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On January 03 2008 10:15 Woyn wrote:
aha! KKND! I also played this, I still have my original copy that I picked up in a sale
omg lets play!! ahahah!!! yess!!! :D :D :D
do you remember the beetle for evolved? it did by far the most damage of any unit in the game, but it had a ridiculous cooldown rate. however, if you told it to attack a unit, then attack a different one, it would reset the cooldown. essentially, if you had a few beetles, you could attack units back and forth and it would be a constant stream of infinity-damage ooze ahahah.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Wow this is a great article. This "marginal advantage" is something I believe everyone should keep in mind while playing any game.
When I first started playing SC, after fending off the initial attack, I'd always take everything I had and attack the enemy base. My army was always either in my base or my enemy's base. It took me almost a year to realize that it's ok (or should I say ideal) to control the center and take expos.
Thanks for your insight Day 
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Excellent remarks. I'd just like to point out that one of the biggest things that separates A-class player from others is their ability to maintain and extend their advantages. This does not necessarily mean they are cautious and don't attack. For example, Iris and July like to use their unit advantage to wreck the other player. Other players prefer being able to secure more expos instead of pushing their attack.
StarCraft has a strong inherent defender's advantage, usually due to travel distance, cliffs, positioning, etc. so there are often games when a player takes a moderate advantage early game or midgame and builds on that advantage for another 10 or 15 minutes before winning. The case is most extreme in PvP or ZvZ where a build order advantage is often enough for a skilled progamer to win.
S-class players are those that are able to overcome disadvantages. Jaedong's ZvZ is a good example. Regardless of what build he uses, he's able to maximize his position and ultimately win most of the time.
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United States1655 Posts
Wow, awesome article!
And you played KKND? That used to be my favorite game! Too bad I sold it and now I can't find it any more. 
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What a great write up. Throughly enjoyed reading that. The ending especially was pretty profound. It was something that all game developers should keep in mind as they create their games.
Furthermore, I believe that this philosophy should be keep in the back of the minds of everybody that plays games competitively.
While reading this, I realised that you can apply this to more than just a handful of well designed computer games. Take cricket for example: If you take a wicket, your next objective is to try to use the advantage you've gained by taking the next wicket while the batsman is new to the crease.
I'm sure the philosophy could be applied to even more diverse fields than that.
Thanks for the great read.
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you are giving CS too much credit
Quake 3 or Quakeworld :D
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wow, this was an amazing article. Thanks for the read;)
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On January 03 2008 10:40 Day[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2008 10:15 Woyn wrote:
aha! KKND! I also played this, I still have my original copy that I picked up in a sale omg lets play!! ahahah!!! yess!!! :D :D :D do you remember the beetle for evolved? it did by far the most damage of any unit in the game, but it had a ridiculous cooldown rate. however, if you told it to attack a unit, then attack a different one, it would reset the cooldown. essentially, if you had a few beetles, you could attack units back and forth and it would be a constant stream of infinity-damage ooze ahahah.
I will reinstall it when I am home from work and hopefully it will run fine. Hamachi!! yes I remember the beetle, unfortunately I was never smart enough to work out that you could reset the cooldown like that
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I love the article. Being a competitive MvC2 player as well among other games you mentioned (since I play MvC2 best) I love how you clearly put your thoughts about marginal advantage, Playing to win rather than Playing to win while looking Good <3
Edit: About that thing in the second page with disarray, "3 teams... etc", + Show Spoiler +while its exaggerated although it holds truth in it (Teams usually consists of two Top tiers + one good assist) There are still players who can consistently play well against the best players because of the dynamics of their team as well as the assists they choose (example: You play MSS-proj quite differently from MSS-ground ) Any low tier team with a good dynamic still has a good chance to beat a better team even when both players are of equal skill, This is also why most low-tier players pick Tronbonne as their primary assist. By doing this they give themself an advantage they wouldn't normally have. But enough MvC2, this is a SC site. I can't really type well at 1:30 am here but I hope I made even a small point across =)
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Nice article, really good and universally applicable idea.
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Wow, I really need to think about this kind of thing more often. Of course, I probably won't improve all that much just by reading it, because I have problems gaining any kind of advantage, including a marginal one
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FuDDx
United States5017 Posts
Wow great read man enjoyed it very much.
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Ah, it was the beetle that was heinously overpowered in KKND one (I was hoping it would have turned out to be the autocannon tank. That tank was fucking badarse). I merely remember beating the whole thing in a desperate attempt to find some of the special units they hid in the game. That said, the article makes it's point strongly and I agree with it totally. The safe way may not always be the most exciting, but it's those who grasp the marginal advantage and play with it carefully who win more often than not.
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Belgium9950 Posts
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
excellent article sean. your a truly a brilliant person : ) i'm lucky to have you as a brother
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It was a really good read, thank you!
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great article, new ways to look at things, thanks for sharing
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I know northing about Mancala, but it sounds to me as if a more powerful strategy (more powerful than the 1 stone advantage) would be one that strives to always have the largest advantage after the opponents turn, but at least 1 stone.
So it wouldn't aim to make the greediest move, but a move that builds a steady advantage if possible and otherwise maintains the advantage.
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On January 06 2008 12:17 Simplistik wrote:
I know northing about Mancala, but it sounds to me as if a more powerful strategy (more powerful than the 1 stone advantage) would be one that strives to always have the largest advantage after the opponents turn, but at least 1 stone.
So it wouldn't aim to make the greediest move, but a move that builds a steady advantage if possible and otherwise maintains the advantage.
yes you are totally correct. this is essentially what the winning program did. rather than say this explicitly, i just wrote it in a very brief way since it was unnecessary to go into too much detail. (plus, there are so many billions of variations of mancala that it would depend on what version you were playing haha)
what's important is that video games >> board games ;] hahahah
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EPT
