In the spirit of the Fantasy interview, here's another one of the Daily E-Sports relay interviews. This one is older, from June 15th, and features fan favourite Savior. It is part of a series on five Zerg players: JulyZerg, Savior, Jaedong, Yarnc, and Luxury. The format is not standard, edited to be different from a typical Q&A style.
Meticulously proofread and edited by FrozenArbiter.
It's impossible to talk about Zerg as a race without mentioning Savior - his contributions to Zerg play are simply too great. He changed the paradigms of ZvT and ZvP, becoming famous as a perfect "management style" zerg. (Translator's note: "Management" is a rough translation of a term widely used in Korea to describe a style of play. It is more defensive than aggressive, more passive than active, more strategic than tactical. At its best, it means a very fluid and flexible style.)
What does Zerg mean to Savior?
Savior: Zerg is more difficult than the other races. Overall management and unit control is very difficult. Turning your larva into the wrong units can give you an instant disadvantage. You have to be more careful than with the other races.
I think good micro is a given these days, and that management ability is what swings games.
The rediscovery of mutalisks (through stacking) was very nice when it was new. But Terran and Protoss have caught up to Zerg's mutalisk micro, and I think they are on even footing now.
In one of our previous interviews with Leta and UpMagic, they mentioned that "changing the paradigm of a race is by far the most important thing," emphasizing the need to be on the frontier of strategizing. Savior agreed with this point of view, saying "You can't emphasize enough how much you need to be a paradigm shifter."
Savior: When I think about the days I crushed Terran with my three hatchery builds, I realize how important it was to be the first to change the paradigm of a matchup. When someone succesfully develops a good strategy/paradigm for a matchup, it takes much longer than one would think for other players to understand it, and remake it within their own framework.
Being the first to develop and use a strategy is to be several steps ahead of the competition. The present style of ZvP of using building five hatcheries, using scourge to counter corsairs, and then mass producing drones is the same kind of play I used when I was called "The Protoss Catastrophe."
You could understand Bisu's corsair and dark templar strategy in the same way. The reason he's been able to stay at the top so long is because he was a paradigm changer for Protoss. Other players try to imitate his play, but they simply can't copy his unique intuition and know-how.
The better player wins. If you're not the best at micro, management, multi-tasking, mini-map reactions, and so many other things, then you can't become a Bonjwa in this day and age.
Many people have blamed the recent faltering of older players, including Savior, on their inability to adjust to recent trends. Savior says this is simply not true. According to him "If you're watching recent games and trying to practice according to them, and yet cannot follow the new trends, that just says you're lazy."
As a long time progamer, and one of the very best at that, Savior had confident answers to even difficult questions. On the topic of falling performance of older progamers, he also said "You end up having to deal with things outside of gaming, and your hands just don't move like they used to."
What does he think of his own slump as of late? He has been doing well during practice, but has been unable to show his skill during televised games. Many fans have been wondering about the reason behind this.
Savior: I wouldn't be this frustrated if I was doing poorly in practice, too. I don't know the reason myself right now. True, the environment at the practice room and on TV are different. But every player faces that difference, so I don't have any excuse for that. But in any case, I think comparing oneself to other players and thinking "why can't I play as well on stage?" is just a way to ruin your confidence.
There's no easy answer. I just have to do better.
Honestly, I have a lot of things on my mind lately. I have some concerns, and some things that I have to give some careful thought. I haven't cleared everything up yet, but I think I'll be able to come to a conclusion on my dilemmas soon.
These complicated thoughts have left me mentally unstable as of late. I think this is a very bad period for me. Not just because I haven't been doing well at Starcraft. I'll tell you when I'm done resolving them. I hope that my fans won't jump to any conclusions, and I ask them to believe in me and be patient.
Troubled by so many things, Savior had an expression of determination. Having started his career at an early age, and having been active for so long now, it seemed natural that Savior would have more things to worry about than teenage players who have the luxury of thinking only about Starcraft. Perhaps that affected his decision to cut his hair short?
Said Savior "I debated whether to cut my hair or not. It was summer anyway, and I thought cutting my hair would help me work through my problems. It's not like it was because of some severe distress (laughs)."
People tend to divide Zerg into an aggresive style, including Yellow, JulyZerg, and Jaedong, and into Management style Zerg, beginning with Chojja and perfected by Savior. Aggressive zergs seem to be doing better at present, what does Savior think of this?
Savior: Both styles have their advantages and disadvantages. The reason people think aggressive style is so good these days is because Jaedong is doing so well. When I was doing well, they were saying management style was better.
The advantage aggressive zergs have is that they hold the initiative, and they can define the terms of the game up to a point. However, if their attacks are stopped without any gain, they will lose.
