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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
Hopes and Dreams:
Previous articles have discussed the fundamental problems concerning E-sports itself and the governing bodies which dictate its behaviour as a whole. However, there hasn't been a wide-spread discussion in relation to (selected) dream scenarios as a domestic/foreign community. Those wishes that may never be granted (or already have been) , but which fill the hearts of the overseas (and Korean) fans with pride, hope and sometimes even amusement.
~ Bringing back the Heroes. ~
~ JulyZerg - a return to form or simply good timing? ~
When JulyZerg (STX Soul's Park Seungjoon.) steam-rollered over Do Jaewook (BeSt of SKT1.) in a demolishing charge during the finals of the EVER OSL one of these dreams was realised for a wide spectrum of fans within Korea and watching from afar.
JulyZerg is a long-standing figure in the progaming scene. He has won five major titles
(iTV, Gillette, KT-KTF, IOPS, EVER 2005 and EVER 2008.) and his influence upon the way Zerg is used as a race in the current gaming climate is undeniable. He's been through his fair share of drama and changes including three transfers in recent memory Now he has finally joined STX Soul where he has settled in amidst a flurry of young players and fellow veterans like Jin Yeongsu aka. Hwasin.
The queue for the EVER OSL finals had to be seen to be believed. It stretched all the way around the central Seoul venue of SETEC (a massive convention centre and arena.) This stage was truly befitting of such a potentially glorious come-back for a much-loved player whose progress had been as subdued as several others of his caliber and vintage for a significant time before he climbed the ranks of the EVER qualifications. SETEC provided the platform for his return in a way the Incruit OSL's COEX hall failed to hail Stork's (Song Byungoo) eventual OSL gold success.
Older fans mingled with teenagers and the support for Do Jaewook paled in comparison to the overwhelming enthusiasm (and noise.) of the fervent STX Soul fans who turned out in their droves to cheer him on to a decisive victory.
Regardless of how individual games could be debated and brackets deemed a breeze for certain experienced players such as JulyZerg it is hard to argue with the fact that seeing a classic name rise from the ashes to claim yet another title (as well as the coveted Golden Mouse.) brought the Esports scene to a stand still out of respect and in many cases, surprise.
As fun as it can be to root for dominant forces within Korean StarCraft such as current kings of the scene Lee Jaedong (Jaedong) Kim Taekyong (Bisu.) and Lee Youngho (Flash.) Those who have been involved in the Korean esports scene since its inception cannot help, but feel a special warmth towards certain veteran players who have continued to game when others might have graduated on to commentating (such as TheMarine or Garimto.) or begun their mandatory military service.
For these fans (and they are not slim in numbers upon either side of the pond.) the chance to see their older favourites revitalise themselves and claim another title is a compelling thought. For example the pure fervor of Lim Yohwan's devotees when he returned to the SKT1 fold and resumed his daily life as a progamer was nothing short of overwhelming. His performance (and that of the squad over all.) might have been lacking during his stint with AirForce ACE. However, nothing seemed capable of denting the loyalty felt by those who witnessed Boxer at his peak and those who have since begun to look back at the vast shadow he has cast over the world of StarCraft.
Ma Jaeyoon (SaviOr) is another player who both needs no introduction and also perfectly illustrates an example of this long-standing community based purely upon faith (despite what hard results might suggest.) Famously, the Maestro was toppled from his throne by Kim Taekyong (Bisu.) who heralded the era of Taekbang along with fellow Protoss Song Byungoo. Despite his struggles to overcome extroverted rival Lee Sungeun (Firebathero.) and his lacklustre proleague and individual standings he still draws a crowd only rivaled by that of the Emperor himself.
~ SaviOr: We still believe. ~
Korean fans still believe and within the foreign community, Jaeyoon's statement about 'Destroying everyone in 2009.' has become a slogan, a catchphrase and a mantra for all those who still play, watch and learn under his banner.
The idea of seeing a veteran once again reclaim their former glories appears to hold the same coveted position as that of watching a fresh hot-shot unexpectedly tearing down the competition.
~ A little More Conversation. ~
The communities within both parts of the world seem to be divided over the issue of how to fundamentally approach the way in which live events are run. There are those who long for the days when players cried with happiness when they clasped an important victory, hung their heads low when everything went wrong and even engaged in some of the most random and comical behaviour seen on the MBC and OGN channels.
Elements of these times still remain and some have been improved upon for the fans who enjoy the spectacle and experience of attending live StarCraft. The mascots of KTF and SKT1, the ceremonies wheel and the competitions to win prizes which are becoming more and more frequent in relation to teams such as Hwaseung OZ.
Others have been restricted to the point where controversy arises and the whole business of professional gaming in Korea appears to be just that, business and commerce without heart or passion. In game chat, mistakes when typing and the ceremony restrictions have caused uproar which implies that the majority of fans are longing for a bygone era in gaming.
~ R.E.S.P.E.C.T ~
StarCraft is an esport and a community largely dominated by men. There have been women's leagues during the past, but due to a lack of interest and a general lack of female gamers willing to throw away everything to compete they eventually found themselves lumbered with cancellation.
