Hardest Race Poll - Page 4

On May 15 2008 04:01 Zelniq wrote:


eh INC while I agree TvZ is probably the most technically difficult matchup in the game, it's also the 'strong mu' for T, with T being the natural counter to Z (more-so than P is to T as you mentioned). While all you said is true, there are loads of technical advantages terrans have over zerg in this matchup as well.. simply because the zerg units are just so weak in this matchup, more so than any other matchup in the game.

And I disagree with the 'cant A move against just about anything zerg throws at you' part. there are tons of situations you can simply a-move (well, after stimming + maybe a scan). and I would say that there are just as many 'cant just A move' situations for zerg as well in that matchup.. mutalisks you rarely want to do that and is considerably more technically difficult imo than something like marines vs lurkers. i never had to practice marine micro maps before, it's just something that's pretty logical/simple.. spread out and drag lurker fire with the first marine.. and it's usually really not a big deal to lose some marines anyway due to mis-micro.. they are so cheap and abundant while gas is much more precious to zerg obviously (not to mention larvae as well).
And that's just mutas.. what about other units? When can you just A-move as zerg? that's only if your army somehow completely overpowers the one you're fighting. take for example a group of m&m attacking a zerg expo. unless the zerg already has lurkers there, who has the easier mechanical aspect? how hard is it to stim as lurker/lings come in and then run back as the lurkers burrow? now the marines are safe again until the zerg tries to burrow again. sure eventually the lurker will be near the hatchery and so the marines have a harder time hitting it, but i wouldnt say it was any easier for terrans here than zerg.
And then defilers. They are extremely difficult to use and just harder all around than vessels are for terran, and dont have any use when massed unlike vessels. Using scourge to kill vessels protected my marines is imo just slightly harder than it is for the vessels to take out defilers who are protected by scourge (and possibly hydras)... but what is the 'finishing blow' is that the terran is constantly producing vessels while the zerg is not doing the same with defilers.. and eventually the vessel count just becomes big while zerg is still just trying to maintain a constant 1-2 defilers at each base/army.
Then you also add in the fact that T can spam SCVs while Z cannot just spam drones, along with the fact that minerals are much less useful to Z than they are to T in this MU...then add in how cost-effective marines/medics are in this matchup.. (I'm confident nothing else in the game is close to being this cost-effective).

All lead into how I wouldn't say T is the definite harder race to play in this MU. T is highly technical but stronger as well.. while Z is definitely less but also weaker.

And then TvT vs ZvZ..comeon the two are nothing alike. TvT is almost like a game of chess + macro while ZvZ is like no other matchup whatsoever... requires so much finesse/feel/understanding/experience/control.. it requires a skillset unlike any other matchup. It's such a low-economy game..never has each worker become so precious.. and never can you lose a game so quickly and easily. It's different enough that I'd say it's harder than TvT..but this is certainly arguable.

On May 15 2008 04:18 alphablend wrote:



Nothing further, try playing TvP and tell me Protoss is hard after that.

On May 15 2008 04:24 LeGeNdZs[FcG] wrote:
im only posting one last time here cus im not ez to change my mind on this, i love my race its not ez to use. Its as hard as the others.

It all comes down to who the player is, and how much experience they have, a gosu with all races would find each race is equal since he can use them perfectly. A newb with zerg would cry that ovies die, a newb with terran would cry that protoss over throws them, a newb with protoss would cry that terrans tanks are too strong. All in all no race harder than the next its up to the experience. I say only koreans that are pro licensed have a right to make any claims here!

On May 15 2008 04:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:


I might be more inclined to argue with this on a more point by point level later but let me just say for the most part you cannot attack move as terran. 4 lurkers can in a good position become almost invincible against a terran force of marines. And even then you HAVE to have scan or guide the science vessel to give detection. This is particularly unique because lurkers are a maintstay against terran so it becomes more feasible to claim that "A" move is usually a luxury you cant have in TvZ. While on the flip side 99% of late game zvt is ultra ling in which case 99% of z's that are mid to lower level "A" move ultras and lings and and are relatively fine. They dont need overlords, or technical units. Of course they help but again, its not necessary. So I disagree: terrans for the most part cannot "A" move and the situation in which they can is rare and usually meaningless whereas I could be relatively successful as a ZvT player and "A" move every other game.