Management style zerg requires much more finesse in its play. You have to defend very well. Zerg isn't naturally a good race for defense, which is what makes it so difficult. Also, multi-tasking is extremely important. In general, if you don't excel at everything, you can't do well using management style zerg. But if you can play management style zerg perfectly, then you can play with an aura of invincibility, and can make your opponents feel pressure from your mere presense.
In our interview with TheMarine, we asked him about "TaekBaeng-RiSsang" (refers to Stork-Bisu // Jaedong-Flash). He expressed his concerns over zergs lack of stability, and said "Even when Jaedong plays against terran, he doesn't have that invincible feeling where you know he won't lose." According to TheMarine, Zerg would always be imperfect because of Terran.
He also said "That's why Savior's Bonjwa era was so impressive, because he would just beat terrans to death," and "to be invincible vs terran, you must play management style zerg." What is Savior's opinion?
Savior: It's very hard to have an aura of invincibility against Terran. If you play management style perfectly, it's possible.
Jaedong is extremely good at ZvT, but the reasons thoughts of "He could still lose" linger in your mind is probably because he is so aggressive. It's not just the announcers, but the players that think as they watch his games 'If terran could just stop this one attack, then he'll have the advantage.' If that's true, then Terrans should just focus on finding out how to stop those attacks, and eventually there will be a solution.
Management style zergs defend against all of Terran's attacks, and then finish the game through defiler use later, which makes them feel more stable. So I think aggressive zergs can't avoid looking risky against terran.
When we asked Savior what his dreams are, he gave us a shocking response. His goal itself seemed fairly obvious, but it was what he said afterwards that surprised us.
Savior: Right now, the thing I want the most is to win the Proleague under the CJ Entus name. Oddly enough, during the period that I was responsible for the team's performance, we could never win the Proleague trophy. It's still something I regret a lot.
On the other hand, if I had won the Proleague during the "Bonjwa" phase of my career, I might have been retired by now. I might have thought that I had achieved everything I could as a progamer, and made a rash decision. The reason I'm still playing now is because I hadn't won the Proleague.
So right now, I want to win at Gwanganri (the beach in Busan that is the location of the Proleague finals). Not somewhere else, it must be at Gwanganri. Every progamer wants to step on the stage at Gwanganri.
This season is so important to me for that reason. I truly want to win at the stage at Gwanganri.
We were shocked to hear the word 'retirement' come from Savior's mouth. Coach ForU, who was sitting next to us, was also very surprised. Looking around and seeing our reactions, Savior gave us an embarrassed laugh saying "It was just a thought I had, don't get the wrong idea," and laughed again.
Proleague asides, Savior also told us of his desire to win WCG. During the 2007 tournament, Savior suffered a 1-2 defeat at the hands of the Chinese player PJ, which was a shock to Korean fans. How did he feel then?
Savior: It was the first time in my life I had ever thought "I wish this was all just a bad dream." Even when I lost other important games, finals matches, or even after my 0-3 loss to Bisu, I had never felt that terrible.
I fell into a state of panic after the losses, and I couldn't do anything. I was so exhausted, and just wished I could get up from this dream. Thinking about it now, it still makes me feel faint.
I prepared far too little, and underestimated my opponent, which lead to my loss. If I ever get the chance to represent Korea at WCG again, I won't repeat that mistake.
Not long ago, Guillaume Patry (Note: Grrr..., Giyom, whatever) posted on a website that he had met Savior. We asked Savior the reason behind this meeting.
Savior: I didn't know he had written anything (laughs). I was meeting a hyung of mine, when he suddenly called someone on the phone and said "I've got somewhere here who can beat you at Starcraft, so hurry on out." I thought he was just joking around with a friend, but after a while Giyom came in.
That was the first time I had seen him, but he knew a lot about me. I was surprised! We competed in completely different periods, and he had already retired by the time I was starting to draw attention. I thought he wouldn't know about me at all.
I'm very cautious around strangers, but Giyom was comfortable around me and was very nice for someone I had met for the first time. The most interesting thing was that he wasn't just good at Korean, he was so fluent that I would have believed he was a Korean himself. We had no problems communicating (laughs).
Since we were on the topic of Giyom, we decided to ask him about his friends in general. We asked him about his friendships with players outside his guild, such as Hwasin, Bisu and Ruby.
Savior: Well in the case of Bisu, we dropped using respective form of Korean (Note: Korean has different forms depending on how respective one is, going from very casual to very respective. By default, one is respective with strangers of the same age, and it is a sign of familiarity and friendship to start using casual form) after we had an interview with a certain media outlet. After that, we met a lot at various tournaments, so we became more familiar with each other. As for Hwasin, I don't remember exactly when, but he approached me on battle.net one day, and I found out he was my dongsaeng (younger than him). We played a lot of games, and we got closer after that.
Still, I don't meet either of them personally or anything. It's just that I'm very particular about my friends, so I almost never talk to players on other teams. So if I just talk to someone, people think that "Oh, he must be really close with him!" (laughs).