A single woman remains as the lone figure of female (StarCraft) progaming, Seo Jisoo (ToSsgirl.) of STX Soul. Some may argue that she has no place in the progaming scene, but unfortunately her role is largely defined by two basic aspects; her gender and her perceived attractiveness. Pigeon-holed by the very company she works for, Jisoo is now regarded as not only a player with no chance to advance beyond the ranks of the middling male progamers, but also as so-called 'eye-candy.' Dressed in mini skirts and tight fitting tops she fulfills the same role as the Star League booth girls.
~ ToSsgirl waits for her turn at GOM TV. ~
However, there is a vital difference - her function within StarCraft *should* be that of a player - someone who is there to entertain at the same time she participates and strives for victories. The boothgirls upon the other hand are there as decoration and (unlike several other Esports which use women as a marketing tool.) they serve no other purpose.
ToSsgirl has recently been announced as a member of the 'Old Stars' tournament at the impending EStars in Seoul event. When placed next to such legendary names as Kangmin (Nal_ra) and Choi Yeongseung (Iloveoov) a significant amount of fans asked the question 'Why is she regarded as a star?' (let alone one of similar calibre as the others gathered for the event.)
Yes, she is the most competant female gamer of her time, having been dominant in her respective women's leagues. However, how many people actually remember this when she is constantly paraded around in visually appealing clothing and trotted out to do more promotional work that she ever does actual gaming?
This is not to say that her image should be with-held in its entirety. However, there doesn't seem to be (as with many elements of Korean progaming.) a balance between illustrating a positive ideal of female gamers for other women to aspire to and simply marketing her as the 'sexy' aspect of the team and nothing more.
Maybe, StarCraft needs to pay more attention to other increasingly visible Esports such as Dungeon & Fighter League which hosts more female gamers (such as the second-in-command of the team 20:3) since its fourth season than ever before and FPS gaming where women gamers are mandatory additions during Special Force Leagues and do not have to rely upon skimpy clothing for live events. The system might do itself and the spirits of those women gamers who look up to their professional counterparts if it stopped looking for 'pretty' or 'bankable.' and started seeking out 'talent' and 'motivation' instead.
~ Coming out of the Closet. ~
This issue mainly affects the foreign community. However, even for those living within Korea it can pose an annoying and tedious barrier as well. It's an idea that has been raised time and time again by forums and individuals; the lack of access to merchandise.
~ Lee Jaedong advertises shoes worn by the Hwaseung team at Winners League. ~
Teams including CJ Entus are slowly cottoning on to the outside demand for progaming clothing, equipment and general merchandise. However, the vast majority of fans still have to get their goods via the third party access of a Korean connection.
Emulating ones heroes or simply demonstrating casual allegiance has never been so difficult.
The only team with a physical shop is that of MBC Heroes (which is located in the horrific design disaster that is LOOX.) Unfortunately due to under-staffing it is closed more often than it is ever open at this current time. The only other channels through which to aquire merchandise are by utilising the seasonal sales posted upon Korean gaming site Fomos (most of which require the wiring of currency and a Korean bank account.)
This presents a depressing dilemma for fans everywhere. None more so than those who have no access to the Korean social security numbers required to register upon the team sites or those who cannot journey to the Hero Centre in person.
The situation appears to be changing little by little - with the opening of the CJ online shop and the generous actions of various Korean fans who have set aside their own time and money to provide this much desired method to purchase Korean goods. Also eSTRO now hosts an English language sign up section for their official site which is another step in the right direction when it comes to bridging the divisions between the two communities and the teams themselves.
~ The Future? ~
Will women gamers ever recieve as much respect as their male counterparts?
Can foreign fans bridge the gap between Korea and themselves?
Who (if anyone) will make a return in 2010?
Will Scaramanga ever get himself a KTF t-shirt?
These and many other questions can only, truly be answered by the passage of time. Esports governing body Kespa ultimately holds the reins to professional StarCraft, but it is the fervor of the fans, the netizens influence and the players themselves who can, in their own various ways change the face of Esports forever.
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Just to round off the article, here's a little question for anyone who wants to answer it;
Question:
What changes/hopes/wishes do you hold for StarCraft (and esports in general.) in the future?
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Q: What changes/hopes/wishes do you hold for StarCraft (and esports in general.) in the future?
A: Abolishment of KeSpA, 10 more osl titles for july and 2 msls, bisu in massive slump.
Edit: ty for article!!
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
Very interesting read, although I want to point to a few things -
Shouldn't it be SITEX? That's what I remember the site being called iirc. Not 100% Sure.
Also, the Bisu-Stork era should be 'Taek-beng' (no idea why they call it that way though) instead of 'Taek-bang'.
Great pics of Savior and Tossgirl there. I agree that STX SouL is doing too little to help Tossgirl to perform in the field of gameplay, instead using her more as a promotional figure/model. It's a wonder how she finds that will to continue gaming, despite her team totally ignoring her original purpose.
Oh, and what I hope to see:
KeSPA doing what is right, not what is written.
