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On August 02 2009 04:20 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 03:42 DarkOptik wrote:On August 02 2009 01:32 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 00:25 Shikyo wrote:On August 02 2009 00:15 disciple wrote:
Well Jd has all factors on his side, starting with the maps, and the fact that he most likely will have to zvz his way to the titles. Its true that there can only be one alpha zerg at the time. During TaekBang, Bisu and Stork had to face each other in the OSL, which denied Bisu from winning everything in one season. Back then Jaedong was having a hard time, but now the momentum is totally shifted.
As a loyal fanboy I will find positives in Bisu's current performance ,although he is eclipsed by Jaedong. KTY is holding his own, if he wins the MSL given the metagame today it will be a savior-style triumph. To stop the Jaedong madness, all KeSPa has to do is to launch 2 very TvZ friendly maps, but I think this time they want JD to become the icon the e-sport is missing for so long. Well.. Heartbreak Ridge is TvZ favored. Byzantium 3 is TvZ favored. Destination is TvZ favored. Shades of Twilight is TvZ favored... I doubt that really is the problem. And it wouldn't make sense to make a completely impossible TvZ map (No gas natural, very difficult to defend third base that has the second gas), that wouldn't really be fair since even if JD won less, no other Zergs could do anything. What I was trying to say is that if Jaedong is to win everything this season it will be a result of long chain of events. Of course the main reason will be his incredible performance this season (approx 80% win rate in all 3 MU), but some other stuff to mention is that protoss suck badly, not even that, but JangBi was retarded enough to speed up the downfall process by trying to gang on Bisu. Flash sucks heavily in TvZ, and his only real rivals this season (no, EffOrt isnt one) are Bisu and fantasy, who killed each other in the MSL. Given the fact that Jaedong is not a sole dominating force in the scene (hello KTY) you have to admit it wont get any easier for JD to achieve all his hall of fame goals such as bonjwa status, golden mouse etc. If you want to win it all you have to play a lot of games ,right... Bisu was in the same situation a while back, but he was just out of his slump and no one considered his rising a bonjwa run till the point where he won 2 SLs back to back. Bisu had to face Stork in the OSL as well, and the gap between these two is considerably smaller in comparison with Jaedong and the next top zerg, which I dont even know who he is. Personally I dont want it to happen for subjective reasons but I'm sure Jaedong will win all titles this season, he has everything on his side. I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about; are you saying that the one of the reasons that Jaedong is winning everything this season is because everyone else...sucks? Your "Flash sucks heavily in TvZ" seems to be implying as such. As for "only real rivals": Bisu and Fantasy? Well, so? When you are at the very peak of the game, how many real rivals do you expect to have? Bisu's only real rival was Stork back when he was at his peak; one can argue perhaps Flash as well. I'm also not particularly sure why you are bringing up Bisu's previous foray into "bonjwa-ness"; what merits does that comparison have? Because Bisu got the necessary factors 2 season ago, to win everything all together, but he failed because he was not only one who was doing well in the current situations (6 dragons, Stork in particular). I'm not going to insult Jaedong or his fans, but by that time he had no major achievement in any of the leagues. Stork was not Bisu's only rival - fantasy was doing great and JangBi made it to the finals of both GOM and MSL. And yes, with the exception of fantasy, Iris (?!) and maybe Bisu, every non-zerg player is having a hard time in the StarLeagues or even in PL. Who is contesting Jaedong's domination this season ? Calm, type-b, or maybe Kwanro? Damn, you EffOrt. Still, while another 80% win rate monster is lurking around, how could you consider JD the undisputed best player in the world? As I said Jaedong wont have a better chance to win everything. All he has to do now is to beat fantasy and he will zvz his way to all golds His huge lead in the KeSPa rank is only a matter of calculation formula, he never got away from Bisu in the ELO ranking, and his winning percentage is not by 700 points gap better than KTY's (in fact ever since JD won Batoo he is 70% percent win, where Bisu is 73%... this is ofc irrelevant since Jaedong played almost 20 games more)
What are you talking about? Bisu had the necessary factors to win 2 seasons ago and instead decided to fail because he lost out of both leagues due to ZERG opponents in groups that he himself picked. That has nothing to do with how well the 6 dragons were doing: that had to do with his own performance.
