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On May 20 2009 21:36 FieryBalrog wrote:
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal?
OP is owned  (sry, mean)
tossgirl is given power by the same thing that "pideon holes" her, viz. her plastic face, and nice skin. celebrities are objects. they are PR reps for people selling shit. you think boxer is any less "discriminated" against than toss girl? really nice article. but the toss girl section was self-defeating. don't make tossgirl or anyway a victim. you claim tossgirl should function as a player and not as "eye-candy". this is your subjective opinion. how you think toss girl should function is your opinion. tossgirl can and only functions as she functions...which is as an ambassador to SC or in other words "eye-candy". in chinese she is called the Empress (女皇). This is empowering. Why can't women celebrate their raw attractiveness? She sucks at SC, everyone knows that. But she is on a programing team and serves as a PR agent for said team and furthermore for SC as a whole. Savior is cool but if you see his face on a CJ ad and you dont know who he is you prolly arent gonna buy that bag of chips. but if tossgirl reps your stuff.. bam.. chi ching! Tasteless and SDM use tossgirl as the banner for their tournament. she's not in the tournament, so what... it's good for business. don't be so naive. and dont make people victims.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 20 2009 22:23 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 21:36 FieryBalrog wrote:
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal? OP is owned. tossgirl is given power by the same thing that "pideon holes" her, viz. her plastic face, and nice skin. celebrities are objects. they are PR reps for people selling shit. you think boxer is any less "discriminated" against than toss girl? really nice article. but the toss girl section was self-defeating. don't make tossgirl or anyway a victim.
Uh why the hell would I be 'owned' by someone having a different opinion to my article? I'm glad it's promoting discussion. (I guess if I'm so owned then I should just stop working so hard to provide insider info from Korean hm?)
I'm not looking to call her a victim - good luck to her if she's happy with being the laughing stock of a large majority of domestic and foreign fans (heck she probably makes a good wage off of it.) She's just the most visible example of how imbalanced promotion can be for female gamers. There are plenty of progaming women in other esports who get on just fine without having to be marketed in mini skirts.
The imbalance is what I have a problem with - even with the most attractive male gamers (Bisu/Hwasin/Boxer etc.) fans/management take the time to highlight all the aspects of their 'celebrity' including their gaming abilities - but these days with ToSsgirl that doesn't seem to be the case. It's just a shame because she could be used to promote gaming in a much more rounded and interesting way, but sadly she's not.
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I hope to see July come back to his peak, as well as savior. Really i just want to see some dominant Zergs (and this year seems to be the best one in a long time for that). Not only that but i also wish to see a competitive female figure in the genre, even though she'll most likely resemble  HoeJJa or July (read: fat and ugly)
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On May 20 2009 22:17 Spanxxx wrote:
I hope fbh continues to lose to the point of getting demoted to b-team.
Ahaha.
I really hope SaviOr makes a comeback. 
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ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of. the westerners who ridicule her.. who cares? that is because they are confusing her with a mere progamer. she is much more than a struggling player. you think STX keeps her around hoping that one day she can finally have a breakthrough? she is on stx for the same reason boxer is still on skt1 and why idra is on CJ... 50% skill 50% amazing PR.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and attractive charms which can come from either previously destroying everyone (e.g. boxer, savior, july, ooV) or by an attractive woman amongst nerds (e.g. tossgirl).
if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora)
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On May 20 2009 16:14 NeverGG wrote:
Will Scaramanga ever get himself a KTF t-shirt?
oh god i hope so
great article neggy
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 20 2009 22:38 omninmo wrote:
ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and charm (e.g. boxer and tossgirl). if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora)
Having met her and seen her at several events during my photography and journalistic work now as well as watched her on television here I'm pretty sure it's not unfounded. I'm also friends with a large number of the STX Soul fanclub - through a senior member who used to be my partner working at Yongsan and LOOX (and who is a fluent English speaker.) who has told me *exactly* what the majority of the Korean SC fans she knows online and offline think of ToSsgirl. It's not really a positive response even if they are only discussing her alleged love life most of the time.