Ruby I meet up with occasionally for fun, together with Shark. Ruby would always follow me around saying "Hyung, hyung!" so I guess we became friends naturally. Because I don't speak much, not many players approach me. But Ruby took the initiative so it worked out well. He joined Air Force Ace recently, so I hope he adjusts to that life well.
Savior has some celebrity connections outside of progaming. There was an incident where Ye Seong from Super Junior (Korean boy band) called up Savior during a radio show, and there is a picture of Savior with the actor Ryu Shi-Won. What is there to these acquaintances?
Savior: Ryu Shiwon I came to know through a hyung of mine. Ye Seong I just became friends with by random chance. As for the phone call, I was working out at the gym when he called me and said "I'm going to call you on the radio in a few minutes, so pick up!" So I ended up taking that call at the gym.
When you're a top progamer, you get a lot of opportunities to meet celebrities. Asides from getting to know them, you actually have more chances to see some celebrities than other progamers, so I think that's why you make some celebrity friends.
You can tell, since Boxer, Nada, and Bisu all have some of their own celebrity friends.
Speaking of celebrities, we simply had to come onto the topic of what his ideal woman was. Both Savior and Jaedong say the actress Lee Yeon Hee is their kind of girl. A little while ago, Jaedong revealed he had gotten a video message from Lee Yeon Hee cheering him on for the OSL final. What was Savior's reaction?
Savior: I don't have the connections to get a video message from Lee Yeon Hee. How sad.
If I get to the finals in the future, I won't stop at a video message, and I want to get a picture with her. I won't be satisfied with just a video. (laughs)
I like her because she has an image of purity, and she seems kind. A lot of celebrities are pretty, but I think I like Lee Yeon Hee in particular because of her innocent look.
And now, fan questions!
Q: Past and present, what player in CJ taunts you the most? (And I am not baiting you into saying Memory). Savior: No one really does that to me. Some players are quite insolent though. These days, SkyHigh is really a handful. On TV he manages to put on a stoic facade, but that couldn't be further from the truth. You have no idea how insolent that kid is.
Q: Memory retired a few days ago, your thoughts? Savior: I think that the fact that he was doing poorly even though he was practicing very hard, and that SkyHigh was doing so well, became a very big concern for him. He must have felt so stressed out, and feeling that his position in the team had fallen, he probably decided to retire.
It's not like we're that young, so we have to make our own decisions. He said he would quit progaming and take up school again. I really hope he does well!
Q: The MSL group selections are coming up (Note: This question is dated June 3rd, while this article was published on the 15th). I guess you'll answer this question after it's over? 1: How was the group selection ceremony (Stuff like you were happy to meet your gamer friends’ again etc lol)? 2: Are you happy with the brackets? 3: What match do you think will be the most interesting, besides your own? Sorry I had so many questions!
Savior: I wanted to play in the group with three Protoss players, but I ended up in the three Terran group instead. Protoss is a lot easier than terran, so I had hoped for that group because I really wanted to get into the top 16.
At least I only have to practice ZvT though. I'll prepare hard, and make it through. I've got some confidence, so maybe I'll get through?
Q: What does Coach Cho mean to you? How about CJ Entus? Be honest! Savior: Since I'm the only player to win a title after CJ was founded, I still think of Ma Jae Yoon (Note:himself) when I think of CJ. Through all those leagues, foreign tournaments, superfights, etc, I was always wearing the CJ uniform.
It's like a pillar (Note: the Korean connotation here is something he can really rely on for stability) for me, the team. I hope a lot of winners come from this team after me.
Q: What do you think of your many, many nicknames (Note: Story for another day, suffice to say he has a lot)? Which nicknames do you like the most, and which do you dislike?
Savior: There are a lot of other players who are doing well and get a lot of air time, so I don't know why I get so many nicknames. I manage to pick up new nicknames after single games, or even if I do something as mundane as cutting my hair.
Well, that's a good thing for me. It means that people still care that much about me. It's something to be very happy about.
Personally I like Maestro, and Ma Bonjwa the best. I think it represents who I am the best, and they are names only the best players can have.
As we end the interview, Savior asked why we included him in our series of interviews with five top zergs. We told him it was because his combined wins in individual leagues, and his performance in Proleague were the reasons. Savior replied "Honestly, I really didn't want to do today's interview."
"The relay interviews seem to revolve around players who are doing well lately, and I don't want to be interviewed with my recent performance. I wanted to do it after I had shown people something worth seeing. But as a way to talk to my fans about how I'm doing lately, I thought it was really fun and now I'm sad it's over."
Savior read over the fan questions, and saw how his fans still thought highly of him and cheered him on. "I'm a really happy progamer" he said "I have some personal issues, but I hope to get through them soon and move ahead."
To finish, we asked him for messages to the other four Zerg interviewees.