As for whoever is contesting Jaedong's domination: it is by definition that there would be virtually no one to contest. Isn't that part of the definition of bonjwa anyways? To be so far ahead of your peers that no one can be your rival. As for his difficulty getting all golds: he has to go through Fantasy, go through Fake Yellow, go through potentially Bisu or Iris for the MSL. I'm not sure why you didn't bring that up instead of "zvz[ing] his way to all golds". A potential series against the best PvZ in the world, and a series against the best TvZ in world isn't a lot?
It is not also simply a question of ZvZing; which too isn't as easy as you make it out to be. A slip-up can easily mean a lost gold for him: just look at his series against EffOrt.
You keep playing down how easily Jaedong appears to be able to take both leagues, but if you look at his route objectively, you cannot argue that his road is any more easy than any other traditional road. Certainly, he didn't have to face all the top 10 players in a row to reach both finals, but he faced/is facing five out of the nine Power Rankers other than himself. Two of them are even the ones directly below him!
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9070 Posts
@ahole-surprise :
first of all, I die a little bit inside whenever you post, but the pain is sweet. You and guys like SuperArc are the only reason I dont like Jaedong, cause as a player, I never took anything away from him.
second, your post makes completely no sense, all you did is being completely unreasonable. Have I said somewhere that Bisu's MSL road was hard? Its completely comparable with what Jaedong is going through right now. JD is in perfect situation to win everything, and yes, its because he will have to play a lot of games in best match up. Do you see anywhere stuff like 'JD sucks cause he will win playing only zvz' ? Besides its not even his fault, I just pointed that 1 of all 8 spots of the Ro8 in the StarLeagues has been filled with protoss players, and that fantasy is the only consistent terran player in the last couple of seasons.
If Jaedong doesnt win the OSL or the MSL its most likely be another zerg player to win those. If Bisu failed in GOM and MSL, another protoss player would've had the badges... Because the zerg players are so dominant lately, Jaedong gets to play a lot of games in his best MU, during this so called bonjwa run. I dont know how to say it otherwise, from his point of view this is just a very desirable situation to be in. It would've been a whole different situation if he was in the Ro4 of both SL surrounded of terran players with maps like Tiamath and Jim Raynors Memory in the poll. Savior, the last bonjwa there will ever be, overcame unfavorable maps to achieve this title. The last time Jaedong was in similar position was in Arena MSL, where he lost the final to the onfire ForGG + bad zvt maps, and the more recent example was the taekbang season when he barely reached Ro16 of any SL...
Jaedong is the best zerg player ever, arguably the most talented progamer ever to live. He deserves everything he gets. But he is not the undisputed best at what he does, unfortunately for him it just happened that there are a couple of players that are pretty close to him in terms of skills and performance. If Jaedong ever becomes established as bonjwa by the community, it will be because the community needs to recognize another untouchable and undisputed face., not because he is that much better than the players from his generation.
To conclude this long post, I will say that as a poster and as person trying to prove his statement with valid points you are pathetic.Maybe you are a real life nice guy but when you post about Jaedong, I'm pretty sure one of your hands is in your pants, and whenever you post about some other player, that is not called Jaedong, all the other hand is typing is shit.
Really sorry that ppl had to read this last paragraph
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Finally fantasy is over Leta, yay
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On August 02 2009 06:35 Murdoink wrote:
Finally fantasy is over Leta, yay
soon he'll be over flash. The best Terran and Protoss on the same team... wow.
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It's kind of strange you write that, since I hardly post, let alone about Jaedong, and I'm pretty sure you have homosexual feelings for Bisu based on your massive post history involving Bisu LOL.