Oh and will you refrain from saying I'm making her a victim (it's as annoying a generalisation about my intentions for the article as it is you claiming to know precisely what every Korean fan thinks of her.) - I don't even like her as a gamer and I have no intentions of saying she is blameless for the way she is promoted. It is her choice to endorse Esports in the way that she does (along with that of STX and the team.)
If we're going to sit here and nitpick my exact sentence construction all night then I'll stop making the effort to write articles in the future.
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On May 20 2009 22:46 NeverGG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 22:38 omninmo wrote:
ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and charm (e.g. boxer and tossgirl). if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora) Having met her and seen her at several events during my photography and journalistic work now as well as watched her on television here I'm pretty sure it's not unfounded. I'm also friends with a large number of the STX Soul fanclub - through a senior member who used to be my partner working at Yongsan and LOOX (and who is a fluent English speaker.) who has told me *exactly* what the majority of the Korean SC fans she knows online and offline think of ToSsgirl. It's not really a positive response even if they are only discussing her alleged love life most of the time. Oh and will you refrain from saying I'm making her a victim (it's as annoying a generalisation about my intentions for the article as it is you claiming to know precisely what every Korean fan thinks of her.) - I don't even like her as a gamer and I have no intentions of saying she is blameless for the way she is promoted. It is her choice to endorse Esports in the way that she does (along with that of STX and the team.) If we're going to sit here and nitpick my exact sentence construction all night then I'll stop making the effort to write articles in the future.
no, your article is great. please continue. really, i think you do great work. but keep the pity out of it. be a journalist and not a columnist. she is just trying to get by like all of us. there is no place in PL for a player of her calibre and yet she is still around. Hmmm, do we need to hypothesize why? furthermore, do we need to judge her? finally, explain how her current appeal is different from boxer or savior's? boxer is exploited by skt1 more than tossgirl is. you can argue that boxer "deserves" to be on camera at every commercial break even though he is B team nobody in terms of skillz but the fact is that he is being "used" just as much as tossgirl.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 20 2009 22:50 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 22:46 NeverGG wrote:On May 20 2009 22:38 omninmo wrote:
ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and charm (e.g. boxer and tossgirl). if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora) Having met her and seen her at several events during my photography and journalistic work now as well as watched her on television here I'm pretty sure it's not unfounded. I'm also friends with a large number of the STX Soul fanclub - through a senior member who used to be my partner working at Yongsan and LOOX (and who is a fluent English speaker.) who has told me *exactly* what the majority of the Korean SC fans she knows online and offline think of ToSsgirl. It's not really a positive response even if they are only discussing her alleged love life most of the time. Oh and will you refrain from saying I'm making her a victim (it's as annoying a generalisation about my intentions for the article as it is you claiming to know precisely what every Korean fan thinks of her.) - I don't even like her as a gamer and I have no intentions of saying she is blameless for the way she is promoted. It is her choice to endorse Esports in the way that she does (along with that of STX and the team.) If we're going to sit here and nitpick my exact sentence construction all night then I'll stop making the effort to write articles in the future. no, your article is great. please continue. really, i think you do great work. but keep the pity out of it. be a journalist and not a columnist.
It's difficult not to inject emotion into writing when you're not discussing concepts with a solid 'answer' such as analysing gameplay or calculating statistics. So I'm going to go right ahead and refuse idea until I write an article that requires a lack of opinion.
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ok, sorry i railroaded your column. i was just trying to help.
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great article! 10/10 (if i could rate it)
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tossgirl T_T i respect her so much i wish she can win more games.
MJY and boxer july those were really favorite legend along wit nalra oov nada and all the other greats
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Why so harsh on tossgirl?
edit: lol, I see this has been discussed right above me.
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Nice read but leave tossgirl alone I love her 
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal?
It wouldn't take the marketing to get her noticed she would be treated differently just because she is female no matter whether that is her marketing ploy or not. It may be a blessing and a curse that as a female gamer people take interest not only in your game. There are people that dislike her just because they don't find her attractive. I really think it is unfair to say that she is lucky to be have the opportunity to market being a girl to gain fame above her rank.
