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On February 12 2009 23:23 errol1001 wrote:
Burrowed units don't take splash damage (it's not a hitbox thing).
That's why swarm + lurker works..
On February 12 2009 23:49 arbiter_md wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 23:23 errol1001 wrote:
Burrowed units don't take splash damage (it's not a hitbox thing).
That's why swarm + lurker works.. Are you sure about the burrowed and splash? I'm sure I played some UMS where the reaver was killing 2-3 burrowed units with one hit.
Of course burrowed units take splash.
Thats why siege tank & SCV or Archon & zealot against lurks works.
They just take no splash damage from tanks under swarm.
Does anyone know, do burrowed units under swarm take damage from Archons or reavers? I'm guessing archons no, reavers yes but i cant check right now...
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70% chance of hit isnt like, it will hit in 7 out of 10 shots
for each shot 70%
so it means that it may never land a hit, or land all hits in 100 shots, it is lucky based
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No, it's probability based and the probability that a large simple will differ significantly from the probability is tiny.
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yeah if you just look at the numbers in the first post you'll realize the odds of it actually being 70% is vanishingly small (actually, impossible because games use pseudo-random number generators, not actually random numbers)
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On February 13 2009 00:13 stet_tcl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 23:23 errol1001 wrote:
Burrowed units don't take splash damage (it's not a hitbox thing).
That's why swarm + lurker works.. Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 23:49 arbiter_md wrote:On February 12 2009 23:23 errol1001 wrote:
Burrowed units don't take splash damage (it's not a hitbox thing).
That's why swarm + lurker works.. Are you sure about the burrowed and splash? I'm sure I played some UMS where the reaver was killing 2-3 burrowed units with one hit. Of course burrowed units take splash. Thats why siege tank & SCV or Archon & zealot against lurks works. They just take no splash damage from tanks under swarm. Does anyone know, do burrowed units under swarm take damage from Archons or reavers? I'm guessing archons no, reavers yes but i cant check right now...
In regard to your question, I believe you're guessing right.
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Ya this has always bothered me, Im glad someone finally did the math on this topic.
I always thought it was a 66.6% (1/3 miss) rather than 70 but even then when I would attack a ramp and notice every now and then my goons miss 3 shots in a row before making a hit made me wonder, was it really 2/3 hit rate?
Nice writeup I BELIEVE YOU!...
Maybe it has to do with the patches and how the game has changed over time, either way I still think its fair the way it is... usually when u need to use your highground to your advantage you really need it so... more power to the 52% IMO.
maybe we can try to figure out why when you have a ton of units and they hit 1 building/unit and it obviously would of died within the first few hit, yet each unit gets their punches in and maybe twice... anyone else ever notice how it seems that units "miss" on lowground every now and then?
EDIT: This usually happens when there is a lot of units attacking 1 or very few units, without ground height advantage/disadvantage.
anywho nice write up. Hope to see some more math related topics from you. 
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This was a very good test.
But I don't think it's complete unless some other units are tested (how about tanks without siege?) and/or different targets are tested. Perhaps the results will be different if you attack a unit and not a building.
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Good work. I also didn't believe the 70% lol.
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Have you tried using the lower high ground or raised or whatever it's called?
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United States12607 Posts
On February 13 2009 00:23 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:
70% chance of hit isnt like, it will hit in 7 out of 10 shots
for each shot 70%
so it means that it may never land a hit, or land all hits in 100 shots, it is lucky based
Sorry, but this.... holy shit...
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On February 13 2009 02:01 jwd241224 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2009 00:23 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:
70% chance of hit isnt like, it will hit in 7 out of 10 shots
for each shot 70%
so it means that it may never land a hit, or land all hits in 100 shots, it is lucky based Sorry, but this.... holy shit...
Yea, this is like a request for an algebra 1 textbook in my eyes.
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On February 13 2009 00:13 stet_tcl wrote:
They just take no splash damage from tanks under swarm.
Thats wrong, tank splash damage under swarm is a bit out of place, if you manually target the lurker behind(in direction from your tank) others, the front one will get damaged by the splash.
For example: X² X³ T
You shoot with Tank T at Lurker X² and X³ will take the damage from splash. (under swarm, and of course close to each other)
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On February 13 2009 01:27 Scamp wrote:
This was a very good test.
But I don't think it's complete unless some other units are tested (how about tanks without siege?) and/or different targets are tested. Perhaps the results will be different if you attack a unit and not a building.
As I say in the op, I already tried 3 kinds of units, and I tried attacking a tank instead of a turret but with the same results.
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On February 12 2009 15:43 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2009 12:38 Funnytoss wrote:
I would really like to see this tested with other range units - maybe it's subjective, but I always feel that Tanks do not suffer all that much when firing uphill when compared to Dragoons - at least, it always feels nearly impossible to assault a Terran sieged on high ground. Tanks deal splash damage with a radius big enough to hit almost any unit for 25% or 50% damage, even if the tank blast misses. This is the same for units on high ground, behind trees, and under dark swarm. I think burrowed units are the only units with small enough hitboxes that the tank splash misses them completely. jtan: huge thanks for finally testing this statistic.  I always thought it was 70%, but that % always felt too high.