JD is in perfect situation to win everything, and yes, its because he will have to play a lot of games in best match up. Do you see anywhere stuff like 'JD sucks cause he will win playing only zvz' ?
The point is you are saying it diminishes his accomplishment somehow, that he's "lucky", that he gets to play his best matchup because his best matchup is so dominating, which is at best a pointless claim to make and coming from you it's pretty clear you just want to undermine him.
If Jaedong wins both SL in the same time frame, he will be closer to Bonjwa than Bisu ever was, and it makes no difference if he gets to play ZvZ because it's so god like (as if that's a point against him) because Bisu played creampuff opponents during his 2 SL run and he didn't even have to do it in the same time frame. I also never said Jaedong WILL be Bonjwa, just that he's as close as you can get in this age if he wins the upcoming 2 SL
Edit: Oh and by the way, I like a lot of players as much as Jaedong including Savior, JulyZerg, Flash, Nada, and Stork.
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On August 02 2009 06:09 DarkOptik wrote:
As for whoever is contesting Jaedong's domination: it is by definition that there would be virtually no one to contest. Isn't that part of the definition of bonjwa anyways? To be so far ahead of your peers that no one can be your rival.
This is the opposite of what the Bonjwas were, really. Every Bonjwa had a rival or even rivals -- they're the same rivals that come up everytime someone makes a thread about the best rivals of all time. Some are closer than others, as we all know Boxer vs Yellow isn't that close, but then you have stuff like Savior vs Nada which definitely was close, or Oov vs July, and July had Oov's number for a good while before Oov adapted. Also Oov and Reach to a lesser extent.
Being a Bonjwa isn't having no rivals, it's more overcoming all rivals, and always being the favorite, even against your rivals, to a lesser extent (which Jaedong is dangerously close to). Oov lost games, even series to his rivals, but he eventually and inevitably overcame them, and he was still the most dominant player of all time. Savior's the same, overcoming Nal_ra at first, and then Nada and Iris in easily his biggest tests as Bonjwa.
The reason Jaedong doesn't have that bonjwa aura, though, is because he didn't dominate the scene before his rivals appeared, or stepped up to challenge him. Thinking back on Oov and Savior, they both had their share of rivals, but they were already dominating the scene before they showed up(Well Nal_Ra was older than Savior but he just kind of came out of nowhere to take a surprising number of games over the Maestro). Jaedong doesn't have this luxury, as his biggest rival showed up before him (Bisu). He never had a chance to dominate the scene convincingly for a time before being challenged -- he was just always challenged.
If anything, it's kind of the other way around though. Bisu was locked for Bonjwa-hood, 2 MSLs and the dethroning of Savior? The problem was he didn't overcome his rivals. Stork, Flash, Jaedong? While he may have series wins over all of them, he's the only one out of the group without an OSL title.
If Jaedong is to be a Bonjwa, he'll be similar to Nada. Nada's biggest competition back in the day was pretty much Boxer, iirc (correct me if I'm wrong, please) and Reach to a lesser extent -- both of who came along around the same time or before him(EDIT: also Chojja. Can't believe I forgot Chojja. Dude met him in the MSL and OSL finals, how silly of me). He surpassed both of them. If Jaedong's to be a Bonjwa, it'll be in the same vein as Nada, because his rivals didn't necessarily come after him, but around the same time (flash) or before (Bisu). Bisu's missed his chance to be like Oov and Savior.
Also because he'll have a Golden Mouse, heh.
If it happens, it'll happen. It's might be a bit retrospective but Jaedong's already passed Bisu up for closest person to be a Bonjwa who isn't quiiiiite there yet.
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On August 02 2009 04:09 darktreb wrote:
Did we really need an arbitrary ranking system (made by Kespa no less) to tell us that Jaedong, the winner of the previous OSL and a semifinalist in both current Starleagues and co-winner of most games in Proleague is absolutely amazing right now? Nothing annoys me more than people catering stats, especially an arbitrary ranking system, to support their rguments.
