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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 19 2007 08:36 NonY[rC] wrote:
Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them. I may not be one of tl's 'best analysts' but the series to me was pretty convincingly won by mind
Set 1 showed minds use of vultures to the fullest extent. Mind gained a large amount of knowledge from his vultures (as he stated in his interview which many ridiculed). Firstly, he went vult -> tank and with the first vulture he got it into Bisu's main (avoiding goons). Thus learning of bisu's tech and what not, as (imo) scouting well is the definitive factor between first and second at this high level (feel free to debate me). Mind gained a slight advantage here simply because of that one vulture. Later, when Bisu was reaver dropping mind, he sent a squad of vulture up the ramp and saw bisu's third. And subsequently capitalised on it. His barracks was also nicely placed to find any island attempts at 10 - which put bisu off a bit. I don't think bisu played any worse than he usually does during this set, and i think it was more mind putting bisu out his comfort zone than bisu having a bad day. Players play alot worse when they are in unfamiliar situations, although bisu is a pvt god, i don't think he expected the gameplan adopted by mind (as seen in the late legs - not seen at top level without reason). Remember, pros practiced these builds for days on end - nothing is accidental build-wise.
Set 2 showed Mind inexperience at the top level, and arguably couldve help bisu off but fumbled around a bit (imo) resulting in him dropping the set. Full props to bisu
Set 3 i felt bisu's build to be off, probably because he was expected fd. I felt that his his choice of robo before templar was incorrect. Mind used a build which (imo) is strong on python and (generally) easily crushes the typical protoss builds of fast robo. I mean, how often do you actually see 14nex on this map anyway? Bisu played countering FD, Mind played countering the typical protoss setup. Full props to mind for choosing the better build on the day.
Set 4 Bisu read mind wrong - not necessarily surprising either. Xellos went mnm agianst him on this map, and since he was denied scouting with a wall - late fac tech (to bisu's scout) and many rines. Going forge first wasn't a bad idea to counter the mnm's that never actually came (fast cc ftw). This put bisu behind, and mind just rode it right to the very end. I wasn't ever convinced that 8 carriers were going to save the game for him. Minds macro was too strong. And once his carriers were forced back by the wraiths, mind was safe to raid expos and his nat - cutting bisu's macro. Mind's choice of wraith was brilliant - confining Bisu's carriers to the bottom right expo, allow his forces (on the other side of the map) to raid bisu's base and subsequently gain a dominant macro advantage and as mind said - 'it all went according to plan'.
Although we haven't seen much of mind, he is playing smart and playing smooth. Despite not seeing his lategame i have every confidence that he was the better player between the two at that day - and that bisu did give it his all. His appearance of playing worse is simply due to him being puit off, and reading mind wrong in game 4 allowing mind a macro advantage. Game 3 was just a better logical choice by Mind, and game 2 was bisu showing us his brilliance.
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United States7166 Posts
NEVER GIVE UP
NEVER SURRENDER
BISU WILL COME BACK HUNGRY WITH VENGEANCE
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On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2007 08:36 NonY[rC] wrote:
Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them. I may not be one of tl's 'best analysts' but the series to me was pretty convincingly won by mind Set 1 showed minds use of vultures to the fullest extent. Mind gained a large amount of knowledge from his vultures (as he stated in his interview which many ridiculed). Firstly, he went vult -> tank and with the first vulture he got it into Bisu's main (avoiding goons). Thus learning of bisu's tech and what not, as (imo) scouting well is the definitive factor between first and second at this high level (feel free to debate me). Mind gained a slight advantage here simply because of that one vulture. Later, when Bisu was reaver dropping mind, he sent a squad of vulture up the ramp and saw bisu's third. And subsequently capitalised on it. His barracks was also nicely placed to find any island attempts at 10 - which put bisu off a bit. I don't think bisu played any worse than he usually does during this set, and i think it was more mind putting bisu out his comfort zone than bisu having a bad day. Players play alot worse when they are in unfamiliar situations, although bisu is a pvt god, i don't think he expected the gameplan adopted by mind (as seen in the late legs - not seen at top level without reason). Remember, pros practiced these builds for days on end - nothing is accidental build-wise.
