On November 19 2007 04:27 JoxxOr wrote: Mind pwned Bisu...
I still <3 Bisu
For the god damn last time, Bisu never got "pwned", there is already so much evidence that has been presented by numerous members here and scene followers that he did not play to his fullest capabilities in that series, stop it already with the blatant war3 community/wcreplaysish fanboy ignorance and stupidity.
On November 19 2007 04:27 JoxxOr wrote: Mind pwned Bisu...
I still <3 Bisu
For the god damn last time, Bisu never got "pwned", there is already so much evidence that has been presented by numerous members here and scene followers that he did not play to his fullest capabilities in that series, stop it already with the blatant war3 community/wcreplaysish fanboy ignorance and stupidity.
That's what all fanboys say when their favorite players get beaten. Point is Bisu got beaten and that's that. If he didn't play as well then the right man won.
On November 19 2007 04:27 JoxxOr wrote: Mind pwned Bisu...
I still <3 Bisu
For the god damn last time, sAviOr never got "pwned", there is already so much evidence that has been presented by numerous members here and scene followers that he did not play to his fullest capabilities in that series, stop it already with the blatant war3 community/wcreplaysish fanboy ignorance and stupidity.
<3 Bisu, hope he wins this OSL
OMG TIMESHIFT Welcome to Bisu 3-0 sAviOr Gom TV MSL 1
On November 19 2007 04:27 JoxxOr wrote: Mind pwned Bisu...
I still <3 Bisu
For the god damn last time, Bisu never got "pwned", there is already so much evidence that has been presented by numerous members here and scene followers that he did not play to his fullest capabilities in that series, stop it already with the blatant war3 community/wcreplaysish fanboy ignorance and stupidity.
<3 Bisu, hope he wins this OSL
me as a Bisu fan, you embarrass me.... Bisu lost. simple as that. no excuses. end of discussion.
I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
On November 19 2007 04:27 JoxxOr wrote: Mind pwned Bisu...
I still <3 Bisu
For the god damn last time, Bisu never got "pwned", there is already so much evidence that has been presented by numerous members here and scene followers that he did not play to his fullest capabilities in that series, stop it already with the blatant war3 community/wcreplaysish fanboy ignorance and stupidity.
<3 Bisu, hope he wins this OSL
me as a Bisu fan, you embarrass me.... Bisu lost. simple as that. no excuses. end of discussion.
That's an incorrect use of the word 'excuse'. The arguments made by the Bisu fans include no excuses. If you're not mature enough to handle a discussion of a match, then stay off tl.net.
why was my title changed from " Dont worry " from Bisu to "[Spoiler]"Dont worry" from MSL 2nd place??? i understand the [Spoiler] part but instead of " from Bisu " admin changed to MSL 2nd place <----- this is really depressing..... oh well just wanted to point that out.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Bisu might not have played as well as he normally does, but just because Mind got "lucky" with positions, mines, and build orders doesn't take away from his play.
Saying that Bisu would have won a majority of games if they played 100 times is just stupid. He obviously wasn't in top form and lost the MSL and that's that. Bisu still has the chance for revenge next season and hopefully we'll be able to see him perform at his best.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Bisu might not have played as well as he normally does, but just because Mind got "lucky" with positions, mines, and build orders doesn't take away from his play.
Saying that Bisu would have won a majority of games if they played 100 times is just stupid. He obviously wasn't in top form and lost the MSL and that's that. Bisu still has the chance for revenge next season and hopefully we'll be able to see him perform at his best.
Nobody is saying Mind doesn't deserve it.
But what Nony is saying isn't "just stupid." It's a good point and one worth making. Don't dismiss things just because you disagree with them.
I don't see how Bisu having a chance next season somehow makes Nony's point "just stupid" and not worth saying.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Haha. Not sure who those "best analysts" are, but they obviously don't like Mind all that much
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Bisu might not have played as well as he normally does, but just because Mind got "lucky" with positions, mines, and build orders doesn't take away from his play.
Saying that Bisu would have won a majority of games if they played 100 times is just stupid. He obviously wasn't in top form and lost the MSL and that's that. Bisu still has the chance for revenge next season and hopefully we'll be able to see him perform at his best.
Nobody is saying Mind doesn't deserve it.
But what Nony is saying isn't "just stupid." It's a good point and one worth making. Don't dismiss things just because you disagree with them.
I don't see how Bisu having a chance next season somehow makes Nony's point "just stupid" and not worth saying.
I'm not dismissing it- it just isn't logical to say something like that. I could claim that if Savior played Bisu 100 times in GOM 1 that Savior might've been able to win a majority of times but what does that even mean? I could also say that "the evidence" was from analysts who watched how Bisu won the games and what the game turning events were, but Savior lost and that's final.
It might be consoling to the fans to think that if the players played a Bo100 their favorite player would win, but what I'm trying to get at is that the games have been played and it doesn't matter what could have been or what would be in a theoretical situation.
And I say that Bisu has a chance next season because it's true. I was only disagreeing with Nony's part about using the Bo100 as part of the argument.
Before Bisu loss there were like 3-4 or 'hardcore ' Bisu haters... and now AFTER the loss... so many :D... I don't get it why you have to hate somebody?! If you like Bisu or Mind than cheer for one or the other and get over it! Be happy that both of them provided us with some good matches. I think people who hate some player are a little bit insecure in the capabilities of their favorite player and try to 'help' with this stupid hate against other players. Just because Bisu lost his 3rd final is not suddenly making him a bad player and it's normal that Mind won in part because Bisu made mistakes or didn't played at full capacity. But that's how all the games go. The players who makes less mistakes wins. So let's cheer for both of them or if you're really fanatic about someone cheer for him but please stop this hate thing!
