On August 02 2009 09:34 ShaperofDreams wrote: I am curious who here thinks that Jaedongs 5 hatch against protoss drastically altered the metagame?
In comparison to Saviors/Nada's/Iloveoov's/Boxer's innovations?
Not even close.
Jaedong's 5-hatch altered how one matchup was played. The innovations of the past Bonjwas altered how the ENTIRE GAME was played.
Well it's not like JD only influenced ZvP, more than anything else he completely revolutionised ZvZ, and he also influenced ZvT from being savioresque macro wars to superaggressiveness.
Although I'll still admit that I do not have enough knowledge to judge whether that is AS much as the influence of the bonjwas.
On August 02 2009 09:37 imperator-xy wrote: dont get me wrong guys, i am following sc since Ever 2007 OSL when Jaedong won vs Stork but while thinking about Boxer, Nada, Oov, Savior i FEEL that they are Bonjwa. when thinking about Jaedong i just feel a player who is like the others, just practising more thus being better.
this and my protoss heart tell me that Bisu is nearer to be Bonjwa, although he never won OSL and is out of this OSL after loosing vs "bad" players i think he is more than just a normal player who is better than the others. i have the same feeling for Canata, but probably he wont be good enough to be considered being Bonjwa.
On August 02 2009 09:27 darktreb wrote: It's going to be a really tough call if Bisu manages to choke his way out of another Starleague (though usually he does his MSL choking well before this stage)
Dude.. the guy has won three of em... you make it sound like he's a constant msl failure
On August 02 2009 09:31 imperator-xy wrote:
On August 02 2009 09:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: You say that saying "Jaedong is the favorite against any other player is wrong" and yet you admit that he's the favorite against everyone you listed. Realistic chances does not mean the other guy is a favorite.
"he still has to prove that he can beat Bisu in a bo5 in a starleague" Doesn't mean he's not the slight favorite.
since Bisu beat him in Proleague and their last bo5 (it was like 6 months ago) was 2:3 i think chances are pretty much 50:50 if not 55:45 for Bisu (hey its pvz).
talking about Effort and Yellow[Arnc] having realistic chances i wanted to say that you cant really say whos the favourite in those matches. Maybe Jaedong is a slight favourite over Yarnc, but i dont think hes favourite over Effort
uhmm... no Jaedong won their last bo5. And their last proleague match doesn't say too much cuz of the stupid spire cancellation. And there's no Zerg that Jaedong isn't favourite over.
you got me wrong, i know that Jaedong won 3:2 vs Bisu
Oh yeah I did get you wrong, sorry about that.
but wow
Canata... and Bonjwa... in the same sentence...??? (yeah I know you know he's not good enough for that but still...) sorry but I think that proves that your feeling about Bisu is worthless if you have the same kind of feeling about him ^^
Even if Jaedong still isn't considered a bonjwa if he wins the OSL/MSL I still think that that accomplishment would be comparable to anything any other bonjwas did (Simultaneously winning the OSL/MSL AND carrying your team to the grand finals??). The main difference would be the length of dominance. Jaedong would probably need to make it to 2 more OSL finals, win or lose, to be considered the bonjwa in this day and age.
i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
by the way didnt July invent that aggressive muta play in zvt?
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
No, July zerg popularized it; Shark invented it. Jaedong has made few complete overhauls to the metagame like other bonjwas, but he has definitely influenced the zerg metagame the most in the last few years.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: by the way didnt July invent that aggressive muta play in zvt?
I'm sure he meant that it was Jaedong that popularized 2 hatch muta gayness, which altered the entire ZvT matchup. Mechonic is probably a direct response to 2 hatch mutas.
Jaedong is already consistent and dominant, he's maintained a >65% win rate for years, he just needs more titles. I really hope he wins these two starleagues even though it's such a hard thing to do.
Also I don't think it's a great idea to have to much faith in statistics between old Bonjwas and current superstars. This game is so much more competitive now and the innovations are less advantageous.
edit: example: remember those old vods where it just shows savior/july using muta to rape a terran who has like ZERO turrets/terrible turret timing. On a map that is perfect for it?
Saying that someone is lucky to be good at a matchup without considering what paved the way for all of the previous stars is ignorant.
