|
United States2186 Posts
*The return of iloveoov to progaming deserves at the very least one more article about the mental master. I very strongly encourage anyone who hasn't to check out Plexa's incredible works done already in the spoiler below. Since Plexa already covered so much so well, I don't want to be repeating any of his work and will instead focus on the other aspects of oov. I assume that anyone who reads this also read his articles, since otherwise you might be quite lost*
"When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape"
-iloveoov
Long before the reign of Savior, iloveoov was the evil boss of progaming. He was the original person to hate, besides Mumuyung of course. He refused to rob Yellow of a silver, made Boxer cry, and emptied stadiums faster than Firebathero in a swimsuit. Go back and look at old live report threads, it's astounding how much hate he got. The games ended long before the threads finished, but the rest of the posts mostly consisted of complaints/hate against oov. His play was misunderstood, he was treated as a boring robot, but in reality he was the greatest genius in broodwar history. Now attitudes towards him have softened considerably, but I want to bring to the forefront the harder to see parts of oov.
The boss, surrounded by challengers
+ Show Spoiler [Reference] + After oov won against Boxer in the Ever OSL finals most of the crowd immediately left. And I don't know if FBH's half-naked ceremony made people leave but it fit well.
Pure Clutch and Dominance
iloveoov, rightly called the most dominating player in history, also became synonymous with boring, safe play that characterized the future generations of terran players. oov was blamed as the split between the Boxer style of flashy micro terran and the cold, calculating macro terrans that reigned afterwards. But unlike the many terrans that followed him such as goodfriend, Bifrost, FBH, or hwasin, oov was the smartest player in sc history, and totally unlike midas or iris, iloveoov was the also the most clutch player in history. While Nada (and only Nada) has accomplished more, you cannot argue with a 5-0 history in OGN/MBC finals.
There is an easy answer to the question of: If you had to pick someone to play for your life, who would you choose? In the highest pressure scenario possible, OSL/MSL finals, oov was unmatched.
iloveoov 3-0 Yellow Trigem MSL
iloveoov 3-2 Nada Hanafos MSL
iloveoov 3-2 Kingdom Spris MSL
iloveoov 3-2 Boxer Ever 04 OSL
iloveoov 3-0 Julyzerg Shinhan Bank OSL
+ Show Spoiler [Vs Nada] +It may have been 3-2, but oov went from being down 2-1 to utterly dominating the flabbergasted Nada in games 4 and 5.
+ Show Spoiler [Vs Boxer] + Note that he won against Boxer even after losing against the incredible game 4 build and looking visibily disturbed. And it was a series that he "force[d] himself to win."
Here's how other popular choices would fare:
+ Show Spoiler [Comparison] + JulyZerg 3/0 *In July only. Clearly watermelon power.  GARIMTO 2/0 Bisubuild 1/0 *It may have only won once, but it captured the heart and mouth of Klazart forever. TL.net 1/0 *Soon to be 2-0 sAviOr 4/2 *Pre-2009. Bisu 2/1 Jaedong 2/1 *He still lost to CUTEANGEL. JulyZerg 3/2 *Overall NaDa 6/4 rA 2/2  BoxeR 3/4 Reach 1/3 ChoJJa 1/3 *Sorry Tfeign, his Kespa ranking doesn't matter here. YellOw 0/5 *Yellow is the REAL Silver medalist. Take that Stork. Stork 0/3 *Wait Stork got 2nd place in Silver medal count. Who is it!? Will the real Mr. Silver please stand up? Silver 0/1 *Someone called? Did I make Power Rank yet? GG.Net 0/1 Midas 0/0 *JUST KIDDING. And you were up 2-1 too! ToSsGirL 0/0 Blackman 0/0 *Only if you're Polish.
The only way to beat oov
However, iloveoov was not just a Nada, who dominated single leagues but didn't hold his massive weight in teamleagues. Back when all kill leagues were around, iloveoov was the only ingredient needed. With a 13-2 record overall in the MBCGAME teamleague and putting up performances like this, It's not exactly hard to see how 4U won despite having a lineup similar to KTF last season.
Loser's bracket finals 4U vs GO
1: Xellos(GO) defeated Kos(4U) on Enter the Dragon
2: Xellos(GO) defeated IntoTheRainbow(4U) on Detonation_Xnote
3: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Xellos(GO) on JR's Memory
4: ILoveoov(4U) defeated ForU(GO) on Parallellines
5: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Nal_rA(GO) on Enter the Dragon
6: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Eros~Rage(GO) on Detonation_Xnote
4Union 4 : 2 GO
This is not someone you wanted to face
It was not just older teamleagues where he pulled miracles: oov still holds (the tied) record for most proleague victories at 17. Up until Boxer's retirement, oov was the team ace. It may have been team Boxer, but oov long was the guy you could always count on to win.
This is just how good he was in prime form, which he considered up to his Spris MSL win:
+ Show Spoiler [Stats] +oov up until facing Julyzerg 03/04/05-04/07/01. Nearly 15 months. 77-20 Overall (79%)
32-15 TvT (68%)
27-0 TvZ (100%)
18-5 TvP (78%) oov start of career to ever osl victory 03/04/05-04/11/20. 19 1/2 months. 114-48 Overall (70%)
45-28 TvT (62%)
37-9 TvZ (80%)
32-11 TvP (74%)
Brilliance
The primary charge leveled against oov was that he was safe, standard, and boring. But was that really true? Boxer was beloved because his play was risky and art, but oov was hated, because he was a machine. But oov was risky, oov was cutesy, oov is the smartest player in SC history, but oov's brilliance is much harder to detect, because it is far deeper and harder to understand.
A great example of this is EVER '04 finals. This series was one, if not the best series ever, and the most popular/spoken of game of the series is Boxer's m&m rush game 4 on Requiem, for very good reason. Ironically none of the other games are ever spoken of even though it is one of the most loved series and all the games are very very deep. The risk Boxer made in game 4was huge, the margin of error infinitely small, and above all he pulled it off in 1-2 situation.
Now consider game 3 on Mercury. iloveoov does a 1 fact 1 port tank/vult into wraith without addon build while boxer walls off and goes 2 port wraiths with addon. This is what's called a build order loss, and it's not luck, it's because Boxer is really smart too. Boxer's cloaked wraiths rape all of oov's wraiths without taking any damage and proceeds to take potshots at his scvs, who are frantically making an armory/acad, and gets many kills. Meanwhile oov counter's boxer with his tanks, but Boxer is able to easily repel them with tank/scv/wraith and almost no losses. At oov's base he is only able to live because he mass repairs his first goliath, and even then he is in a desperate situation with having no turrets, very limited scan, and only a paltry force that is being contained and continually sniped by Boxer.
And what does oov do while he is being nearly killed? Defend and stabilize? Counter? Nope, he expands. A hidden expansion at 3's main, which singlehandedly wins him the game. -Ironically Boxer almost gets himself back in the game with two hidden expansions of his own, but oov's early-mid game lead was too much to overcome.- Furthermore he does not get turrets, which would prevent Boxer from harassing him completely but instead invites the harass and keeps Boxer focused on harassing him while saving money at the same time. It may not be as flashy as Boxer's m&m rush, but it was every bit as impressive and seriously attests to iloveoov's psychological understanding.
Look at it from Boxer's POV: you nearly killed him, he still doesn't have turrets so you can harass him further. Would, oh I need to check for his hidden expansion, possibly come to mind at this time? No, of course not. Even knowing oov and his hidden expansion tendencies inside out, Boxer still didn't consider it; that's how strong of a play it was.
+ Show Spoiler [Luck?] +
People dismissed it as luck because Boxer's wraiths flew so close later on, but that was more of Boxer sending his wraiths away from oov's base than actively scouting for expos, for his wraiths didn't even scout the expo properly and did not attempt to scout any others. He sent out a deliberate scouting scv later which discovered it, so it would've been more luck that Boxer found it when he was not intending to.
oov's explanation to critics of his 'lucky' hidden expansion play"That's undeserved. I always think "the opponent would be unaware if I expand now" in my practice. It's all about timing. It's my strategy that I make a feint of defence, and expand at the very time that others think I won't. But recently other players did very well in scouting, therefore this strategy didn't work out. And the countermeasure is to pretend training units when rivals are scouting. He goes aways, then I expand."
Not even the Emperor could stop the busdriver.
iloveoov was anything besides a safe, boring player; if you know what to look for.
It was Nada who is the epitome of the safe terran, who ran his opponents over with impeccable macro and micro. oov did not have that ability to outplay them with mechanics, he needed to gain advantages with builds and game flow. Why did Nada never had any difficulty defeating July and oov did? oov was certainly more skilled at defense overall but his gameplan relied at gaining an early economic advantage, and while other zergs could not exploit the timing window of oov's first form, July could. Nada's safe play on the other hand was impervious to July's early aggression, and as July could only win zvt by aggressive play and doing early damage, it is not surprising that Nada is 8-2 vs July overall and was able to 3-0 him with ease in finals. I attribute the ease to the imbalanced positions Nada got; given their history, it wouldn't have made too much of a difference though.
+ Show Spoiler [Sidetrack Boxer and Safety] + Ironically, Boxer, who immediately comes to mind as the most aggressive and risky terran without question, and certainly was, played far more economically safely than oov. Consider Boxer's original innovation: 1 base harass. The most striking thing about it was how long Boxer took to expand. Usually he would only expand as his main minerals were running dry, although he often would only expand after his main ran out and just float his cc to the nat. While this build requires you to forego a cc until a fair amount of harassment is done and SV tech+ 3 rax is reached, there is little reason to not expand unless the enemy was near breaking point from the harass. The 8 marines sacrificed in making the CC are more than made up a few minutes later. Their loss is completely insignificant unless the battle is continually active and any loss in production for either side would spell their loss; which is true sometimes, but not always, and not for how long it takes for the main to run out.
Having played this build almost exclusively up until '06 or so, I realized how strong defensively strong this build was. You would march/fly around the map shutting down zerg expansions and disrupting their econ/tech. And of course, when they couldn't stop you from doing this, they would try to counter. And these counters would never succeed, because you are running off of 1 base, and short of defilers, which zerg could never reach in peace, there was no way they were successfully countering a 1 base terran.
One can argue that this is also due to Boxer and the trend started by him simply believing that aggressive play can accomplish the job well enough and the overall neglect for economics. However, ask yourself why Boxer still sticks to 1 base builds to this day. Why did Boxer stick with this style even after Nada pushed an expansion much earlier (though much later than oov would)? It's because Boxer can create a game flow where the battles are decided with small unit aggression, where he reigns supreme. Any earlier attempt at expanding would put him in peril to zerg counters, and it would not be necessary to do this if he could control the gameflow.
This is also one of the reasons why July/oov was so exciting to watch. oov was aggressive economically, July aggressive offensively. Economic aggression has never been fully appreciated/examined, and this lack of understanding is one of the reasons that oov was so hatable until Nostalgia set in.
Look at the gamechanging, very similar to Bisu vs Savior, game of oov vs July on Nostalgia (1st set): "The game that broke the streak." The only reason oov died to that attack was because he was projecting the illusion of force with his initial group that got killed and July hit in a timing window where no zerg had done. oov was taking very considerable risk doing this, for not only did he expand early when Zergs were accustomed to being more aggressive rather than mass expoing, but he also was using his initial m&m to 'threaten' July when he was actually in no position to do any damage to July. oov's mental play backfired; July was too new for him, and undercut his old timing and thoughts completely. Boxer would not have lost that way. Nada would not have lost that way.