Bisu nearly always makes his 3rd nexus pretty early in the game, so it's nothing out of the ordinary. Not taking the island expansion was definitely a poor choice, while Mind showed excellent timing with the attack at exactly the right time. However, Mind playing flawlessly still doesn't take away the fact that Bisu did make uncharacteristically large micro mistakes that cost him the game (zlot clumps dying to mines). Otherwise, the game would've continued on with both players about even IMO.
On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote:
Set 3 i felt bisu's build to be off, probably because he was expected fd. I felt that his his choice of robo before templar was incorrect. Mind used a build which (imo) is strong on python and (generally) easily crushes the typical protoss builds of fast robo. I mean, how often do you actually see 14nex on this map anyway? Bisu played countering FD, Mind played countering the typical protoss setup. Full props to mind for choosing the better build on the day.
Regardless of the build, if you watch closely Bisu was THIS close to fending off Mind's push and capturing a huge advantage, except for that one stray misclick onto a mine (7:45) that splashed 4 units. This cost Bisu his army and then lost him about 10+ probes and leading to a downward spiral that pushed him into a state of desperation. Further mistakes were probably due to him knowing that it was an all-or-nothing after taking such heavy economic losses, and I think this mindset partially carried on into the 4th game.
I am sure that if that misclick hadn't happened, everyone right now would be praising Bisu for his awesome zealot scout denying, push breaking skill and BO choice, and his momentum probably would've carried over to the game on Loki.
On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote:
Set 4 Bisu read mind wrong - not necessarily surprising either. Xellos went mnm agianst him on this map, and since he was denied scouting with a wall - late fac tech (to bisu's scout) and many rines. Going forge first wasn't a bad idea to counter the mnm's that never actually came (fast cc ftw). This put bisu behind, and mind just rode it right to the very end. I wasn't ever convinced that 8 carriers were going to save the game for him. Minds macro was too strong. And once his carriers were forced back by the wraiths, mind was safe to raid expos and his nat - cutting bisu's macro. Mind's choice of wraith was brilliant - confining Bisu's carriers to the bottom right expo, allow his forces (on the other side of the map) to raid bisu's base and subsequently gain a dominant macro advantage and as mind said - 'it all went according to plan'.
Agreed. Mind showed brilliant play here + awful decision making by Bisu.
Overall, Mind played very solidly with almost no major errors at all in games 1,3 and 4. I don't think anyone's denying that he didn't win the series convincingly, but it's just that the Bisu we usually know and love also has close to perfect decision making combined w/insane macro and micro. Bisu clearly didn't show his top form in this set unfortunately, and thus Mind fully deserved his win.
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4492 Posts
On November 19 2007 08:36 NonY[rC] wrote:
Technically anyone giving an opinion on a match can be called an analyst, but I deem the people with the most evidence and the best arguments as the best analysts. I haven't seen a good argument from anyone saying that Bisu played his best but Mind played better. The good arguments have been saying that Bisu had a bad day and Mind didn't demonstrate any ability that other top Terrans don't already possess. And aside from the good arguments, I've seen knowledgable posters write 1 liners that are in line with the same opinion.
Nobody has come close to convincing me that Mind would have won that Bo5 more often than Bisu if it were run 100 times. I don't know how the events in game 1 and game 3 could be twisted to support that claim. At best, someone could make an argument based on Bisu's history that the finals were an example of a trend from Bisu that we've been seeing build for a while now. However that's absolutely not the case as Bisu has shown consistently solid play when the pressure is on.
In any case, Mynock, you're calling the validity of my use of 'best analysts' into question. So if you'd like to support that there have been better analyses posted by better analysts whose conclusions are contrary to my own, go ahead. Perhaps I've just overlooked them.
Huh? Like I said, I never knew who those top analyzers were, I never read anything you wrote about the issue, and I barely even know who you are (j/k, but still, that was not the point of my post) :/ Nevertheless, I'm sure that analysis was good or something.
HB says: "I wouldn't take Mynock too seriously, he's just as much a Terran fanboy as he claims others are Protoss fanboys."