I would expect nothing less than a whitewash of this OSL to make up for it from Bisu. Particularly given I don't see anyone except possibly Stork as a player with a good chance over Bisu in the OSL (This of course assumes the loss means Bisu becomes even more motivated.)
Very nice thing to do of him, throwing the fans a bone like that =) I never really cared for Bisu (besides the fact he's the obvious dominant player right now) but little things like this make SC that more fun to follow. GL Bruce Lee toss!
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Haha. Not sure who those "best analysts" are, but they obviously don't like Mind all that much
Or just Protoss users?
I'm a Terran player who has a lot of respect for Mind and his MSL run, and I still recognize the points at which fairly amateurish mistakes cost Bisu all three of the games he lost. It's entirely reasonable to come to this conclusion without bias, the games speak for themselves.
People saying that Bisu made mistakes he is expected not to make doesn't have to mean that the poster thinks Mind is undeserving or a bad player.
Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them.
On November 19 2007 08:36 NonY[rC] wrote: Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them.
I wouldn't take Mynock too seriously, he's just as much a Terran fanboy as he claims others are Protoss fanboys. You guys can go in circles of internet argumentation, I'd advise to just ignore him.
Mind went for timing pushes when Hwasin played pretty standard and went 1 fact into CC.
Bisu's gonna be upset and really motivated so is Savior. It should be a great series. Bisu gets so upset when he loses. He usually leaves losing big series and matches in tears. I think that shows his passion for the game.
What a great message. Bisu's gonna be back and better than ever this OSL and the next MSL. Next time he plays Mind he'll have made adjustments similar to the Flash game. Bisu's clutch play and how he hates losing kinda reminds me of Michael Jordan.
Bisu should stop trying to be a cutie girlie n00b and stands up like a real man. The "^^!" is just so gay. If I just lost a final of 50kUSD to some noname player like Mind, I would've posted some thing like ">.<". I hope Savior will bitch slap pretty boi face Beesuit this Friday, though the chance it's gonna happen is pretty slim...
On November 19 2007 12:18 LibertyTerran wrote: Bisu should stop trying to be a cutie girlie n00b and stands up like a real man. The "^^!" is just so gay. If I just lost a final of 50kUSD to some noname player like Mind, I would've posted some thing like ">.<". I hope Savior will bitch slap pretty boi face Beesuit this Friday, though the chance it's gonna happen is pretty slim...
On November 19 2007 12:18 LibertyTerran wrote: Bisu should stop trying to be a cutie girlie n00b and stands up like a real man. The "^^!" is just so gay. If I just lost a final of 50kUSD to some noname player like Mind, I would've posted some thing like ">.<". I hope Savior will bitch slap pretty boi face Beesuit this Friday, though the chance it's gonna happen is pretty slim...
yes because ">.<" is so much more manlier than "^^!" lol
On November 19 2007 12:18 LibertyTerran wrote: Bisu should stop trying to be a cutie girlie n00b and stands up like a real man. The "^^!" is just so gay. If I just lost a final of 50kUSD to some noname player like Mind, I would've posted some thing like ">.<". I hope Savior will bitch slap pretty boi face Beesuit this Friday, though the chance it's gonna happen is pretty slim...
yes because ">.<" is so much more manlier than "^^!" lol
he wouldnt know, its just his way of secretly hating on bisu oh and i never worried,since i am a BELIEVER
On November 19 2007 12:18 LibertyTerran wrote: Bisu should stop trying to be a cutie girlie n00b and stands up like a real man. The "^^!" is just so gay. If I just lost a final of 50kUSD to some noname player like Mind, I would've posted some thing like ">.<". I hope Savior will bitch slap pretty boi face Beesuit this Friday, though the chance it's gonna happen is pretty slim...
Saying gay is so freakin old and so fuckin gay.
why dont you just straight out say " i hate Bisu "
What a lot of people are saying about Bisu is the same thing that people said when Savior lost to Bisu. It’s wrong and time will (probably) reinforce that as they play more games and similar results follow. It makes zero sense to say Bisu is still the better player when Mind just fucking beat him in the grand finals. Shut up about the bullshit with the “expert analysis”. They both played to their full capacities, but Bisu still lost. It doesn't mean Bisu can't improve or do better next time because Starcraft is a game with so much variables, and things like luck, tempo, condition, etc all come into play, but that "sense of star" or "winning it when it matters" or "mind of a champion" arguments still apply just the same. Just like Bisu beat Hwasin for whatever reason, Mind beat Bisu too.
On November 19 2007 08:36 NonY[rC] wrote: Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them.
I may not be one of tl's 'best analysts' but the series to me was pretty convincingly won by mind
Set 1 showed minds use of vultures to the fullest extent. Mind gained a large amount of knowledge from his vultures (as he stated in his interview which many ridiculed). Firstly, he went vult -> tank and with the first vulture he got it into Bisu's main (avoiding goons). Thus learning of bisu's tech and what not, as (imo) scouting well is the definitive factor between first and second at this high level (feel free to debate me). Mind gained a slight advantage here simply because of that one vulture. Later, when Bisu was reaver dropping mind, he sent a squad of vulture up the ramp and saw bisu's third. And subsequently capitalised on it. His barracks was also nicely placed to find any island attempts at 10 - which put bisu off a bit. I don't think bisu played any worse than he usually does during this set, and i think it was more mind putting bisu out his comfort zone than bisu having a bad day. Players play alot worse when they are in unfamiliar situations, although bisu is a pvt god, i don't think he expected the gameplan adopted by mind (as seen in the late legs - not seen at top level without reason). Remember, pros practiced these builds for days on end - nothing is accidental build-wise.