One of the best examples of oov's economic aggression is the, much underloved, oov vs Nada HanaFos MSL finals. While the only vod remaining is game 4 on Detonation, it still shows a lot about oov. On Detonation and up 2-1, Nada double proxy raxed oov and bunker rushed, while oov lifted off his rax while playing standard factory rush. oov somehow manages to hold off the intial rush, and tries to counterattack but is blocked while Nada lifts the raxes into oov's main and continues the harass. Nada's expo is nearly done when oov just started his, and is clearly ahead. oov, despite having lower troop count, immediately pressures Nada's nat, while double expanding after getting his nat mining. Nada is forced to react to oov's early pressure, and by the time he has enough troops to break oov's contain, oov's economic advantage has already kicked in and rolls him over. If that's not perfect play in a must-win situation, I don't know what is.
Game 5 was apparently a more extreme version of game 4 with Nada not gaining that early advantage to keep it reasonably close, but alas it along with the TG MSL LB finals vods no longer exist. It is quite a shame, because oov/nada is by far the best TvT rivalry in history, despite how one-sided it was. It was the ultimate example of intelligence vs raw skill.
Psychological understanding was why oov was so dominant. It is the reason why him and Savior were totally uncheesable, and while part of that was because they rightly share the title for "Best Defense," they also were so psychologically dominant that they were prepared for it at the right times. Just as it takes someone as smart as Boxer or Flash to cheese at the right times, it takes someone as smart as oov or Savior to see it coming every single time. For examples, look no further than rA vs oov on Requiem or Kingdom vs oov's whole final series. Similarly, oov's hidden expansions did not succeed because of luck, they worked because he outthought his opponents.
But oov's psychological play was certainly not limited to in-game strategy. It was his cocky, abrasive attitude that originally attracted the hate bandwagon, but this was just a mental ploy.
oov a response to a question on his cocky and confident attitude"Yes, on purpose, so does in interviews. E-sports is Mind-sports. Practice is important, while some factors outside the stage weigh much as well. As a progamer, I should be polite to media and fans, but I don't want to show the impression of weakness to people. I'm always confident of winning, so I express my confidence, which is helpful to the matches in my opinion."
oov vs July Shinhan finals is another great example of the wonders of mental preparation. Only one of two finals ever won on pure mental domination, the other being Flash vs Stork Bacchus, oov trounced his old enemy July in 3 mostly one-sided games.
The real reason for oov's victory over July. Outeating him by stealing Midas's food.
oov's use of interviews"I always used interviews strategically. That’s why I would mock my opponents, or pretend to be strong. I thought all of that was momentum, and I would even ask my fans to post things on message boards like “ILoveoov is really good” etc. When I played JulyZerg in the Starleague final, I thought mentality was particularly important. Honestly, I was scared and nervous. After I admitted he was a strong opponent and said honestly what I felt, I was able to go into the game with confidence and get a good result."
Many people blamed oov's victory on maps, but that was nothing of the sort. oov won on what people believed to be the imbalanced Cultivation Period; although July said he had found an answer and oov felt that the maps "had many zerg favoring aspects," with a sparks rush, designed to set the tone for the rest of the series and pre-empt whatever strategy July had planned. And set the tone he did. July's post-game interview shows exactly how big of an effect this was:
"I had practiced immensely for the match but after I lost the first game disappointingly I couldn't show what I had prepared. The reason I lost is because I never managed to do what I had in mind...I had come with a strategy I had prepared tearing my hair out. After I had lost the first game so shamefully I felt numb from there on even in the second game."
And oov agrees in a response to the outcome of the 2nd game:
"The second game would’ve been very difficult. I was able to win with both the psychological advantage and momentum I gained from winning the first game."
It is quite likely that this mental destabilization was the cause of July's uncustomary mistake in game 2 and poor army positioning in game 3, although game 3 oov also did a very intelligent upgrade rush to counter July's intelligent counter to fast expansion play. The effect of oov's bitter lesson to July is quite pronounced. In July's next finals vs Best, two and a half years later, July opens with a 5 pool to set the stage.
End of an Era
oov to me was the triumph of intelligence over mechanics. His apm was under 250, his micro often sloppy, his macro mechanics/multitasking good but not exceptional. If you want proof of that, just check out oov vs Yellow game 3. oov gains an amazing lead, and then nearly throws it away with the worst micro ever seen in a final. Only oov could get away with this. Of course he had solid micro at times, and his marine spread vs July on IntotheDarkness was one of the best pimpest plays ever, but in general, oov did not rely on his micro at all. If he microed well, great, but it was not essential for him to win.
Even after his Shinhan OSL and WCG '06 win, oov still managed to show some of the old brilliance. While the old master no longer had the motivation to put out the dominating success as in his past, he nevertheless was able to show it in isolated incidents. Check the vods list at the end for links to games vs FBH and DarkElf.
Above all else, this is reason for oov's success:
"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill."
The true Gorilla
How Gorillas celebrate.
While oov originally got his gorilla nickname for his long stature and lanky build, I have discovered long forgotten evidence that proves he really is a Gorilla.
"Yes, I am a cheapskate. I don't buy my teammates a drink or something usually. There are only 3 times I paid the bill. The first time I treated them some bananas and milk..."
Yes you read that right, bananas and milk. oov does not treat to expensive dinners, oov treats to bananas. Is there any doubt that oov is a gorilla now? If there is, just look at this:
give oov banana. oov macro. oov win. You know the deal.
If you still have doubt, this will solve all questions. Ok not really, but oov is the master of hilarious faces.
The oov face, need I say more?
Putting his gorilla nature aside, there are even more interesting aspects to oov. Bonjwa is not the only exclusive group that oov belongs to; he is also one of the very few progamers to be married. oov's uniqueness clearly shows here, for he never veered into the "path of night," and was able to maintain a relationship throughout his entire career as a pro.
iloveoov's exceptional path
iloveoov, Coach and Prophet
When oov retired in early 2008, people were noticeably disappointed that they would no longer get to see him work his magic. But for oov, coaching was just another way to showcase his brilliance.
"When I thought about being a coach, I thought I would be making build-orders myself, and teaching them to other players. I figured I would still be a trend-setter, just that I wouldn’t be on TV anymore"
Note that this interview was taken shortly after he became a coach back in Feburary. In 7 or so months, oov has invented a strategy that threatens to overturn modern tvz. When people had been doubting if there was anything left to innovate, oov comes back to prove them silly. Rather than saying anything here about 'the strat,' I will point you to this amazing article by Day.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is all the more striking because TvZ is one of the most stable matchups in history. Look at the previous TvZ trends: Boxer- 1 base fast tech with constant harass; oov- 2 rax expand; Boxer- Bunker rush; and now, oov- 1 base vulture drop into FE valkyrie+mech. Of course there are smaller ones, like Sync's 3 rax +1 sunk break or Flash's map specific mech, but these are the overall builds that have transformed the matchup completely and can be used even if your opponent knows its coming.
As a sidenote, can anyone possibly doubt that if these two played any other race, that race would be the most dominant in SC history? Yes, including random.
"I told all the terrans on the team that I want to train a winner, and make terran an important part of the team again. If there are no prospects, then I’ll have to find some new ones. Right now, Fantasy has the most potential. His strength is that he absorbs things very quickly, but his weakness is that he is too introverted. But we can change that."
How amusing this is when looking at the present situation. Fantasy, having completely demolished GGplay with oov's build, is looking at the finals with the heir of Yellow. In just 8 months, complete transformation from a nobody to an almost royal roader. And you're looking at the reason right here.
He's back!
Stork before the OSL Finals said "I will think of the finals as a match not only against Fantasy but also Coach Choi, which will push me to prepare even harder."
Has any coach ever had this effect? What other coach is practiced and thought against extensively by opponents? Has any coach been credited with a build that may turn a very stable matchup up on its head? There is no question that nobody understands the mental situation of the finals better than oov. And when people say that this is just because oov is a former, elite pro, I will point you in the direction of Kingdom. Hey Kingdom, you still around? Haven't heard a word about you since you've become a coach.
The changes to SKT1 since oov has become coach have become quite noticeable. The departure of Boxer in 2006, slump of Midas, and loss of motivation for oov spelled doom for the team in 2007. It shows in their record: in r1, they were a paltry 8th at 9-13. In r2, they upped that by going 9th at 8-14. For the most successful team that proleague had ever seen, this was an unthinkinable low.
And the difference was striking. The very first season oov was coach, SKT1 zoomed up to 2nd place at the exact opposite record, 14-8, and if not for Bisu randomly sucking in his best matchup, they would've been in the finals. While they are not doing too hot so far this current season due to zerg favoring maps and their zergs going for the longest losing streak possible (0-10 so far), the team is far more motivated and from their interviews, I doubt they will have any problem fixing it.
oov is back now, his motivation is here, especially with Boxer returning, it would be hardly surprising to see oov own again, even at a lesser scale. While some may dismiss him as going the path of Garimto, I believe that as long as he can overcome his wrist, oov will return again. This is one person who lives up to his goals, no matter what the pressure on him. And his goals are high.
"I wanted to make a team that Boxer wouldn’t be ashamed of. So when I signed my contract, I didn’t even look at the money. I just left that to the team. There’s about a year and a half left, and I want to enter the army as someone I can be proud of."
|
United States2186 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Vods] +
Note that I wanted to initially put the longer spoiler parts in sidebars, but I am very bad at using the code and had no idea how to make it work.
Any constructive criticism/advice/input very much appreciated. This is my first time doing anything like this so I'm sure there's plenty of things to improve on.
If this gets good reception then I will do at least two more articles on the others most similar to oov: Savior and Flash.
|
whoa, great ill read it after stork vs kal!
|
United States11637 Posts
|
|
|
very nice! very long but good read
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
|
brilliant article on my fav progamer
|
omg. you deserve to be a FE writer.
NICE READDDDD!
Wow that was very very good.
|
|
|
Final Edit please, haha. Great Read.
|
|
|
|
|
well oov was my first favorit player, but after sAviOr owned him so bad i change my race to zerg and sAviOr will by my idol for ever. But oov is still my favorit terran player.
|
Midas looks like a kid stolen of his candy, God he's thin, haha.
|
Absolutely awesome article!
|
This is a phenomenal article. Well done :D
|
|
|
CA10825 Posts
|
This article was a great read! Would read again.
|
|
|
Really nice article! 
|
Wow, that was awesome
Thank you
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
moving this back to broodwar
featured thread is where thread go to die
|
On October 30 2008 20:36 LosingID8 wrote:
monster article
Very well said, but yeah, Amazing article havent read all of it but thank you. If noone did an article like this, I probably would've tried my best to, but you did alot better than i would've ever done. Good job very enjoying read. oh btw,
It was not just older teamleagues where he pulled miracles: oov still holds (the tied) record for most proleague victories at 17.
You mean consecutive victories right?
|
|
|
Yeah, 17 consecutive victories, tied with Jaedong and Flash I think, and Sashin Toss Anytime.
|
AWESOME article on my favourite gamer!
iloveoov
|
|
|
United States17042 Posts
|
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Plexa dropping spawn broodling all over Tl lately 0_o. Really really nice write up!
|
Belgium6768 Posts
17 post epic article maker?
