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Rise of a Nazgul

Forum Index > BW General
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Plyff
Profile Joined March 2021
United States143 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-21 18:28:40
July 20 2021 20:48 GMT
#1




Rise of a Nazgul







“My matches!?” Victor “Nazgul” Goossens asks, shocked when I tell him that I’ve been watching some of his old StarCraft: Brood War games.



It seems like it shouldn’t be surprising because according to his own words, he was one of the best players in Europe and maybe the world for parts of 2002 and 2003. “In Brood War, there’s like a good 1 or 2 years where I am—in my opinion—arguably the best player outside of Korea.”



Nazgul notes this without boasting. As with most of the praise Nazgul gives himself, he’s even quick to add some caveats. “Does not mean the best Western player. I think you could argue when Elky [a legendary top French player] lived in Korea he was better [than] when I didn’t live in Korea, for example.”



The caveats aren’t there to bring himself down as much to keep the record straight. This is because, after about two full decades, the record is hard to keep at all—let alone keep straight. Nazgul has good reason to be surprised because In the beginning when Brood War was molding itself into the esport to be, many of the recording methods we now take for granted were still in the making and many of Brood War’s oldest matches never made it to the archive. (Plus, the matches that did survive tended to come from Korea, not from the West.)



“I still remember when replays came out,” he recounts. “You have no VOD, you have no stream, you have no replays. The only way you could ever see another person play StarCraft was literally join their game as an observer and watch. It was the only way! Then replays came out and it was mind blowing.”



“Different time,” says Nazgul.



Different time [2000-2002]



To put the time in full context, replays came out on patch 1.08, on May 20th, 2001—a full three years after the game’s release on March 31st 1998. StarCraft had a pretty large audience but like traditional sports, the matches needed to be recorded the old fashioned way. In South Korea, StarCraft basically was a traditional sport, being televised and broadcast to young audiences there.







The issue was, beyond those top Korean competitors and the region as a whole, the recording process was less like a traditional sport and more akin to early fighting games, arcade scenes. You may find some big moments here and there but many details and videos are lost to time.



Nowadays, finding pre-2004 Brood War matches outside of Korean leagues range from tough to impossible, even for players at the top, like Nazgul.






(This replay cast of 5 ladder matches between Nazgul and Boxer is one of the best remaining Nazgul VODS out there. With casting from TL.net regular/writer BisuDagger, it’s also one of the only ones with English commentary.)



In some ways, this makes sense because Korea was simply so far ahead of the rest of the world. It’s something you can read straight from the language of the game. If you were from anywhere but Korea, you were just foreign. The international players that could actually compete with Korean professionals were so few and far between that you could lump them into one category. Foreign scenes being so behind, they weren’t nearly as likely to be recorded, documented, and saved for literally two decades later.



When Nazgul was coming up in the early 2000’s, there was basically no video sharing either. So the West isn’t even seeing the top level of Brood War, happening right then on Korean television.



Enter TL.net.



“When the website opened up, stream doesn’t exist, VOD does not exist, right? So there’s these professionals playing on Korean television and the West has absolutely no way of following StarCraft as a professional sport,” Nazgul says.



“So we had predominantly Korean American writers who at that point in their life lived in Korea, watching matches on TV just writing down battle reports on what was happening. Then their writing was published on TL.net and that was basically the core of how it all started and people loved reading up on it and what was going on.”



“If you told someone now, they’d be like, ‘wait, I can’t sit still and read that long.’ But back then it wasn’t even a consideration. If you literally don’t have the other things, and it’s the only thing, there’s just so much appreciation for it. [...] We basically grew up with written word being the core of Team Liquid.”



It feels bizarre to imagine given how visual esports has become. But battle reports were vital for early Brood War, especially since everything being on Korean TV meant Brood War could be hard to read, simultaneously centralized in a small, distant culture and so decentralized across different shows and programs within that culture.



A different time indeed. A time where Nazgul led the competition outside of Korea, but because this competition was so behind Korea, competing wasn’t the main component of his legacy. What was even more important was how he helped bridge the vast information gap between the two.



All or nothing



“A lot of Team Liquid’s heritage is based on being a community website and not a team, right? For the community website it was definitely like feeling people were just not getting what they deserved when it comes to coverage of professional Brood War—something magical to me that was not being shared with the Western community.”



“I mean there were some sites that were trying but were absolute total trash. So I just felt like I can do this better. I know a few friends that can help—some are writers, some are designers, some are coders.”



Core to Nazgul’s motivation is an all-or-nothing feeling. Behind the things he pursues most eagerly, there’s a driving sense that he can reach the highest level if he’s at his best. The counter to that: if he can’t be his best, can’t execute at the highest level, that drive falters. Tough as the mentality sounds, it’s a big part of what pushed Nazgul forward and - later down the line - a part of what would push him out of the game.






(Nazgul talks more about the mindset and quitting StarCraft cold turkey in his TILTS interview above)



“I don’t really celebrate wins, or doing well. I just get miserable over losing; I get miserable over mistakes. That itself is not a super happy part of my personality, but it is my personality. I do embrace it, I do accept it as a reason for why I have done certain things I’m proud of.”



