IMHO there's no good reason for it not to be used in TvZ. I see vessels being picked off left and right after getting plagued, or needing to be brought back to be repaired.
The APM argument makes zero sense because it takes more APM to bring your damaged vessels back to be repaired, whereas there are so many benefits to getting restoration (You could bait plagues out so the M&M army doesn't get plagued, you could use restoration on plagued BCs, etc)
Thoughts? Has anyone asked a progamer about why they don't research it?
They do research it, but mostly for battlecruisers. When you have vessel with energy you are trying to use it and irradiate units. Chances to lose vessel with 1 or full hp are pretty much the same. So you are not only don’t see restoration on vessel, but repair is rare too. If u see repair it means terran has a lot of vessels and will send only ones that doesn’t have energy. When plagued vessel losing hp very fast, even if you cure it 1 sec after plague it will still die to one scourge.
On September 20 2023 09:05 iFU.spx wrote: They do research it, but mostly for battlecruisers. When you have vessel with energy you are trying to use it and irradiate units. Chances to lose vessel with 1 or full hp are pretty much the same.So you are not only don’t see restoration on vessel, but repair is rare too. If u see repair it means terran has a lot of vessels and will send only ones that doesn’t have energy. When plagued vessel losing hp very fast, even if you cure it 1 sec after plague it will still die to one scourge.
This is literally completely false, the exact opposite is true. Vessels with 1 HP are in extreme danger, and with full HP they survive much longer. If terran players have a good opportunity to restore their plagued vessels, they typically do it as quickly as possible. Repair is also commonly used when several vessels have 1 HP.
there's some merit to getting restore if you're up against hydra lurker defiler I guess because then 64 hp is very different from 1, and you can also avoid the single muta killing 3 vessels kind of thing. But vs scourge it hardly matters.
I do actually think terrans should start getting restore, but not really against plague. Rather, they should get it to remove parasite after zerg parasites, but then zergs don't make queens so they don't have to.
Agreed, also Zerg should always keep 1-3 Mutalisks alive when they've already made them instead of throwing them all as soon as Defiler/Lurker tech hits just because ketchup and 1 hp vessels.
Restoration you have to cast somewhat quickly after the plague hit for it to be effective and after plague it may be more important to pull back your units. Plus you need to actually have the energy and be willing to spend it. Repair after plague you can do whenever, safe at home base. Also I think you can shift click the vessels with a bunch of SCVs (including sending them back to mining) instead of having to clone medics so I wouldn't say the APM cost is the same. Edit: though in order for the repair to be effective, you have to remove them from control groups too.
On September 20 2023 20:46 Magic Powers wrote: If terran players have a good opportunity to restore their plagued vessels, they typically do it as quickly as possible. Repair is also commonly used when several vessels have 1 HP.
I guess this depends on our interpretation of "commonly", but watching ASL my impression is that terrans are incredibly spotty with their vessel repair, if they do it at all. Literally you see players have only three vessels with 1 hp each and not deem it prudent to repair them (or remove them from the control group at the frontline). The only reason it works out, i.e. those vessels still survive a long time, imho seems to be that a) Zergs are similarly spotty with picking off plagued vessels with hydra/muta and b) terrans are very good at keeping vessels close to their bio balls and therefore secure (or again zergs are bad at punishing lackluster execution in this area).
Z: Defiler - always, single most important spellcaster in the game Z: Queen - rare but effective (see recent SoulKey Vs JYJ series)
T: Vessel - sometimes (but always in TvZ) T: Vulture - do mines count? I'll say yes, but they're on par with Reaver shots T: Ghost - lol T: Medic - lol
[I won't count cloaking, though I'll note that Lurker Burrow and DT Cloak don't need to be researched, yet Ghost & Wraith calling do]
Yes, we should change that final 'lol' into an asset.
If you're in range of getting plagued, you're likely also about to also get engaged, so typically you'd be using your medics and APM for other things, so by the time you catch a breather so much damage will have already been done it's of questionable value.
I think blind should have the same cost and cast radius as parasite.
Maybe as a poor man's anti Arb EMP? Or to help shut down shuttle play? (Awfully late and expensive to get in time for reaver drops tho.)
Right now it's pretty useless. If you can scan to spot observers, you'd might as well just kill them, not disable them.
If your TvT opponent has Vessels you're probably better off trying to lockdown them then blind them. (And Restoration > Lockdown lol.)
And if overlords are within range of your bio, just kill them, why wait. If you're trying to sneak around with wraiths, they'd kill the ovies anyway.
So overall Blind is even more useless than Restoration. You're legit better off going for Ghosts than for Blind. I wish we'd arrive at this meta with tactical nukes everywhere, but I told them, Terran's spellcaster game is underdeveloped.
