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I don't get these rankings at all. How some players made their spots is beyond me.
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On August 02 2009 10:49 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 10:43 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 09:24 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 08:49 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 08:19 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan... Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title) I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face. Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's. And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult. Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5 Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL. LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well. He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals  ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong.
Actually, although Fantasy just might have the best chances against Jaedong... why does everyone seem to forget about Iris's TvZ? We all know the problem with Flash's TvZ; He's too greedy. Iris on the other hand can be aggressive and smart, as he was able to show in his 3-0 victory over Effort. Then again, he did lose to Odin, so maybe he's quite inconsistant... in any case, it's one of those 3(Flash, Iris, Fantasy), no one else. Not Light or anything silly like that, and definitely not Sea.
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On August 02 2009 10:37 IPS.ZeRo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 08:49 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 08:19 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan... Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title) I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face. Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's. And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult. I agree that fantasy is not the best TvZ player in the world, but i still think that he is the best terran right now to beat jaedong. Most of the other terrans always use the same builds, which doesn't work too well in a bo5 against jaedongs perfect mechanics. But fantasy with the help of boxer and iloveoov can catch jaedong off guard or play pretty standard but benefit from his image of using new builds. Still i think jaedong is a heavy favorit to win. His mechanics always help him while fantasy might fall apart when he isn't able to close the match 3-0, because his preperation for set 4 and 5 might not be good enough.
I think yours is a very valid view, you dont have to necessarily be the best to beat the best as great Teddy Atlas said "Styles make fights". So you may very well be true especially with these maps maybe that innovation is a key to beating the tyrant zerg. But those saying fantasy is the best TvZ are absurd and should try using sound reasoning next time.
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is awesome32278 Posts
Light is incredibly good with straight up bio play.
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On August 02 2009 10:59 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 10:49 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 10:43 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 09:24 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 08:49 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 08:19 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan... Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title) I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face. Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's. And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult. Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5 Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL. LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well. He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong. Actually, although Fantasy just might have the best chances against Jaedong... why does everyone seem to forget about Iris's TvZ? We all know the problem with Flash's TvZ; He's too greedy. Iris on the other hand can be aggressive and smart, as he was able to show in his 3-0 victory over Effort. Then again, he did lose to Odin, so maybe he's quite inconsistant... in any case, it's one of those 3(Flash, Iris, Fantasy), no one else. Not Light or anything silly like that, and definitely not Sea.
Gee not like Sea doesn't have the 2nd best winning percentage TvZ still active(hes played considerably more games than Flash. Sea has also had epic games with Jaedong, but I digress Im not saying Fantasy isnt one of the best likely terran canidates to take down Jaedong, Im saying he definitely doesn't have the best TvZ, see my post above.
On August 02 2009 11:02 IntoTheWow wrote:
Light is incredibly good with straight up bio play.
His Mech was also undefeated for quite some time, I do recall him rolling Jaedong on Medusa with mech in that OSL set I mentioned.
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On August 02 2009 11:01 mog87 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 10:37 IPS.ZeRo wrote:On August 02 2009 08:49 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 08:19 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan... Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title) I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face. Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's. And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult. I agree that fantasy is not the best TvZ player in the world, but i still think that he is the best terran right now to beat jaedong. Most of the other terrans always use the same builds, which doesn't work too well in a bo5 against jaedongs perfect mechanics. But fantasy with the help of boxer and iloveoov can catch jaedong off guard or play pretty standard but benefit from his image of using new builds. Still i think jaedong is a heavy favorit to win. His mechanics always help him while fantasy might fall apart when he isn't able to close the match 3-0, because his preperation for set 4 and 5 might not be good enough. I think yours is a very valid view, you dont have to necessarily be the best to beat the best as great Teddy Atlas said "Styles make fights". So you may very well be true especially with these maps maybe that innovation is a key to beating the tyrant zerg. But those saying fantasy is the best TvZ are absurd and should try using sound reasoning next time.
Well but what is the last time you saw Sea beat a top Zerg? I bet it was a long time ago.
Anyways, while I did say that fantasy had the best TvZ, my main point was that it's ridiculous to say JD has an easy way to his titles when he might have to face the most difficult opponents in canata fantasy bisu.
And I jumped at your post because I thought mentioning players like casy, hwasin and sea was ridiculous (as absolutely amazing as they once were).
No I am not sure that fantasy does have the best overall TvZ in the world,but I think he's pretty much a bigger thread than anyone else in a BO5.
