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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 21 2009 09:20 Chill wrote:
Really nice article. It's unfortunate the male/female discussion somehow snuck in there because its basis is very flimsy - Specifically the last paragraph in the R.E.S.P.E.C.T. section.
I love the emotion and writing style of the entire article. It was very pleasant to read.
Thanks Chill. Looking at it now - I think I needed to word it differently to get my precise point across. Plus she is the only real evidence of this now the womens' leagues are long gone. I wish I'd been around to be able to report those. However, these are really only written for fun when I'm bored so I probably won't rewrite it now. (Heck it's why I'm graphics team and not writers LOL!)
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Calgary25998 Posts
Sorry NeverGG I ninja-added some stuff to my post, but it should be evident anyways.
It really sucks (and 99% of people, including myself, are going to fall into this trap) that when everything is really nice except one thing, it get's the focus. There's a huge disparity in my post when I loved the article but spent the majority discussing what I didn't like.
So I want to emphasize that I really enjoyed this article a lot. I specifically like the emotion I can feel behind the words. It really feels like an article from someone invested into it, rather than someone largely removed from their words. THANKS!
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
Read the line under this sentence.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 21 2009 09:30 Chill wrote:
Sorry NeverGG I ninja-added some stuff to my post, but it should be evident anyways.
It really sucks (and 99% of people, including myself, are going to fall into this trap) that when everything is really nice except one thing, it get's the focus. There's a huge disparity in my post when I loved the article but spent the majority discussing what I didn't like.
So I want to emphasize that I really enjoyed this article a lot. I specifically like the emotion I can feel behind the words. It really feels like an article from someone invested into it, rather than someone largely removed from their words. THANKS!
I can understand where you're coming from on that edit. I don't agree with forcibly adding women to StarCraft upon a professional level myself. I think I'm wishing more for a female gamer to be able to rise up through the ranks upon the strength of her performances alone and to not be judged via her looks. It'd be awesome to see a woman version of Flash or Jaedong tearing up the scene and making some waves (it'd definitely be something different for once.)
@poster below: I still laugh every time I see that ID. It's almost as funny as Only.Hubert and By.Sheep.
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I want to buy an STX shirt! :\
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no. Foreigners will never catch up to koreans. Unless they're enough of a loser to go to korea and play (idra) or create a starcraft league in the US that people would watch (noone would watch)
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Starcraft is the most competitive game in history. Making women a bigger role of sc is idiotic. We are not all created equal. If women gamers do not have the drive, or the capacity to play at the required level, they will not be there. Affirmative action results in the lowering of standards [EDIT: I just read the post above mine, and it seems that was never your intent. I'll keep that in there anyways because I don't like deleting my thoughts, but I apologize for arguing against something you never specifically stated/alluded to.]. Only the competent men, only the competent women, must be on a team. Tossgirl is horrible. She remains on stx because she refuses to retire, and her looks can be abused for more money. Of course they are going to do it. It's not sexist, or unfair. Many veteran players remain active only in name, and appear only to boost ratings temporarily. The way I see it, females getting a bigger role in sc is neither a positive or a negative, its simply a potential. If they strive hard enough and play hard enough, maybe they can go somewhere [though tests have shown men are better at conceptualization and visual based information, and therefore have an inherent advantage in, well, video games and coordination, so dont expect parity.]
I agree with the rest of the article.
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To be honest I don't think ToSsgirl is the right barometer in looking at a female pro gamer rising to the top. Even though she is the only female in the SCBW scene, she isn't conventional in the least.
Would gender really matter in SCBW if you were good? I didn't even think ToSsgirl lived in the STX house, how can you even compare her to male pro gamers when she doesn't even meet one of the simplest criteria for living a pro gamers life?
Not to take anything away from her, because shes a great player in the grand scheme of starcraft and being great takes alot of time and dedication.
The point is, if you look at the SCBW pro scene in a vacuum, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the lesser players don't make it to JD/Bisu/Flash/"x" level. (substitute x with the good player that would not make you angry at me)
Great read btw. I'm just giving my 2c, I read it as more of a stream of consciousness anyway, not trying to debate!
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Great article! Thank you!
I agree about Tossgirl , but I also accept that's sadly how society works 
2 Questions:
First question: Were you present at the EVER2008 finals ? I think I saw you in the crowd at about 08:52~54 in game2 
Second question: Was that the biggest attendance at a OSL final ? If not, which one has there been more at, and do you know how many ?
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Great article!
As regards the question of the sex differences - how many (I assume some) female gamers compete in things like the Courage tournaments, and how well do they do? I don't know if there's any way you would know this, but it would be an interesting thing to look at.
Also July is awesome.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
great article
but uh tossgirl isn't pigeonholed because she's a woman, she's pigeonholed because she is an awful player and must be pigeonholed so to maintain any relevance
if she was a good player, things wouldn't be this way. she's only just recently started practicing anywhere near what her teammates do.
more specifically i mean to say it's not a lack of respect because she's a woman, it's a lack of respect because she's not good at starcraft. there is a very large difference between the two and the distinction must be made. there is virtually no avenue with a greater element of creating your own success than professional starcraft. the question "will women gamers ever receive the same respect as their male counterparts" is a little absurd to me and is way off the mark
i think you're making a very unfair connection while talking about her being 'paraded around' in tight clothes
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Valhalla18444 Posts
also could you stop threatening to stop doing what you do every time someone says something you don't like
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On May 21 2009 09:20 Chill wrote:
Really nice article. It's unfortunate the male/female discussion somehow snuck in there because its basis is very flimsy - Specifically the last paragraph in the R.E.S.P.E.C.T. section. Forcibly adding women to StarCraft would add literally nothing to the competition or excitement. The game quality would decrease. In fact your suggestion of adding women to StarCraft defeats the goal of them being treated like equals. The situation we have now treats them as equals - if you suck you don't play. If Tossgirl wants to play, she should not suck. If getting paid a salary is making her suck, she should refuse payment in order to train. Clearly this is a futile, terrible idea and everyone knows it, so what's the point in discussing some fairytale situation where she became an A-team member?