Great read dude! had me hooked
|
whoa 17 posts? who are you!
|
|
|
nice article, really great read
|
I have a 10k post and I have to somehow keep up with things like this?
nothx
Im halfway through and this article is insane
Might be the best article I have ever read on TL
Edit: ok I read the whole thing
this is the single greatest article on all of TL
wow
|
Good read indeed. But I am a bit confused about some details:
In one pic, we see he is 14-2 versus zerg, then you say he went 27-0 versus zerg before facing julyzerg. Is the 27-0 for a specific league only, or is there an error somewhere?
|
|
|
didn't read it yet but this looks simply amazing :o
|
FE plz?
I love that article.
|
On October 30 2008 22:47 jambonkingcool wrote:
Good read indeed. But I am a bit confused about some details:
In one pic, we see he is 14-2 versus zerg, then you say he went 27-0 versus zerg before facing julyzerg. Is the 27-0 for a specific league only, or is there an error somewhere?
The picture where he is 14-2 is msl i think
I really enjoyed this article
Oov is one of my favorite players
|
|
|
well someone was wrong about post counts...
|
|
|
Having read this a 2nd time I must point out that July did have terrible ZvT maps in the Shinhanbank OSL final. But yeah, you could tell on Julys facial expression when he typed out that first game; Oov had it in the bag. And nice to see you point out that July used this experience to his own good in his next final vs BeSt
And about former champions influencing up and coming players. Sync influenced Flashs BOs during his run in Bacchus, especially in his matches against Jaedong. Maybe not as visible and to the same extent Oov has influenced Fantasy given how popular and effective the vult/DS/valk build got though.
|
Wow! First loong article that Ive read in ages. Thanks!
|
I doubt he will be as good as before, just look at how the old guys are doing in Airforce... The new generation is a lot more competitve than before.
|
Korea (South)3086 Posts
Holy shit, amazing read. I didn't know Oov's record was that crazy. Overall 70+%? Goodness...
|
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Gonna keep this in BW for a while so they get move views. Featured Threads is like a wasteland for good threads :p
|
United States3824 Posts
Great Job. I particularly liked the tangent about boxer's one base play. As a newer person to the proleague scene I have always wondered why boxer wouldn't just FE for once.
Nice Read.
PS maybe there should be an article section on the website?
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
Ver, this is an amazing post, and I have massive respect for your ability to analyze oov's play and put that brilliance into words
Fucking props dude, this is one of the best posts I've ever seen
|
Wow amazing post man.
I always wanted to write something like this for oov but I am quite bad at articulating myself and I didn't want to write something sub par for my favourite player of all time.
<3<3
|
Make POP create a website popup that reads "READ THIS FUCKING THREAD"
Amazing thread~
|
very nice
this is on par with rage/bluzman's guest articles, and possible even with hot_bid or honestea at their best, who are the finest tl has offered since mensrea.
fix the mechanics and makes this a FE
|
This is an amazing article.
I hope that someday I can match the length of your writing and the depth of your analysis.
Very, very, very good job.
TLFE imo.
|
|
|
|
|
This made me want to watch the Ever OSL 04 finals again. Great article sir.
|
Hungary11277 Posts
Agree with FEing it. 17 post Guest writer!
|
|
|
Every time someone posts an article like this outside of TLFE, Hot_Bid dies a little inside.
|
27-0 is pretty damn sick! (His TvZ stats)
|
That was a really great post. Well done, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
|
holy fucking fuck.
Ver i fucking love you.
omg.
just wow.
|
This is clearly TLFE worthy.
Best sc read i've had oustide of TLFE.
|
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
Wow... I have to go to work soon so I can't read right now, but that looks like a very thorough recap of my favorite all-time player, so thank you!!
|
United States12235 Posts
This was a fantastic article. I didn't know oov was as hated as you've shown here, I've always liked him and considered him a protégé of Boxer. I also never saw oov's strategy beyond monster macro and skillful but inconsistent micro, aggressive and stealthy expansion is a new strategic concept to me, so thanks for enlightening me on that. Brilliantly done.
|
Great read all the way through. <3 oov
|
Nice article, but I disagree with the oov - nada comparison. Oov not a safe first player? Ok, what do players who play safe? Early rushes? Cheesing? No. They play safe by going defensive. And that's exactly what oov did. He relied on his superb defense to go fast exp knowing that once he resisted the first siege minutes, his macro would be virtually unstoppable. So basically> Fast exp> defend for 12 mins>macro the shit out of his opponent>autowin>go back in cage and fed bananas.
Nada does know how to play safe, but he is not a conservative player at all. Actually, if he is known for something is for his freestyle play and ability to adapt. And even up to date he has his own freestyle variations of the various bo. He has a great capacity for decision making, and he adapts almost instantly to any situation, reading the game flow perfectly. That's why he still hangs in there even today.
But great article anyhow.
|
Good read. Really appreciate it since I've only been following pro-SC closely since 2007.
|
wow, awesome article
gj, thanks!
|
Really nice article!
At last someone that understands Iloveoovs style. Iloveoov was not boring macro, he took economical riskes, like expanding while not having units to defend, etc.
|
Great write-up, you definitely should do more when you find a topic or player you are really into, because that is what I felt when I read this one.
|
United States2186 Posts
First off, many thanks to everyone. I'm glad that people liked this so much, so I will start my next project on Savior. This will be from a more broad angle, because Savior doesn't have as much play analysis work as oov did, thanks to Plexa. Unfortunately, no famous interviews of Savior come to mind, so I'm going to have to do a lot of searching and watching vods. This will take a fair while heh.
I had intended to make some controversy and spark discussion with my broad claims about iloveoov as the smartest ever, since Boxer can certainly lay claim to that as well. But there is none! How disappointing 
Yeah, I may only have 18 posts now but I've been lurking here since the halpmeh/broodwar.com era with various half year/year long breaks. So I am very familiar with pretty much everything that's been posted here.
On October 31 2008 04:29 Excalibur_Z wrote:
This was a fantastic article. I didn't know oov was as hated as you've shown here, I've always liked him and considered him a protégé of Boxer. I also never saw oov's strategy beyond monster macro and skillful but inconsistent micro, aggressive and stealthy expansion is a new strategic concept to me, so thanks for enlightening me on that. Brilliantly done.
Part of it certainly was just new-guy-beating-up-my-favorites syndrom, and I'm sure some smaller part was inherent tl-anti non-Boxer terran bias. But oov, like Savior, attracted a very peculiar amount of hate or apathy. I suppose hate is not the proper word though; it is more of: very few people speak good about him or the others who may are drowned out by the bandwagon, many people speak negatively about him, and many for a time refused to recognize his elite level.
My reasoning is that they were both psychologically dominant, defensive players, who rarely showcased awe-inspiring micro. The former two qualities are not easy to be impressed by, as you have to be specifically looking for it, while Boxer, Nada, or Casy's micro jumps out of the screen at you. Even Xellos, the most boring champion ever, got a ton of praise. Just like with Savior, it took until oov was no longer a big force in the progaming world and the years had passed to get the apathy to pass.
If you want a modern equivalent, look at Flash. He has a minority of fans, and he has a LOT of hate/apathy. Compared to Jaedong, who is a) zerg and b) showcases very flashy play, has more fanboys than one can count, it's striking. Flash is characterized as boring etc, but he is the neo-iloveoov. Hence why I'll be writing about him later
I don't want to go on a searching rampage like I had to make this article, but this was easy to find:
"Why the hate for ILoveOOv?"
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15888
If you really want to read a lot you can go through all the major live report threads, but that is a lot of reading heh. (oov vs yellow, boxer, and july finals would be the most flagrant)
On October 31 2008 04:53 RamenStyle wrote:
Nice article, but I disagree with the oov - nada comparison. Oov not a safe first player? Ok, what do players who play safe? Early rushes? Cheesing? No. They play safe by going defensive. And that's exactly what oov did. He relied on his superb defense to go fast exp knowing that once he resisted the first siege minutes, his macro would be virtually unstoppable. So basically> Fast exp> defend for 12 mins>macro the shit out of his opponent>autowin>go back in cage and fed bananas.
Nada does know how to play safe, but he is not a conservative player at all. Actually, if he is known for something is for his freestyle play and ability to adapt. And even up to date he has his own freestyle variations of the various bo. He has a great capacity for decision making, and he adapts almost instantly to any situation, reading the game flow perfectly. That's why he still hangs in there even today.
But great article anyhow.
I feel as if you only read half of what I said, if that.
When Nada is getting raped to the extent that he only lives by mass repairing 1 goliath vs 6 wraiths, will he take a gigantic risk and hidden expo while not building any turrets to invite further harass? When Nada is in a very vulnerable state, does he be aggressive and try to bluff the opponent?
And have you watched their game on Detonation? oov is way behind, and yet he immediately pressures Nada while Nada is sitting back turtling AND oov double expands again (4 expo to 2) while he is doing that. So basically oov is hurting Nada and expanding twice as much as him when oov has a weaker army. Yes that is perfectly safe play...right. Nada does not do that. Nada gets an advantage with amazing mechanics and just plays it out.
Basically Nada, up until he got trounced by oov over and oov, did a 1 build fits all formula. He even says that he only prepared 1 build per map and didn't vary it much. Nada definitely had his own unique style and yeah you saw variance from him, but he was never a player who won on psychology or strategy until oov beat him down so much. Then over time, when pure mechanics would not win anymore for him, he gradually began to adapt. And he credits that to oov, and oov's amazing game sense which he says he lacks. Nada of present is far different from when oov and Nada played all their series. I really really wish I could find that interview, but I've done so many searches and come up with nothing.
|
Iloveoov polarized the starcraft fans with his interviews, just look at some of the old threads discussing Iloveoov interviews. Some found him to be an arrogant prick, while others admired him for his confidence.
|
On October 31 2008 04:29 Excalibur_Z wrote:
This was a fantastic article. I didn't know oov was as hated as you've shown here, I've always liked him and considered him a protégé of Boxer. I also never saw oov's strategy beyond monster macro and skillful but inconsistent micro, aggressive and stealthy expansion is a new strategic concept to me, so thanks for enlightening me on that. Brilliantly done.
I actually liked Oov even back then, because he was being so impressive nearly every game - he showed some tremendous play in the EVER2004 OSL. Aye he was hated by many, mostly for 'stealing' titles from fan favorites like Yellow, Nada, and Boxer.
Oov was sort of like Stork is now - except more dominant obviously - if you replaced Storks silvers with golds you'd have Oov. Everyone knew he was fucking good, yet they found him boring. No doubt they are both very strong strategical players. Some other interesting similareties is that they both won WCGs and they have both fairly low APM evolving their play around solid macro. What separates them is the mental prowness Oov possess. He doesnt lose finals, Stork loses them.
I remember me and PoP had a discussion with Nazgul over the fact that Oov didnt show creativity like Reach, Nal_rA, Boxer, Yellow and GARIMTO, and therefore he was boring/disliked. Our final conclusion was that all upcoming Terrans would model their play after Oov and the other top "machineterrans" like Nada and Xellos. And that kinda goes today too. You might see the occasional UpMagic, and Lomo do some creative plays now and then, but overall you will see the Minds, forGGs, Canatas, and Midases, all modeling their game after Oov.