Bonjwa is decided by watching players, not points. If JD beats Fantasy and then wins OSL (a near certainty he wins a ZvZ final) and also beats Bisu in the MSL finals (or some other player, but preferably Bisu), it will be very, very hard not to be overwhelmed by his dominance and start LEGITIMATELY using the most overused word on TL.
Certainly, if he wins both leagues, he is indisputably the greatest Zerg of all time.
If he can beat Bisu in MSL Finals (if Bisu even makes it there *facepalm*) and fantasy and win OSL (not to mention help guide his team to proleague win) there is a convincing argument for the overused word.
Pains me to say as a Bisu fan. Bisu had his couple of chances to do it... but he failed out GAH.
Hoping that fantasy takes him out in OSL, and he gets owned by calm or Bisu in the MSL... and his team loses in proleague..
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The six highest ranked toss are of course the dragons, oh and the only ranked ones.
When are we gonna see a new Protoss powerhouse?
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Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
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9070 Posts
On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded.
Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
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On August 02 2009 07:04 Simplistik wrote:The six highest ranked toss are of course the dragons, oh and the  Only ranked ones. When are we gonna see a new Protoss powerhouse?
 Violet. He's not the talk of the town anymore, since Proleague ended without KTF in the playoffs, but he's powerful and new.
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type b and canata gained 22 and 19 respectively
nice.
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is awesome32269 Posts
sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can.
Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
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On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
No. Also you are completely disregarding my post.
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On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason
I hope you mean that ahole-surprise was cherry picking and not Jaedong... cause that would be a little funny coming from a bisu fan...
Anyways I agree with dark-optic - Jaedong will have to win a BO5 against the best TvZer in the world for the OSL, and might have to face the best PvZer in the world for the MSL title.
So how on earth could anybody claim that he will have had an easy way to win his titles, should he actually be able to. (I personally strongly doubt he will be able to claim more than one title)
I mean who do you want him to face so it's a hard way? There's no other Protoss other than Bisu who would have a chance against him right now, Flash's TvZ is currently no match either, everyone seems to agree that every Zerg is no match for him and he is "lucky" everytime he faces one.
So yeah who do you want JD to face so its not easy for him?
I would even argue that Canata+Bisu+Fantasy are clearly the hardest enemies he could possibly face.
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9070 Posts
On August 02 2009 07:53 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2009 07:19 disciple wrote:On August 02 2009 07:08 ShaperofDreams wrote:
Yeah Jaedong is so lucky to be good at ZvZ lol.
Discipline did you look at the rankings? You say he is not much ahead of his rivals but he is more/equally ahead then anyone ever was.
You say that he is lucky he is facing a lot of zerg? Cause Boxer never faced zerg (3x bunker rush for starleague title anyone?), and iloveoov never got like 20 straight wins against zerg, and Bisu is no good against zerg.
It seems like most of what you say in this thread is completely unfounded. Read my entire post, not only the highlighted parts by ahole-surprise, he was cheery picking . Jaedong is facing zergs for a reason No. Also you are completely disregarding my post.
I'm not doing this, with ahole-surprise we were talking about JD/Bisu domination in the mirror match up, which is exactly relevant in the whole case. As good as your examples are, they are much more related to the state of the metagame of the time periods you are talking about. Being dominant in say tvz and or pvz (sorry) is not the same as kicking ass in zvz. If Savior had to destroy mostly zerg in his bonjwa path, he would've failed to do it, because he was not the best zvz-er even in his prime, Chojja was.
and lol after Lost Saga MSL I promised myself never to get involved in fanboyish flame wars, but I guess its just too much fun, right MrHoon ? :D
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Jaedong has 17.40% of the top 10 Kespa Points.
Savior had 20.66% of the top 10 in march of 07 Kespa points, which was when he had his biggest lead on second place.