Set 2 showed Mind inexperience at the top level, and arguably couldve help bisu off but fumbled around a bit (imo) resulting in him dropping the set. Full props to bisu
Set 3 i felt bisu's build to be off, probably because he was expected fd. I felt that his his choice of robo before templar was incorrect. Mind used a build which (imo) is strong on python and (generally) easily crushes the typical protoss builds of fast robo. I mean, how often do you actually see 14nex on this map anyway? Bisu played countering FD, Mind played countering the typical protoss setup. Full props to mind for choosing the better build on the day.
Set 4 Bisu read mind wrong - not necessarily surprising either. Xellos went mnm agianst him on this map, and since he was denied scouting with a wall - late fac tech (to bisu's scout) and many rines. Going forge first wasn't a bad idea to counter the mnm's that never actually came (fast cc ftw). This put bisu behind, and mind just rode it right to the very end. I wasn't ever convinced that 8 carriers were going to save the game for him. Minds macro was too strong. And once his carriers were forced back by the wraiths, mind was safe to raid expos and his nat - cutting bisu's macro. Mind's choice of wraith was brilliant - confining Bisu's carriers to the bottom right expo, allow his forces (on the other side of the map) to raid bisu's base and subsequently gain a dominant macro advantage and as mind said - 'it all went according to plan'.
Although we haven't seen much of mind, he is playing smart and playing smooth. Despite not seeing his lategame i have every confidence that he was the better player between the two at that day - and that bisu did give it his all. His appearance of playing worse is simply due to him being puit off, and reading mind wrong in game 4 allowing mind a macro advantage. Game 3 was just a better logical choice by Mind, and game 2 was bisu showing us his brilliance.
On November 19 2007 08:36 NonY[rC] wrote: Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them.
I may not be one of tl's 'best analysts' but the series to me was pretty convincingly won by mind
Set 1 showed minds use of vultures to the fullest extent. Mind gained a large amount of knowledge from his vultures (as he stated in his interview which many ridiculed). Firstly, he went vult -> tank and with the first vulture he got it into Bisu's main (avoiding goons). Thus learning of bisu's tech and what not, as (imo) scouting well is the definitive factor between first and second at this high level (feel free to debate me). Mind gained a slight advantage here simply because of that one vulture. Later, when Bisu was reaver dropping mind, he sent a squad of vulture up the ramp and saw bisu's third. And subsequently capitalised on it. His barracks was also nicely placed to find any island attempts at 10 - which put bisu off a bit. I don't think bisu played any worse than he usually does during this set, and i think it was more mind putting bisu out his comfort zone than bisu having a bad day. Players play alot worse when they are in unfamiliar situations, although bisu is a pvt god, i don't think he expected the gameplan adopted by mind (as seen in the late legs - not seen at top level without reason). Remember, pros practiced these builds for days on end - nothing is accidental build-wise.
Bisu nearly always makes his 3rd nexus pretty early in the game, so it's nothing out of the ordinary. Not taking the island expansion was definitely a poor choice, while Mind showed excellent timing with the attack at exactly the right time. However, Mind playing flawlessly still doesn't take away the fact that Bisu did make uncharacteristically large micro mistakes that cost him the game (zlot clumps dying to mines). Otherwise, the game would've continued on with both players about even IMO.
On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote: Set 3 i felt bisu's build to be off, probably because he was expected fd. I felt that his his choice of robo before templar was incorrect. Mind used a build which (imo) is strong on python and (generally) easily crushes the typical protoss builds of fast robo. I mean, how often do you actually see 14nex on this map anyway? Bisu played countering FD, Mind played countering the typical protoss setup. Full props to mind for choosing the better build on the day.
Regardless of the build, if you watch closely Bisu was THIS close to fending off Mind's push and capturing a huge advantage, except for that one stray misclick onto a mine (7:45) that splashed 4 units. This cost Bisu his army and then lost him about 10+ probes and leading to a downward spiral that pushed him into a state of desperation. Further mistakes were probably due to him knowing that it was an all-or-nothing after taking such heavy economic losses, and I think this mindset partially carried on into the 4th game.
I am sure that if that misclick hadn't happened, everyone right now would be praising Bisu for his awesome zealot scout denying, push breaking skill and BO choice, and his momentum probably would've carried over to the game on Loki.
On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote: Set 4 Bisu read mind wrong - not necessarily surprising either. Xellos went mnm agianst him on this map, and since he was denied scouting with a wall - late fac tech (to bisu's scout) and many rines. Going forge first wasn't a bad idea to counter the mnm's that never actually came (fast cc ftw). This put bisu behind, and mind just rode it right to the very end. I wasn't ever convinced that 8 carriers were going to save the game for him. Minds macro was too strong. And once his carriers were forced back by the wraiths, mind was safe to raid expos and his nat - cutting bisu's macro. Mind's choice of wraith was brilliant - confining Bisu's carriers to the bottom right expo, allow his forces (on the other side of the map) to raid bisu's base and subsequently gain a dominant macro advantage and as mind said - 'it all went according to plan'.
Agreed. Mind showed brilliant play here + awful decision making by Bisu.
Overall, Mind played very solidly with almost no major errors at all in games 1,3 and 4. I don't think anyone's denying that he didn't win the series convincingly, but it's just that the Bisu we usually know and love also has close to perfect decision making combined w/insane macro and micro. Bisu clearly didn't show his top form in this set unfortunately, and thus Mind fully deserved his win.
On November 19 2007 08:36 NonY[rC] wrote: Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them.
Huh? Like I said, I never knew who those top analyzers were, I never read anything you wrote about the issue, and I barely even know who you are (j/k, but still, that was not the point of my post) :/ Nevertheless, I'm sure that analysis was good or something.