Overseas promotion of e-Sports
Rise of Savior
And also @ this:
Can foreign fans bridge the gap between Korea and themselves?
I believe in 'yes'. Compared to just a few years ago, the interaction between the foreign fans and the players/teams have significantly become closer. Foreign fanbases are letting themselves known that they are there, regardless of how far they are, to support for their favourite players.
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Nice article, liked the first part best.
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Here's crossing my fingers to seeing a women truly break through into the professional scene, legitimately...
but I have a hard time seeing that - women simply aren't drawn to playing starcraft as men are - to them, it's more about watching the players be damned attractive - thus leaving the pool of people that play the game smaller, leaving a smaller chance that a great player will exist in this pool...etcetc. It would take a lot for a girl to really break through, but it would be pretty awesome if the sex-barrier could be broken down.
Great read though  . It'll be interesting to see the direction SC takes in the next year or so!
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Woot July we miss you in PL buddy hope you make it in to the next OSL as always . Nice article thank you .
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That's a great picture of JulyZerg! I'm a big fan of this article and your work in general, NeverGG. Thanks for this writeup!
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speaking of which, when is that Old Star tournament going to be? I remember it's going to be like around June/July or something?
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There's one way of getting more old favorites to play in more high profile games. Give all past champions of a each starleague automatic entry into the Ro32/36. Sure it's a tad unfair to everyone else, but winner's privilege, and will lead to more highly anticipated games, rather than fan-favorites losing in a crapshoot some offline qualifier to a noname player. (Even if a player has a 70% winrate, the chances are surprisingly low to actually qualify, so it truly is a crapshoot.)
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On May 20 2009 16:53 Zona wrote:
There's one way of getting more old favorites to play in more high profile games. Give all past champions of a each starleague automatic entry into the Ro32/36. Sure it's a tad unfair to everyone else, but winner's privilege, and will lead to more highly anticipated games, rather than fan-favorites losing in a crapshoot some offline qualifier to a noname player. (Even if a player has a 70% winrate, the chances are surprisingly low to actually qualify, so it truly is a crapshoot.)
This must be the BEST IDEEA EVER i think
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On May 20 2009 16:53 Zona wrote:
There's one way of getting more old favorites to play in more high profile games. Give all past champions of a each starleague automatic entry into the Ro32/36. Sure it's a tad unfair to everyone else, but winner's privilege, and will lead to more highly anticipated games, rather than fan-favorites losing in a crapshoot some offline qualifier to a noname player. (Even if a player has a 70% winrate, the chances are surprisingly low to actually qualify, so it truly is a crapshoot.)
All all title holders are also automatically seeded into a Ro16 where the winner plays the winner of the 'showcase starleague'. Also the winner of the seeds starts with a 2-0 advantage and the other player only gets half a win each time.
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as always thanks for writing an insider article for you to share with us.
however, could you or someone else be kind enough to explain this part?
However, there hasn't been a wide-spread discussion in relation to (selected) dream scenarios as a domestic/foreign community.
I don't get this part at all, and i'm assuming it's the whole point of the article.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 20 2009 17:18 broz0rs wrote:as always thanks for writing an insider article for you to share with us. however, could you or someone else be kind enough to explain this part? Show nested quote +However, there hasn't been a wide-spread discussion in relation to (selected) dream scenarios as a domestic/foreign community. I don't get this part at all, and i'm assuming it's the whole point of the article.
@Konadora - no it's on the official map for the place itself spelt 'SETEC.' Also it's been romanized both ways - so I picked the more visually appealing one.
@broz0rs;
Um....I'm not really sure where your confusion is stemming from - the whole basis of the article is - good things that could happen for the Korean SC scene (for both foreign and Korean fans/players.) I can't put it more simply than that. Also a slight discussion of the problems (but I covered that a lot in my last article.)
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What are you advocating in the section about tossgirl?
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Nice write-up!
Needs more Nada though =). Btw, Savior won't destroy anyone in 2009 imo
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The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal?
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I hope sc bw stays alive even when Sc2 comes along. Sc2 is a totally different game in my opinion, so hopefully there is no conversion to it.
A dream of mine would be to get any kind of skt1 memorabilia, especially a team shirt and jacket. I also wish to be able to fly to Korea and see a live match.
I hope to see Savior take at least 1 more title before he retires. I hope Bisu keeps on dominating aswell. I hope Best returns to form and I hope to see Boxer get back to winning some games.
I hope fbh continues to lose to the point of getting demoted to b-team.
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On May 20 2009 21:36 FieryBalrog wrote:
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal?