And based off the inflation from the total top 10 point from then till now, savior would have had around 3200, which is about the same as Jaedong. And Nada who was the second place at the time would have had around 2500, which is also the same as what Bisu has. But Nada had 78.8% of Savior's points, while Bisu only has 77.8% of Jaedong's
I know these stats aren't that accurate or even say much, but its easier to compare when the numbers are relative instead of random kespa numbers.
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Kicking ass in zvz is far more impressive to me than kicking ass in zvp or zvt. Long considered to be heavily luck based, the matchup, in my opinion, has become by far the most competitive of all nine matchups in what seems to be the last 4-5 months. (Since the new maps, I guess). Numerous people overlook how much Jaedong has "revolutionized" zvz and has shown that starting off with a "disadvantagish" build order does not seal your doom at all: you can still win if you micro properly. It's the most unforgiving matchup as well; losing a single unit, be it a drone or zergling, uselessly could very easily lose you the game. (Just felt that had to be said. ZvZ is different than it used to be because of Jaedong.)
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I actually fully agree with you IntotheWow. You could take off your suit, you're post was very fair. 
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On August 02 2009 07:51 IntoTheWow wrote:
sight this is like July's last osl run all over again.
Of course it's not jaedong's fault that he has to face the people he does, but it certainly does take away the feeling that he's competing at all.
Like July, in his OSL run, he had to play only 2 terrans in it: Mind who was ugh decent at the match up, but by no means someone to be scared about. It was also at the qualifying stages, so he could just lose and still advance by other means. The other terran was fucking frozean.
From there on, there on he only had to play PvZ and ZvZ, also in a pretty nice format, since he had an all ZvZ group, then ZvP semifinals and finals. So train first ZvZ and then ZvP all you can.
Also 6 months later, july was out of the msl for losing to memory 2-0, i mean you can clearly see a difference in raw match up skill.
I'm not saying July doesn't deserve his trophy, cause he totally does. But the only real challenge he had to face was probably Troy as a map. The other thing that makes his winning "impressive" was that he had not won anything big for a long long time. In this osl jaedong lost in the group stages.
Now, Jaedong is by all means, an exceptional player. He has an impressive record and no one can deny he's a clear favourite in most if not all series, but i don't see a point of comparison between him and all the other bonjwas.
He's never been as dominant as oov, who i used to hate, cause he made Starcraft boring for me. The macro switch was hard to accept and he was unstoppable at some point it wasn't even funny to watch him rape people with a strategy that looked maybe simple from an spectators point of view.
He hasn't had many achievements for a long period of time as NaDa. Hell nada still qualifies for leagues and sometimes makes good series or runs, after so many years. Just check nada's profile, you will see each year he qualified for something and made a long run and in most years he got a trophy in his hands.
Boxer changed the way of playing the game, was as dominant as oov in tvz though he suffered in tvp and well, he's boxer. I don't think I have to argue this one?
SaviOr turned the tables for map imbalance and changed the metagame for ZvT and ZvP. He was incredibly dominant even though he had serious contestants in ZvT to go thought to win his titles. HwaSin, NaDa, even IriS to some extent. Check his league runs, the maps, his rivals, and if you have time, some of his games.
I don't think Jaedong has any rivalry that threatens hims constantly in leagues, he never was as dominant as oov and he hasnt been as accomplished as NaDa for a long time.
I'm not saying jaedong wont ever be a bonjwa, maybe he will. Maybe he will win everything left to win this years, but as of now i really don't see a point to compared him to the other B.
/antiflame suit on
You are highlighting each of the previous B's best accomplishments and then stating that Jaedong doesn't meet them. But Boxer never overcome map imbalance, Savior's not as accomplished as Nada, and NaDa was never as dominant as iloveoov, and iloveoov didn't have as long as a career as NaDa. I don't see the logic behind that. Each new bonjwa was not called that because they always bettered the older ones' accomplishment but because they brought something new to the table.
Nalra wasn't a very good rival for savior. I watched most of their games, and Ra got owned bad a lot.
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EPT