If you're playing TvT and you had to research restoration for medics because your science vessels keep getting locked down I would submit something has gone seriously wrong many steps back.
optical flare would work really well with that nuke transition light and royal have been playing around with a month ago. if you research it the same time you build nukes, then optical flare nearby overlords, the nuke is pretty much guaranteed because a ghost nuking will be out of range of spore's detection by default
On September 24 2023 07:46 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: optical flare would work really well with that nuke transition light and royal have been playing around with a month ago. if you research it the same time you build nukes, then optical flare nearby overlords, the nuke is pretty much guaranteed because a ghost nuking will be out of range of spore's detection by default
Zerg can also detect with plague or ensnare but that's a hassle and the AOE is much smaller than an overlord's vision.
On September 20 2023 09:05 iFU.spx wrote: They do research it, but mostly for battlecruisers. When you have vessel with energy you are trying to use it and irradiate units. Chances to lose vessel with 1 or full hp are pretty much the same. So you are not only don’t see restoration on vessel, but repair is rare too. If u see repair it means terran has a lot of vessels and will send only ones that doesn’t have energy. When plagued vessel losing hp very fast, even if you cure it 1 sec after plague it will still die to one scourge.
I don't think that's true.
Ex.
Hiya loses like 5 plagued vessels from a group of mutas
On September 20 2023 08:48 ruhtraeel wrote: Made a post on Reddit about this too:
IMHO there's no good reason for it not to be used in TvZ. I see vessels being picked off left and right after getting plagued, or needing to be brought back to be repaired.
The APM argument makes zero sense because it takes more APM to bring your damaged vessels back to be repaired, whereas there are so many benefits to getting restoration (You could bait plagues out so the M&M army doesn't get plagued, you could use restoration on plagued BCs, etc)
Thoughts? Has anyone asked a progamer about why they don't research it?
Yes and zergs should make queens and protosses should use dark archons and arbriters more in PvZ.
Regardless one way or another they should retain their vessel count better, but to what end? Are they going to micro 30 vessels? Is the gas going to be dumped into BCs that won't be able to be hit by restore that often because they're on the outskirts of the map?
Fully agree though that losing plagued vessels to one muta is foolish, restore or repair doesn't matter to me.
On September 20 2023 08:48 ruhtraeel wrote: Made a post on Reddit about this too:
IMHO there's no good reason for it not to be used in TvZ. I see vessels being picked off left and right after getting plagued, or needing to be brought back to be repaired.
The APM argument makes zero sense because it takes more APM to bring your damaged vessels back to be repaired, whereas there are so many benefits to getting restoration (You could bait plagues out so the M&M army doesn't get plagued, you could use restoration on plagued BCs, etc)
Thoughts? Has anyone asked a progamer about why they don't research it?
Yes and zergs should make queens and protosses should use dark archons and arbriters more in PvZ.
Regardless one way or another they should retain their vessel count better, but to what end? Are they going to micro 30 vessels? Is the gas going to be dumped into BCs that won't be able to be hit by restore that often because they're on the outskirts of the map?
Fully agree though that losing plagued vessels to one muta is foolish, restore or repair doesn't matter to me.
To the end of having more vessels. BCs can be hit by restore. All you need to do is also have a dropship to ferry a medic around with the BCs. Bam. Problem solved.
On September 20 2023 08:48 ruhtraeel wrote: Made a post on Reddit about this too:
IMHO there's no good reason for it not to be used in TvZ. I see vessels being picked off left and right after getting plagued, or needing to be brought back to be repaired.
The APM argument makes zero sense because it takes more APM to bring your damaged vessels back to be repaired, whereas there are so many benefits to getting restoration (You could bait plagues out so the M&M army doesn't get plagued, you could use restoration on plagued BCs, etc)
Thoughts? Has anyone asked a progamer about why they don't research it?
Yes and zergs should make queens and protosses should use dark archons and arbriters more in PvZ.
Regardless one way or another they should retain their vessel count better, but to what end? Are they going to micro 30 vessels? Is the gas going to be dumped into BCs that won't be able to be hit by restore that often because they're on the outskirts of the map?
Fully agree though that losing plagued vessels to one muta is foolish, restore or repair doesn't matter to me.
To the end of having more vessels. BCs can be hit by restore. All you need to do is also have a dropship to ferry a medic around with the BCs. Bam. Problem solved.
BCs typically flying over areas you can't drop on or far enough into a main to force a reaction. Not only is your drop ship probably not able to unload the medic in a viable area it might not even make it to that point, not to mention the micro involved. I'm sure in some select scenarios a medic could be at one of the neutral expansions near enough to a natural expansion that it might work, but it probably is a bit too much to ask. Considering pros don't even use it when it would normally be quite easy to do on vessels it is a stretch to think all the extra steps involved with doing it for BCs is easily done.
And while I fully agree it should be used I don't think it gets you as far as OP thinks it does.
EPT