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
All I'm trying to say is Jaedong is not as accomplished in those areas as the bonjwas. Of course Jaedong is heading a good way, but he has not shown a neither one of the previous "bonjwa-status" profiles nor a new one.
Jaedong wins a lot of games, but games are being played more and more often. This in oov times was a lot harder, way harder. What did Jaedong bring to the table? his muta micro is impressive, but July and other progamers already showed that.
Jaedong is an agressive type of zerg, but we have been seeing those since who knows when.
Lol, come on. AKS, where you here 4 years ago or 5? Do you remember how hard PvZ was back then? Do you know Nal_rA is one of the reasons (along with anytime and bisu) why PvZ works "better" knowadays? Sure Nal_rA has a losing record vs SaviOr on televised games. But (and this is a big but) you are talking about SaviOr IN HIS PRIME, in his STRONGEST match up, when he was changing the way the game was played, versus nal_ra, who is a genius, but was already a pretty old player. Nal_rA even cannon rushed savior. I know the comparison seems a little off, but it would be like stoving NaDa, or beating oov with burrow.
People always complain about how the old gamers fall behind to the new macro machines, but nal_ra already had his time when savior came, and as far as i can remember, he was one of the only protoss to be a serious competition to him.
Jaedong is heading the right way in terms of achievements, and all im saying is that he's not a B yet. He might be in 1 or 2 years, or maybe in 6 months, who knows. He might win a ridiculous amount of leagues in no time, or stay with us for another 4 years (if SCII doesn't kill SC:BW :p) but right now I don't think he deserves to be on the same scale as the other 4.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
Rock, Paper, Scissors. That's the way ZvZ was viewed until Jaedong came along. He got people to realise how important is to count every single drone, to always know when to be where, when to build what, when to play aggressive when to play defensively etc. etc.
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
All I'm trying to say is Jaedong is not as accomplished in those areas as the bonjwas. Of course Jaedong is heading a good way, but he has not shown a neither one of the previous "bonjwa-status" profiles nor a new one.
Jaedong wins a lot of games, but games are being played more and more often. This in oov times was a lot harder, way harder. What did Jaedong bring to the table? his muta micro is impressive, but July and other progamers already showed that.
Jaedong is an agressive type of zerg, but we have been seeing those since who knows when.
Lol, come on. AKS, where you here 4 years ago or 5? Do you remember how hard PvZ was back then? Do you know Nal_rA is one of the reasons (along with anytime and bisu) why PvZ works "better" knowadays? Sure Nal_rA has a losing record vs SaviOr on televised games. But (and this is a big but) you are talking about SaviOr IN HIS PRIME, in his STRONGEST match up, when he was changing the way the game was played, versus nal_ra, who is a genius, but was already a pretty old player. Nal_rA even cannon rushed savior. I know the comparison seems a little off, but it would be like stoving NaDa, or beating oov with burrow.
People always complain about how the old gamers fall behind to the new macro machines, but nal_ra already had his time when savior came, and as far as i can remember, he was one of the only protoss to be a serious competition to him.
Jaedong is heading the right way in terms of achievements, and all im saying is that he's not a B yet. He might be in 1 or 2 years, or maybe in 6 months, who knows. He might win a ridiculous amount of leagues in no time, or stay with us for another 4 years (if SCII doesn't kill SC:BW :p) but right now I don't think he deserves to be on the same scale as the other 4.
Savior was a big fish in a little pond, Jaedong a shark in the ocean.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
I agree that fantasy is not the best TvZ player in the world, but i still think that he is the best terran right now to beat jaedong. Most of the other terrans always use the same builds, which doesn't work too well in a bo5 against jaedongs perfect mechanics. But fantasy with the help of boxer and iloveoov can catch jaedong off guard or play pretty standard but benefit from his image of using new builds.
Still i think jaedong is a heavy favorit to win. His mechanics always help him while fantasy might fall apart when he isn't able to close the match 3-0, because his preperation for set 4 and 5 might not be good enough.
That's a huge lead JD got! But i think its better to wait after starleagues and Proleague finals... I mean if he looses to Fantasy in OSL, Bisu wins the MSL and SKT1 wins the finals.. Would that place JD ahead or after Bisu in Kespa rankings? Does anyone know how much points a player earn in Kespa rankings for a Starleauge win anyways?