To JulyZerg: I know we're not that close, and I still use respectful form with you, but I think you're a really great player. I have real repsect for players who have won individual leagues. I hope you keep representing Zerg in the future.
To Jaedong: You're doing so well lately, and I know you're going to keep doing great. I'm learning a lot lately, so it's too bad I haven't gotten to see you that often backstage. Let's try to share strategies when we can.
To Luxury and Yarnc: We were friendly as amateurs, and I'm proud that we could become pros together. We used to talk a lot about strategies in the past, so it's unfortunate that being on different teams prevents us from meeting, talking or sharing ideas. I hope we can have some strategic exchanges later, and talk about current Zerg trends.
Excerpt from interview
Savior:
"Whatever you are doing, the finish is the most important thing.
From the position I have been put in, I will do my best to become a progamer who will be remembered fondly in his last days.
Another great interview. Love these relay interviews... Interesting analysis of aggressive vs. management type zergs. I hope sAviOr gets through his personal issues. This interview really delivered his frustration with his gameplay lately... Lee Yeon Hee... hehehe. I love her as well =)
i disagree about bisu. its not only that players can't copy his "intuition and know-how" but they simply can't copy his speed. the same with Jaedong. they have the fastest reaction / reflex speed out of anyone. even something as simple as bisu's probe stays alive far longer than other P's.
edit: finished reading, thanks for the translation! awesome interview
Thanks for the great translation Waxangel. I love when he was talking about the frustration of playing well in practice and not being able to turn it into live performances. Just goes to show how hard it really is to be a top player.
This was a beautiful interview, Savior seems to be doing okay, he will always be remembered as a top player, even if he withers out his last days, rofl at Skyhigh's insolence.
On July 29 2009 12:42 fusionsdf wrote: this interview was very depressing
yeah, i was kinda saddened after reading through some parts of it. Like how savior said he would have retired now if CJ had won PL when he was in his prime, and how he didn't want to do this interview since he wasn't doing well and also how he's dealing with some personal issues at this moment. T_T ma bonjwa, never retire!
Ok, this seals it - zerg is the hardest race. He has a lot to say about t>z and personal issues, always mentions the past. It seems he's such an unhappy person as of now.
I love these interviews, thanks a lot for translating them. BTW, the part about Savior's nicknames reminded me of this thread MrHoon made a while back, check it out if you didn't see it then.
On July 29 2009 12:42 fusionsdf wrote: this interview was very depressing
yeah, i was kinda saddened after reading through some parts of it. Like how savior said he would have retired now if CJ had won PL when he was in his prime, and how he didn't want to do this interview since he wasn't doing well and also how he's dealing with some personal issues at this moment. T_T ma bonjwa, never retire!
meh, we've been dealing with savior's slump since 2007, its not like we didn't know these things
I thought he was the one that modernized today's ZvP 5 hatch/"sauron" play, or at least popularized it.
July is the original 'sauron zerg', though he built off of Savior. He still has ZvP rivaling Jaedong's, I think.
Honestly, I don't think there are many (if any more) chances to pull off a paradigm shift. The metagame's all but perfected, and SC2 is coming out very soon. I'm a little scared for the progamers' futures - especially up-and-coming rookies.
Ha! Now CJ fans have to make a choice between Savior playing starcraft or CJ winning the proleague.
Also, I disagree with the distinction between management zergs and aggressive zergs, especially in the case of Jaedong. Jaedong has better macro than anybody right now, and has shown that he is a master of the managment style. Hell, even July won a management game against Best in that epic OSL final.
Savior interviews always make me both happy and sad. It's always nice to hear from the Maestro himself, a truly unique player who singlehandedly defined the "transition era" of SC from the Terran bonjwa days to the current "everyone is so good now" days.
On the other hand, it's sad in part because by now, most of TL sees him as this "old" player who just isn't that good anymore, and while they look at Boxer/Oov/Nada with this sort of distant "you are a legend" admiration, with Savior it seems like more of a "I hear you are a legend but I see you as a has-been". For whatever reason, even though both Nada and Savior have been mediocre pros but still definitely relevant players for the past two years, Nada is looked at as "old amazing Nada" (which is fitting) while Savior is looked at much more negatively.
I guess with Nada people were willing to let go and thus his fans never got nearly as obnoxious as us Savior fans, who all know logically that he'll never win another league and most likely won't ever be a top 15 player again, but still find it so so hard to admit.
Sometimes I just want all of TL to sit back for a second and appreciate the Maestro. Current fans of Jaedong/Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Stork/etc., when your favorite player plays, you are convinced he will win. But say the map is kind of tough, or the opponent has been doing really well lately, or it's another superstar - you have to admit that deep down you have a bit of doubt, which is only rational. And certainly fans of your favorite player's opponent can think of reasons they will win, and they will believe them too.