HB says: "I wouldn't take Mynock too seriously, he's just as much a Terran fanboy as he claims others are Protoss fanboys."
That's absolutely true. Except the others don't acknowledge where they stand often enough.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Haha. Not sure who those "best analysts" are, but they obviously don't like Mind all that much
Or just Protoss users?
I'm a Terran player who has a lot of respect for Mind and his MSL run, and I still recognize the points at which fairly amateurish mistakes cost Bisu all three of the games he lost. It's entirely reasonable to come to this conclusion without bias, the games speak for themselves.
People saying that Bisu made mistakes he is expected not to make doesn't have to mean that the poster thinks Mind is undeserving or a bad player.
Oh, I agree with you on those points, except I don't agree that Mind could not have won otherwise (but you didn't make that claim AFAIK). Mind's play was just way too stable for Bisu. Except for the game 2 run, NO harrassment of Bisu made any effect. The games might have lasted longer, but Bisu just didn't play his own game. Because he couldn't. Why make assumptions about those "100 games" stuff at all? It's absolutely unsound IMHO.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Haha. Not sure who those "best analysts" are, but they obviously don't like Mind all that much
Or just Protoss users?
I'm a Terran player who has a lot of respect for Mind and his MSL run, and I still recognize the points at which fairly amateurish mistakes cost Bisu all three of the games he lost. It's entirely reasonable to come to this conclusion without bias, the games speak for themselves.
People saying that Bisu made mistakes he is expected not to make doesn't have to mean that the poster thinks Mind is undeserving or a bad player.
Oh, I agree with you on those points, except I don't agree that Mind could not have won otherwise (but you didn't make that claim AFAIK). Mind's play was just way too stable for Bisu. Except for the game 2 run, NO harrassment of Bisu made any effect. The games might have lasted longer, but Bisu just didn't play his own game. Because he couldn't. Why make assumptions about those "100 games" stuff at all? It's absolutely unsound IMHO.
Bisu generally shows very good push break micro and decision making, in games 1 and 3 it just wasn't there. He'd choose bad times to attack, or lose large groups of zealots to mines, etc.
Thus Bisu not playing his own game "because he couldn't" is just wrong. Mind didn't lay mines better than Hwasin did, or somehow force Bisu to attack at a bad moment better than Hwasin did. Most of the mistakes Bisu made in those two games were entirely unforced by Mind.
Again, I'm not taking credit away from Mind, because he played strong when it mattered and Bisu did not. Mind is the deserving MSL champion as much as I hate to say that.
But you claiming that Mind somehow forced these mistakes when they were clearly entirely Bisu's own choice and error in execution is simply inaccurate. You don't have to be a Protoss fanboy to see that.
Yes Bisu made some mistakes (as well as Mind in game 2 - had he started his turrets earlier, or made one also near his cc the result could be 3-0). But those mistakes are just the tip of the iceberg. I see Mind himself as the main reason of Bisu making mistakes. Like Savior acting "strange" against Bisu every time making unusual mistakes, Mind won the nerve battle which is the most important. Being aggressive against Bisu? Who would dare?? But Mind didnt play "go take me champ, I m yours" style like kwanro did and it frightened bisu. Like savior was frightened of someone who was not trembling at his 80% zvp. Xellos had all the abilities to win Bisu, as well as hwasin. But xelos was just sitting not moving forward after bisu sacrificed all his units, waiting for arbiter to recall to his base and kick the shit out of him. I am not saying the units and micro/macro are not important, but they are managed by real people according to their inner state. Assuming that players would've played 100 times is just nonsense. It would most likely lead to a) players adapting to eachanother style and playing comfortably anyone against anyone b) quite different *random* dominating players (like mania owning at that 256 tourney) c) total death the Game which is perfect and extremely attractive as is - one b05 in front of camers and you dont have the 2nd chance. d) unpredictable results The example of a such "100 games" play can be seen in a stupid drama of latest tiebrakerks. Players fighting again and again and with no winner until someone dies from fatigue. I guess noone would be interested in even savior - bisu match after their 100 one after another matches playing laid-back sleepy games. Besides, The "Analytics" can pretend they know the future but life often flows differently. Look at the great analytics threads before the Mind - Savior match. Look at the deep predictions before Savior - PJ match. So this is the game where everything is possible. PS I like bisu and whoever else showing art. An important part of art is that there is only one chance and one MSL 3 and this time it was Mind's show.
On November 19 2007 14:42 teamsolid wrote:I may not be one of tl's 'best analysts' but the series to me was pretty convincingly won by mind
Set 1 showed minds use of vultures to the fullest extent. Mind gained a large amount of knowledge from his vultures (as he stated in his interview which many ridiculed). Firstly, he went vult -> tank and with the first vulture he got it into Bisu's main (avoiding goons). Thus learning of bisu's tech and what not, as (imo) scouting well is the definitive factor between first and second at this high level (feel free to debate me). Mind gained a slight advantage here simply because of that one vulture. Later, when Bisu was reaver dropping mind, he sent a squad of vulture up the ramp and saw bisu's third. And subsequently capitalised on it. His barracks was also nicely placed to find any island attempts at 10 - which put bisu off a bit. I don't think bisu played any worse than he usually does during this set, and i think it was more mind putting bisu out his comfort zone than bisu having a bad day. Players play alot worse when they are in unfamiliar situations, although bisu is a pvt god, i don't think he expected the gameplan adopted by mind (as seen in the late legs - not seen at top level without reason). Remember, pros practiced these builds for days on end - nothing is accidental build-wise.