OP is owned  (sry, mean)
tossgirl is given power by the same thing that "pideon holes" her, viz. her plastic face, and nice skin. celebrities are objects. they are PR reps for people selling shit. you think boxer is any less "discriminated" against than toss girl? really nice article. but the toss girl section was self-defeating. don't make tossgirl or anyway a victim. you claim tossgirl should function as a player and not as "eye-candy". this is your subjective opinion. how you think toss girl should function is your opinion. tossgirl can and only functions as she functions...which is as an ambassador to SC or in other words "eye-candy". in chinese she is called the Empress (女皇). This is empowering. Why can't women celebrate their raw attractiveness? She sucks at SC, everyone knows that. But she is on a programing team and serves as a PR agent for said team and furthermore for SC as a whole. Savior is cool but if you see his face on a CJ ad and you dont know who he is you prolly arent gonna buy that bag of chips. but if tossgirl reps your stuff.. bam.. chi ching! Tasteless and SDM use tossgirl as the banner for their tournament. she's not in the tournament, so what... it's good for business. don't be so naive. and dont make people victims.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 20 2009 22:23 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 21:36 FieryBalrog wrote:
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal? OP is owned. tossgirl is given power by the same thing that "pideon holes" her, viz. her plastic face, and nice skin. celebrities are objects. they are PR reps for people selling shit. you think boxer is any less "discriminated" against than toss girl? really nice article. but the toss girl section was self-defeating. don't make tossgirl or anyway a victim.
Uh why the hell would I be 'owned' by someone having a different opinion to my article? I'm glad it's promoting discussion. (I guess if I'm so owned then I should just stop working so hard to provide insider info from Korean hm?)
I'm not looking to call her a victim - good luck to her if she's happy with being the laughing stock of a large majority of domestic and foreign fans (heck she probably makes a good wage off of it.) She's just the most visible example of how imbalanced promotion can be for female gamers. There are plenty of progaming women in other esports who get on just fine without having to be marketed in mini skirts.
The imbalance is what I have a problem with - even with the most attractive male gamers (Bisu/Hwasin/Boxer etc.) fans/management take the time to highlight all the aspects of their 'celebrity' including their gaming abilities - but these days with ToSsgirl that doesn't seem to be the case. It's just a shame because she could be used to promote gaming in a much more rounded and interesting way, but sadly she's not.
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I hope to see July come back to his peak, as well as savior. Really i just want to see some dominant Zergs (and this year seems to be the best one in a long time for that). Not only that but i also wish to see a competitive female figure in the genre, even though she'll most likely resemble  HoeJJa or July (read: fat and ugly)
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On May 20 2009 22:17 Spanxxx wrote:
I hope fbh continues to lose to the point of getting demoted to b-team.
Ahaha.
I really hope SaviOr makes a comeback. 
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ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of. the westerners who ridicule her.. who cares? that is because they are confusing her with a mere progamer. she is much more than a struggling player. you think STX keeps her around hoping that one day she can finally have a breakthrough? she is on stx for the same reason boxer is still on skt1 and why idra is on CJ... 50% skill 50% amazing PR.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and attractive charms which can come from either previously destroying everyone (e.g. boxer, savior, july, ooV) or by an attractive woman amongst nerds (e.g. tossgirl).
if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora)
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On May 20 2009 16:14 NeverGG wrote:
Will Scaramanga ever get himself a KTF t-shirt?
oh god i hope so
great article neggy
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 20 2009 22:38 omninmo wrote:
ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and charm (e.g. boxer and tossgirl). if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora)
Having met her and seen her at several events during my photography and journalistic work now as well as watched her on television here I'm pretty sure it's not unfounded. I'm also friends with a large number of the STX Soul fanclub - through a senior member who used to be my partner working at Yongsan and LOOX (and who is a fluent English speaker.) who has told me *exactly* what the majority of the Korean SC fans she knows online and offline think of ToSsgirl. It's not really a positive response even if they are only discussing her alleged love life most of the time.
Oh and will you refrain from saying I'm making her a victim (it's as annoying a generalisation about my intentions for the article as it is you claiming to know precisely what every Korean fan thinks of her.) - I don't even like her as a gamer and I have no intentions of saying she is blameless for the way she is promoted. It is her choice to endorse Esports in the way that she does (along with that of STX and the team.)
If we're going to sit here and nitpick my exact sentence construction all night then I'll stop making the effort to write articles in the future.
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On May 20 2009 22:46 NeverGG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 22:38 omninmo wrote:
ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and charm (e.g. boxer and tossgirl). if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora) Having met her and seen her at several events during my photography and journalistic work now as well as watched her on television here I'm pretty sure it's not unfounded. I'm also friends with a large number of the STX Soul fanclub - through a senior member who used to be my partner working at Yongsan and LOOX (and who is a fluent English speaker.) who has told me *exactly* what the majority of the Korean SC fans she knows online and offline think of ToSsgirl. It's not really a positive response even if they are only discussing her alleged love life most of the time. Oh and will you refrain from saying I'm making her a victim (it's as annoying a generalisation about my intentions for the article as it is you claiming to know precisely what every Korean fan thinks of her.) - I don't even like her as a gamer and I have no intentions of saying she is blameless for the way she is promoted. It is her choice to endorse Esports in the way that she does (along with that of STX and the team.) If we're going to sit here and nitpick my exact sentence construction all night then I'll stop making the effort to write articles in the future.