Now understand this ... for a significant period of time, when Savior played, there was NO doubt, NONE ever. Not just by Savior fans, but by his opponent's fans. People came up with reasons Savior could lose of course, but it was just different - they didn't really even believe themselves and what they were saying. They just wanted to support their favorite player. Deep down everyone knew, Savior was going to win.
You've heard Tasteless and Artosis say it on streams, you've heard other people say it here. When Savior was bonjwa, we all thought he would never lose. Never, ever, ever. Not just now. Ever. And if you started following SC in March of 2007 or later, then you've barely at any point experienced a taste of a fraction of what it is like for the pro scene to feel like that. Nowadays, sometimes a player briefly plays in a way that makes you think they'll definitely win any game they play today, tomorrow, and maybe next week. But we're all sure that in a month or two, losses will happen, and the cycle will continue.
With Savior ... I really truly thought ... that he'd never lose again.
sAviOr’s invincibilities in "bonjwa’s" times? He-he…
Some statistics on sAviOr’s peformance and Jaedong’s peformance in 2006 and 2007 Seasons respective.
sAviOr’s Season 2006: Total — 145 games 103 wins 42 losses (71.03%) vs T — 67 games 44 wins 23 losses (65.67%) vs P — 38 games 29 wins 9 losses (76.32%) vs Z — 40 games 30 wins 10 losses (75.00%)
Jaedong’s 2007 Season: Total — 144 games 104 wins 40 losses (72.22%) vs T — 68 games 49 wins 19 losses (72.06%) vs P — 45 games 30 wins 15 losses (66.67%) vs Z — 31 games 25 wins 6 losses (80.65%)
On July 29 2009 21:13 nonduc wrote: sAviOr’s invincibilities in "bonjwa’s" times? He-he…
Some statistics on sAviOr’s peformance and Jaedong’s peformance in 2006 and 2007 Seasons respective.
sAviOr’s Season 2006: Total — 145 games 103 wins 42 losses (71.03%) vs T — 67 games 44 wins 23 losses (65.67%) vs P — 38 games 29 wins 9 losses (76.32%) vs Z — 40 games 30 wins 10 losses (75.00%)
Jaedong’s 2007 Season: Total — 144 games 104 wins 40 losses (72.22%) vs T — 68 games 49 wins 19 losses (72.06%) vs P — 45 games 30 wins 15 losses (66.67%) vs Z — 31 games 25 wins 6 losses (80.65%)
What is the saying...there are lies, damn lies and statistics?
The reason i still see savior as a has-been and not a legend is that none of the horde of obnoxious savior fans would shut up about how he was going to destroy everyone. But just give him a year or two more, if he's still in the game competing then ill guess he will be a nada and if he retires he will be an oov. But good things come to those who wait and for me he's just a slumping once-were-good right now.
lol it's not comparable at all. It's an example of how you can twist stats to suit your purposes.
Jaedong faced a host of crappy players while Savior went up against a far higher portion of top players because he kept advancing deep in starleagues (all modern players have inflated ELOs/records because they face so many weaker players due to mass proleague).
In addition those statistics are heavily inflated because they include a ton of qualification games which again were Jaedong bashing D-level progamers in the qualifying rounds because he wasn't in any starleagues.
Savior was invincible because the only two times he ever lost a series as a Bonjwa in a starleague (out of 25 odd series played) was against Chojja in the Cyon MSL. Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc, cannot even come close to this.
"These days, SkyHigh is really a handful. On TV he manages to put on a stoic facade, but that couldn't be further from the truth. You have no idea how insolent that kid is."
On July 29 2009 22:05 nttea wrote: The reason i still see savior as a has-been and not a legend is that none of the horde of obnoxious savior fans would shut up about how he was going to destroy everyone. But just give him a year or two more, if he's still in the game competing then ill guess he will be a nada and if he retires he will be an oov. But good things come to those who wait and for me he's just a slumping once-were-good right now.
Every fan base has annoying fans, and shouting 1 line over and over with no malicious intent shouldn't tarnish a legend
(Actually, some of the intent is malicious... as a joke :D).
On July 29 2009 21:13 nonduc wrote: sAviOr’s invincibilities in "bonjwa’s" times? He-he…
Some statistics on sAviOr’s peformance and Jaedong’s peformance in 2006 and 2007 Seasons respective.
sAviOr’s Season 2006: Total — 145 games 103 wins 42 losses (71.03%) vs T — 67 games 44 wins 23 losses (65.67%) vs P — 38 games 29 wins 9 losses (76.32%) vs Z — 40 games 30 wins 10 losses (75.00%)
Jaedong’s 2007 Season: Total — 144 games 104 wins 40 losses (72.22%) vs T — 68 games 49 wins 19 losses (72.06%) vs P — 45 games 30 wins 15 losses (66.67%) vs Z — 31 games 25 wins 6 losses (80.65%)
those stats are misleading. Honestly if you were there for both periods you would realize the difference. He's not exaggerating, you really didnt expect anyone to win against savior, it didn't matter who they were or what they did.