Bisu nearly always makes his 3rd nexus pretty early in the game, so it's nothing out of the ordinary. Not taking the island expansion was definitely a poor choice, while Mind showed excellent timing with the attack at exactly the right time. However, Mind playing flawlessly still doesn't take away the fact that Bisu did make uncharacteristically large micro mistakes that cost him the game (zlot clumps dying to mines). Otherwise, the game would've continued on with both players about even IMO. [/quote]Even better for mind who just rode out Bisu's pattern. Although, he did scout it - but he may have been looking to confirm the pattern.. i dont know - either way its full credit to mind. Those micro mistakes are grossly exaggerated - yes they were bad but it really was just that one instance. IMO the reaver drop doing no damage what so ever was more pivotal to the outcome of the game than the micro mistake. (IIRC) By that stage bisu had lost alot defending the 3rd (he may have lost it... can't remember) and mind was taking his 3rd - bisu was already behind largely in macro and thus even if he didnt lose those zealots, and DID break the line he still would have been behind.
On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote: Set 3 i felt bisu's build to be off, probably because he was expected fd. I felt that his his choice of robo before templar was incorrect. Mind used a build which (imo) is strong on python and (generally) easily crushes the typical protoss builds of fast robo. I mean, how often do you actually see 14nex on this map anyway? Bisu played countering FD, Mind played countering the typical protoss setup. Full props to mind for choosing the better build on the day.
Regardless of the build, if you watch closely Bisu was THIS close to fending off Mind's push and capturing a huge advantage, except for that one stray misclick onto a mine (7:45) that splashed 4 units. This cost Bisu his army and then lost him about 10+ probes and leading to a downward spiral that pushed him into a state of desperation. Further mistakes were probably due to him knowing that it was an all-or-nothing after taking such heavy economic losses, and I think this mindset partially carried on into the 4th game.
I am sure that if that misclick hadn't happened, everyone right now would be praising Bisu for his awesome zealot scout denying, push breaking skill and BO choice, and his momentum probably would've carried over to the game on Loki.
I think i know which mine you're talking about, yes bisu showed some amazing micro there - but realistically it was a tall order for him to possibly hold that. Even if that 'mistake' hadnt happen (which are damn hard to avoid if you've ever played protoss - stupid goons) mind had reinforcements on the way and wouldve finished bisu off - maybe not at that moment, but still rather soon.
On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote: Set 4 Bisu read mind wrong - not necessarily surprising either. Xellos went mnm agianst him on this map, and since he was denied scouting with a wall - late fac tech (to bisu's scout) and many rines. Going forge first wasn't a bad idea to counter the mnm's that never actually came (fast cc ftw). This put bisu behind, and mind just rode it right to the very end. I wasn't ever convinced that 8 carriers were going to save the game for him. Minds macro was too strong. And once his carriers were forced back by the wraiths, mind was safe to raid expos and his nat - cutting bisu's macro. Mind's choice of wraith was brilliant - confining Bisu's carriers to the bottom right expo, allow his forces (on the other side of the map) to raid bisu's base and subsequently gain a dominant macro advantage and as mind said - 'it all went according to plan'.
Agreed. Mind showed brilliant play here + awful decision making by Bisu.
Overall, Mind played very solidly with almost no major errors at all in games 1,3 and 4. I don't think anyone's denying that he didn't win the series convincingly, but it's just that the Bisu we usually know and love also has close to perfect decision making combined w/insane macro and micro. Bisu clearly didn't show his top form in this set unfortunately, and thus Mind fully deserved his win.
[/qoute]Id take care saying what you said about bisu, there was a time where most players would say that about savior, oov, nada And also, careful not to confuse bisu's pvz (which is unparalleled) to his other matchups where he is touchable. And i think what mind showed here is that yes, bisu, your god and savior, isn't as godly as you'd like to think. I cannot single out (m)any errors on minds part (and those that i can i can cite bisu equivalences). But on the whole, mind's mindset and strategy throughout the bo5 showed bisu-esque like planning. Because arguably, bisu is the best (or one of) simulataneous match players out there. Simply because of the effort the coaching staff at MBC place on it (shows in all other MBC greats as well). Mind matched bisu toe for toe in this area - which many players usually dont (i think savior had - but he got pwned too early). Thus he took away bisus 'hack' so to speak and brought it back to a game of timing/execution. Bisu lacked the execution (right decisions at the right time) to match mind and lost it. The 'micro' analysis reveals that bisu probably made more micro mistakes - but because he couldn't compensate for this with his over game sense and plan (as mind equaled it) he couldn't take the win.
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Eh. Doesn't matter.
Even if Bisu has the best statistics, it doesn't matter if he loses at the time when it matters most. Just like KTF's Proleague record used to be insane, they still never achieved the championship win.
Bisu lost to Mind even when we expected otherwise. Same with iloveOOv. Same with Savior.
Mind has just had an outstanding MSL run. It's not so different from GomTV MSL 1, because Savior was the overwhelming favorite to win. Just like the expected champion was upset, Bisu was upset this season.
Savior, with his 80% ZvP rating back in the day, lost to Hoony, a 10% PvZer. Whatever. Sometimes, people just lose. What matters is winning on the right day. In the end, if you lose... having a large probability of winning means nothing at all. Winning is key, despite your statistics.
HB, you're reading too much into what I said. I merely pointed out what Nony mentioned about those 100 games, which is kinda stupid. Sure, Bisu made mistakes, I have noticed them quite clearly when watching the games, as they were obvious.
However. You're saying they were absolutely unforced. Well, I say they were unprovoked by Mind's passivity. As I said, Bisu couldn't play his own game against Mind, so he was desperate. He felt that unless he cripples Mind somehow, somewhere, he's doomed. That made him make rushed decisions, as he was feeling the pressure (especially as a defending champ, with everything to lose).