no, your article is great. please continue. really, i think you do great work. but keep the pity out of it. be a journalist and not a columnist. she is just trying to get by like all of us. there is no place in PL for a player of her calibre and yet she is still around. Hmmm, do we need to hypothesize why? furthermore, do we need to judge her? finally, explain how her current appeal is different from boxer or savior's? boxer is exploited by skt1 more than tossgirl is. you can argue that boxer "deserves" to be on camera at every commercial break even though he is B team nobody in terms of skillz but the fact is that he is being "used" just as much as tossgirl.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 20 2009 22:50 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 22:46 NeverGG wrote:On May 20 2009 22:38 omninmo wrote:
ok, saying you were owned is a little harsh. yes. sorry.
your gripe with TG though is unfounded and quite subjective. "good luck if she is happy being a laughing stock"... that is sarcastic and negative. she is not a laughing stock if you dont laugh. you are making her a victim. if you suppose tossgirl is a fledgling b teamer.. then yes.. she is pitiful. but she's not. she's the empress. no one in korea thinks of her as a shitty progamer. they think of her as the progamer they want to find scandal pics of.
"its a shame" you say? there are two ways to promote SC. one is by destroying everyone else (e.g. Jaedong) and the other is by sheer charisma and charm (e.g. boxer and tossgirl). if you think there is any shame amidst tossgirl's situation then you must admit the same for boxer, who is not an A team player anymore, yet sits on the front row and gets more camera time than Dazurg (hi konadora) Having met her and seen her at several events during my photography and journalistic work now as well as watched her on television here I'm pretty sure it's not unfounded. I'm also friends with a large number of the STX Soul fanclub - through a senior member who used to be my partner working at Yongsan and LOOX (and who is a fluent English speaker.) who has told me *exactly* what the majority of the Korean SC fans she knows online and offline think of ToSsgirl. It's not really a positive response even if they are only discussing her alleged love life most of the time. Oh and will you refrain from saying I'm making her a victim (it's as annoying a generalisation about my intentions for the article as it is you claiming to know precisely what every Korean fan thinks of her.) - I don't even like her as a gamer and I have no intentions of saying she is blameless for the way she is promoted. It is her choice to endorse Esports in the way that she does (along with that of STX and the team.) If we're going to sit here and nitpick my exact sentence construction all night then I'll stop making the effort to write articles in the future. no, your article is great. please continue. really, i think you do great work. but keep the pity out of it. be a journalist and not a columnist.
It's difficult not to inject emotion into writing when you're not discussing concepts with a solid 'answer' such as analysing gameplay or calculating statistics. So I'm going to go right ahead and refuse idea until I write an article that requires a lack of opinion.
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ok, sorry i railroaded your column. i was just trying to help.
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great article! 10/10 (if i could rate it)
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tossgirl T_T i respect her so much i wish she can win more games.
MJY and boxer july those were really favorite legend along wit nalra oov nada and all the other greats
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Why so harsh on tossgirl?
edit: lol, I see this has been discussed right above me.
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Nice read but leave tossgirl alone I love her 
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal?
It wouldn't take the marketing to get her noticed she would be treated differently just because she is female no matter whether that is her marketing ploy or not. It may be a blessing and a curse that as a female gamer people take interest not only in your game. There are people that dislike her just because they don't find her attractive. I really think it is unfair to say that she is lucky to be have the opportunity to market being a girl to gain fame above her rank.
Also, other gamers with abysmal win ratios have fans.
Question time!
Will women gamers ever recieve as much respect as their male counterparts?
~ When they are as competitive as the males  I don't think it is so much a lack of respect as just being treated differently; which can be a benefit or disadvantage depending on the situation. It would be interesting to see, though, how many people would choose an unattractive girl ranked #1 in KeSPA as their favourite player over players like JaeDong/Bisu/FlaSh.
Can foreign fans bridge the gap between Korea and themselves?
~ Yes, if not with SC then with future games.
Who (if anyone) will make a return in 2010?
~ YellOw ofc.
Will Scaramanga ever get himself a KTF t-shirt?
~ If I have any say in it
What changes/hopes/wishes do you hold for StarCraft (and esports in general.) in the future?
~ That SC remains alive, I get very sentimental.
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I hope people will continue playing SC: BW after SC2 comes out
I hope Jaedong becomes the next bonjwa
I hope I will be able to buy Oz merchandise
I hope Reach makes a comeback
Great read btw
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On May 20 2009 22:30 NeverGG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2009 22:23 omninmo wrote:On May 20 2009 21:36 FieryBalrog wrote:
The question is simple with tossgirl: she doesn't win but has fame far beyond her abilities simply because she is a woman. How is this fair for the legions of male progamers stuck in the middle ranks with her, who can't gain fame by being marketed as female?