Oov is different though, because he is King Kong
or because Oov has a plan, he doesnt do it because it's "good". He decides what is good, and people will follow. Unlike someone like NaDa he knows his mechanics wont allow him to do anything, and therefore he analyzes and finds possibilities to give him economic adventage by always defending with sufficient numbers. And the others follow. The 2rax expand is the perfect example. People hating Oov back then also failed to notice what ToKoreaWithLove posts here right after the Oov vs Reach semifinals - taken from the semifinal thread.
Oov = Plan
On November 07 2004 11:00 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
oov impresses me a whole lot more than nada does, nada even admitted in an interview that he never changes his strats according to maps but just keeps up the same old thing. The oov we are seeing now is different from the oov we saw only months ago. It is easy to see that he is slowly turning into a hybrid of the best macro around and the lethal strategic mind of boxer.
|
You're a really good poster Ver, tons of knowledge, and I agree on like everything.
And a KTF fan too!
Cant wait for your articles on Savior and Flash.
|
Oov was the greatest warrior of the dynasty~
|
does it look like oov has a unibrow?
|
Fantastic~ I have really nothing else to say, except that this should be a FE. I'll look forward to future posts, Ver~!
|
damn this article was very nice :D
loved it ^^v
|
amazing. every time I read about Oov, he's even greater in my mind than before. Oov is the true genius terran?
|
This is a really great write up. There's not a whole lot of things i'll read from start to finish but this one i would re-read several times. I call final edit
|
On October 31 2008 07:50 Ghostclaws wrote:
amazing. every time I read about Oov, he's even greater in my mind than before. Oov is the true genius terran?
He's a really smart player like BoxeR,something NaDa lacks - but, makes up for with his sick mechanics.
I think NaDa said he would have wanted the strategical skill that oov and boxer have.
|
this really should be TLFE, i almost missed it =/
|
Awesome article.
Can't wait for another!
|
On October 31 2008 10:10 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 07:50 Ghostclaws wrote:
amazing. every time I read about Oov, he's even greater in my mind than before. Oov is the true genius terran? He's a really smart player like BoxeR,something NaDa lacks - but, makes up for with his sick mechanics. I think NaDa said he would have wanted the strategical skill that oov and boxer have.
Boxer has also said he envies Nada, so its a trio of jealousy >_>
|
really great write up! i actually read it all and i enjoyed all of it =D
|
Good read~
Can't wait for his return!!
|
On October 30 2008 19:29 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Final Edit please, haha. Great Read.
|
WOW, this has got to be one of the best articles I've ever read on TL.net. Absolutely amazing! None of the replies praising the OP, including mine, can truly appreciates for what you have just created. Please Please write more.
|
wow that was really detailed and long. great job. only thing i have to say is that oov isnt the 'most dominating of all time' since that title is clearly taken by savior =) otherwise awesomeee XD
|
Amazing read. Possibly the best article I've read on this website.
|
i never got the impression that oov was great at macro. i know that it's what he's known for and that it figures into one of his nicknames (cheater terran) but i just don't see it.
|
On October 31 2008 14:50 NahLGaE wrote:
wow that was really detailed and long. great job. only thing i have to say is that oov isnt the 'most dominating of all time' since that title is clearly taken by savior =) otherwise awesomeee XD
No, its Oov:
higher elo peak + more success in individual leagues (Oov has 3msl/2osl/1wcg golds, Savior has 3msl/1osl) along with proleague domination
Oov vs Reach game 5 was beautiful. Too bad arbiters haven't been "invented" yet.
|
thats a really really nice article
one thing i would like to point out is that oov also made the 8 rax build, even though boxer was the first to use it
|
United States2186 Posts
Lots of unrelated stuff to respond to. As always, thanks for all the support. It is very much appreciated and is good motivation for future projects (which there will be!).
Yes oov deserves the title of Genius Terran a lot more than Nada, at least in our context. From what I understand, and I might be wrong, the eastern definition of genius is more of someone who is just extremely skilled, which fits Nada perfectly: being the best terran mechanical player in history. Terran Emperor is more fitting for Boxer, the only other contestant for 'Genius Terran.' Flash has shown spurts of brilliance, but hasn't done it for long enough to compare. And after those oov/boxer/flash, no terran is really that smart.
oov was known for macro cause he didn't win by outmicroing them and people had to explain his victories somehow lol. But remember that oov did create the macro revolution, the biggest transformation in SC history. He had more units for other reasons than his ability to multitask and make lots of units efficiently, but that was how it looked like. Oh, and he was never wasteful with his forces and always conserved stuff, so his armies would always be larger than possible just by producing; this is in stark contrast to many Terrans who would make an army and throw it away, then do it again. This efficiency was emphasized by Savior as well. Heh, there's a fair amount I would've liked to add to this in the strategy section but I didn't want to put too much/ruin the flow.
Other stories.
oov was definitely more dominant than Savior. The only person who can be compared to oov in dominance is Flash; who I will post for comparison below.
The only thing Savior can lay claim to is that he dominated for slightly longer. But oov dominated much harder and did it from the very first games of his career. Compare the records/time lengths:
+ Show Spoiler +
oov in absolute peak form, up until facing Julyzerg 03/04/05-04/07/01. Nearly 15 months.
77-20 Overall (79%)
32-15 TvT (68%)
27-0 TvZ (100%)
18-5 TvP (78%)
oov start of career to ever osl victory 03/04/05-04/11/20. 19 1/2 months.
114-48 Overall (70%)
45-28 TvT (62%)
37-9 TvZ (80%)
32-11 TvP (74%)
Savior: Uzoo Msl to pre-Bisu 05/04/28-07/02/24 Nearly 22 months
90-41 Overall (69%)
25-16 ZvZ (61%)
33-15 ZvT (69%)
32-10 ZvP (76%)
Flash dominant streak 08/01/02-08/06/11 5 1/3 months Bacchus to pre-Luxury loss, where he was clearly exposed as losing the magic and playing standard. When in Bacchus Flash turned 'on' I can't really tell, so I just took the whole thing.
56-16 Overall (78%)
16-3 TvT (84%)
16-6 TvZ (72%)
24-7 TvP (77%)
Flash did his in a much shorter time, which a) shows that he did not have the longetivity of the others nor the accomplishments (2 titles vs 4+1 silver), but b) was ridiculously overused to the point of sheer exhaustion.
In terms of accomplishments, oov no question accomplished more. Superfights vs WCG/iTv. 5 golds and two bronze I believe, rather than 4 and 2 silvers. While I do not quite know who overall was better in proleague, oov or Anytime, oov also single-handedly won the allkill leagues, making him the best teamplay player ever. Savior, while doing quite well in proleague, was not oov level.
The main difference is that Savior is dominant of the sense of, why doesn't this guy lose! He went 3-2 or 2-1 in so many major series it was ridiculous. oov on the other hand...didn't lose. 27-0 TvZ. Let me repeat that again. 27-0, against a mix of absolute top notch zergs and medium level ones. NOTHING compares to that. Both played against the absolute best competition possible. Both beat down the bonjwas. But Savior dropped more random games for really random reasons and wasn't mentally strong for the same reasons oov was.
And oov came back after his bonjwa reign to take another title, and it's pretty obvious he would've won Cyon MSL too if Savior was not in the way. Savior, after the fall at the hands of Bisu, has never made another finals. At least until 2009, yes?
On October 31 2008 15:33 b_unnies wrote:
thats a really really nice article
one thing i would like to point out is that oov also made the 8 rax build, even though boxer was the first to use it
Seriously? If you remember where you saw that, please point me to it!
|
On October 31 2008 15:06 gg_hertzz wrote:
i never got the impression that oov was great at macro. i know that it's what he's known for and that it figures into one of his nicknames (cheater terran) but i just don't see it.
Read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=67579
+ Show Spoiler +The age old question regarding Oov is: how did he do it? How did he produce more units than anyone thought was reasonable? Oov's play was actually rather sloppy. Very often he would forget midgame supply depots or mismanage his money and be forced to build more factories to compensate. So very often those billions of factories that were an Oov trademark were the result of sloppy play. Cold hard unit production was not Oov's strongest point, not by a long shot.
Boxer's tutelage had taught Oov the fundamentals of the game and this honed his game sense above all other things. His game sense is what is revolutionary about Oov, not his unit production. He knew the right time to expand and pressure and when it was time to defend and consolidate gains. His razor sharp sense allowed him to push the boundaries of what was deemed acceptable, and was thus able to compensate for his lack of production/supply management. -Plexa
He made himself appear large which disrupted his opponents.
|
On October 31 2008 16:17 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 15:06 gg_hertzz wrote:
i never got the impression that oov was great at macro. i know that it's what he's known for and that it figures into one of his nicknames (cheater terran) but i just don't see it. Read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=67579+ Show Spoiler +The age old question regarding Oov is: how did he do it? How did he produce more units than anyone thought was reasonable? Oov's play was actually rather sloppy. Very often he would forget midgame supply depots or mismanage his money and be forced to build more factories to compensate. So very often those billions of factories that were an Oov trademark were the result of sloppy play. Cold hard unit production was not Oov's strongest point, not by a long shot.
Boxer's tutelage had taught Oov the fundamentals of the game and this honed his game sense above all other things. His game sense is what is revolutionary about Oov, not his unit production. He knew the right time to expand and pressure and when it was time to defend and consolidate gains. His razor sharp sense allowed him to push the boundaries of what was deemed acceptable, and was thus able to compensate for his lack of production/supply management. -Plexa He made himself appear large which disrupted his opponents.
i don't normally say this but holy shit that was helpful. Plexa has great insight.
|
|
|
On October 31 2008 13:27 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 10:10 Pulimuli wrote:On October 31 2008 07:50 Ghostclaws wrote:
amazing. every time I read about Oov, he's even greater in my mind than before. Oov is the true genius terran? He's a really smart player like BoxeR,something NaDa lacks - but, makes up for with his sick mechanics. I think NaDa said he would have wanted the strategical skill that oov and boxer have. Boxer has also said he envies Nada, so its a trio of jealousy >_>
Well i think everyone envy's NaDa, he's the most accomplished player in the history of SC ^^
|
Belgium6768 Posts
BUmping this back to top5
deserves all the love it can get
|
would be so fun to see him back in the game again!
|
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
holy smokes this was an incredible read. very nicely done!
10/10, highly recommended
|
looking back oov is better and better, I didnt like him a whole lot back then because i played terran and i felt like he killed the fun out of early game with the expand/defend everygame, HOWEVER, being a better player now and understanding the game more, its easy to see he was MILES ahead of everyone in terms of strategy and tactics.
|
|
|
Russian Federation386 Posts
|
United States17042 Posts
On November 01 2008 12:32 number1gog wrote:
Amazing. TLFE plz.
The problem is that threads tend to die in TLFE- aka no one looks at anything on the right hand sidebar (apparently), so no one comments on the op anymore.
|
I love the article... oov is my hero! (L)!
|
you made it sound like kingdom did nothing but didn't he help out best as much as oov helped out fantasy?
hence the name devil's apprentice
|
On November 01 2008 13:21 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:The problem is that threads tend to die in TLFE- aka no one looks at anything on the right hand sidebar (apparently), so no one comments on the op anymore.
With the FEs being on the front page now that might change.
|
Holy fucking shit. How the hell did I miss this. And why the fuck isn't this a Final Edit?