That's absolutely true. Except the others don't acknowledge where they stand often enough.
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4492 Posts
On November 19 2007 08:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2007 07:03 Mynock wrote:On November 19 2007 05:38 NonY[rC] wrote:On November 19 2007 05:27 SigrUn wrote:On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote:
I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up. Lol? Care to explain? If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here. Haha. Not sure who those "best analysts" are, but they obviously don't like Mind all that much  Or just Protoss users? I'm a Terran player who has a lot of respect for Mind and his MSL run, and I still recognize the points at which fairly amateurish mistakes cost Bisu all three of the games he lost. It's entirely reasonable to come to this conclusion without bias, the games speak for themselves. People saying that Bisu made mistakes he is expected not to make doesn't have to mean that the poster thinks Mind is undeserving or a bad player.
Oh, I agree with you on those points, except I don't agree that Mind could not have won otherwise (but you didn't make that claim AFAIK). Mind's play was just way too stable for Bisu. Except for the game 2 run, NO harrassment of Bisu made any effect. The games might have lasted longer, but Bisu just didn't play his own game. Because he couldn't. Why make assumptions about those "100 games" stuff at all? It's absolutely unsound IMHO.
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Bisu isn't exactly a PvT god. Why is everyone so shocked...
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Braavos36390 Posts
On November 19 2007 15:35 Mynock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2007 08:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On November 19 2007 07:03 Mynock wrote:On November 19 2007 05:38 NonY[rC] wrote:On November 19 2007 05:27 SigrUn wrote:On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote:
I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up. Lol? Care to explain? If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here. Haha. Not sure who those "best analysts" are, but they obviously don't like Mind all that much Or just Protoss users? I'm a Terran player who has a lot of respect for Mind and his MSL run, and I still recognize the points at which fairly amateurish mistakes cost Bisu all three of the games he lost. It's entirely reasonable to come to this conclusion without bias, the games speak for themselves. People saying that Bisu made mistakes he is expected not to make doesn't have to mean that the poster thinks Mind is undeserving or a bad player. Oh, I agree with you on those points, except I don't agree that Mind could not have won otherwise (but you didn't make that claim AFAIK). Mind's play was just way too stable for Bisu. Except for the game 2 run, NO harrassment of Bisu made any effect. The games might have lasted longer, but Bisu just didn't play his own game. Because he couldn't. Why make assumptions about those "100 games" stuff at all? It's absolutely unsound IMHO.
Bisu generally shows very good push break micro and decision making, in games 1 and 3 it just wasn't there. He'd choose bad times to attack, or lose large groups of zealots to mines, etc.
Thus Bisu not playing his own game "because he couldn't" is just wrong. Mind didn't lay mines better than Hwasin did, or somehow force Bisu to attack at a bad moment better than Hwasin did. Most of the mistakes Bisu made in those two games were entirely unforced by Mind.
Again, I'm not taking credit away from Mind, because he played strong when it mattered and Bisu did not. Mind is the deserving MSL champion as much as I hate to say that.
But you claiming that Mind somehow forced these mistakes when they were clearly entirely Bisu's own choice and error in execution is simply inaccurate. You don't have to be a Protoss fanboy to see that.
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Because he's clutch when it counts, which he wasn't this time.
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what a guy. he is the rule
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lol, Bisu is cute.
Young kids are so gosu at this game. wtfz ~_~
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On November 19 2007 16:51 Ace wrote:
Bisu isn't exactly a PvT god. Why is everyone so shocked...
he's the best in that mu right now...
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Yes Bisu made some mistakes (as well as Mind in game 2 - had he started his turrets earlier, or made one also near his cc the result could be 3-0). But those mistakes are just the tip of the iceberg.
I see Mind himself as the main reason of Bisu making mistakes. Like Savior acting "strange" against Bisu every time making unusual mistakes, Mind won the nerve battle which is the most important. Being aggressive against Bisu? Who would dare?? But Mind didnt play "go take me champ, I m yours" style like kwanro did and it frightened bisu. Like savior was frightened of someone who was not trembling at his 80% zvp.