I fail to see how that equates with a "lack of respect" for female gamers, which is simply a feminist trope that is trotted out without regard for the situation; in fact, it inverts the situation. For tossgirl, if she and her managers didn't play up her looks, why would anyone pay any attention to her at all when her win rate is abysmal? OP is owned. tossgirl is given power by the same thing that "pideon holes" her, viz. her plastic face, and nice skin. celebrities are objects. they are PR reps for people selling shit. you think boxer is any less "discriminated" against than toss girl? really nice article. but the toss girl section was self-defeating. don't make tossgirl or anyway a victim. Uh why the hell would I be 'owned' by someone having a different opinion to my article? I'm glad it's promoting discussion. (I guess if I'm so owned then I should just stop working so hard to provide insider info from Korean hm?) I'm not looking to call her a victim - good luck to her if she's happy with being the laughing stock of a large majority of domestic and foreign fans (heck she probably makes a good wage off of it.) She's just the most visible example of how imbalanced promotion can be for female gamers. There are plenty of progaming women in other esports who get on just fine without having to be marketed in mini skirts. The imbalance is what I have a problem with - even with the most attractive male gamers (Bisu/Hwasin/Boxer etc.) fans/management take the time to highlight all the aspects of their 'celebrity' including their gaming abilities - but these days with ToSsgirl that doesn't seem to be the case. It's just a shame because she could be used to promote gaming in a much more rounded and interesting way, but sadly she's not.
She promotes herself that way, it was a decision by her and her managers, unless you have some evidence that she was secretly coerced somehow. It makes perfect sense, too, since how is tossgirl supposed to play up her gaming abilities when she can barely beat other progamers? She naturally plays up the aspects which she can to gain fame.
So how is that a lack of respect for her again? I have no disrespect towards her for marketing herself this way, she's a big girl and can do whatever she wants, but I absolutely can't agree with your pretension that now society is somehow victimizing her. Its a typical feminist trope to semantically shift the burden of responsibility for "unwanted" female actions to structural forces no matter the situation.
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That was a fun and interesting read! 
Some things I wish for the future of sc would be:
- Kespa relaxing their regulations. Seriously, seeing players getting disqualified over accidentally typing "a" is ridiculous.
- ACE continuing to do well in PL and YellOw winning some games
- A Bisu vs Jaedong OSL final!
- Savior doing better and getting sent out to play more often (I like the rookie cj players but i miss watching the veterans )
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Calgary25974 Posts
Really nice article. It's unfortunate the male/female discussion somehow snuck in there because its basis is very flimsy - Specifically the last paragraph in the R.E.S.P.E.C.T. section. Forcibly adding women to StarCraft would add literally nothing to the competition or excitement. The game quality would decrease. In fact your suggestion of adding women to StarCraft defeats the goal of them being treated like equals. The situation we have now treats them as equals - if you suck you don't play. If Tossgirl wants to play, she should not suck. If getting paid a salary is making her suck, she should refuse payment in order to train. Clearly this is a futile, terrible idea and everyone knows it, so what's the point in discussing some fairytale situation where she became an A-team member?
I love the emotion and writing style of the entire article. It was very pleasant to read.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 21 2009 09:20 Chill wrote:
Really nice article. It's unfortunate the male/female discussion somehow snuck in there because its basis is very flimsy - Specifically the last paragraph in the R.E.S.P.E.C.T. section.
I love the emotion and writing style of the entire article. It was very pleasant to read.
Thanks Chill. Looking at it now - I think I needed to word it differently to get my precise point across. Plus she is the only real evidence of this now the womens' leagues are long gone. I wish I'd been around to be able to report those. However, these are really only written for fun when I'm bored so I probably won't rewrite it now. (Heck it's why I'm graphics team and not writers LOL!)
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Calgary25974 Posts
Sorry NeverGG I ninja-added some stuff to my post, but it should be evident anyways.
It really sucks (and 99% of people, including myself, are going to fall into this trap) that when everything is really nice except one thing, it get's the focus. There's a huge disparity in my post when I loved the article but spent the majority discussing what I didn't like.
So I want to emphasize that I really enjoyed this article a lot. I specifically like the emotion I can feel behind the words. It really feels like an article from someone invested into it, rather than someone largely removed from their words. THANKS!
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
Read the line under this sentence.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On May 21 2009 09:30 Chill wrote:
Sorry NeverGG I ninja-added some stuff to my post, but it should be evident anyways.
It really sucks (and 99% of people, including myself, are going to fall into this trap) that when everything is really nice except one thing, it get's the focus. There's a huge disparity in my post when I loved the article but spent the majority discussing what I didn't like.
So I want to emphasize that I really enjoyed this article a lot. I specifically like the emotion I can feel behind the words. It really feels like an article from someone invested into it, rather than someone largely removed from their words. THANKS!
I can understand where you're coming from on that edit. I don't agree with forcibly adding women to StarCraft upon a professional level myself. I think I'm wishing more for a female gamer to be able to rise up through the ranks upon the strength of her performances alone and to not be judged via her looks. It'd be awesome to see a woman version of Flash or Jaedong tearing up the scene and making some waves (it'd definitely be something different for once.)
@poster below: I still laugh every time I see that ID. It's almost as funny as Only.Hubert and By.Sheep.