Ver man, my respect for you just skyrocketed. I noticed you're being extremely useful in the strat forum whenever there's a Terran problem, but this just blows my head.
The depth of this article is unbelievable, definitely one of the best I've ever read (Starcraft related).
again
HOLY FUCKING SHIT
epic
BUMP BUMP bitches
|
Wow, I completely missed this. It doesn't surprise me that you're the one who wrote it, either. Absolutely amazing job, 10/10 on writing this.
|
United States17042 Posts
This probably should be a final edit, but that's where articles go to die -_-;; it probably gets a lot more views here.
|
Great article. If edited, could be a TLFE. "Comparison" chart is a bit messy for example. But that is just nitpicking. One of the few TL articles (outside of TLFE and Strategy forum) that remain bookmarked. Bravo.
|
|
|
I will bump this until I get banned, switch IPs, register again and bump again until Manifesto personally comes to my house and drives a screwdriver through my head.
FE please!
|
Thanks for bumping this... I always nice to see my hero coming back to attention...
iloveoov has the best style ever~
|
Great article. I also don't know how I missed Day9's tlfe. That was another good article.
|
I think the reason this isnt a FE is because there was a short period at the time this article was posted where there were popping up alot of articles, and there would always be a bunch of people screaming "FE FE FE FE FE SPAM FE FE FE PLZ PLZ" even though not all of them were that good. I think this annoyed the moderators, and they wanted to set an example. Also, as pointed out by others; most good articles die when they become FEs.
It's not because this isnt a FE worthy article, because it most definitely is. In fact it's one of the three best starcraft articles I've ever read.
|
Thx 4 great article. Keep it goin'. :D
|
Nice bump: this was a great article; even better than most Final Edits.
|
Kudos to Ver for writing such an amazing article.
|
|
|
I thought I had seen this before, the penny didn't drop till I saw the date though. Great article worthy of some more bumping.
|
some little edits and this is easily one of the best final edits ever
|
|
|
One heck of an article.
But the Blackman comment. lol. Wow.
|
|
|
@ the OP: could you do one on Boxer? I know it's like coals to Newcastle in a way, but I'd be interested to see your take on him.
|
Awesome article !!! I've red it before, i'll read it again. By the way Ver, i remember you said a while ago that a Savior article is on the way. I'm looking forward to it, and i suppose i'm not the only one :D
|
Wonderfull article! Can't believe i missed it.
Makes me feel proud somehow. Great guy that oov is.
|
|
|
Amazing article, one of the best of it's kind that I have ever read.
|
Ver is DEFINITELY my favorite poster now
|
On October 30 2008 18:38 Ver wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Vods] +Note that I wanted to initially put the longer spoiler parts in sidebars, but I am very bad at using the code and had no idea how to make it work. Any constructive criticism/advice/input very much appreciated. This is my first time doing anything like this so I'm sure there's plenty of things to improve on. If this gets good reception then I will do at least two more articles on the others most similar to oov: Savior and Flash.
that oov post was so good I can't find anything for you to improve on!.
and by the posts by other users this is definitely good reception, so please, we beg you to do one on savior and flash!
|
On January 15 2009 02:54 qrs wrote:
@ the OP: could you do one on Boxer? I know it's like coals to Newcastle in a way, but I'd be interested to see your take on him.
Id like to see one on Boxer and Nada..
|
One for sAviOr is a must, before anything else!
|
United States2186 Posts
Savior part one is coming very very shortly. I assure you the wait is well worth it (especially on the other part(s) ). I was unfortunately delayed a month and a half by school.
I definitely will be editting this iloveoov because there's some more stuff I want to add. That comes after Savior though.
Future articles beyond Savior and Flash we shall have to see on and I'll address that possibility when these all get finished.
|
I just realized that there were 5/16 players in the Ever OSL. That's a lot.
iloveOOv starting for SKT1 in the Winners League!
|
Can't wait for Savior pt.1!
But has Flash really been around long enough to provide the material to equal what we've seen here with iloveoov? Assuming you're writing savior and flash in the same manner as you did here, IMHO your style seems to be tailored to a nostalgic look at the more experienced and accomplished. Someone as new as Flash seems a little bit anti-climatic after the likes of oov and Savior. I would have expected some one like Boxer or July.
But that's just my opinion, you're the artist.
Fantastic article btw. I've never been a big fan of oov but still had a great time reading it, this certainly deserved the bump.
|
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
Read it a couple months ago, but just read it again. Epic, epic read on my all-time favorite player ever (yes, even moreso than Boxer). Oov was the original badass, and I can never look at his pictures without just cracking up, oov is a goof. He just seems like he'd be one of the chillest people in the world to hang out with.
|
I was a big fan of OOV in his prime and I can clearly remember the time when Savior figured out his strategy and was devastating him every time they'd clash
Those replays of Savior leaving a trail of bodies ( IEF I think it was, where he 2-0'ed OOV in the finals) are the most amazing ones I've ever seen. I remember laughing it up with my IRL pals (all OOV fans) at that "IPX" dude who was demolishing the big terran. That IPX dude later became the almighty Savior, so all the more reason to look forward to your next article
And impressive read, btw... Keep it up !
|
Missed this the first time, thanks a bunch for bumping it, do you love oov? I know I do <3
|
|
|
Read this when it first came out and it was just as good the second time.
|
That's great ver. You rock man <3
|
I missed the entire iloveoov era. I left Korea when NaDa was dominating everything and I didn't start getting interested in the professional scene again until the MSL where Bisu wrecked Savior.
|
iloveoov is starting for the winners league lineup.. wonder how far he'll get
|
CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
i <3 oov
played w/ him 7 games (pgtour- ggom, he was like 120-10 at end of seas), noone ever owned me so badly pvt and it was nice to hear sorry from him after i waited like 15 minutes while he was shitting lol :D
|
|
|
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I am ashamed to have overlooked/ignored this article on many occasions (10+), and I am also ashamed to call myself a writer on this site after reading your work.
|
As lots have said before, congratulations, this was an amazing read.
|
|
|
The longer ver stays a member of the community the more he will be known, he is just too brilliant. This is one of the best reads in my over 6 years on teamliquid.
|
Omg this article is soo fuckin great. I'm gonna post a link at sc2gg to this because this is just a masterpiece, and I haven't even read it all ^^
|
ver when is the sAviOr article ready?????? I'm sooooooooo excited for it :D:D:D
|
how awesome that oov decides to play around when boxer came back
brothers united
|
Oov definitely still has a style, he is really cool to watch despite his play being sloppy. Talking about the games against ACE ofc.
|
Oov was sloppy? I didn't know that. Haha. I thought he had the neatest arrangements of supply depots--not one placed haphazardly.
I love Oov because of his game face! Jaw hanging, mouth open, tension visible.
But yes, awesome article, possibly the best I've read here, very insightful. Thanks for writing.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
oov pays attention to the important things.
|
On January 15 2009 15:16 Ver wrote:
Savior part one is coming very very shortly. I assure you the wait is well worth it (especially on the other part(s) ). I was unfortunately delayed a month and a half by school.
I definitely will be editting this iloveoov because there's some more stuff I want to add. That comes after Savior though.
Future articles beyond Savior and Flash we shall have to see on and I'll address that possibility when these all get finished.
Great to know you are planning to write an article about Flash. I always enjoy reading your posts (they are very insightful) and I will be waiting eagerly for the one about Flash.
|
legendary post man great read
|
On January 19 2009 09:00 Prose wrote:
Oov was sloppy? I didn't know that. Haha. I thought he had the neatest arrangements of supply depots--not one placed haphazardly.
I love Oov because of his game face! Jaw hanging, mouth open, tension visible.
But yes, awesome article, possibly the best I've read here, very insightful. Thanks for writing.
Sloppy as in late game multitask
You would see him walk into lurkers and be really late in moving back
|
Nice article. The bump seems nice since + Show Spoiler +Oov's ownage against ACE.
|
senseless bump
when's the savior article done?:D
|
|
|
Oov was my fav terran apart from Boxer. Leta is coming up tho.
|
well this sure was a nice read about iloveoov... I knew most of the info about him but I just learned something more.... so we got a nice BoxeR article, NaDa article, this ovv article, we're missing one bowjwa now.. and that's Savior...
|
On February 11 2009 10:27 QuickStriker wrote:well this sure was a nice read about iloveoov... I knew most of the info about him but I just learned something more.... so we got a nice BoxeR article, NaDa article, this ovv article, we're missing one bowjwa now.. and that's Savior...
It's coming up dude^^
And it will be very thorough
|
Wow, Ver, I love this article (found it in your signature after your helpful posts in my thread about Jangbi/fantasy). This knowledge you've provided about the "Art of War" mind-games in Starcraft really opened my eyes, and makes me want to read Sun Tzu. Plexa's articles helped me understand iloveoov's history in the scene... but you helped me understand his genius.
As a Jaedong fan, I'd love you forever if you someday wrote a similar article about Jaedong : ) I have heard rumors that he performed some mental trickery during his dominance as well.
|
wow Ver didn't know you created this great thread ^_^
|
neeed..... savior.... article... aaarghhd *dies of attrition in front of the computer*
|
On October 30 2008 21:22 Plexa wrote:
moving this back to broodwar
featured thread is where thread go to die
On October 30 2008 23:55 Kennigit wrote:
Gonna keep this in BW for a while so they get move views. Featured Threads is like a wasteland for good threads :p
Time to feature this yet?
|
Sigh, I was so excited to read another article, and then I realized it's the old one. :[
|
oov's 27-0 v Z is the sickest record in progaming no doubt, I mean seriously how is that even possible?
|
wow how did i miss this in the first place
it's massive o.o
|
oov in his prime raped like none other did
|
holy crap great *old* read LOL cant believe i missed it
|
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Yeah oov had a lot to do with me dropping starcraft / following progaming for 2-3 years.
I hated him so much back then, but today I truly respect him as a legendary progamer.
|
Russian Federation4447 Posts
On October 26 2009 10:56 KristianJS wrote:
oov's 27-0 v Z is the sickest record in progaming no doubt, I mean seriously how is that even possible?
TvZ before Savior was "imbalanced". Just like PvZ before Bisu was a complete nightmare.
Zergs had no idea how to play. There were no "standard" builds, because any standard zerg build had an standard Terran build that would counter it easily.
I would say it took a complete evolution in mutalisk micro + defiler usage to even the matchup.
Without those 2 skills, zergs wouldn't be able to win a game off Terran.
|
Great article. Thanks Ver, ive never seen oov in this light before.
|
iloveoov's wife is prettay fine
|
I don't agree with the premise that although Oov's genius is harder to discern than Boxer's that it's greater. I think the more compelling the genius, the easier it is for a casual fan to recognize it. But that's semantics - they're both amazing. You can't argue that Oov wasn't an amazing competitor.
|
I always wondered why this wasn't a FE.
|
Oh wow I never saw this thread until now either. Great read
|
Ver is the best poster on TL
I would pay money to read Savior/Flash articles by you Ver, are you still planning on writing them? =)
|
Thank you Ver! I started to follow the proscene closely since Oov's early prime days but never understood his games well. This article is such an eye-opener with very sharp analysis.