Xellos had all the abilities to win Bisu, as well as hwasin. But xelos was just sitting not moving forward after bisu sacrificed all his units, waiting for arbiter to recall to his base and kick the shit out of him.
I am not saying the units and micro/macro are not important, but they are managed by real people according to their inner state.
Assuming that players would've played 100 times is just nonsense. It would most likely lead to
a) players adapting to eachanother style and playing comfortably anyone against anyone
b) quite different *random* dominating players (like mania owning at that 256 tourney)
c) total death the Game which is perfect and extremely attractive as is - one b05 in front of camers and you dont have the 2nd chance.
d) unpredictable results
The example of a such "100 games" play can be seen in a stupid drama of latest tiebrakerks. Players fighting again and again and with no winner until someone dies from fatigue. I guess noone would be interested in even savior - bisu match after their 100 one after another matches playing laid-back sleepy games.
Besides, The "Analytics" can pretend they know the future but life often flows differently. Look at the great analytics threads before the Mind - Savior match. Look at the deep predictions before Savior - PJ match. So this is the game where everything is possible.
PS I like bisu and whoever else showing art. An important part of art is that there is only one chance and one MSL 3 and this time it was Mind's show.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 19 2007 14:42 teamsolid wrote:I may not be one of tl's 'best analysts' but the series to me was pretty convincingly won by mind
Set 1 showed minds use of vultures to the fullest extent. Mind gained a large amount of knowledge from his vultures (as he stated in his interview which many ridiculed). Firstly, he went vult -> tank and with the first vulture he got it into Bisu's main (avoiding goons). Thus learning of bisu's tech and what not, as (imo) scouting well is the definitive factor between first and second at this high level (feel free to debate me). Mind gained a slight advantage here simply because of that one vulture. Later, when Bisu was reaver dropping mind, he sent a squad of vulture up the ramp and saw bisu's third. And subsequently capitalised on it. His barracks was also nicely placed to find any island attempts at 10 - which put bisu off a bit. I don't think bisu played any worse than he usually does during this set, and i think it was more mind putting bisu out his comfort zone than bisu having a bad day. Players play alot worse when they are in unfamiliar situations, although bisu is a pvt god, i don't think he expected the gameplan adopted by mind (as seen in the late legs - not seen at top level without reason). Remember, pros practiced these builds for days on end - nothing is accidental build-wise.
Bisu nearly always makes his 3rd nexus pretty early in the game, so it's nothing out of the ordinary. Not taking the island expansion was definitely a poor choice, while Mind showed excellent timing with the attack at exactly the right time. However, Mind playing flawlessly still doesn't take away the fact that Bisu did make uncharacteristically large micro mistakes that cost him the game (zlot clumps dying to mines). Otherwise, the game would've continued on with both players about even IMO.
[/quote]Even better for mind who just rode out Bisu's pattern. Although, he did scout it - but he may have been looking to confirm the pattern.. i dont know - either way its full credit to mind.
Those micro mistakes are grossly exaggerated - yes they were bad but it really was just that one instance. IMO the reaver drop doing no damage what so ever was more pivotal to the outcome of the game than the micro mistake. (IIRC) By that stage bisu had lost alot defending the 3rd (he may have lost it... can't remember) and mind was taking his 3rd - bisu was already behind largely in macro and thus even if he didnt lose those zealots, and DID break the line he still would have been behind.
Show nested quote +On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote:
Set 3 i felt bisu's build to be off, probably because he was expected fd. I felt that his his choice of robo before templar was incorrect. Mind used a build which (imo) is strong on python and (generally) easily crushes the typical protoss builds of fast robo. I mean, how often do you actually see 14nex on this map anyway? Bisu played countering FD, Mind played countering the typical protoss setup. Full props to mind for choosing the better build on the day.
Regardless of the build, if you watch closely Bisu was THIS close to fending off Mind's push and capturing a huge advantage, except for that one stray misclick onto a mine (7:45) that splashed 4 units. This cost Bisu his army and then lost him about 10+ probes and leading to a downward spiral that pushed him into a state of desperation. Further mistakes were probably due to him knowing that it was an all-or-nothing after taking such heavy economic losses, and I think this mindset partially carried on into the 4th game. I am sure that if that misclick hadn't happened, everyone right now would be praising Bisu for his awesome zealot scout denying, push breaking skill and BO choice, and his momentum probably would've carried over to the game on Loki.