On July 29 2009 22:23 Ver wrote: lol it's not comparable at all. It's an example of how you can twist stats to suit your purposes.
Jaedong faced a host of crappy players while Savior went up against a far higher portion of top players because he kept advancing deep in starleagues (all modern players have inflated ELOs/records because they face so many weaker players due to mass proleague).
In addition those statistics are heavily inflated because they include a ton of qualification games which again were Jaedong bashing D-level progamers in the qualifying rounds because he wasn't in any starleagues.
Savior was invincible because the only two times he ever lost a series as a Bonjwa in a starleague (out of 25 odd series played) was against Chojja in the Cyon MSL. Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc, cannot even come close to this.
LOL …"Jaedong faced a host of crappy players"… in Finals of EVER 2007 OSL and GOMTV S4 MSL… LOL Jaedong’s H2H in Season 2007 — vs Stork (10: 5–5), vs Flash (8: 4–4), vs Light (5: 3–2), vs Jangbi (5: 4–1), vs Kal (5: 4–1), etc.
I don't get why CJ doesn't play Savior. His vsP is better than any other Z's besides effort's, and better than both of the Protoss's. He just needs to avoid zvz and he can beat some nooby Terrans as well. :/
On July 30 2009 00:18 Shikyo wrote: I don't get why CJ doesn't play Savior. His vsP is better than any other Z's besides effort's, and better than both of the Protoss's. He just needs to avoid zvz and he can beat some nooby Terrans as well. :/
I wonder if they are saving him for the final? Maybe he has some special build hes preparing to snipe with? Either that or CJ just doesnt trust him enough to play.
I thought he was the one that modernized today's ZvP 5 hatch/"sauron" play, or at least popularized it.
July is the original 'sauron zerg', though he built off of Savior. He still has ZvP rivaling Jaedong's, I think.
Honestly, I don't think there are many (if any more) chances to pull off a paradigm shift. The metagame's all but perfected, and SC2 is coming out very soon. I'm a little scared for the progamers' futures - especially up-and-coming rookies.
lmao at july being the "original sauron zerg".
The original sauron zerg was a zerg that used the id sauron
On July 29 2009 22:23 Ver wrote: lol it's not comparable at all. It's an example of how you can twist stats to suit your purposes.
Jaedong faced a host of crappy players while Savior went up against a far higher portion of top players because he kept advancing deep in starleagues (all modern players have inflated ELOs/records because they face so many weaker players due to mass proleague).
In addition those statistics are heavily inflated because they include a ton of qualification games which again were Jaedong bashing D-level progamers in the qualifying rounds because he wasn't in any starleagues.
Savior was invincible because the only two times he ever lost a series as a Bonjwa in a starleague (out of 25 odd series played) was against Chojja in the Cyon MSL. Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, etc, cannot even come close to this.
LOL …"Jaedong faced a host of crappy players"… in Finals of EVER 2007 OSL and GOMTV S4 MSL… LOL Jaedong’s H2H in Season 2007 — vs Stork (10: 5–5), vs Flash (8: 4–4), vs Light (5: 3–2), vs Jangbi (5: 4–1), vs Kal (5: 4–1), etc.
Nice, keep throwing stats out there, that's great.
The best part is, 5-5 vs Stork, 4-4 vs Flash, 3-2 vs freaking Light ("rising" Terran who never did anything), 4-1 vs a crappy Jangbi at the time, 4-1 vs a Kal who just started being good (and even then to this day he has never been consistently good) ISN'T EVEN THAT IMPRESSIVE.
Savior had some strange funkiness with OSL offlines but he made the finals of SIX straight Starleagues that he played in, including five straight MSLs and he won an OSL against a bunch of Terrans on a bunch of heavily TvZ favored maps.
At one point he won what, 24 out of 25 BoX matches in Starleagues or something? Not to mention murdering special events left and right. He at one point or another crushed every potential rival out there and there was no question whatsoever that he was an entire class above every other player. Guys like you are exactly why I say that some people will just never understand what it was really like.
I wish I had lived when Savior dominated so much. Watching him almost live. I believe that it'd be so wonderful rather than being able to watch his games that were 3 years ago and without knowing the electricity felt during that time.
On July 30 2009 05:11 Batibot323 wrote: I wish I had lived when Savior dominated so much. Watching him almost live. I believe that it'd be so wonderful rather than being able to watch his games that were 3 years ago and without knowing the electricity felt during that time.
I go back often and watch Savior's run through his Starleagues. Everyone should go watch his games in Shinhan 3 OSL, his control and finesse in the finals against Nada was something that made your eyes tear up.