But I'm not really interested in arguing about all this. Again, I merely pointed out what Nony said about thos 100 games and how those views are supported by some top analysts whom he didn't even name. As I haven't happen to come across any such 100 games connections anywhere else, I made that mocking post. My point is - on that day, in those games, Mind was BETTER than Bisu, no matter how you look at it. That stuff about 100 games is absolutely unfounded, and has no ground in an analysis o any sort, hence why I thought it's bollox.
If you agree that under those conditions it was merely luck that helped Mind, and that had they played more games under those very same conditions, on that same day, for that same trophy etc, etc and Bisu would have won - well, that's you opinion, and I can only say I disagree with that wholeheartedly.
If however that's not what you're saying, I don't even know what we're arguing about now...
On November 19 2007 05:30 ambit!ous1 wrote: why was my title changed from " Dont worry " from Bisu to "[Spoiler]"Dont worry" from MSL 2nd place??? i understand the [Spoiler] part but instead of " from Bisu " admin changed to MSL 2nd place <----- this is really depressing..... oh well just wanted to point that out.
That would've been me.
I couldn't put [Spoiler] and leave ' "Don't worry" from Bisu ', that would've been kinda obvious. And I couldn't leave it without a spoiler... that was the best I could come up with. I can give it another day then change it back for you.
On November 19 2007 05:30 ambit!ous1 wrote: why was my title changed from " Dont worry " from Bisu to "[Spoiler]"Dont worry" from MSL 2nd place??? i understand the [Spoiler] part but instead of " from Bisu " admin changed to MSL 2nd place <----- this is really depressing..... oh well just wanted to point that out.
That would've been me.
I couldn't put [Spoiler] and leave ' "Don't worry" from Bisu ', that would've been kinda obvious. And I couldn't leave it without a spoiler... that was the best I could come up with. I can give it another day then change it back for you.
On November 19 2007 20:50 Mynock wrote: ... However. You're saying they were absolutely unforced. Well, I say they were unprovoked by Mind's passivity. As I said, Bisu couldn't play his own game against Mind, so he was desperate. He felt that unless he cripples Mind somehow, somewhere, he's doomed. That made him make rushed decisions, as he was feeling the pressure (especially as a defending champ, with everything to lose). ...
I have already said I agree that Mind was better and deserves the trophy. I don't know why you are arguing a point that I have already stated. I edited out all your redundant arguing.
But what you say in the above quote is simply inaccurate. I'm attributing Bisu's mistakes (that legitimately lost him the final) to his own actions, and you're saying that it's "Mind's passivity" as if Mind somehow is better at being passive than Hwasin or Xellos. He did not lay mines in a special way or leave his tanks sieged in a special way that was better than how Hwasin or Xellos did. The only difference was Bisu's decision making and execution, not some magical "passivity superiority" from Mind. Everything else that you say about Bisu feeling desperate and pressured is purely conjecture and a product of you imposing your pro-Terran bias into your opinions.
I don't know what else to say other than that I disagree with you. Not much more to add, each side has already made their points and this discussion has already become stale.
On November 19 2007 18:45 Plexa wrote: Even better for mind who just rode out Bisu's pattern. Although, he did scout it - but he may have been looking to confirm the pattern.. i dont know - either way its full credit to mind. Those micro mistakes are grossly exaggerated - yes they were bad but it really was just that one instance. IMO the reaver drop doing no damage what so ever was more pivotal to the outcome of the game than the micro mistake. (IIRC) By that stage bisu had lost alot defending the 3rd (he may have lost it... can't remember) and mind was taking his 3rd - bisu was already behind largely in macro and thus even if he didnt lose those zealots, and DID break the line he still would have been behind.
I think i know which mine you're talking about, yes bisu showed some amazing micro there - but realistically it was a tall order for him to possibly hold that. Even if that 'mistake' hadnt happen (which are damn hard to avoid if you've ever played protoss - stupid goons) mind had reinforcements on the way and wouldve finished bisu off - maybe not at that moment, but still rather soon.
You "think" is not good enough. You spend this time writing a big block of text analyzing the game, but didn't watch/rewatch games 1 and 3 closely enough to notice the key turning points that led to Bisu's losses.
When he lost his huge zealot clump to mines in Game 1, this was RIGHT before Mind was able to take out his 3rd nexus. If he had fended that off, with his usual push-breaking micro he wouldn't have lost that expansion that set him behind by a lot.
As for the mine in game 3, I made a detailed comment about it earlier. It was a misclick involving 4 units, not an error forced by Mind or anything like that. Bisu had 4 gateways so his reinforcements come out faster than Mind's fyi, and you can see how close Mind's are to arriving w/the minimap (no tanks on their way).
On November 18 2007 11:20 teamsolid wrote: Game 3: Again, one small micro mistake by Bisu at a crucial moment completely turned that game around that isn't even obvious unless you watch closely. This is the beauty of SC.
At 7:45-7:47 here: (or 9:45-9:47 in the .ogm video),
At this point it was exactly 3 tanks, 1 vult and 2 marines vs 5 goons + 2 zealots. Normally, I think the Toss would come out on top with these two armies.
At 7:45, Bisu saw a mine get planted down below his troops, but he misclicked when he tried to target it (or it sunk into the ground before he could react in time), and this resulted in 2 zealots and 2 goons charging towards it and splashing all 4 units with the mine + taking out a goon. Furthermore, if the zealots hadn't been damaged by the mine, it would've caused a perfect mine drag at 7:48/9:48 on the rine/vult group of Mind's as it walked over. If that mine hadn't gone off at exactly that moment, I am absolutely sure that Bisu would've repelled that push without having to pull/lose any probes, thus giving him a huge advantage rather than mind (2 base vs 1).