I love the emotion and writing style of the entire article. It was very pleasant to read.
I find the whole issue a little awkward, I would agree that we treat them as equals at the moment, but I think the issue is self (un)fulfilling, you can't really expect for example a completely mixed starcraft scene to grow out of the current one now in a month or so, Its an issue of players, I can't name a single other female starcraft player other than tossgirl, and there needs to be a continuing cycle of players joining because they see players playing and perhaps having more female leagues on TV would A) There would have to be a decent number of girls in the league in order for it to work and B) hopefully there would become a point where such a league would gain its own momentum and it could attract women to the game at the same rate that it losses them.
But clearly, that has been done before, so I can't help but think that part of the problem is the perception of computer games as "boys toys"
All in all, I think its much more likely that the gender imbalance in starcraft comes down to a lack of motivation, and the lack of any real players, rather than any qualities in men that make them better at starcraft than women,
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Great post, thanks.
The title: "coming out of the closet" followed by Jaedong? That would be funny if it were a pic of Bisu, but Jaedong? Naah the joke is lost there.
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Nice article, NeverGG. However, I find it interesting that you did not mention one of the greatest hope`s/dream`s of the non-Korean crowds and that is to see another foreigner be successful on the Korean scene. Ever since  Grrrr... retired from progaming, there has not been a single foreigner that has managed to match his success. That is the reason why so many people pinned their hopes on  IdrA, since he was (and still is) so successful on the foreigner scene.
However, considering IdrA`s rather abysmal success so far and the ever closer release of StarCraft II, that dream is becoming increasingly unlikely. As such, unless some Chinese player (Chinese are non-Koreans a.k.a foreigners as well >looks Artosis`s way< ) starts beating top Koreans on ICCup left and right and gets invited, it seems like we will most likely have to wait for StarCraft II to get our next Grrrr...
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I hear what you saying bout tossgirl but do you see any other player of her skill level getting that level of attention, shes really lucky if you ask me.
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i want title matches to be like boxing, you win the osl, you wait until the next person wins and then you challenge for the crown, kind of like the gomtv thing.
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On May 25 2009 12:00 Kuja900 wrote:
I hear what you saying bout tossgirl but do you see any other player of her skill level getting that level of attention, shes really lucky if you ask me.
That's a bit debatable. I wouldn't swallow to my pride to be kept in a proteam as "eye candy" becase my skill is not good enough to actually be there. Because that's the truth, she's there to create an image.
Oh and btw, great article NeverGG, it was an enjoyable read.
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United States12607 Posts
I agree with FakeSteve on this article's treatment of ToSsGirl.
Some may argue that she has no place in the progaming scene, but unfortunately her role is largely defined by two basic aspects; her gender and her perceived attractiveness. Pigeon-holed by the very company she works for, Jisoo is now regarded as not only a player with no chance to advance beyond the ranks of the middling male progamers, but also as so-called 'eye-candy.' Dressed in mini skirts and tight fitting tops she fulfills the same role as the Star League booth girls.
As Chill mentioned, this paragraph is particularly objectionable. How can you say Tossgirl is "pigeonholed" when she voluntarily works for STX SouL? Also, you seem to be suggesting that it's somehow unfair that Tossgirl is seen as "a player with no chance to advance beyond the ranks of the middling male progamers" (the male distinction is completely unnecessary here). This is professional gaming! There are scores of gamers who we've seen flounder in their few broadcast appearances and have dismissed as second-tier players - why are you trying to make this perception seem unjust in Tossgirl's case?
The bottom line is that, as FS pointed out, Tossgirl gets no respect because she is not good at StarCraft (relatively speaking, of course). In fact the only reason she remains relevant in the SC scene is because she has the advantage of being a woman (and thus a unique spokesperson), so to paint her position as some sort of male-dominance-induced injustice is preposterous.
The system might do itself and the spirits of those women gamers who look up to their professional counterparts if it stopped looking for 'pretty' or 'bankable.' and started seeking out 'talent' and 'motivation' instead.
Are you suggesting that StarCraft teams are recruiting pretty female gamers? I certainly don't see any evidence for this. The professional StarCraft scene is one of the most brutally efficient meritocracies I've ever seen in action: talent and motivation are what make stars, bring in money, and inspire teams' scouts. Because we rarely even see progamers on camera (and the game in its "purest" multiplayer form is played totally anonymously), skill is much more important in SC (versus "marketability") than it is in any sport, for example. It's borderline absurd to imply that professional SC rewards "pretty and bankable" over "talent and motivation".
Will women gamers ever recieve as much respect as their male counterparts?
This question is totally off the mark. As I've already mentioned, Tossgirl gets little respect because she is not good at SC, not because she is a woman. To show that there is somehow an anti-female bias amongst SC fans, you would need to find male players with Tossgirl's accomplishments who are more respected. Good luck...I think based on the results of this search you'd have to conclude that SC fans have an anti-male bias (for supporting Tossgirl despite her mediocre record).
The non-Tossgirl elements of this bit were cool, though. Thanks for those, NeverGG, and as always keep up the awesome work with your photography.
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EPT