On July 30 2009 05:11 Batibot323 wrote: I wish I had lived when Savior dominated so much. Watching him almost live. I believe that it'd be so wonderful rather than being able to watch his games that were 3 years ago and without knowing the electricity felt during that time.
yeah. The videos just can't capture all of it. That's why I think its so easy for people who didnt watch it as it happened to think that it was like the situation we have with jaedong/flash/bisu
On July 30 2009 05:11 Batibot323 wrote: I wish I had lived when Savior dominated so much. Watching him almost live. I believe that it'd be so wonderful rather than being able to watch his games that were 3 years ago and without knowing the electricity felt during that time.
iris vs savior shin han 3 semifinals match 5. You might be able to catch a glimpse of the glory that was Savior's reign .
And I hate Jaedong. Why? His elo is only strong because like all players he gets a shitload of opportunities to play games against scrubs in PL. He looks like hes the most dominant zerg in history because of the elo but hes not even close. Hes consistent, and hes consistently good, but he has absolutely no ground to stand on compared to savior's dominance. But modern Jaedong fan boys dont know that, and they think hes the best zerg there ever was? Its disgusting. I hate Jaedong because his fans play him up to be best zerg ever, which makes him a usurper. While in reality, both Jaedong and all other pro gamers know, he doesn't really deserve the honour of even that. :\
On July 30 2009 05:11 Batibot323 wrote: I wish I had lived when Savior dominated so much. Watching him almost live. I believe that it'd be so wonderful rather than being able to watch his games that were 3 years ago and without knowing the electricity felt during that time.
iris vs savior shin han 3 semifinals match 5. You might be able to catch a glimpse of the glory that was Savior's reign .
And I hate Jaedong. Why? His elo is only strong because like all players he gets a shitload of opportunities to play games against scrubs in PL. He looks like hes the most dominant zerg in history because of the elo but hes not even close. Hes consistent, and hes consistently good, but he has absolutely no ground to stand on compared to savior's dominance. But modern Jaedong fan boys dont know that, and they think hes the best zerg there ever was? Its disgusting. I hate Jaedong because his fans play him up to be best zerg ever, which makes him a usurper. While in reality, both Jaedong and all other pro gamers know, he doesn't really deserve the honour of even that. :\
Edit: Flash pisses me off for the same reason
Don't take away from JD's accomplishments, he's playing quite well. I will agree though that he is not on par with the Maestro. I really hope to see sAviOr overcome his non-SC obstacles and make a comeback.
The reason all the Jaedong fanboys get so hyped about him being the best zerg is because alot of them weren't a part of progaming when sAviOr was taking the throne. I have two friends that I've gotten into progaming and they were like "lol heritage league? Who are these guys" and after looking at current standings of Savior, Boxer, they got all mocking. "A bunch of bad players in a league...boring"... Every single time JD, Bisu, Flash would play they would get all "_____ is about to get owned" and talk about how AMAAAAZING those three were.
I wanted to slap the shit out of them for laughing at the current stats of those playing in E-Stars. The Heritage post by riptide was amazing and I made them both read it and they humbled up and were like "whoa shit Boxer did this and that" and "sAviOr managed what?" and are now a lot more knowledgeable about progaming.
So instead of getting pissed off at the fanboys preachingt he "Jaedong best zerg ever", just laugh on the inside at how noobish they are making themselves look.
He played well in the Bonjwa-only tournamnet. And he did pretty good after that. Maybe that tournament will make him happier and get him to make a comeback?
Man, I only really started to watch a lot of starcraft during the Savior era, so I remember him better than even Boxer. Of course back then I was rooting for the other player every time he was playing, because he would always win. It was insane, I'd never seen anyone like that and haven't seen anyone that dominating since. I also stayed up and watched his finals 0-3 versus this scrub named Bisu that nobody knew anything about. What a historic day, by the third game I was yelling "build a fucking spore colony!!!" into my monitor.
Great work on the translations man! It's awesome to get to read the words of the Maestro. Even though he was before my time, I still hold great respect for him as an innovator and an achiever.
And I hate Jaedong. Why? His elo is only strong because like all players he gets a shitload of opportunities to play games against scrubs in PL. He looks like hes the most dominant zerg in history because of the elo but hes not even close. Hes consistent, and hes consistently good, but he has absolutely no ground to stand on compared to savior's dominance. But modern Jaedong fan boys dont know that, and they think hes the best zerg there ever was? Its disgusting. I hate Jaedong because his fans play him up to be best zerg ever, which makes him a usurper. While in reality, both Jaedong and all other pro gamers know, he doesn't really deserve the honour of even that. :\
Uhm... Just a thought, i could also just say: Savior could be so dominant for so long because he didn't have to play as many games as nowadays *big guns*?
Jaedong might not be the "most dominant zerg ever" but he is "the best Zerg ever" (atm, this is still can change, as long as the game is played). You see it when you watch him play -.-. I like some other Zergs more than him but it's kinda futile to say someone else is the best Zerg ever (same goes for Bisu).
