EPT"Dont worry" from Bisu - Page 6
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pum
Sweden306 Posts
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ambit!ous1
United States3662 Posts
On November 20 2007 02:18 pum wrote: OMFG, is he only 18 years old?? can someone confirm this? Yes 18 is correct. Bisu was born on Nov. 3, 1989. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On November 19 2007 18:45 Plexa wrote: Even better for mind who just rode out Bisu's pattern. Although, he did scout it - but he may have been looking to confirm the pattern.. i dont know - either way its full credit to mind. Those micro mistakes are grossly exaggerated - yes they were bad but it really was just that one instance. IMO the reaver drop doing no damage what so ever was more pivotal to the outcome of the game than the micro mistake. (IIRC) By that stage bisu had lost alot defending the 3rd (he may have lost it... can't remember) and mind was taking his 3rd - bisu was already behind largely in macro and thus even if he didnt lose those zealots, and DID break the line he still would have been behind. I think i know which mine you're talking about, yes bisu showed some amazing micro there - but realistically it was a tall order for him to possibly hold that. Even if that 'mistake' hadnt happen (which are damn hard to avoid if you've ever played protoss - stupid goons) mind had reinforcements on the way and wouldve finished bisu off - maybe not at that moment, but still rather soon. You "think" is not good enough. You spend this time writing a big block of text analyzing the game, but didn't watch/rewatch games 1 and 3 closely enough to notice the key turning points that led to Bisu's losses. When he lost his huge zealot clump to mines in Game 1, this was RIGHT before Mind was able to take out his 3rd nexus. If he had fended that off, with his usual push-breaking micro he wouldn't have lost that expansion that set him behind by a lot. As for the mine in game 3, I made a detailed comment about it earlier. It was a misclick involving 4 units, not an error forced by Mind or anything like that. Bisu had 4 gateways so his reinforcements come out faster than Mind's fyi, and you can see how close Mind's are to arriving w/the minimap (no tanks on their way). On November 18 2007 11:20 teamsolid wrote: Game 3: Again, one small micro mistake by Bisu at a crucial moment completely turned that game around that isn't even obvious unless you watch closely. This is the beauty of SC. At 7:45-7:47 here: (or 9:45-9:47 in the .ogm video), At this point it was exactly 3 tanks, 1 vult and 2 marines vs 5 goons + 2 zealots. Normally, I think the Toss would come out on top with these two armies. At 7:45, Bisu saw a mine get planted down below his troops, but he misclicked when he tried to target it (or it sunk into the ground before he could react in time), and this resulted in 2 zealots and 2 goons charging towards it and splashing all 4 units with the mine + taking out a goon. Furthermore, if the zealots hadn't been damaged by the mine, it would've caused a perfect mine drag at 7:48/9:48 on the rine/vult group of Mind's as it walked over. If that mine hadn't gone off at exactly that moment, I am absolutely sure that Bisu would've repelled that push without having to pull/lose any probes, thus giving him a huge advantage rather than mind (2 base vs 1). Anyways, both players up to that point had virtually flawless micro and Mind had Boxer-esque mine placement, but I thought it was amazing how that one little mistake was the turning point that led to a cascade of events that ultimately ended in his loss. On November 19 2007 18:45 Plexa wrote: Mind won the series, bisu did not lose it. It's a combination of the two. This doesn't take away from Mind's skill or performance whatsoever. End of story. All we are saying is that Bisu normally plays better than what he showed. This can be attested to by detailed analysis from players who are far more highly skilled than me, such as Nony. | ||
jhNz
Germany2762 Posts
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TooMuchMicro
7 Posts
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no.1
516 Posts