“I’m very, very motivated by the negative. By losing, making mistakes, and then improving off of it.” The mentality of improving the negative was crucial in those earliest days of esports where Nazgul tells me that being on a team only really earned him a few hundred euros a month. Those other motivators aren’t there yet - just love for the game and hate for losing at it.



In those early days Nazgul didn’t even have a sense of being a professional, only a sense of steady progression.



“Honestly, I don’t really know that I tried to class[ify] it that way until much later in my life - thinking back on it. It’s not really like an ‘oh,lightbulb goes on’ moment for me. I mean, none of my career really has been. It’s always just been gradual, just wake up another day trying to be a little better than the day before.”



Equally core to Nazgul is a down-to-earth, simplistic approach to things. Doing things a day at a time and keeping an eye on the process. It’s natural for him to see the levels to StarCraft and to work hard to climb up them - starting with the nascent Dutch scene.



“You work yourself up through the space. First when you log in, you’re in like the Dutch StarCraft channel. I remember being in these Dutch channels coming up and there’d be these legendary names in the Netherlands. Like it’s all of these levels.”



“There would be this group called the Clowns and they were the best in the Netherlands and at some point you think you’re ready to challenge them. You get introduced through a friend, you take a match off of them, and they’re like, ‘holy shit this guy’s good, this guy’s worthwhile practice, I’m gonna play more.’”



“You go through an international level and the same thing happens, right? You get introduced through a friend and you win there. You’re just constantly tracking your own practice partners with regards to, ‘I’m being invited to better and better games.’ Eventually you’re playing with the best people on the continent.”



The odd road to Korea [2002-2003]



Nazgul tells me there were plenty of tournaments and show matches in Europe, some even with small prize pools, but it’s genuinely difficult to track how Nazgul did in the Netherlands and then in Europe. It took me around 200 tabs and a lot of digging to accept that there just wasn’t going to be much record of these tournaments. (Aside from the World Cyber Games, but that’ll come later.)



However, there were other ways to know that Nazgul was rising up the ranks. Namely, his sponsors.



Nazgul’s first ever sponsor was simply a Dutch organization with an interest in the scene and a desire to get their name out. His second sponsor was pG (proGaming), a German organization which was very much a forerunner to the esports teams of the now. From what I can tell, they even hosted tournaments and held videos on their site.



In Nazgul’s words, pG was near to one of the biggest sponsors you could get in Europe at the time.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Was pG the big name and the main force of European esports at that time?



“Yeah. Yeah, I often wonder what happened to the folks that really set that up because they were... I’m not kidding, what I thought was a business opportunity in 2010 and a hobby before that, they thought was a business opportunity in the early 2000’s. I think they had Samsung as a sponsor. [...]



“Back then many, many, many of the top StarCraft players were a part of pG. pG Saft, pG Fisheye… [...] They were definitely trying and I honestly don't know what happened to them.”







pro-Gaming was so ahead of its time that the organization even had content creators on board. Dyo made “highlight movies” that were the montages of the day, but also ways to genuinely determine what happened in a notable match or what certain players were doing well. The montage music of the day is also a blast from the past, being much less electronic and a lot more of a certain early 2000’s brand of Metal (Nightwish, System of a Down, etc).



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The lost archives, and even the lost organizations, meant that the true measure of Nazgul’s skill was the fact that he made it to the international stage - that he got to play the Koreans at all. After all, it was the Korean scene that mattered. International tournaments were where the Koreans played, the top foreigners played, the top 100 played. These were worth really etching into the annals.






(Many of the promotional and broadcast videos of the time scratch a unique nostalgia itch)



The World Cyber Games (WCG) was the major forerunner of international competition and one of very few tournaments where the focus was to get players from the widest spread of nations possible. They held qualifiers in several countries—including the Netherlands—where the top 2 would qualify for a trip to Seoul, South Korea where the main WCG was played.



Nazgul qualified for the main stage with relative ease, earning him his first chance to compete with the best and his first step on the long journey to Korea. At WCG 2001 and 2002, he proved that he was more than just a big fish in a small pond by beating top foreign players like Fisheye and, more impressively, a top Korean player in Gundam.



In these tournaments, he’d outplaced older legends who had led the foreign scene, like Grrrr, sVEN, Maynard and Smuft. These were both foreign players who had done so well as to move to Korea to compete and genuinely challenge the top talent there. If he’d beaten them, then surely he could follow their path.







His performance in 2001 and 2002 put him up as a rising foreign star alongside Elky—who was on-and-off the best non-Korean player from 2001-2004. In turn, that levelled him up enough that these foreign players living in Korea quickly became more than competitors. They became sparring partners and friends who would help Nazgul up to the next level—Korea.



The nexus of esports



“I’ve always been intrigued with regards to why Koreans were so good at Starcraft,” Nazgul echoes a sentiment that most StarCraft fans at the time had, and many fans still have. In Brood War, Korea’s dominance of the esport was always insanely complete.