I'm surprised this article hasn't been added to Final Edits or Featured Threads at least? Personally I like to read articles with solid analysis like this than the fancy writing ones.
|
United States17042 Posts
On October 26 2009 13:45 cascades wrote:
I always wondered why this wasn't a FE.
it really should be, although fe's are kind of the place where threads go to die 
|
For the sake of posterity, this needs another bump.
|
Nice, thanks for the bump. I hadn't seen this before, but it puts things into perspective with all this discussion about Flash's streak.
|
|
|
Haha, I love the bus picture. :D
oov <3
|
On October 26 2009 10:56 KristianJS wrote:
oov's 27-0 v Z is the sickest record in progaming no doubt, I mean seriously how is that even possible?
People should stop saying it was 27-0, it wasn't it was 27-3
|
Oh man, this is great. Oov is like the least acknowledged amongst the four Bonjwas. Boxer is a legend amongst legends. Nada is the most successful of all time. Savior is the most recent - hence the greatest of TL following. Oov seems to be the underdog. I knew nothing about his career except that he turned Starcraft into the modern (and some may say boring) macrofest.
This article is very enlightening.
|
On October 26 2009 11:26 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 10:56 KristianJS wrote:
oov's 27-0 v Z is the sickest record in progaming no doubt, I mean seriously how is that even possible? TvZ before Savior was "imbalanced". Just like PvZ before Bisu was a complete nightmare. Zergs had no idea how to play. There were no "standard" builds, because any standard zerg build had an standard Terran build that would counter it easily. I would say it took a complete evolution in mutalisk micro + defiler usage to even the matchup. Without those 2 skills, zergs wouldn't be able to win a game off Terran. Really, thats weird, cause I can think of a lot of builds that are completely valid even now a days that are pre savior.
Edit: but it was completely imbalanced, yes.
|
On December 16 2009 07:58 Gangrel wrote:
this thread is amazing can't believe I missed it the first time around
Ver ---> best poster in TL.net history?
vgl-cow would laugh
|
nice bump, i missed reading this
read it again
|
That picture with his win ratios is appalling. 78% overall?!
|
On December 16 2009 07:58 Gangrel wrote:
this thread is amazing can't believe I missed it the first time around
Ver ---> best poster in TL.net history?
Yes, and as much as I love funny Belgian cows, VGL YOU GOT OWNED.
|
ye fast expo imba 27-0 :d
|
On December 16 2009 12:51 asl-ninja wrote:
ye fast expo imba 27-0 :d
for the nth time, it's 27-3
-_-
|
|
|
Very interesting article. It's weird that he was known as the "macro monster" but according to this, his macro wasn't all that impressive. I suppose saying " economics master" would be more accurate, it's just too bad that it's not as catchy.
|
I totally expected the Greatest Gorilla.
Other than that, amazing write up. I can't explain how fantastic it is in words, other than the ones I'm writing as of now.
|
On December 16 2009 13:16 horang3 wrote:
Very interesting article. It's weird that he was known as the "macro monster" but according to this, his macro wasn't all that impressive. I suppose saying " economics master" would be more accurate, it's just too bad that it's not as catchy.
i think its more a sematic* (is that the word) issue. Most people think macro is just having your rax/fact/ccs not idle/keeping your mins low and not missing your supply depots but macro is much much more with expo timings and knowing when to add additional production buildings stuff like that. While the former is something oov wasnt the best at actually in some fpvods he was even subpar in that aspect the latter he had no equal too. Flash is probably the closest.
I remember while watching oov vs rage on colosseum he first introduced his new tvp build. He got a huge lead from a vult raid but later on in the game it really showed how his mechanics have faltered because he got pretty sloppy at the end.
Just read this again and just noticed again what oov was. Actually wondered what if oov played chess or poker hehe.
|
On December 16 2009 10:07 dukethegold wrote:
Oh man, this is great. Oov is like the least acknowledged amongst the four Bonjwas. Boxer is a legend amongst legends. Nada is the most successful of all time. Savior is the most recent - hence the greatest of TL following. Oov seems to be the underdog. I knew nothing about his career except that he turned Starcraft into the modern (and some may say boring) macrofest.
This article is very enlightening.
the least acknowledged? eh? i am not sure about others, but in my opinion, iloveoov was the most "feared and dominant" bonjwa in the history of all starcraft.
seriously, this guy was a monster, man. boxer revolutionized the beginning of starcraft, nada has been constantly dominant throughout, savior was a bonjwa for awhile, but still, iloveoov,,, was nuts man... it was just hella unbelievable watching his games... like whenever you watch his games, iloveoov and his opponent seem to be playing at an equal level, but after a bit into the game, you just see iloveoov's army in huge numbers just run over his opponent's army.. it was just amazing to see how he could produce so many units.. a cheater he is.. really.
|
he meant it as in least acknowledged on tl i think which is true.
|
Wasn't oov sick at some point in the past year? Whatever happened to that, was it serious or something minor? Anyone know?
|
amen to this awesome article
Economic aggression is soooo sexy
|
On December 16 2009 14:06 GreEny K wrote:
Wasn't oov sick at some point in the past year? Whatever happened to that, was it serious or something minor? Anyone know?
I think he practiced so much for the Heritage League, he burnt out (fainted).
|
Ilove Iloveoov....
hes my fav progamer of all time... his imba games were amazing to watch and how he crushed any army with his humongous ARMY :O
|
wwhaaatttt? Oov was married?? thats pretty amazing!!1 and nice bump : )
|
On December 16 2009 15:42 chongu wrote:
wwhaaatttt? Oov was married?? thats pretty amazing!!1 and nice bump : )
What is with the past tense? Did I miss something?
|
|
|
He meant the act of marrying, not the marital status.
|
I was expecting the title to be "iloveoov: The Greatest Gorilla"
|
thx for bumping this up. was really nice to read.!
|
Ver did total justice with this peice. I'm sure I posted that earlier in this thread . True master peice!
|
bump for amazing read.
I read the similar article for savior a month back and of course I've seen 50-thousand Boxer highlight reels but I've been wondering for a while why iloveoov was so good. Between this post and Plexa's amazing writeup referenced by the OP. All questions answered. ty Ver!!!
|
I'm here fulfilling my quarter-annual pledge to bump this thread so everyone can enjoy the awesomeness of oov and of our very talented Ver
|
Amazing article! Great read Thanks for it.
|
Is the quote "When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape" real?
|
As far as I know, yes. It's from an oov interview.
|
great bumb, I just read it again. This thread really needs to be turned into a final edit already.
|
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Fuck yeah amazing bump!
I love Ver, where are you
^I agree with Ideas...
|
yeah maybe then I can get a life and stop bumping this
|
nice article, first time reading it.
|
omg i didnt read the date and im new here but heard a lot about this guy
and i was "OMG HE IS RETURNING!!!!!"
then i saw TLPD, he didnt play a game since the IEFs Star Invitational in 2009
then i checked the date of the article
then i was sad
|
I was shocked when I read this too!
En? Returning???
Then I saw the date, I saw old progamers face.... kkkk ahhh
|
So great!
The articles that come out to describe iloveoov are wonderful reads! Props to you
|
great article/stat sheet, man
jesssuuuusss @ oov's win rate. even flash only has 71% and at one point this guy has 78%?
and my god at his 27-0 tvz record. 100% O.o i knew he was monstering things i just didn't know about THAT record
|
Ahhh I want to see him play even if it's just in exhibition.
Read this before but read it again bc it's so good
|
Thanks for bump. Great article. He was TvZ monster it seems.
|
On May 31 2010 19:37 rugmonkey wrote:
Thanks for bump. Great article. He was TvZ monster it seems.
There is no "it seems", he WAS a Monster in TvZ and not only in TvZ
|
On October 30 2008 18:37 Ver wrote:
oov's use of interviews"I always used interviews strategically. That’s why I would mock my opponents, or pretend to be strong. I thought all of that was momentum, and I would even ask my fans to post things on message boards like “ILoveoov is really good” etc. When I played JulyZerg in the Starleague final, I thought mentality was particularly important. Honestly, I was scared and nervous. After I admitted he was a strong opponent and said honestly what I felt, I was able to go into the game with confidence and get a good result."
Reminds me of Muhammad Ali.
Excellent Write up. Thx
|
this is a really good read! you really have a hard-on for oov!
|
I was looking for this article under Final Edits the other day but couldn't see it. Then I remembered the quote by oov and search for "into a rape" -> happy face.
|
I love oov - He makes winning look so easy.
|
Awesome bump and article, thanks so much Ver!!!
Keep em coming!
|
Loved this article, many thanks for the bump.
|
I always love the pics of Monster Terran in this article. Thanks for the bump lol
|
iloveoov is the greatest bonjwa after nony
|
That 2nd to last picture in the suit serves well as the definition of baller.
EDIT: Full stops are important.
|
great article. Ive already read it twice. Oov is a million times better than Flash. Just Saying.
|
AH, read it again and enjoyed every bit of it. Ver, can you do more please> (about Flash and his pwnaging style would be nice. be sure to incorporate the Nal_Ra > Flash game ok?)
|
Great read, really displays why OOV was so dominant. I still love Nada a lot more, but it was a good article about one of the greatest players in history.
|
|
|
Thanks for *bump*
Awesome Article <3 (it is best the 3'rd time you read it )
|
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
After seeing this I realized I had never actually finished reading this article. So I did. And now I'm bumping so that others can read it.
Ver'd you go?
|
Yeah, I never seen this article before I don't think. I read the plexa one a couple of times, but missed this one some how.
|
That was a great read, thanks ver.
I've been referencing ever 2004 a lot in recent posts, but that last line makes it even more emotionaly impactful.
It's great to know that even if he isn't in the booth, we may see the latest addition to the iloveoov playbook any time Fantasy or ssak pick up a mouse. (wonder if he ever said "hey best, try this buld out, hmm? Man if oov started working on builds for zerg and toss... damn. "only 3 hatches before pool? lol!")
|
|
|
United States10097 Posts
midas is like "mommy, he just stole my candy!!!" lololol midas is sooo cute.
Oov's TvZ is godly because of the "oov build". sigh, why does it never work for me...
|
oov is the reason i like skt and bw in general
|
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
It's been in writers' for a while. Can't really say whether or not it's going to be released yet.
|
Oh man, after rewatching the games from the OSL finals and just had to bump this thread again to pay my respects to Iloveoov. He was the man that modeled Fantasy, + Show Spoiler +he's the genius behind Fantasy's gameplan and Fantasy's first victory at OSL shows just how intelligent iloveoov still is. The two first games were blind counters to Stork, giving him an enormous BO edge, and i'm certain that the last game map abuse was also designed by him.
In just 8 months, complete transformation from a nobody [Fantasy] to an almost royal roader. And you're looking at the reason right here.
+ Show Spoiler +And this time, it's actually true
|
United States2186 Posts
Seeing the number of times this has been bumped is heartwarming and has given me the motivation to actually write again, something I haven't had for almost a year now. Thanks everyone
It may or may not be released in April or sometime this century, I don't know nor care anymore. If you or anyone else wants to read it just pm me.
On January 31 2011 07:26 legaton wrote:Oh man, after rewatching the games from the OSL finals and just had to bump this thread again to pay my respects to Iloveoov. He was the man that modeled Fantasy, + Show Spoiler +he's the genius behind Fantasy's gameplan and Fantasy's first victory at OSL shows just how intelligent iloveoov still is. The two first games were blind counters to Stork, giving him an enormous BO edge, and i'm certain that the last game map abuse was also designed by him. Show nested quote +In just 8 months, complete transformation from a nobody [Fantasy] to an almost royal roader. And you're looking at the reason right here. + Show Spoiler +And this time, it's actually true
Hah, only took three years!
|
I want to read it. Please post it in this thread or make a new thread. Thank you.
|
Oov is, without a doubt, the "clutchest " player of all time.