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
Rock, Paper, Scissors. That's the way ZvZ was viewed until Jaedong came along. He got people to realise how important is to count every single drone, to always know when to be where, when to build what, when to play aggressive when to play defensively etc. etc.
On August 02 2009 09:52 imperator-xy wrote: i dont feel Canata will be Bonjwa, i just feel like he isnt a normal player who plays better than the others. Canata feels special to me, NOT being the best player. you know, he was like the MSL Survivor king and then became top3 terran when he suddenly lost his first game at MSL Survivor. no i dont consider him as next Bonjwa because of that.
also i think Jaedong just made the players using their mechanics better and thinking more in zvz, not really changing the game
Rock, Paper, Scissors. That's the way ZvZ was viewed until Jaedong came along. He got people to realise how important is to count every single drone, to always know when to be where, when to build what, when to play aggressive when to play defensively etc. etc.
Shouldn't it be Shark?
If you're talking about the muta micro, yes shark invented that, avidkeystamper already answered that
On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote: sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can. Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
All I'm trying to say is Jaedong is not as accomplished in those areas as the bonjwas. Of course Jaedong is heading a good way, but he has not shown a neither one of the previous "bonjwa-status" profiles nor a new one.
Jaedong wins a lot of games, but games are being played more and more often. This in oov times was a lot harder, way harder. What did Jaedong bring to the table? his muta micro is impressive, but July and other progamers already showed that.
Jaedong is an agressive type of zerg, but we have been seeing those since who knows when.
Lol, come on. AKS, where you here 4 years ago or 5? Do you remember how hard PvZ was back then? Do you know Nal_rA is one of the reasons (along with anytime and bisu) why PvZ works "better" knowadays? Sure Nal_rA has a losing record vs SaviOr on televised games. But (and this is a big but) you are talking about SaviOr IN HIS PRIME, in his STRONGEST match up, when he was changing the way the game was played, versus nal_ra, who is a genius, but was already a pretty old player. Nal_rA even cannon rushed savior. I know the comparison seems a little off, but it would be like stoving NaDa, or beating oov with burrow.
People always complain about how the old gamers fall behind to the new macro machines, but nal_ra already had his time when savior came, and as far as i can remember, he was one of the only protoss to be a serious competition to him.
Jaedong is heading the right way in terms of achievements, and all im saying is that he's not a B yet. He might be in 1 or 2 years, or maybe in 6 months, who knows. He might win a ridiculous amount of leagues in no time, or stay with us for another 4 years (if SCII doesn't kill SC:BW :p) but right now I don't think he deserves to be on the same scale as the other 4.
Savior was a big fish in a little pond, Jaedong a shark in the ocean.
SaviOr was a Salmon, swimming against the current.
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote: Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's.
And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult.
Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol
But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5
Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL.
LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well.
He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong.
Jaedong's ZvT actually used to be extremely dominant back in late 07 and early 08. I think he had like a 80% winrate in it for a while until he started sucking later in 08 spring. Jaedong's defiler and ultraling play used to be almost unbeatable for a long time. Not sure if he ever revolutionized it, though. Until his 2h mutas vs Flash, of course, after which 2h muta became immensely popular and a part of the standard play. Before that it was considered to be kind of a cheesy allin build.
It's also silly to say that he's not revolutionized ZvZ. Jaedong playing ZvZ shows that every BO has advantages agaisnt the other BOs, for example 9pool has faster tech and more gas than 12pool and so on, and you can overcome any difficulties with proper micro and gamesense. Even today no one in the entire world understands ZvZ better than Jaedong does, and it's the single most dominant match-up in the history of starcraft, ever(over such a long sample size).
Jaedong in ZvP innovated with the 3 hatch spire and also the scourge play and popularized the build and made it pretty much the standard ZvP nowadays.
In addition to standard play, JD has innovated a lot of creative cheesy builds and refines July's aggression to another level while still possessing a world-class standard macro game. Adaptability like that is admirable. I still believe that Jaedong has the best macro out of all the Zergs out there, even though his micro is his greatest strenght.
EPT
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