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I want to buy an STX shirt! :\
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no. Foreigners will never catch up to koreans. Unless they're enough of a loser to go to korea and play (idra) or create a starcraft league in the US that people would watch (noone would watch)
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Starcraft is the most competitive game in history. Making women a bigger role of sc is idiotic. We are not all created equal. If women gamers do not have the drive, or the capacity to play at the required level, they will not be there. Affirmative action results in the lowering of standards [EDIT: I just read the post above mine, and it seems that was never your intent. I'll keep that in there anyways because I don't like deleting my thoughts, but I apologize for arguing against something you never specifically stated/alluded to.]. Only the competent men, only the competent women, must be on a team. Tossgirl is horrible. She remains on stx because she refuses to retire, and her looks can be abused for more money. Of course they are going to do it. It's not sexist, or unfair. Many veteran players remain active only in name, and appear only to boost ratings temporarily. The way I see it, females getting a bigger role in sc is neither a positive or a negative, its simply a potential. If they strive hard enough and play hard enough, maybe they can go somewhere [though tests have shown men are better at conceptualization and visual based information, and therefore have an inherent advantage in, well, video games and coordination, so dont expect parity.]
I agree with the rest of the article.
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To be honest I don't think ToSsgirl is the right barometer in looking at a female pro gamer rising to the top. Even though she is the only female in the SCBW scene, she isn't conventional in the least.
Would gender really matter in SCBW if you were good? I didn't even think ToSsgirl lived in the STX house, how can you even compare her to male pro gamers when she doesn't even meet one of the simplest criteria for living a pro gamers life?
Not to take anything away from her, because shes a great player in the grand scheme of starcraft and being great takes alot of time and dedication.
The point is, if you look at the SCBW pro scene in a vacuum, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the lesser players don't make it to JD/Bisu/Flash/"x" level. (substitute x with the good player that would not make you angry at me)
Great read btw. I'm just giving my 2c, I read it as more of a stream of consciousness anyway, not trying to debate!
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Great article! Thank you!
I agree about Tossgirl , but I also accept that's sadly how society works
2 Questions:
First question: Were you present at the EVER2008 finals ? I think I saw you in the crowd at about 08:52~54 in game2
Second question: Was that the biggest attendance at a OSL final ? If not, which one has there been more at, and do you know how many ?
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Great article!
As regards the question of the sex differences - how many (I assume some) female gamers compete in things like the Courage tournaments, and how well do they do? I don't know if there's any way you would know this, but it would be an interesting thing to look at.
Also July is awesome.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
great article
but uh tossgirl isn't pigeonholed because she's a woman, she's pigeonholed because she is an awful player and must be pigeonholed so to maintain any relevance
if she was a good player, things wouldn't be this way. she's only just recently started practicing anywhere near what her teammates do.
more specifically i mean to say it's not a lack of respect because she's a woman, it's a lack of respect because she's not good at starcraft. there is a very large difference between the two and the distinction must be made. there is virtually no avenue with a greater element of creating your own success than professional starcraft. the question "will women gamers ever receive the same respect as their male counterparts" is a little absurd to me and is way off the mark
i think you're making a very unfair connection while talking about her being 'paraded around' in tight clothes
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Valhalla18444 Posts
also could you stop threatening to stop doing what you do every time someone says something you don't like
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On May 21 2009 09:20 Chill wrote:
Really nice article. It's unfortunate the male/female discussion somehow snuck in there because its basis is very flimsy - Specifically the last paragraph in the R.E.S.P.E.C.T. section. Forcibly adding women to StarCraft would add literally nothing to the competition or excitement. The game quality would decrease. In fact your suggestion of adding women to StarCraft defeats the goal of them being treated like equals. The situation we have now treats them as equals - if you suck you don't play. If Tossgirl wants to play, she should not suck. If getting paid a salary is making her suck, she should refuse payment in order to train. Clearly this is a futile, terrible idea and everyone knows it, so what's the point in discussing some fairytale situation where she became an A-team member?
I love the emotion and writing style of the entire article. It was very pleasant to read.
I find the whole issue a little awkward, I would agree that we treat them as equals at the moment, but I think the issue is self (un)fulfilling, you can't really expect for example a completely mixed starcraft scene to grow out of the current one now in a month or so, Its an issue of players, I can't name a single other female starcraft player other than tossgirl, and there needs to be a continuing cycle of players joining because they see players playing and perhaps having more female leagues on TV would A) There would have to be a decent number of girls in the league in order for it to work and B) hopefully there would become a point where such a league would gain its own momentum and it could attract women to the game at the same rate that it losses them.
But clearly, that has been done before, so I can't help but think that part of the problem is the perception of computer games as "boys toys"
All in all, I think its much more likely that the gender imbalance in starcraft comes down to a lack of motivation, and the lack of any real players, rather than any qualities in men that make them better at starcraft than women,
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Great post, thanks.
The title: "coming out of the closet" followed by Jaedong? That would be funny if it were a pic of Bisu, but Jaedong? Naah the joke is lost there.
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Nice article, NeverGG. However, I find it interesting that you did not mention one of the greatest hope`s/dream`s of the non-Korean crowds and that is to see another foreigner be successful on the Korean scene. Ever since  Grrrr... retired from progaming, there has not been a single foreigner that has managed to match his success. That is the reason why so many people pinned their hopes on  IdrA, since he was (and still is) so successful on the foreigner scene.