Great read, thanks!
|
You need to write something epic about Flash.
|
oov vs July Shinhan finals is another great example of the wonders of mental preparation. Only one of two finals ever won on pure mental domination, the other being Flash vs Stork Bacchus, oov trounced his old enemy July in 3 mostly one-sided games.
+ Show Spoiler +Make that 3 finals.
Though of course, Fantasy/Stork had oov written all damn over it. It was sheer brilliance
|
I mean I want to read Ver's version on Savior. Please post it here or on new thread. thanks.
|
On January 31 2011 08:01 Ver wrote:It may or may not be released in April or sometime this century, I don't know nor care anymore. Is that just because you lost interest after so long or is it because of the match-fixing scandal?
|
On January 31 2011 23:33 xxpack09 wrote:oov vs July Shinhan finals is another great example of the wonders of mental preparation. Only one of two finals ever won on pure mental domination, the other being Flash vs Stork Bacchus, oov trounced his old enemy July in 3 mostly one-sided games.+ Show Spoiler +Make that 3 finals.
Though of course, Fantasy/Stork had oov written all damn over it. It was sheer brilliance
I'd say July vs Best is there as well.
|
On February 01 2011 00:33 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 23:33 xxpack09 wrote:oov vs July Shinhan finals is another great example of the wonders of mental preparation. Only one of two finals ever won on pure mental domination, the other being Flash vs Stork Bacchus, oov trounced his old enemy July in 3 mostly one-sided games.+ Show Spoiler +Make that 3 finals.
Though of course, Fantasy/Stork had oov written all damn over it. It was sheer brilliance I'd say July vs Best is there as well.
I remember July saying that he never had the mental edge, that's why he trash talked in the pre-game interviews. He must have learned it from oov, the hard way.
|
On January 31 2011 07:26 legaton wrote:Oh man, after rewatching the games from the OSL finals and just had to bump this thread again to pay my respects to Iloveoov. He was the man that modeled Fantasy, + Show Spoiler +he's the genius behind Fantasy's gameplan and Fantasy's first victory at OSL shows just how intelligent iloveoov still is. The two first games were blind counters to Stork, giving him an enormous BO edge, and i'm certain that the last game map abuse was also designed by him. Show nested quote +In just 8 months, complete transformation from a nobody [Fantasy] to an almost royal roader. And you're looking at the reason right here. + Show Spoiler +And this time, it's actually true
I'm not going to take anything from OOv's as mentor, but ironicaly, the most important and influental Fantasy's design- his contribution to modern late terran play against Zerg (with heavy or even crucial cooperation with Flash) , was not OOv's invention at all. It was the thing that came from pure desperation. Remember his tank banking, that everybody were lauthing at from first untill it somehow worked? He made that to survive the legendary SPL final game vs JD after his initial plan totaly broke after dissastrous sunken break. Later it evolved with many variants (denchanic f.e., that was fantasy's own design, what fantasy confirmed) and now late transition to mech is standard answer against zerg hive tech.
But even that shows how great genius he is. He totally changed Fantasy's mindset to let him think unconventionally. That what makes him the greatest terran mind in the history.
|
United States2186 Posts
On January 31 2011 23:28 Holgerius wrote:You need to write something epic about Flash.
Already been started awhile ago and now with my motivation back it will get finished. ETA is who knows.
On February 01 2011 00:30 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 08:01 Ver wrote:It may or may not be released in April or sometime this century, I don't know nor care anymore. Is that just because you lost interest after so long or is it because of the match-fixing scandal?
Not allowed/postponed due to matchfixing scandal. It's been done since the day before the scandal broke.
On February 01 2011 02:28 Caos2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 00:33 Holgerius wrote:On January 31 2011 23:33 xxpack09 wrote:oov vs July Shinhan finals is another great example of the wonders of mental preparation. Only one of two finals ever won on pure mental domination, the other being Flash vs Stork Bacchus, oov trounced his old enemy July in 3 mostly one-sided games.+ Show Spoiler +Make that 3 finals.
Though of course, Fantasy/Stork had oov written all damn over it. It was sheer brilliance I'd say July vs Best is there as well. I remember July saying that he never had the mental edge, that's why he trash talked in the pre-game interviews. He must have learned it from oov, the hard way.
Yeah July credited his past series with nada and oov in shaping his play for Ever '08. It was pretty funny how both players won in very similar ways 3-0 (iops/shinhan bank 0).
On February 01 2011 03:16 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 07:26 legaton wrote:Oh man, after rewatching the games from the OSL finals and just had to bump this thread again to pay my respects to Iloveoov. He was the man that modeled Fantasy, + Show Spoiler +he's the genius behind Fantasy's gameplan and Fantasy's first victory at OSL shows just how intelligent iloveoov still is. The two first games were blind counters to Stork, giving him an enormous BO edge, and i'm certain that the last game map abuse was also designed by him. In just 8 months, complete transformation from a nobody [Fantasy] to an almost royal roader. And you're looking at the reason right here. + Show Spoiler +And this time, it's actually true I'm not going to take anything from OOv's as mentor, but ironicaly, the most important and influental Fantasy's design- his contribution to modern late terran play against Zerg (with heavy or even crucial cooperation with Flash) , was not OOv's invention at all. It was the thing that came from pure desperation. Remember his tank banking, that everybody were lauthing at from first untill it somehow worked? He made that to survive the legendary SPL final game vs JD after his initial plan totaly broke after dissastrous sunken break. Later it evolved with many variants (denchanic f.e., that was fantasy's own design, what fantasy confirmed) and now late transition to mech is standard answer against zerg hive tech. But even that shows how great genius he is. He totally changed Fantasy's mindset to let him think unconventionally. That what makes him the greatest terran mind in the history.
The funny thing is oov was doing a very similar lategame mass tank defense idea back in 2005, eg here and here. Pretty crazy isn't it?
But in actuality the lategame mech switch was from midas (a really underrated innovator) and fantasy. Fantasy did it once against zero in january '10 then midas started doing a more refined version every game in feburary and beyond. That bio -> mech switch around defiler timing is much different from the sk terran -> fast 4th with switch into 3-4 fact tanks that was shown in fantasy/jaedong and then further developed by flash against calm and others.
Ultimately it's really hard to judge oov's exact influence on fantasy except when he gets credited for a build. Fantasy is hardly a robot obeying orders, but at the same time like you said, the fantasy who never had oov as a coach would think completely differently and wouldn't even be a comparable player. You clearly notice a lot of similarities with their series approaches as well: I don't think it's a coincidence that fantasy is an absolute monster in series but very inconsistent in single games. The extent of his influence is more certain with people like canata who are mediocre their entire career, never getting anywhere in leagues then suddenly makes msl ro8 and comes within inches of knocking out jaedong with very clear oov builds.
|
On February 01 2011 04:38 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 23:28 Holgerius wrote:You need to write something epic about Flash. Already been started awhile ago and now with my motivation back it will get finished. ETA is who knows.
Cool, I'm really looking forward to that.
|
Awesome stuff, just read this for the first time Ver! Incredible writeup, oov truly was the mastermind of mindfucking.
Can't wait to see the brilliance you've got hidden for Savior and Flash, your writing is amazing Ver!
|
It's amazing how oov, as tall as he was, did not try playing basketball. lol
I guess Starcraft is his destiny
|
Great writeup, happy that someone dug this up.
|
This article was the one which originally got me into BW due to how epic it made the rivalries of the elite players seem. I'd also love to see a sAviOr one now that his career has come to an end and the whole story is written.
|
This bump took me back to this great article ^^
Making me feel old... how long ago this seemed. Can't wait for you to get your Flash article done Ver!
|
Wow, what an amazing read. Wondering, how I haven't found this before O_O
Well done, really enjoyed reading this!
|
I really enjoyed this. I remember when I first got into watching StarCraft replays, back when it was possible to consistently find replays of top Korean players like Boxer, Yellow, Nada, iloveoov, as well as a number of well-known foreign players (not to mention fake replays aplenty). Even then, iloveoov's ability to get out units impressed me even though I was watching in a vacuum - before I knew about TL or what the MSL / OSL were or what PL (or whatever the precursor to that was called). Nada was the same way - his M&M and Science Vessels against Zerg, which I later learned was called SK Terran, seemed invincible, with his exceedingly rare losses to Zerg seeming like mere flukes.
Since getting back into StarCraft, I've really enjoyed reading articles like this and TLFE's that detail the side of StarCraft that I missed when I was in my early teens - the development of new strategies that I missed when watching mostly for the entertainment value of watching impressive micro / macro and big battles, the human side of the rivalries, and so forth.
Excellent article, and I look forward to the Flash article you said you're working on.
|
Awesome article! Glad there is something like this on the best T player of all time ^^
|
Wow, thanks for bumping this. I didn't see this when it came out.
|
FanTaSy vs. Stork in 2008 and 2011...
Isn't that just the heir of the BoxeR lineage vs. the heir of the yellOw lineage..? Stork's no Nal_rA... but I would love to see him get the Silver Badge...
BoxeR hand-picked oov for a reason, and I guess that this was it. oov's simply the deepest-impacting Terran in history. Just like Shark for Zerg and... uh. Don't know any Protoss equivalents really. Maybe rA.
|
On February 13 2011 06:11 IntoTheheart wrote:
FanTaSy vs. Stork in 2008 and 2011...
Isn't that just the heir of the BoxeR lineage vs. the heir of the yellOw lineage..? Stork's no Nal_rA... but I would love to see him get the Silver Badge...
BoxeR hand-picked oov for a reason, and I guess that this was it. oov's simply the deepest-impacting Terran in history. Just like Shark for Zerg and... uh. Don't know any Protoss equivalents really. Maybe rA.
I'd say KIMDONGWOO is one of the deepest-impacting Zergs since he coached GoRush, Savior, Effort, and now Hydra.
|
On February 13 2011 06:11 IntoTheheart wrote:
FanTaSy vs. Stork in 2008 and 2011...
Isn't that just the heir of the BoxeR lineage vs. the heir of the yellOw lineage..? Stork's no Nal_rA... but I would love to see him get the Silver Badge...
BoxeR hand-picked oov for a reason, and I guess that this was it. oov's simply the deepest-impacting Terran in history. Just like Shark for Zerg and... uh. Don't know any Protoss equivalents really. Maybe rA.
Part of what makes oov so great is that there is no one that comes close to his accomplishments both as a player and a coach.
But if we were to look for counterparts:
KIMDONGWOO is a good choice for zerg (although he did nothing as a player in comparison). Far protoss the outlook is even worse. I guess Kingdom. He at least won one title, and mentored two of the dragons (even if it was for only a little while).
|
On February 13 2011 06:11 IntoTheheart wrote:
FanTaSy vs. Stork in 2008 and 2011...
Isn't that just the heir of the BoxeR lineage vs. the heir of the yellOw lineage..? Stork's no Nal_rA... but I would love to see him get the Silver Badge...
