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Cross-posting this from liquidpoker.net. Someone over there asked me to talk a bit about my BW history after I linked him to the "Who is old school [Pictures]" thread on this site. Figured some of you might enjoy it as well.
I'll bang out some paragraphs for you...this will be an interesting exercise in memory, and I'll undoubtedly get some facts wrong:
Starcraft was my first competitive RTS. There was a whole brood of very strong RTS players who had played Warcraft 2 on Kali [an old IPX online gaming platform] who were able to translate many of the skills and principles they learned from that game and dominate competitive Starcraft during the first few years. I came from something of the 'new school' and played almost exclusively on battle.net at first, but started frequenting the Kali community just prior to playing in the 3rd season of the PGL [Professional Gamers League, now defunct.] I managed to come in 4th [Grrr won, Soso came in 2nd, {PH}Boo! came in 3rd, Kain-the-Feared came in 5th] overall, and pocket $2,500 and a new computer in my first legitimate tournament. Playing on Kali gave me access to a much higher caliber of player [at the time it was the most skilled SC community in the world] and I was able to improve dramatically as a player in the months following the PGL.
Despite a fairly non-existent infrastructure of tournaments / competitions the hardcore community continued to thrive...because, well, the game was amazing, and new strategies / tactics / nuances were being uncovered on a daily basis. Back then the official Blizzard ladder was actually functioning and relatively well policed by Blizzard officials. In addition, the Kali community had a ladder of it's own (http://www.casesladder.com/). I spent most of my time competing on these ladders, playing against the best players I could find, learning 2v2, and just generally attempting to enjoy the game and improve myself as much as possible. The PGL and another online league, i2e2, were the only real sources of profit one could derive from the game at this point, but both of those leagues floundered since there just wasn't enough general interest in e-sports to support them. The PGL had plans to host a 2v2 tournament which never materialized [much to the chagrin of players who had put in hundreds of hours training] and eventually they were bought out by http://www.firingsquad.com/ [where Thresh, an old school Quake god worked.] i2e2 did manage to pull off a successful 2v2 tournament, though my partner {PH}Pepe! and I failed to advance to the final rounds. I had considered us to be one of the top 4 teams in the world at that point, so this result was disappointing.
Eventually the official Blizzard ladder began to decay. Win-trading and hacking were becoming commonplace, and playing on battle.net against anyone but 'known players' was a risk [though even against 'known' players one could never be sure.] A popular hardcore SC community site "Tao of Gaming" eventually hosted it's own ladder, mostly for the Kali community. Later, another ladder [Cloud Ladder, I think?] took the reigns when the Tao of Gaming ladder fell apart.
I should also note in here that Koreans started popping up on battle.net in greater and greater frequency. Both Starcraft and SC:BW were released later in Korea, and it took them awhile to get up to speed. What one noticed about them at first was the relatively mechanical and robotic style of play. The way many Koreans seemed to learn to play was to master a single racial match-up on a single map and come as close as possible to perfecting it. They followed build orders rigorously, and often very efficiently, but didn't adapt well to new situations or creative responses by their opponents. Often they would play a moderately strong game for the first ten minutes of the match, but once the game became more dynamic and opened up a bit they would have difficulty doing anything other than throwing the same mixture of units at you over and over again. Obviously, this didn't remain the case for long.
[I should note here that the above is an attempt to paint a generalized picture of the the 'standard' Korean play-style and approach to the game during these early years. I'm just stating the overall trends which I saw in Korean play; there were certainly exceptions.]
Personally, I had started college, while still playing Starcraft off and on. Mid-way through my first semester I was approached by a well-known Kali community figure named General~Khalsa and offered a business proposition. His plan [along with a former webmaster of Starcraft.org named 'Hone'] was to create a pro gaming team [at the time basically unheard of in the RTS world] composed of foreign players which would move to South Korea and compete in the burgeoning Korean professional Starcraft leagues. This seemed like a pretty insane / fun opportunity, and I eventually decided to go. X'Ds~Grrrr and Maynard [and later Thor] joined as well, and the four of us showed up in Korea in early 2000. We stayed in the international dorm section of a prominent women's college in Seoul for the few first months [Ewha Women's University] and made slki bang [the home of the best Korean pro team at the time] our training space.