So I think our argument is over ^^
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it seems only the zergs have been doing the moving up from this. I'm behind on the new pro maps so I would only assume it is them to blame. If not then cool zergs. This is outside counting jaedong who is a beats regardless
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On August 02 2009 10:59 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 10:49 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 10:43 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 09:24 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 08:49 mog87 wrote:On August 02 2009 08:19 7mk wrote:On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan... Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title. So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title) I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one. So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him? I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face. Fantasy the best TvZer in the world? Get the hell outta here.. Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but hes not even close to being the best TvZer seriously...you are way out of line. And I still like Free's chances vs JD. But really fantasy? Flash, Iris, Hwasin, Casy, Sea, Light and prolly a couple others have better TvZ. Fantasy has nifty builds but really his TvZ is average, and pails in comparison to his other MUs even Mind's violatile TvZ is a clear cut above Fantasy's. And LoL at people still saying Flash has no chance vs Jaedong, Flash would always have a chance but with maps like GG, and outsider things may be a bit more difficult. Oh boy this is a gonna be fun. First of all "Yea Fantasy is good in bo5 but"... well.. no but, we're in the stages where BO5 are being played so isn't this the part that matters? lol But omg - Casy?! Yeah, ACE members are really famous for going reaaaalllly far into the later stages of individual leagues. Sea, Hwasin? This is 2009, they are both not even close to the TvZ lvl they once had. Fantasy is sooo far ahead of them it's not even funny. Light? He's ok but if I remember correctly he got absolutely crushed whenever he met JD, except for the very last game in which he succeeded with his bunker rush. There's a reason why these players didn't get far in the starleagues. Free is someone who theoretically is certainly capable of beating Jaedong - but a) he would have to bring his absolute A game, which he hasn't shown for quite a while and b) he's still not gonna be able to beat JD in a bo5 Of course Flash has a chance against Jaedong, but atm he's still quite the underdog. And I say that as someone who gets reallly realllly angry when people bitch about how "bad" he is. And let's not forgot that they did already meet in this OSL. LoL, Dude fantasy's TvZ is very fallible and not even close to being the best. Sea's bionic play is beyond anything fantasy has ever shown TvZ. Light hads close matches with Jaedong especially their OSL set. Light's bio and mech and disgustingly good, sure he may lose to JD, but well he doesnt lose to lower class zergs very much, and he freakin won on Battle Royale come on. Fantasy barely even gets send out for TvZ he rides his TvP and occasional TvTs. Hes a very good series player, and has a great coaching/mentoring staff, but his TvZ shouldn't even be discussed when talking about the best. He did lose that OSL if you remember, he of course did perform very well. He did lose that OSL 2-3 to Jaedong, yeah, but all the other people you mentioned weren't even close to a final. They might perform great in pro league, but fantasy performs great when it really really matters (except for the finals ) Hence he's the smaller underdog than any other terran in a series vs Jaedong. Actually, although Fantasy just might have the best chances against Jaedong... why does everyone seem to forget about Iris's TvZ? We all know the problem with Flash's TvZ; He's too greedy. Iris on the other hand can be aggressive and smart, as he was able to show in his 3-0 victory over Effort. Then again, he did lose to Odin, so maybe he's quite inconsistant... in any case, it's one of those 3(Flash, Iris, Fantasy), no one else. Not Light or anything silly like that, and definitely not Sea.
No way in hell would Iris win a Bo5 vs JD. Iris depends too much on BO wins and early game aggressiveness. He's like the Terran version of Kwanro. His late-game mechanics suck compared to JD. Knowing this, JD would just play safe builds with a lot of scouting and take it to late game every time.
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Jaedong is looking more like the bonjwa every day.
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On August 02 2009 19:56 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Jaedong is looking more like the bonjwa every day.
Agreed
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I dunno about Iris being the terran version of kwanro...Iris late game TvZ does get a little sloppy at times, but hes still strong unlike someone like lomo. Kwanros lategame is also a bit under rated (not that it usually goes that far). That being said hed of course most likely lose to JD.
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the top 3 looks invincible
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On August 01 2009 20:29 SkelA wrote:
Damn Jaedong i cant imagine what would happen if he somehow wins osl+ msl = 5k+ points!!!
yes please yes
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I think arguing about "bonjwas" is pretty dumb
jaedong will be bonjwa when people call jaedong bonjwa, even if he goes on a 100 game winning streak from today crushing all opponents like ants.
People were still calling sAviOr bonjwa even after he lost to bisu and FBH. People will still call jaedong "not bonjwa" even if he wins both the MSL and OSL and takes the proleague trophy for his team.
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map change soon, next season it will be a zerg blood bath.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On August 02 2009 19:56 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Jaedong is looking more like the bonjwa every day.
There's 1 more opponent standing in his way: Bisu.
I'd say winning 1 more finals out of the next 2 will put him on the Bonjwa map.
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Uh.. What is Skyhigh doing down there? Below Luxury, Jangbi and Hwasin?
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over 3000? thats insane!
how is everyone supposed to catch up?
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
Confirmation of what we already knew.
And having read this thread, if I never see the word "bonjwa" again it will be too soon.
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EPT