I think i know which mine you're talking about, yes bisu showed some amazing micro there - but realistically it was a tall order for him to possibly hold that. Even if that 'mistake' hadnt happen (which are damn hard to avoid if you've ever played protoss - stupid goons) mind had reinforcements on the way and wouldve finished bisu off - maybe not at that moment, but still rather soon.
Show nested quote +On November 19 2007 14:05 Plexa wrote:
Set 4 Bisu read mind wrong - not necessarily surprising either. Xellos went mnm agianst him on this map, and since he was denied scouting with a wall - late fac tech (to bisu's scout) and many rines. Going forge first wasn't a bad idea to counter the mnm's that never actually came (fast cc ftw). This put bisu behind, and mind just rode it right to the very end. I wasn't ever convinced that 8 carriers were going to save the game for him. Minds macro was too strong. And once his carriers were forced back by the wraiths, mind was safe to raid expos and his nat - cutting bisu's macro. Mind's choice of wraith was brilliant - confining Bisu's carriers to the bottom right expo, allow his forces (on the other side of the map) to raid bisu's base and subsequently gain a dominant macro advantage and as mind said - 'it all went according to plan'.
Agreed. Mind showed brilliant play here + awful decision making by Bisu. Overall, Mind played very solidly with almost no major errors at all in games 1,3 and 4. I don't think anyone's denying that he didn't win the series convincingly, but it's just that the Bisu we usually know and love also has close to perfect decision making combined w/insane macro and micro. Bisu clearly didn't show his top form in this set unfortunately, and thus Mind fully deserved his win.
there was a time where most players would say that about savior, oov, nada
And also, careful not to confuse bisu's pvz (which is unparalleled) to his other matchups where he is touchable. And i think what mind showed here is that yes, bisu, your god and savior, isn't as godly as you'd like to think. I cannot single out (m)any errors on minds part (and those that i can i can cite bisu equivalences). But on the whole, mind's mindset and strategy throughout the bo5 showed bisu-esque like planning. Because arguably, bisu is the best (or one of) simulataneous match players out there. Simply because of the effort the coaching staff at MBC place on it (shows in all other MBC greats as well). Mind matched bisu toe for toe in this area - which many players usually dont (i think savior had - but he got pwned too early). Thus he took away bisus 'hack' so to speak and brought it back to a game of timing/execution. Bisu lacked the execution (right decisions at the right time) to match mind and lost it. The 'micro' analysis reveals that bisu probably made more micro mistakes - but because he couldn't compensate for this with his over game sense and plan (as mind equaled it) he couldn't take the win.
Mind won the series, bisu did not lose it.
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On November 19 2007 05:38 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2007 05:27 SigrUn wrote:On November 19 2007 05:16 Thegreatbeyond wrote:
I'm sorry, but this was so different from Gom 1 TV MSL, you guys just never get it do you? Oh and ambitious, your not a Bisu fan at all, your just not understanding or just using whatver reasoning you have to satisfy your Bisu hate, and your Mind dick sucking urges, seriously shut up. Lol? Care to explain? If you ran Gom 1 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would win an overwhelming majority of them. If you ran Gom 3 TV MSL finals 100 times, Bisu would likely win a majority of them. That is the opinion of TL.net's best analysts. The evidence is gathered by looking at how the games were won and what the game turning events were. If you can't understand this, then you should make yourself content with only reading tl.net and not posting here.
Eh. Doesn't matter.
Even if Bisu has the best statistics, it doesn't matter if he loses at the time when it matters most. Just like KTF's Proleague record used to be insane, they still never achieved the championship win.
Bisu lost to Mind even when we expected otherwise. Same with iloveOOv. Same with Savior.
Mind has just had an outstanding MSL run. It's not so different from GomTV MSL 1, because Savior was the overwhelming favorite to win. Just like the expected champion was upset, Bisu was upset this season.