During the 3-4 months I spent out there, the group's results were pretty lackluster. I had managed to pick up the 4th seed out of 128 players in a KBK tournament, the first of out tournaments during our time over there, but only made it as far as the round of 32 in the tournament itself, mismanaging some reavers against a sub-par Korean zerg player. If I recall correctly, Grrrr made it to the round of 16 before losing as well. Another tournament highlight of mine including losing due to *score* when a tournament began running late and the tournament director decided to stop all of that round's games and declare whoever had the highest post-game score to be the winner. This is, of course, ridiculous, as the post-game scoring screen was never intended to be utilized in such a manner, and in the case of my game gave the victory to my opponent when I had a clear edge. We played in a 'foreign vs Korean tournament, one of our few successes during our time there [with Grrrr winning and Thor coming in second.] We lost a 3v3 [or 4v4?] tournament in the 2nd round. And I qualified for tournament called "Tooniverse" but only managed a 1-2 record, not enough to advance to the next stage of the format [this is the only tournament of mine that actually shows up on the Team Liquid Progaming Database.]
I had personally expected much more of us as a group. To be fair, though, the Koreans were just more dedicated than we were, and the formats of the tournaments made it nearly impossible for anyone but the best to succeed. After a few months it was clear to me that I just wasn't enjoying the game like I used to, and that I wouldn't be able to compete against the best in the world without this passion. I was also very homesick, and wanted to get back to college. Pro gaming, while a nice dream, didn't seem like it would lead anywhere useful. Maynard and Thor stayed for a bit longer, but both eventually returned back home [to Texas and Canada respectively.] Grrr continued to live in Korea [and still lives there today] and also managed to have some good competitive success over the years that followed.
I still played a bit of Starcraft after returning to the States, and actually won the USA WCG in 2000, beating Tsunami in an earlier round, and Jolly in the finals. I decided not to take the trip to Korea, though, as I knew my chances of winning were slim and I wanted to focus on school. A year or so later I came out of semi-retirement after being invited to 'LAN5ARENA' in France and played there as well, though lost to a fellow named 'zarma' in frustrating fashion in the 3rd round of competition. This was the last official tournament of my career.
To answer your exact question, I quit SC because it stopped being enjoyable. I played the game for thousands of hours over a 4-5 year stretch, and I'd had enough. In the past 5-6 years I've played maybe seven or eight other RTS games, becoming one of the top players in each of the games I dedicated more than a month to [this is much less of an accomplishment, though, given the relatively small playing pool of many other titles in the genre.] Starcraft remains the best computer game I've ever played, and probably the best computer game I ever *will* play. So much of my life is intertwined with it, and it's had a huge impact on the direction my life has taken [from working as a designer on SC2 to playing poker for a living today.]
So, yeah, that was sorta rough, and I'm CERTAIN some of those facts / timelines are wrong. But it's reasonably close. Let me know if you want to talk about any aspect of it in further detail.
And sorry for creating a wall of text for those of you who don't actually care.
:7
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HOLY SNAP PILLARS I LOVE YOU?
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No, it's an interesting wall of text. Thanks for typing all that out for us.
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Awesome write up dude!
So do you play or watch Starcraft? If so what are your thoughts on current pro gamers and foreigners?
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How is it that you can live off of poker? once you win enough does it start flowing in or what?
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Great post, I read it over at LP. Always cool to receive insights into the origin of SC proteams from different viewpoints.
On May 20 2008 15:52 Hypnosis wrote:
How is it that you can live off of poker? once you win enough does it start flowing in or what?
Contrary to popular belief poker is not all luck.
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On May 20 2008 15:52 Hypnosis wrote:
How is it that you can live off of poker? once you win enough does it start flowing in or what?
Like most games that involve some component of skill, one is able to defeat opponents by out-thinking / out-playing them. In poker, over the long haul, this translates directly to winning money. In general, the more skilled one is, the more money one can expect to win. Just as with Starcraft though, the game becomes very difficult at higher levels. The money never really just flows in; you have to work for it.
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On May 20 2008 15:49 KrAzYfoOL wrote:
Awesome write up dude!
So do you play or watch Starcraft? If so what are your thoughts on current pro gamers and foreigners?
I don't play Starcraft at all anymore. I'll occasionally watch clips of current pro games, but not enough to speak intelligently about the 'current state of pro-gaming.'
It's certainly interesting to see how the game has progressed, though. Some of this has to do with map creation [and the subsequent effect certain maps have on which openings and play-styles are viable] but more of it just has to do with the overall player base maturing as a whole and the average player's skill level becoming higher and higher [which means that the players at the top of the bell curve in terms of skill are much better than the top players from 2000.]
It's also really nice to see how much like chess the game continues to play, even at the highest levels. As I was leaving the game I had concerns that Starcraft would eventually become a 'solved' game and players would realize that there were in fact only 2-3 optimal openings for any given race on any given map. From what I can tell, though, there's still room for multiple opening gambits, and even the more standard openings have enough variation to differentiate themselves from one another.
Players are also much more well-rounded than they were back in 2000. The level of execution is much higher, and more than ever the game can hinge in a single, simple breakdown.