On May 15 2008 04:25 Valentine wrote:

Actually I personally find TvP just as easy as PvT (I've played both of them for years) but I can't get a grip on TvZ :p Kind of off topic but its odd, my best matchups are PvT, TvP, and ZvT, two of which are thought of as the "harder" matchups ;_;

But after playing each race for many years I've concluded that T is the hardest all-around. I don't get how everyone is bashing on P however ;_;

On May 15 2008 04:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote:


I might be more inclined to argue with this on a more point by point level later but let me just say for the most part you cannot attack move as terran. 4 lurkers can in a good position become almost invincible against a terran force of marines. And even then you HAVE to have scan or guide the science vessel to give detection. This is particularly unique because lurkers are a maintstay against terran so it becomes more feasible to claim that "A" move is usually a luxury you cant have in TvZ. While on the flip side 99% of late game zvt is ultra ling in which case 99% of z's that are mid to lower level "A" move ultras and lings and and are relatively fine. They dont need overlords, or technical units. Of course they help but again, its not necessary. So I disagree: terrans for the most part cannot "A" move and the situation in which they can is rare and usually meaningless whereas I could be relatively successful as a ZvT player and "A" move every other game.

On May 15 2008 02:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
btw in all honesty:

terran hands down. TvT is as technical / difficult / feel oriented as ZvZ and requires more strategy given the multitude of openings that are viable but also straight destroy other viable openings WHILE requiring micro / control not quite on the same level as ZvZ but definately up there.

TvZ is one of the most difficult match ups in the game, if not the hardest imo. The control, micro, multi tasking required to be a competent terran in this matchup is insane. Controlling multiple groups of marines/medics requires micro (cannot "A" move against lurker/swarm or just about anything else the Z army will throw at you), defending muta harrass requires a control/feel above most other mu's and a late game t army will usually consist of tanks CRUCIAL to sieging ultras/sunkens/defiler spots, science vessels critical to success if they are not used to keep defiler levels down/thwart guardians/weaken ultralisks the T player DIES. Hands down. Those are just the technical units the army itself is weak unless used with skill.

TvP is the "weak mu" for T with P being considered the logical counter to T. That being said this mu is as fragile and dangerous as it gets. Protoss players can srtaight make a unit (dt) that ends a game regardless (same with PvP). They can also open with 1 gate tech, 2 gate rush into tech, proxy anything, reaver, dt, dt drop, 14 nexus. Mass expanding, faster tech, safe, coin-flip etc.. all viable for protoss against terran. These numerous factors make this mu infinitely difficult for terran players.

With great effort comes high reward though. I think while Terran is by far the hardest race to play it is also the most rewarding. The best players on earth have usually been terran because they have usually had the most talent, worked the hardest and had the foresight to pick a race that while extremely difficult to play rewards the gamer with tremendous success if properly harnessed. Terran's range and mix of not quite weak but not quite strong units allows for an army of relatively powerful units when working in harmony but also having the flexibility of something simmilar to a protoss army in that they can go several ways to find the win screen. The mixture of tenacious units coupled with the heaviest firepower in the game and concluding with an element of flexibility makes this race the best in the game.

On May 15 2008 04:37 Zelniq wrote:


well once you get to the ultra/ling state yes of course it's A-move .. but up till then..with mutas and defilers it certainly is not.. two of the most difficult units to control/use properly. Also the sheer amount of units with the very limited amount of hotkeys due to ofc hatchery bindings as well makes it more complicated than simple A-move..even with the end-game of ultra/ling/scourge.

my personal opinion is that both TvZ and ZvT are two of the most difficult matchups in the game, especially among mid to lower level players

On May 15 2008 00:55 fusionsdf wrote:
its certainly not fucking protoss

On May 15 2008 05:31 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:

Agreed.

"whats that, you have basic macro skills? well fuck then welcome to team protoss."