Anyways, both players up to that point had virtually flawless micro and Mind had Boxer-esque mine placement, but I thought it was amazing how that one little mistake was the turning point that led to a cascade of events that ultimately ended in his loss.
On November 19 2007 18:45 Plexa wrote: Mind won the series, bisu did not lose it.
It's a combination of the two. This doesn't take away from Mind's skill or performance whatsoever. End of story. All we are saying is that Bisu normally plays better than what he showed. This can be attested to by detailed analysis from players who are far more highly skilled than me, such as Nony.
On November 19 2007 20:50 Mynock wrote: ... However. You're saying they were absolutely unforced. Well, I say they were unprovoked by Mind's passivity. As I said, Bisu couldn't play his own game against Mind, so he was desperate. He felt that unless he cripples Mind somehow, somewhere, he's doomed. That made him make rushed decisions, as he was feeling the pressure (especially as a defending champ, with everything to lose). ...
I have already said I agree that Mind was better and deserves the trophy. I don't know why you are arguing a point that I have already stated. I edited out all your redundant arguing.
But what you say in the above quote is simply inaccurate. I'm attributing Bisu's mistakes (that legitimately lost him the final) to his own actions, and you're saying that it's "Mind's passivity" as if Mind somehow is better at being passive than Hwasin or Xellos. He did not lay mines in a special way or leave his tanks sieged in a special way that was better than how Hwasin or Xellos did. The only difference was Bisu's decision making and execution, not some magical "passivity superiority" from Mind. Everything else that you say about Bisu feeling desperate and pressured is purely conjecture and a product of you imposing your pro-Terran bias into your opinions.
I don't know what else to say other than that I disagree with you. Not much more to add, each side has already made their points and this discussion has already become stale.
Haha, the only point I've asked you to answer in my post, and you omit it in the part you deem as "redundant"...
I don't even care about the rest, like I said. I don't, because I knew precisely this is going to happen after I realised Bisu was losing it. All the people backing him up so heavily will attribute things to cold weather, bright lights, lack of sleep, generally strange mistakes, bla bla, just to make things seem extraordinary. It was the same with the Bisu-Savior finals, and will always be the same when a newcomer underdog beats a champ. It's a constant rule. There's nothing I want to convince you of.
My initial post was referring to the part about "if 100 games were played, then, oh boy, oh boy..." which stroke me as a rather funny thing to say from any "analyst", let alone "best analysts".
I don't know what you're arguing about here, because those points of mine actually were irrelevant to what I was saying.
For the last time, if you agree with the 100 games nonsense, fine. If you don't, the better, because then we can at least agree that that's a pretty foolish thing to say, right?
All I'm saying is that those points you made were wrong (the ones I quoted).
I never argued anything else with you yet you seem to be intent on bringing it up. Regardless of how "irrelevant" you think the comments I quoted are, they still are wrong and show a pretty severe lack of understanding of what actually happened in the games, regardless of whether or not we agree on the "100 games" thing and excuses made after the result.
I'm getting ready for another post where you yet again argue something completely different.
Mynock the thing you don't understand is that when you say 'Bisu couldn't play his game so he was desperate', you're talking out of your ass. You don't know what Bisu's "game" is if you think that's true.
On November 20 2007 10:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Mynock the thing you don't understand is that when you say 'Bisu couldn't play his game so he was desperate', you're talking out of your ass. You don't know what Bisu's "game" is if you think that's true.
Steve, I was pointing out that Bisu couldn't harass Mind, and that indeed, can be seen by anybody (if you could find any flaws in Mind's defense, good for you). But not like I really care about it in the irst place. My knowledge of Bisu's style is absolutely irrelevant, as that was not what I was talking about. It's what YOU were trying to argue about, and I was foolish enough to reply to. I was not going into no detailed analysis, nor was I trying to suggest anything at all what you guys have derived from my words. I wasn't even talking about Bisu in the first place, I was talking about Nony's notion about how "top analysts agree" and "if 100 games were played", which I thought was bollox. I even said I agreed with both you Steve, and HB on several accounts, ffs. The only thing I didn't agree is how you all played on the "luck" horse so much.
How HB managed to pull out from my simple sentence some sort of game analysis and an attack on Bisu I have no idea, but that was quite a feat.
Then again maybe it was the "don't worry Nony, ignore him, our judgment is perfect and he's just a Terran fanboy" kinda thing.
I'll take extra care not to react to such raises in the future.
In the meanwhile, it's obvious you guys won't respond to how and what analysts agree to the 100 games and who was better on that day thing, I'll just leave it at that. I asked the same thing 5 times by now, I can see it's pointless.
Not that these discussions aren't pointless in the first place, really Same thing always happens after every single final play.
I really don't care about the rest of it, I'm just saying that if you think the phrase 'Bisu couldn't play his game and so he was desperate' is true, you dunno what that actually means
On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote: I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up.
Lol? Care to explain?
If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Bisu might not have played as well as he normally does, but just because Mind got "lucky" with positions, mines, and build orders doesn't take away from his play.
Saying that Bisu would have won a majority of games if they played 100 times is just stupid. He obviously wasn't in top form and lost the MSL and that's that. Bisu still has the chance for revenge next season and hopefully we'll be able to see him perform at his best.
Nobody is saying Mind doesn't deserve it.
But what Nony is saying isn't "just stupid." It's a good point and one worth making. Don't dismiss things just because you disagree with them.
I don't see how Bisu having a chance next season somehow makes Nony's point "just stupid" and not worth saying.
I think it's a 100% moot point, because they don't play 100 times and Mind still kicked Bisu's ass. The whole point of a bo5 is to eliminate garbage luck and find the better player.