And if someone argues this with July or Nada they just slap them with their golden mouses .
A lot of players were the best X ever, but if we accept that the players get better and better because the metagame gets more complicated/faster and so on, then nowadays best players are the best ever. It's like that in every sport, get over it.
On July 29 2009 12:26 Hot_Bid wrote: i disagree about bisu. its not only that players can't copy his "intuition and know-how" but they simply can't copy his speed. the same with Jaedong. they have the fastest reaction / reflex speed out of anyone. even something as simple as bisu's probe stays alive far longer than other P's.
yeah I definately agree, Bisu has SICK control matched with intuition and reaction speed, which makes him a beast especially in PvZ.
And I hate Jaedong. Why? His elo is only strong because like all players he gets a shitload of opportunities to play games against scrubs in PL. He looks like hes the most dominant zerg in history because of the elo but hes not even close. Hes consistent, and hes consistently good, but he has absolutely no ground to stand on compared to savior's dominance. But modern Jaedong fan boys dont know that, and they think hes the best zerg there ever was? Its disgusting. I hate Jaedong because his fans play him up to be best zerg ever, which makes him a usurper. While in reality, both Jaedong and all other pro gamers know, he doesn't really deserve the honour of even that. :\
Uhm... Just a thought, i could also just say: Savior could be so dominant for so long because he didn't have to play as many games as nowadays *big guns*?
Jaedong might not be the "most dominant zerg ever" but he is "the best Zerg ever" (atm, this is still can change, as long as the game is played). You see it when you watch him play -.-. I like some other Zergs more than him but it's kinda futile to say someone else is the best Zerg ever (same goes for Bisu).
And if someone argues this with July or Nada they just slap them with their golden mouses .
A lot of players were the best X ever, but if we accept that the players get better and better because the metagame gets more complicated/faster and so on, then nowadays best players are the best ever. It's like that in every sport, get over it.
People don't share the same definition of "best" is the simplest way of putting it.
Plus, when it comes to sports and politics, there will ALWAYS be someone to argue that X player is not and won't ever be the best.
On July 30 2009 05:11 Batibot323 wrote: I wish I had lived when Savior dominated so much. Watching him almost live. I believe that it'd be so wonderful rather than being able to watch his games that were 3 years ago and without knowing the electricity felt during that time.
iris vs savior shin han 3 semifinals match 5. You might be able to catch a glimpse of the glory that was Savior's reign .
And I hate Jaedong. Why? His elo is only strong because like all players he gets a shitload of opportunities to play games against scrubs in PL. He looks like hes the most dominant zerg in history because of the elo but hes not even close. Hes consistent, and hes consistently good, but he has absolutely no ground to stand on compared to savior's dominance. But modern Jaedong fan boys dont know that, and they think hes the best zerg there ever was? Its disgusting. I hate Jaedong because his fans play him up to be best zerg ever, which makes him a usurper. While in reality, both Jaedong and all other pro gamers know, he doesn't really deserve the honour of even that. :\
Edit: Flash pisses me off for the same reason
Don't take away from JD's accomplishments, he's playing quite well. I will agree though that he is not on par with the Maestro. I really hope to see sAviOr overcome his non-SC obstacles and make a comeback.
The reason all the Jaedong fanboys get so hyped about him being the best zerg is because alot of them weren't a part of progaming when sAviOr was taking the throne. I have two friends that I've gotten into progaming and they were like "lol heritage league? Who are these guys" and after looking at current standings of Savior, Boxer, they got all mocking. "A bunch of bad players in a league...boring"... Every single time JD, Bisu, Flash would play they would get all "_____ is about to get owned" and talk about how AMAAAAZING those three were.
I wanted to slap the shit out of them for laughing at the current stats of those playing in E-Stars. The Heritage post by riptide was amazing and I made them both read it and they humbled up and were like "whoa shit Boxer did this and that" and "sAviOr managed what?" and are now a lot more knowledgeable about progaming.
So instead of getting pissed off at the fanboys preachingt he "Jaedong best zerg ever", just laugh on the inside at how noobish they are making themselves look.
i started watching when savior was at his prime, and being a zerg player myself i became a fan of him. currently i am cheering for jaedong, and i see no obstacles in doing so. they're both great players, using completly different styles. and both produced and continue to produce great games to watch. just ignore all the blind fanboys, if you like watching zerg ownage, both have their way.
btw despite his fanboys, jaedong is really humble and modest about his skill. i recall when we met him at wcg08 in cologne, xeofreestyler would spell out "bonjwa" on his iphone (because none of us seemed to pronounce it right, so that jd could understand) and pointed it out to him. he was denying and gesticulating in embarresment. we told him he would win the next osl, and he said "NONONONO". well, he did win it
EPT