Savior, with his 80% ZvP rating back in the day, lost to Hoony, a 10% PvZer. Whatever. Sometimes, people just lose. What matters is winning on the right day. In the end, if you lose... having a large probability of winning means nothing at all. Winning is key, despite your statistics.
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Bisu is so sweet..
that's why fangirls dig him..
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Great to see bisu is still keeping positive.
GoGo Bisu.Shield!!!! Iz still cheering!
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4492 Posts
HB, you're reading too much into what I said. I merely pointed out what Nony mentioned about those 100 games, which is kinda stupid. Sure, Bisu made mistakes, I have noticed them quite clearly when watching the games, as they were obvious.
However. You're saying they were absolutely unforced. Well, I say they were unprovoked by Mind's passivity. As I said, Bisu couldn't play his own game against Mind, so he was desperate. He felt that unless he cripples Mind somehow, somewhere, he's doomed. That made him make rushed decisions, as he was feeling the pressure (especially as a defending champ, with everything to lose).
But I'm not really interested in arguing about all this. Again, I merely pointed out what Nony said about thos 100 games and how those views are supported by some top analysts whom he didn't even name. As I haven't happen to come across any such 100 games connections anywhere else, I made that mocking post. My point is - on that day, in those games, Mind was BETTER than Bisu, no matter how you look at it. That stuff about 100 games is absolutely unfounded, and has no ground in an analysis o any sort, hence why I thought it's bollox.
If you agree that under those conditions it was merely luck that helped Mind, and that had they played more games under those very same conditions, on that same day, for that same trophy etc, etc and Bisu would have won - well, that's you opinion, and I can only say I disagree with that wholeheartedly.
If however that's not what you're saying, I don't even know what we're arguing about now...
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Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
On November 19 2007 05:30 ambit!ous1 wrote:
why was my title changed from " Dont worry " from Bisu to
"[Spoiler]"Dont worry" from MSL 2nd place???
i understand the [Spoiler] part but instead of " from Bisu " admin changed to
MSL 2nd place <----- this is really depressing..... oh well just wanted to point that out.
That would've been me.
I couldn't put [Spoiler] and leave ' "Don't worry" from Bisu ', that would've been kinda obvious. And I couldn't leave it without a spoiler... that was the best I could come up with. I can give it another day then change it back for you.
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On November 19 2007 21:53 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2007 05:30 ambit!ous1 wrote:
why was my title changed from " Dont worry " from Bisu to
"[Spoiler]"Dont worry" from MSL 2nd place???
i understand the [Spoiler] part but instead of " from Bisu " admin changed to
MSL 2nd place <----- this is really depressing..... oh well just wanted to point that out. That would've been me. I couldn't put [Spoiler] and leave ' "Don't worry" from Bisu ', that would've been kinda obvious. And I couldn't leave it without a spoiler... that was the best I could come up with. I can give it another day then change it back for you.
ahhhh no big deal. thanks EvilT.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On November 19 2007 20:50 Mynock wrote:
...
However. You're saying they were absolutely unforced. Well, I say they were unprovoked by Mind's passivity. As I said, Bisu couldn't play his own game against Mind, so he was desperate. He felt that unless he cripples Mind somehow, somewhere, he's doomed. That made him make rushed decisions, as he was feeling the pressure (especially as a defending champ, with everything to lose).
...
I have already said I agree that Mind was better and deserves the trophy. I don't know why you are arguing a point that I have already stated. I edited out all your redundant arguing.
But what you say in the above quote is simply inaccurate. I'm attributing Bisu's mistakes (that legitimately lost him the final) to his own actions, and you're saying that it's "Mind's passivity" as if Mind somehow is better at being passive than Hwasin or Xellos. He did not lay mines in a special way or leave his tanks sieged in a special way that was better than how Hwasin or Xellos did. The only difference was Bisu's decision making and execution, not some magical "passivity superiority" from Mind. Everything else that you say about Bisu feeling desperate and pressured is purely conjecture and a product of you imposing your pro-Terran bias into your opinions.
I don't know what else to say other than that I disagree with you. Not much more to add, each side has already made their points and this discussion has already become stale.
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EPT