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What RTS games have come close to Starcraft in your experience? Do you think with the release of SC2 a relationship like 1.6 and source will come about?(1.6 regarded as the more skilled game, but source appealing to the broad masses for graphics)
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NIce progaming career ups and downs I like it very much!!
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On May 20 2008 16:14 Tetsuo_AKIRA wrote:
What RTS games have come close to Starcraft in your experience? Do you think with the release of SC2 a relationship like 1.6 and source will come about?(1.6 regarded as the more skilled game, but source appealing to the broad masses for graphics)
In my mind, no RTS games have come close. There are certain aspects of a number of games which they might do better than Starcraft, but SCs overall package and *depth of gameplay* always trumps them.
I'm not going to make any guesses as to what will happen to the community when SC2 is released. The game will undoubtedly have some level of success competitively, though, simply because it will be the "big new game" and there is a whole new generation of youngsters who will pick it up and play it for that reason alone. Whether or not the current hardcore SC community will switch over is largely contingent upon whether SC2 can deliver as a worthy successor to the original. It's way to early to tell at this point.
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Pillars, man, thanks for writing up this article and posting the picture thread!
It's nice to get some insight into the "old days", and interesting to read such a flavoured "tranche de vie". Kudos.
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Didnt realise that u were at the same level as grrr in your early days.
But i played u in TAOladder pillars and u were my idol <3
Are you gonna try hard for SC2 ?
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On May 20 2008 19:47 ToT)TreK( wrote:
Didnt realise that u were at the same level as grrr in your early days.
But i played u in TAOladder pillars and u were my idol <3
Are you gonna try hard for SC2 ?
Grrrr was always the better player, but I wasn't *too* far behind.
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Great write up I really enoyed reading
On May 20 2008 15:19 Pillars wrote:
I should also note in here that Koreans started popping up on battle.net in greater and greater frequency. Both Starcraft and SC:BW were released later in Korea, and it took them awhile to get up to speed. What one noticed about them at first was the relatively mechanical and robotic style of play. The way many Koreans seemed to learn to play was to master a single racial match-up on a single map and come as close as possible to perfecting it. They followed build orders rigorously, and often very efficiently, but didn't adapt well to new situations or creative responses by their opponents. Often they would play a moderately strong game for the first ten minutes of the match, but once the game became more dynamic and opened up a bit they would have difficulty doing anything other than throwing the same mixture of units at you over and over again. Obviously, this didn't remain the case for long.
[I should note here that the above is an attempt to paint a generalized picture of the the 'standard' Korean play-style and approach to the game during these early years. I'm just stating the overall trends which I saw in Korean play; there were certainly exceptions.]
This part of the section really opened up alot on me and I started to reminiscence the time before I fully quit SC/BW (around late 2000). Reason being was because I remember playing on gamei server during that time for better competition and I remember lots of games being played where within 7-10 minute time span if the Korean opponent being played would fail at such an attack I would recall either just getting waves of lings/zealots and if they were fended off they would just leave the game and it would really piss me off b/c I would want to continue the game, but I can relate to your writeup on this trait.
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Do you have any replays of yourself, or were you before the replay age?
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Reps came 2001 with patch 1.08
edit; nice write-up
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You said exactly what i was thinking about koreans back then. They were so good about mechanics but when it came to unorthodox strat i always managed to win because they'd just suck with "macro". I mean don't get me wrong they were still good, but it seemed like the only way to win the games against koreans was to make longs games in order to have some edges over them.
Putting it aside, very well written article. If you want some memory back you can read boonbag's blog where he's talking about the korean's history back where you were in korea.
Thx again for the godly thread ! 
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
nice lil walk through the past
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I've been longing for a post like this, to make me feel newschool again, as I wasn't around that time. Thank you (I've been feeling old with knowing about so many things that are now labeled as "old-school" ).
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I would like to say that it was pleasure to read it =]. Nice past and good luck in the future.
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On May 20 2008 19:47 ToT)TreK( wrote:
Didnt realise that u were at the same level as grrr in your early days.
But i played u in TAOladder pillars and u were my idol <3
Are you gonna try hard for SC2 ?
I'm definitely not gonna try to play SC2 professionally. It would require more dedication than I'm willing to give at this point. Not to mention the fact that poker already fills a pretty big niche in terms of gaming and strategy.
I'll still play, for sure, and probably at a decent level, but it will be mostly recreationally.
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On May 21 2008 02:14 Mickey wrote:
Do you have any replays of yourself, or were you before the replay age?
Yeah, as someone else stated, I left the game before replays existed. I remember some 'fake' replays of mine lying around in 2002-2003, though.
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Great post Pillars, good for people like me who got into the scene late to be able to learn about these early stages of Starcraft.