However, considering IdrA`s rather abysmal success so far and the ever closer release of StarCraft II, that dream is becoming increasingly unlikely. As such, unless some Chinese player (Chinese are non-Koreans a.k.a foreigners as well >looks Artosis`s way< ) starts beating top Koreans on ICCup left and right and gets invited, it seems like we will most likely have to wait for StarCraft II to get our next Grrrr...
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I hear what you saying bout tossgirl but do you see any other player of her skill level getting that level of attention, shes really lucky if you ask me.
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i want title matches to be like boxing, you win the osl, you wait until the next person wins and then you challenge for the crown, kind of like the gomtv thing.
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On May 25 2009 12:00 Kuja900 wrote:
I hear what you saying bout tossgirl but do you see any other player of her skill level getting that level of attention, shes really lucky if you ask me.
That's a bit debatable. I wouldn't swallow to my pride to be kept in a proteam as "eye candy" becase my skill is not good enough to actually be there. Because that's the truth, she's there to create an image.
Oh and btw, great article NeverGG, it was an enjoyable read.
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United States12607 Posts
I agree with FakeSteve on this article's treatment of ToSsGirl.
Some may argue that she has no place in the progaming scene, but unfortunately her role is largely defined by two basic aspects; her gender and her perceived attractiveness. Pigeon-holed by the very company she works for, Jisoo is now regarded as not only a player with no chance to advance beyond the ranks of the middling male progamers, but also as so-called 'eye-candy.' Dressed in mini skirts and tight fitting tops she fulfills the same role as the Star League booth girls.
As Chill mentioned, this paragraph is particularly objectionable. How can you say Tossgirl is "pigeonholed" when she voluntarily works for STX SouL? Also, you seem to be suggesting that it's somehow unfair that Tossgirl is seen as "a player with no chance to advance beyond the ranks of the middling male progamers" (the male distinction is completely unnecessary here). This is professional gaming! There are scores of gamers who we've seen flounder in their few broadcast appearances and have dismissed as second-tier players - why are you trying to make this perception seem unjust in Tossgirl's case?
The bottom line is that, as FS pointed out, Tossgirl gets no respect because she is not good at StarCraft (relatively speaking, of course). In fact the only reason she remains relevant in the SC scene is because she has the advantage of being a woman (and thus a unique spokesperson), so to paint her position as some sort of male-dominance-induced injustice is preposterous.
The system might do itself and the spirits of those women gamers who look up to their professional counterparts if it stopped looking for 'pretty' or 'bankable.' and started seeking out 'talent' and 'motivation' instead.
Are you suggesting that StarCraft teams are recruiting pretty female gamers? I certainly don't see any evidence for this. The professional StarCraft scene is one of the most brutally efficient meritocracies I've ever seen in action: talent and motivation are what make stars, bring in money, and inspire teams' scouts. Because we rarely even see progamers on camera (and the game in its "purest" multiplayer form is played totally anonymously), skill is much more important in SC (versus "marketability") than it is in any sport, for example. It's borderline absurd to imply that professional SC rewards "pretty and bankable" over "talent and motivation".
Will women gamers ever recieve as much respect as their male counterparts?
This question is totally off the mark. As I've already mentioned, Tossgirl gets little respect because she is not good at SC, not because she is a woman. To show that there is somehow an anti-female bias amongst SC fans, you would need to find male players with Tossgirl's accomplishments who are more respected. Good luck...I think based on the results of this search you'd have to conclude that SC fans have an anti-male bias (for supporting Tossgirl despite her mediocre record).
The non-Tossgirl elements of this bit were cool, though. Thanks for those, NeverGG, and as always keep up the awesome work with your photography.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
I have a feeling people assumed I was defending Tossgirl as a fellow woman - I actually dislike her and the way she allows herself/is marketed (maybe it shows.) I think we're probably going to have to agree to all have differing perspectives on this. Also I wasn't suggesting only SC teams were recruiting female progamers (I personally think the impending release of SC2 is leading to less pick ups by the proteams in general.) - it's more evident if you look at the OGN Sparkyz SF team for example.
I think I'll take a break from article writing - I've got no new subjects to discuss currently. Back to photos it is!
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On May 25 2009 10:08 Tom Phoenix wrote:Nice article, NeverGG. However, I find it interesting that you did not mention one of the greatest hope`s/dream`s of the non-Korean crowds and that is to see another foreigner be successful on the Korean scene. Ever since Grrrr... retired from progaming, there has not been a single foreigner that has managed to match his success. That is the reason why so many people pinned their hopes on IdrA, since he was (and still is) so successful on the foreigner scene. However, considering IdrA`s rather abysmal success so far and the ever closer release of StarCraft II, that dream is becoming increasingly unlikely. As such, unless some Chinese player (Chinese are non-Koreans a.k.a foreigners as well >looks Artosis`s way< ) starts beating top Koreans on ICCup left and right and gets invited, it seems like we will most likely have to wait for StarCraft II to get our next Grrrr...
grrr became successful only cuz pro starcraft wasnt that big in korea yet.
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