EPTbut i think against a lower level pro (who still practices all day), foreigners can win with their normal gameplay, yes. it's definitely not so black-and-white that foreigners shouldn't even try to play normally. for the purpose of these showmatches/tryouts, i think all players should just stick to doing what they do best. but if it was WCG finals and a foreigner is up against jaedong, some calculated risks would probably be very wise
Artosis's Spirit VODs - Page 27
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NonY
8751 Posts
but i think against a lower level pro (who still practices all day), foreigners can win with their normal gameplay, yes. it's definitely not so black-and-white that foreigners shouldn't even try to play normally. for the purpose of these showmatches/tryouts, i think all players should just stick to doing what they do best. but if it was WCG finals and a foreigner is up against jaedong, some calculated risks would probably be very wise | ||
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
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niin
61 Posts
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
On August 28 2008 19:20 iD.NicKy wrote: Machine has a good muta micro, he's playing a really ksilled player so he looks like bad... + stress Any C vs D player will look like pro muta micro but it's all about pressure .. etc Machine prolly beat 90% of all of you with his "poor micro muta" Agreed. I saw Machine play at the SoCal LAN II, about a year ago, and I have to say, watching his ZvZ muta micro was pretty incredible. | ||
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Phrogs!
Japan521 Posts
On August 29 2008 02:28 niin wrote: wow man... can we get one win? the pro gamers are making these guys who normally look like pro gamers themselves look like D- chumps. i watched a few of the games but not all of them were any of them even remotely close? I'd say Strelok vs. Mind was definately the closest game so far. If you haven't watched that one yet, I certainly would. | ||
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Juanpe
Uruguay283 Posts
On August 29 2008 02:28 niin wrote: wow man... can we get one win? the pro gamers are making these guys who normally look like pro gamers themselves look like D- chumps. i watched a few of the games but not all of them were any of them even remotely close? Don´t know if D- but totally a C kinda-noob player, sad =( And about the games, the big part of the foreigners aren´t taking any real risks and they are playing almost standard agains´t Kal, Nada, Really, etc, this is a suicide, think outside the box, do some extremely agressive build, cheese, otherwise it´s very hard to try to win standard vs standard agains´t a guy who trains day by day with Upmagic, Mingu, etc next to him and like 8 hours a day, try to use the surprise factor. Oh and BTW, gr8 work Artosis. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 29 2008 03:01 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Everyone here is saying "cheese" or "play outside the box" but the foreigners know damn well the second they win with any kind of cheese everyone will be like "yeah but you only did that with cheese" or whatever. It's really a no win situation except for the foreigner cause they are at least getting to play someone WAY above them in skill. Is it likely we can win without cheese? Of course not, but it is worth trying (and has happened before btw). I don't suggest cheese really just builds that they don't play against all day vs better players in regular training sessions. How many times a day do you think someone like Mind plays vs 3 hatch muta by players who are at a higher skill lvl than the foreigners that are being played in this thing? Maybe 30-50 games a day (?) of this exact build, done better. How can anyone go in using it and expect to win? Something like slow drop lurk, it's not cheese, it's an unorthodox build that I think if the foreigner catches then unaware can give them a big enough lead to win a game. If anyone in that case says "oh they had to cheese" they are retarded plain and simple. Starcraft isn't a job to foreigners, it's not their chosen profession. To beat a pro with any build, even if you 4 pool, is an accomplishment. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7584 Posts
That was the only part of your post (aside from recommending slow lurker drop LOL) that was completely stupid... okay so there were to parts that sucked. 3 hat muta ZvT is just stupid, it isn't even a good build anymore FOR OVER A YEAR and yet alot of good zergs keep doing it... =( so sad. Unless the Evo is earlier or the Den is earlier or alot of lings immediately before or after mutas it is just a weak build, it sets the terran up for a dominating midgame, even at the pro level. Mondragon did awesome against Sea[sheild] at WWI and would have won had he decided to defend his expo with his huge lurker/defiler/ling/scourge army rather then run a swarm push into the ground against cliffed tanks. That build was 3 hat muta > 5 hat lurker/ling/scourge ... AWESOME BUILD setting zerg up for great midgame army + grades ... | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7584 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On August 29 2008 03:35 floor exercise wrote: I don't see how you can discount slow lurker drop when things like Nazgul's (was it nazgul?) 2 base fast swarm almost beat Nada. If done right and completely unexpected it wouldn't win a game but it could slow them down fast enough to give the foreigner an eco advantage No it wasn't nazgul. AttackZerg you double posted -.- | ||
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404.Delirium
United States1190 Posts
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cujo2k
Canada1044 Posts
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maareek
United States2042 Posts
On August 29 2008 03:35 floor exercise wrote: I don't see how you can discount slow lurker drop when things like Nazgul's (was it nazgul?) 2 base fast swarm almost beat Nada Do you mean eriador's queen into fast defiler build he used v Nada in BWWI (I think) a few years ago? I think what the people saying the foreigners should do non-standard builds are discounting is the fact that most of the non-koreans chosen to play so far in these matches tend to play standard builds. And when going up against someone ridiculously better than you it only makes sense to do what you are strongest at doing. Sure they might win if they do something out of the ordinary, but they probably won't. And it's much more satisfying to play your game, regardless of outcome, than it is to do some quirky build you aren't very familiar with and lose horribly. Let us also not forget that these players in these matches apparent goal is to improve and get a chance to become a progamer. If that is the case, then they should be applauded for playing a straight up game so that they can see where their weaknesses are against people who know how to exploit those weaknesses so that they can step up their game. Honestly, folks, this isn't about taking a game from a progamer as a one time thing, it's about getting non koreans who can compete with progamers consistently as professionals themselves. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 29 2008 03:56 cujo2k wrote: Daniel Lee said many times that he wants to see some unorthodox/cheesy strats from foreigners trying to beat pro gamers in spirit, so if someone wants to impress Daniel Lee/become a pro gamer, It wouldn't hurt to be creative, think outside the box and give him what he wants. I think Daniel understands and accepts the fact that until the foreigners are put into training conditions like pro's have they are not gonna have the same level mechanics, so he wants to see ingenuity | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On August 29 2008 03:35 floor exercise wrote: I don't see how you can discount slow lurker drop when things like Nazgul's (was it nazgul?) 2 base fast swarm almost beat Nada. If done right and completely unexpected it wouldn't win a game but it could slow them down fast enough to give the foreigner an eco advantage Actually eriador got raped pretty bad in that game. The only one who gave some competition to pros in that tourney was mondragon who did really nice games against nal_ra. I can't really remember any non korean who won progamers with a cheese build. I still think foreign players should try to play as straight as possible against pros, just because it's their only way to win. Progamers practice against cheese a lot and they are much more experienced at it, and once cheese fails you basically get raped. If you play straight up you can try to put a good fight and if you win the game then the victory is worth much more. | ||
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
On August 29 2008 04:39 d1v wrote: I don't think that cheesing (apart from 4/5 Pool) is going to increase a foreigner's chances significantly. The progamers are very likely going to scout it, lol about it and then rape the shit out of the foreigner. As I recall, every single one of the "standard games" in Spirit lasted longer than the "cheesy" ones, and the foreigners could actually show some of their skill. Well, as I saw it at least, the standard games were more like long, slow deaths in which they didn't win any encounters at all. You couldn't tell their skill from a lot of those games just because they were completely outclassed. | ||
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