjwa by the community, he doesn't deserve it because he throws away games
EPT
Jaedong 3224.5 -
Bisu 2510.3 -
Flash (KT FingerBoom LOL) 2068.3 -
The only reason he's broken 3k is because of the KeSPA rank restructuring which handed out a lot more points than the old system. Before the overhaul it was incredibly difficult to break 1000, hence why no one had done this before. Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior probably would have done the same tbh =/
since when?