Also, other gamers with abysmal win ratios have fans.
Question time!
Will women gamers ever recieve as much respect as their male counterparts?
~ When they are as competitive as the males  I don't think it is so much a lack of respect as just being treated differently; which can be a benefit or disadvantage depending on the situation. It would be interesting to see, though, how many people would choose an unattractive girl ranked #1 in KeSPA as their favourite player over players like JaeDong/Bisu/FlaSh.
Can foreign fans bridge the gap between Korea and themselves?
~ Yes, if not with SC then with future games.
Who (if anyone) will make a return in 2010?
~ YellOw ofc.
Will Scaramanga ever get himself a KTF t-shirt?
~ If I have any say in it
What changes/hopes/wishes do you hold for StarCraft (and esports in general.) in the future?
~ That SC remains alive, I get very sentimental.
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I hope people will continue playing SC: BW after SC2 comes out
I hope Jaedong becomes the next bonjwa
I hope I will be able to buy Oz merchandise
I hope Reach makes a comeback
Great read btw
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On May 20 2009 22:30 NeverGG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 22:23 omninmo wrote:On May 20 2009 21:36 FieryBalrog wrote:
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal? OP is owned. tossgirl is given power by the same thing that "pideon holes" her, viz. her plastic face, and nice skin. celebrities are objects. they are PR reps for people selling shit. you think boxer is any less "discriminated" against than toss girl? really nice article. but the toss girl section was self-defeating. don't make tossgirl or anyway a victim. Uh why the hell would I be 'owned' by someone having a different opinion to my article? I'm glad it's promoting discussion. (I guess if I'm so owned then I should just stop working so hard to provide insider info from Korean hm?) I'm not looking to call her a victim - good luck to her if she's happy with being the laughing stock of a large majority of domestic and foreign fans (heck she probably makes a good wage off of it.) She's just the most visible example of how imbalanced promotion can be for female gamers. There are plenty of progaming women in other esports who get on just fine without having to be marketed in mini skirts. The imbalance is what I have a problem with - even with the most attractive male gamers (Bisu/Hwasin/Boxer etc.) fans/management take the time to highlight all the aspects of their 'celebrity' including their gaming abilities - but these days with ToSsgirl that doesn't seem to be the case. It's just a shame because she could be used to promote gaming in a much more rounded and interesting way, but sadly she's not.
She promotes herself that way, it was a decision by her and her managers, unless you have some evidence that she was secretly coerced somehow. It makes perfect sense, too, since how is tossgirl supposed to play up her gaming abilities when she can barely beat other progamers? She naturally plays up the aspects which she can to gain fame.
So how is that a lack of respect for her again? I have no disrespect towards her for marketing herself this way, she's a big girl and can do whatever she wants, but I absolutely can't agree with your pretension that now society is somehow victimizing her. Its a typical feminist trope to semantically shift the burden of responsibility for "unwanted" female actions to structural forces no matter the situation.
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That was a fun and interesting read! 
Some things I wish for the future of sc would be:
- Kespa relaxing their regulations. Seriously, seeing players getting disqualified over accidentally typing "a" is ridiculous.
- ACE continuing to do well in PL and YellOw winning some games
- A Bisu vs Jaedong OSL final!
- Savior doing better and getting sent out to play more often (I like the rookie cj players but i miss watching the veterans )
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Calgary26003 Posts
Really nice article. It's unfortunate the male/female discussion somehow snuck in there because its basis is very flimsy - Specifically the last paragraph in the R.E.S.P.E.C.T. section. Forcibly adding women to StarCraft would add literally nothing to the competition or excitement. The game quality would decrease. In fact your suggestion of adding women to StarCraft defeats the goal of them being treated like equals. The situation we have now treats them as equals - if you suck you don't play. If Tossgirl wants to play, she should not suck. If getting paid a salary is making her suck, she should refuse payment in order to train. Clearly this is a futile, terrible idea and everyone knows it, so what's the point in discussing some fairytale situation where she became an A-team member?
I love the emotion and writing style of the entire article. It was very pleasant to read.
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EPT