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On November 20 2007 01:18 Hot_Bid wrote: I have already said I agree that Mind was better and deserves the trophy. I don't know why you are arguing a point that I have already stated. I edited out all your redundant arguing. But what you say in the above quote is simply inaccurate. I'm attributing Bisu's mistakes (that legitimately lost him the final) to his own actions, and you're saying that it's "Mind's passivity" as if Mind somehow is better at being passive than Hwasin or Xellos. He did not lay mines in a special way or leave his tanks sieged in a special way that was better than how Hwasin or Xellos did. The only difference was Bisu's decision making and execution, not some magical "passivity superiority" from Mind. Everything else that you say about Bisu feeling desperate and pressured is purely conjecture and a product of you imposing your pro-Terran bias into your opinions. I don't know what else to say other than that I disagree with you. Not much more to add, each side has already made their points and this discussion has already become stale. Haha, the only point I've asked you to answer in my post, and you omit it in the part you deem as "redundant"... I don't even care about the rest, like I said. I don't, because I knew precisely this is going to happen after I realised Bisu was losing it. All the people backing him up so heavily will attribute things to cold weather, bright lights, lack of sleep, generally strange mistakes, bla bla, just to make things seem extraordinary. It was the same with the Bisu-Savior finals, and will always be the same when a newcomer underdog beats a champ. It's a constant rule. There's nothing I want to convince you of. My initial post was referring to the part about "if 100 games were played, then, oh boy, oh boy..." which stroke me as a rather funny thing to say from any "analyst", let alone "best analysts". I don't know what you're arguing about here, because those points of mine actually were irrelevant to what I was saying. For the last time, if you agree with the 100 games nonsense, fine. If you don't, the better, because then we can at least agree that that's a pretty foolish thing to say, right? That's it. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36370 Posts
I never argued anything else with you yet you seem to be intent on bringing it up. Regardless of how "irrelevant" you think the comments I quoted are, they still are wrong and show a pretty severe lack of understanding of what actually happened in the games, regardless of whether or not we agree on the "100 games" thing and excuses made after the result. I'm getting ready for another post where you yet again argue something completely different. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On November 20 2007 10:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Mynock the thing you don't understand is that when you say 'Bisu couldn't play his game so he was desperate', you're talking out of your ass. You don't know what Bisu's "game" is if you think that's true. Steve, I was pointing out that Bisu couldn't harass Mind, and that indeed, can be seen by anybody (if you could find any flaws in Mind's defense, good for you). But not like I really care about it in the irst place. My knowledge of Bisu's style is absolutely irrelevant, as that was not what I was talking about. It's what YOU were trying to argue about, and I was foolish enough to reply to. I was not going into no detailed analysis, nor was I trying to suggest anything at all what you guys have derived from my words. I wasn't even talking about Bisu in the first place, I was talking about Nony's notion about how "top analysts agree" and "if 100 games were played", which I thought was bollox. I even said I agreed with both you Steve, and HB on several accounts, ffs. The only thing I didn't agree is how you all played on the "luck" horse so much. How HB managed to pull out from my simple sentence some sort of game analysis and an attack on Bisu I have no idea, but that was quite a feat. Then again maybe it was the "don't worry Nony, ignore him, our judgment is perfect and he's just a Terran fanboy" kinda thing. I'll take extra care not to react to such raises in the future. In the meanwhile, it's obvious you guys won't respond to how and what analysts agree to the 100 games and who was better on that day thing, I'll just leave it at that. I asked the same thing 5 times by now, I can see it's pointless. Not that these discussions aren't pointless in the first place, really  Same thing always happens after every single final play. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On November 19 2007 07:00 Hot_Bid wrote: I think it's a 100% moot point, because they don't play 100 times and Mind still kicked Bisu's ass. The whole point of a bo5 is to eliminate garbage luck and find the better player. Nobody is saying Mind doesn't deserve it. But what Nony is saying isn't "just stupid." It's a good point and one worth making. Don't dismiss things just because you disagree with them. I don't see how Bisu having a chance next season somehow makes Nony's point "just stupid" and not worth saying. When the Pistons beat the Lakers in 2004, people tried making the incorrect argument that the better team lost. In a single playoff game like the NFL? Sure, it's possible but not when you get dominated 4-1. Irregardless of talent, the Pistons were the better team, just as Mind is better than Bisu in the PvT matchup. There, I said what all Savior fans/bisu haters have been waiting to hear. You may disagree, but I've got a 3-1 score to back me up so your point, once again, is moot. | ||