It's not hitboxes, they are the same, it's just that burrowed units are completely immune to 50% and 25% splash(but not 100%), even if it's coming from a nuke.
It's not true that splash doesn't work against swarm, that's because of splash immunity from burrow, while swarm moves the damage area a bit towards the attacker, so combined with burrow the lurkers become invulnerable to direct tank and archon attacks, but you can still damage a lurker, if you target something behind him, so the 100% splash zone appears on top of him. Lurkers and Firebats fire directly at the target, so they can't miss and Reaver Scarabs are melee kamikaze units, so they attack normally under swarm(and their 100% splash zone is pretty big).
I guess I'll just c/p a post of mine concerning the most commonly asked questions about game mechanics:
+ Show Spoiler +
Here's how the damage calculation is done:
1. Reduction from splash zone(damage is multiplied by 0.25/0.5/1.0)
2. Armor amount reduction
3. Armor type reduction
If it's a protoss unit and:
a) Currently has no shields, just the armor type and amount of the unit are used.
b) It has shields, the shield upgrade amount is used and the armor type takes 100% from everything. If this attack depletes the shields, the leftover damage after depleting the shields is calculated again as in case a)
The minimum damage from an attack is 0.5 and this does not apply twice for the separate shield/hp calculations for protoss units. Damage amount is rounded to 1/256.
Units with special attacks:
Zealot - 2 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade
Scout Air - 2 attacks by 14 + 1 per upgrade
Goliath Air - 2 attacks by 10 + 2 per upgrade
Firebat - 3 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade, even burrowed lurkers can be hit by all 3 attacks, it just depends on the angle of attack(the amount shoed is hardcoded to be the damage of 2 of the attacks added up, but all three are upgraded and each deals 8 damage base)
Lurker - several attacks by 20 + 2 per upgrade, with the restriction that only 1 attack can hit a single unit and all of them have only 100% splash(the 50% and 25% areas are the same as the 100%, so a unit can't take partial damage from the lurker's attack). A bug can override this rule, this happens when the lurker dies the exact moment it attacks, then a unit can be hit by several of the attacks, it's easily noticable with full hp marines dying to a single lurker.
Valk - 8 attacks by 6 + 1 per upgrade, if there are multiple units in the 100% splash zone, only one will take 100% damage and the others will take 50%. The same aplies to corsairs.
Mutalisk bounces deal 1/3 of the previous bounce, for example +1 damage muta against 3 targets with 1 armor will deal 10 - 1 = 9 on the first hit, 10 / 3 - 1 = 2.333...(rounded to the nearest 1/256) on the second hit and 10 / 9 - 1 = 0.111... upped to 0.5, which is the minimum damage, on the third hit.
Devourer spores increase damage from each attack by 1 per spore, this includes spell damage.
Not an unit attack, but since it affects attacks: Defensive matrix reduces attack damage to the minimum - 0.5, this includes spell damage. The total damage prevented is 250, but this does not acount the minimum damage inflicted or the unit's armor, so a zergling with 5 damage will perish the shield in 50 hits and still deal 25 damage, no matter the target's armor and the end effect will be 225 damage absorbed on a unit with 0 armor and even less on a unit with several points of armor(if the target has 5 armor, for example, having Defensive Matrix will not make any difference).
An exception to these 2 is the plague, which doesn't deal damage, but directly removes hp, so it doesn't interact with defensive matrix or acid spores.
Nukes deal:
Against units/buildings with 750 or less total maximum HP + shields -> 500, 250, 125 explosive damage.
Against units/buildings with 750 or more total maximum HP + shields ->
2/3, 1/3, 1/6 of the total maximum HP + shields.
The three values are for the 100%, 50% and 25% splash zones ofc.
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What if you have cover under a tree pluss you're on higher ground? Do the miss chances stack?
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Sounds very rigorous. Nice work!
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interesting
i wonder if it was 70% when the strategy guide was printed? quick, someone repeat the test on version 1.1! the game has gone through many changes, obviously, and the guide hasn't exactly kept up - it still tells you to rush to scouts iirc.
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Just one comment about this
On February 12 2009 08:30 jtan wrote:It might also be something wrong with starcrafts randomizer in my computer or something
It's definitely not something only on your computer. Randomization in Starcraft (or actually in computer systems in general) is deterministic - means it's random in a pre-determined way.
In a multiplayer game, a neutral critter, though moving around randomly, will move the exact same way on all players' computers (there's no communication exchanged among the computers about movement of neutral critters). Similarly, there's no communication needed among players' computers about whether the shot from the dragoon has missed the target - it's all determined "randomly" the same way.
So yeah, I'm sure it's not something wrong in your computer
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perhaps when they tested their RNG they came up with a result of about 70%? Who knows, when the hits are completely random like that, you have to do thousands of trials to nail down a good average. This is why they have super computers.
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EPT