But for me it's quite funny to read this when where i first heard about you was from your "legendary" game aganist Ace1ever in C&C Generals which was in 2003, and then i later learned you were actually a progamer in Korea a couple of years earlier
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OF COURSE WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE ?!?
Tengen toppa gurren laggan's anime in case you're wondering (great anime btw).
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Man reading this reminds me of the days when I played in a I2E2 tournament back in 1998-99 in Dallas and all the WCG qualifiers. Hehe my golden moments at the WCG qualifiers were playing Artosis LT he drew Terran 12 and my Random Toss 6. I think we played about an hour long live game with all the other participants watching. I believe i finally lost that one. I also won the next game by nuke rushing a terran. lol nuke rush won a tournament WCG game !
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That was a really good read, nice to learn more about the best game's history
Cheers for posting about it
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On May 21 2008 03:20 {88}iNcontroL wrote:nice lil walk through the past
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Ahh Pillars. I know deep in your heart you loved "Strifeshadow" =p You were pretty darn good in that game too.
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great post pillar. do you remember the norwegian player Slayer? the guy behind the slayers part of slayers_boxer. what year did he win a title, and who did he play against in the final? was it ilovestar? we even had a documentary about him on norwegian tv.
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wow great read, i really enjoyed it
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what a writer -.- i hope i can write as well as this thread -.-
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must be nostalgic for you. When starcraft came out i was 11, and i remember playing it for the first time at a cousins house. thats my history : D anyways, thats an interesting wall of text!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 22 2008 08:12 diggurd wrote:
great post pillar. do you remember the norwegian player Slayer? the guy behind the slayers part of slayers_boxer. what year did he win a title, and who did he play against in the final? was it ilovestar? we even had a documentary about him on norwegian tv.
the slayers part of slayers_boxer is from a tv show
Slayer won KBK in 2000 (i think?), the player he beat in the final was i.Love_Star, yes. KBK was a massive, prestigious tournament. During Slayer's run, Grrrr... remarked that Slayer was the best player on earth. Slayer was like a 250 apm player back in that day, pretty wild. There's a segment in that documentary showing Giyom standing behind Slayer with a big grin on his face.
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On May 22 2008 08:09 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Ahh Pillars. I know deep in your heart you loved "Strifeshadow" =p You were pretty darn good in that game too.
I *did* like Strifeshadow, for sure. I chose to play it over the much more popular War3 for awhile. It was also nice to be part of a small, fairly close-knit community playing an indie game.
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I actually have a rep of you chris from way way way back then playing Br@d p vs z.
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On May 22 2008 10:38 Pillars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 08:09 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
Ahh Pillars. I know deep in your heart you loved "Strifeshadow" =p You were pretty darn good in that game too. I *did* like Strifeshadow, for sure. I chose to play it over the much more popular War3 for awhile. It was also nice to be part of a small, fairly close-knit community playing an indie game.
Johnny_Vegas and I still play once and awhile. Artius will join us sometimes for a 3 way ffa. PM me your AIM or email if you're ever interested in joining us sometime. I remember writing a BR about you vs Mr.Bard from like. God. 5 years ago? Good times.
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On May 22 2008 10:49 PEPE!! wrote:
I actually have a rep of you chris from way way way back then playing Br@d p vs z.
Whoa.
Surprising.
I'm guessing I wasn't really in my prime anymore at that point, but I'd be curious to see it...
Read your PMs. :D
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I love these kind of reads. Haha foreigner progamers past experiences of Starcraft
Great read man =]
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i read this thread with Time of Your Life in the background and it almost made me tear up. Old school BW is awesome. Watching that Slayer documentary and seeing those old school guys. Maybe SC2 will bring it back......
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Just to put it in some perspective, though, nine years isn't that much.
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slayers99 vs ilovestar was the first starcraft vod that i saw
=)
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On May 22 2008 10:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 08:12 diggurd wrote:
great post pillar. do you remember the norwegian player Slayer? the guy behind the slayers part of slayers_boxer. what year did he win a title, and who did he play against in the final? was it ilovestar? we even had a documentary about him on norwegian tv. the slayers part of slayers_boxer is from a tv show Slayer won KBK in 2000 (i think?), the player he beat in the final was i.Love_Star, yes. KBK was a massive, prestigious tournament. During Slayer's run, Grrrr... remarked that Slayer was the best player on earth. Slayer was like a 250 apm player back in that day, pretty wild. There's a segment in that documentary showing Giyom standing behind Slayer with a big grin on his face.
i thought it was slayers clan, but i guess youre right. cool youve seen it too? ill try to upload it if i can find it, even though its in norwegian. do you remember the part with maynard?
slayer: "hey are you maynard?", using maynards computer.
maynard: "youre using my computer :/"
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EPT