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AaO)Ace
United States50 Posts
Bisu trains and learns. Will he change it around? We'll see. | ||
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cava
United States1035 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36370 Posts
On November 20 2007 15:27 cava wrote: I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn. Your conclusion from the games was that Bisu was the one with a "campy" style??? Well I guess it's understandable if you haven't seen these two play before and are judging them solely on these 4 games, but your analysis about the style of the players is still pretty off. - It's impossible to be consistent in PvT without playing a somewhat macro-oriented style in many games, because if the T turtles you are basically forced to do this (and most T's FE now) - Terrans, especially the newer ones, always FE in TvP; Mind had one game with 1 fac CC, one game with a 1 fac CC into 3rd CC, one game dying to proxy and one game where he Joyo'd. In 3/4 games vs Savior he also 1 rax CC'd. These are exactly the type (except for the Joyo) builds, in 5/7 games, that you "hate." - Bisu, among current Protoss, is probably the one that does the LEAST abusive macro builds, opting instead to oftentimes do safe robo before Nex and DT drop builds. That's his style, and it's a shame we didn't really get to see it in the MSL finals games. - I agree with you that Mind was impressive | ||
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
On November 20 2007 15:49 Hot_Bid wrote: - Bisu, among current Protoss, is probably the one that does the LEAST abusive macro builds, opting instead to oftentimes do safe robo before Nex and DT drop builds. That's his style, and it's a shame we didn't really get to see it in the MSL finals games. I agree with all points except this one. Bisu is a really strong macro player. Sometimes he (tech) rushes (e.g. reaver/DT off 1 base) but often he pulls off some crazy/risky macro oriented build, like a relatively fast 2nd expansion, or a 14 nexus in PvT without scouting before (he did that against Mind too in at least 1 game, IIRC it was the one on Python). Things like that are very risky but he is often lucky that the opponent doesn't do a timing attack (Mind did that, though). Once his expansions are running he can usually outmacro his opponent quite easily. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36370 Posts
On November 20 2007 16:02 Brutalisk wrote: I agree with all points except this one. Bisu is a really strong macro player. Sometimes he (tech) rushes (e.g. reaver/DT off 1 base) but often he pulls off some crazy/risky macro oriented build, like a relatively fast 2nd expansion, or a 14 nexus in PvT without scouting before (he did that against Mind too in at least 1 game, IIRC it was the one on Python). Things like that are very risky but he is often lucky that the opponent doesn't do a timing attack (Mind did that, though). Once his expansions are running he can usually outmacro his opponent quite easily. I did not say Bisu was not a strong macro player. Being a strong macro player does not automatically mean you do risky macro builds. I'm saying most of the time, and relative to other Protoss players, Bisu plays "safe" early game PvT. He gets robo and obs early, he often 2 gates and usually his expo is later than the Terran's, whether due to guarding against cheese, extra goons, reaver, or DT drop. Yes, there are examples of him doing a 14nex or a FE build, but compared to other top PvT players like Stork, Bisu's strategy is not one to take risky opening builds to secure a macro advantage, like blind 1 Gate Nex or 14nex. Yes, the 14nex vs Mind was an exception. (Before people start jumping on me, the 14nex is no reason to discredit Mind's victory in that game). In fact, Bisu often relies on his ability to catch up to the Terran's early eco advantage during midgame and lategame stages (see the Hwasin games). Contrasting Bisu's style with Stork, who often does very risky early game builds to secure a macro advantage and then plays really safe during the midgame portion of a PvT. | ||
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Highways
Australia6098 Posts
On November 20 2007 15:27 cava wrote: I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn. ahahaha how do u expect a protoss to play vs a turtle terran? | ||
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diehilde1
Germany522 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
On November 20 2007 15:27 cava wrote: I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn. Can you be more ignorant please? | ||
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