BoxeR hand-picked oov for a reason, and I guess that this was it. oov's simply the deepest-impacting Terran in history. Just like Shark for Zerg and... uh. Don't know any Protoss equivalents really. Maybe rA.
Stork never passed under Yellow's tutelage, so although he is a part of the Kong line, I wouldn't call him Yellow's heir.
And I love Ra, but Stork has impressed me to that level. Stork is the only top player of today to have bridged the generational gap. That is, he was a top player even before Savior became bonjwa. Surviving and remaining a top player across generations is really hard to do in a game that changes this much for a number of reasons.
But I'm glad Fantasy won. He deserved a gold medal to his name and now he's got one.
|
``Stork is the only top player of today to have bridged the generational gap.``
I would say JulyZerg and NaDa have by the same token as well.
|
United States2186 Posts
Savior has influenced Zerg more than oov has Terran. oov has innovated much more than anyone yes, but the presence of Boxer/Nada/Midas/Flash have diluted the impact of oov's creations. Terran would still be awesome even without oov. With oov they are utter monsters. However, for Zerg, Savior completely changed everything.
Pre-Savior titles (2000-2005): P: 8 T: 17 Z: 3 3/28 (11%)
Savior and Beyond (2005-Present): P: 4 T: 6 Z: 15 15/25 (60%)
This is not 100% updated but I don't know when I did it and don't want to relook at everything. Suffice to say if you add a few more T titles and 1 or 2 more Z titles it still looks absurd.
Protoss hasn't really had any players of their caliber: the closest are Kingdom rA Reach and Stork but none are anywhere remotely comparable in ability or impact. I feel like the lack of such a dominant thinker has severely crippled Protoss evolution their entire history and is why they are so underrepresented title wise.
|
Not all of that is due to Saviour, of course. You think July and Jaedong didn't have some responsibility for that?
|
On February 13 2011 16:32 nodule wrote:
Not all of that is due to Saviour, of course. You think July and Jaedong didn't have some responsibility for that?
Jaedong is a post-savior zerg who was undoubtedly influenced by him, especially his ZvT. His point was how savior innovated the game to bring Zerg, the most disenfranchised race, to the most dominant race afterwards.
|
United States2186 Posts
July's major achievements were counted in the first phase. He and Gorush did great and everyone else still sucked. It was only after Savior that Zergs actually had some idea of what they are doing.
Savior changed how Zergs thought about the game and approached matchups, particularly ZvT. It's no coincidence that all these one-shot wonder Zergs started winning titles after him and none before him.
|
Re-read this article after seeing the new one about savior... best two posts on all of teamliquid.
also a bump for all the newbies who never saw this
|
needs another bump in light of recent announcement of his retirement. truly one of, of not the greatest (considering his influence as a coach), force in brood war of all time.
|
Awesome Article, I agree Oov doesn't get enough credit sometimes. Probably one of my fave players of all time
|
Oov gets more credit than any other player for developing broodwar.
And he deserves every bit of it.
|
|
|
Oov, one of the best.
You will be missed.
|
We better bump the FE too.
|
oov was always my favorite player since watching him stomp yellow 3-0 in his first MSL (while wearing that white glove)
|
Long Live the cheater Terran
|
When I got to the end .. I couldn't stop smiling at the brilliance of someone I never knew. The longer I'm on TL the longer I wish I hadn't moved on to CS. I wish I had stayed with bw. I would have known some of you but I would have seen the history that I watch SC2 matches built upon.
I would have been there.
I can't turn back time but reading this..
I still have that smile on my face.
I don't know what SilverSkyLark is referring to but I hope someone bumps it. This has been educational and I feel .. a little less like a scrub writing a post in a forum I don't feel like I belong in!
|
On August 03 2011 15:00 Probe1 wrote:
When I got to the end .. I couldn't stop smiling at the brilliance of someone I never knew. The longer I'm on TL the longer I wish I hadn't moved on to CS. I wish I had stayed with bw. I would have known some of you but I would have seen the history that I watch SC2 matches built upon.
I would have been there.
I can't turn back time but reading this..
I still have that smile on my face.
I don't know what SilverSkyLark is referring to but I hope someone bumps it. This has been educational and I feel .. a little less like a scrub writing a post in a forum I don't feel like I belong in!
I Loved Victory pt1.
I Loved Victory pt2.
apparently bumping posts from the Final Edits does not do make it showup anywhere in the sidebar..
|
At least one new person read them. Thank you
|
There's only one thing to say, I love Iloveoov.
I hope he will show his usual brilliance for PL Finals.
On August 03 2011 15:38 SilverSkyLark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 15:00 Probe1 wrote:
When I got to the end .. I couldn't stop smiling at the brilliance of someone I never knew. The longer I'm on TL the longer I wish I hadn't moved on to CS. I wish I had stayed with bw. I would have known some of you but I would have seen the history that I watch SC2 matches built upon.
I would have been there.
I can't turn back time but reading this..
I still have that smile on my face.
I don't know what SilverSkyLark is referring to but I hope someone bumps it. This has been educational and I feel .. a little less like a scrub writing a post in a forum I don't feel like I belong in! I Loved Victory pt1.I Loved Victory pt2.apparently bumping posts from the Final Edits does not do make it showup anywhere in the sidebar..
Which is normal because the final edit section in the side bar is not the final edit forums. It's the whole final edit portal.
|
Oov is on the one who got me to learn and follow Terran on BW ): I love his build(s)
|
I've read this article at least 3 times and it still sounds awesome...
|
This makes me remember back to when Boxer first formed SKT1 and iloveoov was just an unkown talent he had found, along with zergman and intotherainbow if i remember correctly. So many good memories from watching iloveoov and boxer play over the years.
|
Oov was SUCH a beast.
Great read.
|
Oov pretty much showed that Terran can macro.
|
One of the best article I read. I remember the days when I watch oov play and I was like omfg wtf?. Sick macro is sick..
|
|
|
oov is worth a tier 1 coach and 2 players
cya in mediocrity, fantasy and ssak
|
I still can remember my awe when dozens of tanks would appear out of nowhere after he just lost his army and the commentators would be going bat shit insane about how Oov was cheating...
Great times. Great memories. Thanks for them all, Oov!!!!!
|
Pretty much proved that macro will always trump micro.
|
Amazing read, I really liked that he could beat people by simply outsmarting them. Who needs micro?hehe ; )
|
Great read, I'm glad this was bumped to catch my attention.
|
United States17042 Posts
On August 03 2011 13:34 Ideas wrote:
needs another bump in light of recent announcement of his retirement. truly one of, of not the greatest (considering his influence as a coach), force in brood war of all time.
probably the greatest in terms of thought, although as ver put, T has had some of the greatest thinkers of all time.
|
he's done SKT a great service. defnitely should have no regrets at all!! go iloveoov
|
This thread has been bumped like 5 times now... still worth it though, everyone needs to see this imo
|
|
|
On August 03 2011 22:31 saltywet wrote:
oov is worth a tier 1 coach and 2 players
cya in mediocrity, fantasy and ssak
fantasy's execution (in everything but bio micro) is good enough that he's not going to fall to "mediocre", I don't think. Steady A-class instead of S-challenger, maybe, but not mediocre.
Anyway, thanks for the article bump!
|
Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
He should be called 'The Unibrow Terran'.
Nice article.
|
On August 04 2011 00:34 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 13:34 Ideas wrote:
needs another bump in light of recent announcement of his retirement. truly one of, of not the greatest (considering his influence as a coach), force in brood war of all time. probably the greatest in terms of thought, although as ver put, T has had some of the greatest thinkers of all time.
IMO Savior is biggest because he took the hardest match up, most gruesome challenge to overcome, and he did it, despite being mechanically handicapped compared to adversaries. But yes, Cheers ILoveOov
|
Good article. Maybe Oov can join Ace as a coach instead of a player during his service? Then Ace would really be a threat
On August 04 2011 03:19 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 00:34 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On August 03 2011 13:34 Ideas wrote:
needs another bump in light of recent announcement of his retirement. truly one of, of not the greatest (considering his influence as a coach), force in brood war of all time. probably the greatest in terms of thought, although as ver put, T has had some of the greatest thinkers of all time. IMO Savior is biggest because he took the hardest match up, most gruesome challenge to overcome, and he did it, despite being mechanically handicapped compared to adversaries. But yes, Cheers ILoveOov
Yeah, now where's the great Protoss philosopher?
|
Late to the party but that is the best write-up of any player I've ever seen.
|
On August 04 2011 11:34 Jragon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:19 xarthaz wrote:On August 04 2011 00:34 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On August 03 2011 13:34 Ideas wrote:
needs another bump in light of recent announcement of his retirement. truly one of, of not the greatest (considering his influence as a coach), force in brood war of all time. probably the greatest in terms of thought, although as ver put, T has had some of the greatest thinkers of all time. IMO Savior is biggest because he took the hardest match up, most gruesome challenge to overcome, and he did it, despite being mechanically handicapped compared to adversaries. But yes, Cheers ILoveOov Yeah, now where's the great Protoss philosopher?
The closest is Bisu, but his "insight" only applies to one matchup (PvZ) and has proved essentially inimitable. PvT of course has never really been a problem, but PvP is now the flukiest of mirrors (since Jaedong, Modesty, Calm, Hydra, Killer, et al. have demonstrated that it's possible to beat "BO wins") - so we're still waiting.
|
is he going to get a ceremony like yellow did when he left?
i would like to see boxer troll oov
|
On August 04 2011 11:53 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 11:34 Jragon wrote:On August 04 2011 03:19 xarthaz wrote:On August 04 2011 00:34 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On August 03 2011 13:34 Ideas wrote:
needs another bump in light of recent announcement of his retirement. truly one of, of not the greatest (considering his influence as a coach), force in brood war of all time. probably the greatest in terms of thought, although as ver put, T has had some of the greatest thinkers of all time. IMO Savior is biggest because he took the hardest match up, most gruesome challenge to overcome, and he did it, despite being mechanically handicapped compared to adversaries. But yes, Cheers ILoveOov Yeah, now where's the great Protoss philosopher? The closest is Bisu, but his "insight" only applies to one matchup (PvZ) and has proved essentially inimitable. PvT of course has never really been a problem, but PvP is now the flukiest of mirrors (since Jaedong, Modesty, Calm, Hydra, Killer, et al. have demonstrated that it's possible to beat "BO wins") - so we're still waiting.
nal_ra pioneered so many copying strategies for protoss :O. he is the closest there is to an oov or savior for protoss IMO
|
Reach basically invented protoss macro and used it to thrash Oov a couple of times. Nal_rA invented a lot of PvZ stuff and was like the first PvP master.
|
TLADT24920 Posts
Good writeup. Reading Plexus' article on oov then this, they went hand in hand pretty well and tell the tale of a legendary player in BW. Surprisingly enough, I've always thought that macro was oov's specialty seeing as I've always heard he would just win by pure macro, guess that wasn't the complete case lol.
edit: expanding when the opponent least expects it, brilliant strat and it's a good idea(I've done this before with mixed results lol). Didn't realize this was in the BW section and not final edits lol oops XD
|
"When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape"
Words to live by.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/23vs1oov.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovvsyellow.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oov.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovbus.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovlunch.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovtrophy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovbanana.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovrush.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/iloveoovmarriage1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovcoach.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oovskt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9498/saviorvskongqi4.jpg)