When the Pistons beat the Lakers in 2004, people tried making the incorrect argument that the better team lost. In a single playoff game like the NFL? Sure, it's possible but not when you get dominated 4-1. Irregardless of talent, the Pistons were the better team, just as Mind is better than Bisu in the PvT matchup. There, I said what all Savior fans/bisu haters have been waiting to hear. You may disagree, but I've got a 3-1 score to back me up so your point, once again, is moot.
I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn.
On November 20 2007 15:27 cava wrote: I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn.
Your conclusion from the games was that Bisu was the one with a "campy" style???
Well I guess it's understandable if you haven't seen these two play before and are judging them solely on these 4 games, but your analysis about the style of the players is still pretty off.
- It's impossible to be consistent in PvT without playing a somewhat macro-oriented style in many games, because if the T turtles you are basically forced to do this (and most T's FE now)
- Terrans, especially the newer ones, always FE in TvP; Mind had one game with 1 fac CC, one game with a 1 fac CC into 3rd CC, one game dying to proxy and one game where he Joyo'd. In 3/4 games vs Savior he also 1 rax CC'd. These are exactly the type (except for the Joyo) builds, in 5/7 games, that you "hate."
- Bisu, among current Protoss, is probably the one that does the LEAST abusive macro builds, opting instead to oftentimes do safe robo before Nex and DT drop builds. That's his style, and it's a shame we didn't really get to see it in the MSL finals games.
On November 20 2007 15:49 Hot_Bid wrote: - Bisu, among current Protoss, is probably the one that does the LEAST abusive macro builds, opting instead to oftentimes do safe robo before Nex and DT drop builds. That's his style, and it's a shame we didn't really get to see it in the MSL finals games.
I agree with all points except this one. Bisu is a really strong macro player. Sometimes he (tech) rushes (e.g. reaver/DT off 1 base) but often he pulls off some crazy/risky macro oriented build, like a relatively fast 2nd expansion, or a 14 nexus in PvT without scouting before (he did that against Mind too in at least 1 game, IIRC it was the one on Python). Things like that are very risky but he is often lucky that the opponent doesn't do a timing attack (Mind did that, though). Once his expansions are running he can usually outmacro his opponent quite easily.
On November 20 2007 15:49 Hot_Bid wrote: - Bisu, among current Protoss, is probably the one that does the LEAST abusive macro builds, opting instead to oftentimes do safe robo before Nex and DT drop builds. That's his style, and it's a shame we didn't really get to see it in the MSL finals games.
I agree with all points except this one. Bisu is a really strong macro player. Sometimes he (tech) rushes (e.g. reaver/DT off 1 base) but often he pulls off some crazy/risky macro oriented build, like a relatively fast 2nd expansion, or a 14 nexus in PvT without scouting before (he did that against Mind too in at least 1 game, IIRC it was the one on Python). Things like that are very risky but he is often lucky that the opponent doesn't do a timing attack (Mind did that, though). Once his expansions are running he can usually outmacro his opponent quite easily.
I did not say Bisu was not a strong macro player. Being a strong macro player does not automatically mean you do risky macro builds.
I'm saying most of the time, and relative to other Protoss players, Bisu plays "safe" early game PvT. He gets robo and obs early, he often 2 gates and usually his expo is later than the Terran's, whether due to guarding against cheese, extra goons, reaver, or DT drop. Yes, there are examples of him doing a 14nex or a FE build, but compared to other top PvT players like Stork, Bisu's strategy is not one to take risky opening builds to secure a macro advantage, like blind 1 Gate Nex or 14nex.
Yes, the 14nex vs Mind was an exception. (Before people start jumping on me, the 14nex is no reason to discredit Mind's victory in that game). In fact, Bisu often relies on his ability to catch up to the Terran's early eco advantage during midgame and lategame stages (see the Hwasin games).
Contrasting Bisu's style with Stork, who often does very risky early game builds to secure a macro advantage and then plays really safe during the midgame portion of a PvT.
On November 20 2007 15:27 cava wrote: I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn.
ahahaha
how do u expect a protoss to play vs a turtle terran?
the bo100 argument is indeed a stupid one of a hurt fanboy.... all those "best analysts" probably predicted bisu to come out on top in this bo5. now those "best analysts" predict bisu to come out on top of a theoretical bo100 cus well, their predictions didnt exactly work out on the bo5. Seldom heard bigger bs.
On November 20 2007 15:27 cava wrote: I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn.
Well sAviOr could have said that but it probably won’t make a difference when you’re depressed over a big loss; but hopefully we don’t see another star dwindle down to 3rd best.
On November 20 2007 15:27 cava wrote: I just watched these games, the terran really impressed me a lot. I havn't seen either of these guys play before and I must say that I hate bisu's style so much, its so campy and macro oriented. Even though im a protoss player at heart I was glad to see bisu lose because I just really detest that style of play. The terran had some sick micro damn.
I'm not a huge fan of anyone else than Boxer, but like to watch both Bisu and Savior very much, I have nothing against Mind, and there were a few Boxerish things in there I guess, like wraiths vs Carriers. So maybe I will like his games when I get to understand his style a little better.
To be honest this final was nothing like Bisu vs Savior when it comes to power and quality, and I never felt Mind controlling the final like Bisu did vs Savior. Maybe Mind will make a huge splash, or maybe he will just get another MSL and that's that. Maybe the best terran is in the OSL, who knows.
And when you watch that first game and see the reaver scarabs explode into nothingness not once but twice or more, and Bisu loosing so many units to mines, you understand that this is going to be a rough ride. After seeing him play vs Hwasin's mines it was hard to accept him making such mistakes.
But the good thing about having a player like Bisu against the ropes is to see the amazing micro he shows to keep himself in the games
Bisu and Savior will be amazing, and sad that whoever exits in that match will be accused of slumping (true or not).
EPT