“They made up, like, 99 out of the top 100 players. That’s how good they were.”



It made sense to be enamored then, much in the same way that a strong subsection of western League fans devoutly watch the LPL and LCK. To be enamored from the mastery of a craft - seeing a thing done the way it’s truly meant to be done.



But at the time it also made sense in a deeper, more cultural way, where Korea had created lines of infrastructure and market penetration that you’d never see in the West. More than just being on TV, StarCraft in Korea had government support and regulation in KGPA and then KeSPA, and top StarCraft players had enough popularity to cultivate fandoms.







However the West reached for what Korea had, they’d only end up with a pale imitation.



Though many people like to highlight cultural differences, the West’s lagging behind wasn’t due to lack of spirit. Nazgul stresses that a great deal of work went into TL.net and it all came pouring in through volunteers who knew there was no pay in sight for this.



Moreso, it was many other strange turns of fortune that propelled Korea forward. Things like a large PC culture built around net cafes (PC bangs), a lack of interest in consoles, and even size. Surely, it’s easier to play online and coordinate offline in one small country than in one large continent.



It was also socio-economic confluences, great lines of aggregate supply moving like mystical force, which propelled Korea forward into this niche. Things like the 1997 Financial Crisis also pushed Korea into supporting burgeoning tech and communication sectors more than they already were and certainly more than the West was. Put the strong investment in with the PC bang industry and Korea was a big step ahead of the West.



For foreign players in the beginning of Brood War, Korea was the pro gaming dream made real. By the time Victor went to Korea in the second half of 2002, the dream had become a surprisingly real path.



“In that moment it was more organic than you would think. It just made sense. What made that one in particular for me was that I knew Elky, as a French player, was already living in Korea, that was really important for me. Smuft, a Canadian, was living in Korea as well.”



“What made it so organic was them just being my practice partners and being like, ‘Oh yeah, you should live in Korea! It’s no problem, it’s fun. Just get yourself an apartment.’ To me, it all felt pretty natural.”







By the time Nazgul reached his peak in Europe, It had become so strangely natural for foreign pros to go to Korea that there were even forum posts about it. TL.net users would hop and either ponder idly or ask openly if the one and only Nazgul would join Elky and company there one day.



Nazgul stresses the fact that by the time he went, Foreign players like Grrrr hadn’t just paved the way, they’d settled down and set up shop.



“Guillaume [Grrrr] was already there two years before I came. I mean, that was mind-blowing with regards to how early he went there, on his own. He completely mastered the language of Korean, he still lives there today as far as I know, and speaks it fluently.”



More than mastering the language, Grrrr would really take the country on as his own home, eventually becoming something of a TV star, settling down, and getting married. By the time that Nazgul arrived in 2003, Grrrr’s StarCraft was already beginning to wind down. Nazgul knows in advance that all the early era Brood War players fall into the same, almost mythic categorization but when Nazgul was in his prime, Grrrr was the old legend.







“I know right now it feels like, ‘Wait, weren't all you guys early in the game?’ No. [...] Guillaume was like a legend who almost, with his ability from years before was still doing okay in the now but more thriving on this natural talent and instinct for the game rather than being completely up to par with the mechanics of that day.”



“Mechanics surpassed me eventually too,” he’s quick to add, “but the same thing with folks from three years before that.”



For a lot of casual fans and observers, this is an important reminder that over the early eras of sport, it’s not as simple as writing all legends off as similarly bad or good. It’s not as simple as watching old Brood War videos and spotting out dirty micro and bad macro. The game was evolving then as it is now, always forcing adaptation and churning through those couldn’t keep up.



If Korea really was the nexus of Brood War, the path to reach it was brutal.



A brutal path [January-February 2003]



For starters that path wasn’t available to all or even most of the world that walked the way of the Brood War pro.



This is not the modern day where even individual NA League players can save up the money to bootcamp in Korea in the offseason. If you were foreign, you had to be great to get to Korea. In most places, there wasn’t the money to be sending over mediocre talent and even the good players could spend years lurching inside qualifiers to make it into one of Korea’s competitive leagues.



StarCraft being so popular only made things harder, the esport booming out well in front of infrastructure, sponsors, and market value. Competition quickly outgrew opportunity. Even competitors in Korea struggled to make a living, as shown by a player strike that pushed for higher pay on television appearances. The response from companies was that the money wasn’t there yet.



Despite all of this, Nazgul made the beginning of his journey look relatively easy.



When Nazgul made it to Korea, on top of pG he’d gotten another even bigger sponsor in AMD, the processor manufacturer and tech company. He was part of what was called the AMD Dream Team (featuring Elky and Grrrr) and had a manager who handled stuff like TV appearances, sponsor work, scheduling, transportation, and so on. They hadn’t quite set up a team house, so to play with the team Nazgul would take a subway to Elky and Grrrr’s apartment.



His first big televised match would be a showmatch on a program called About StarCraft 2003 against JinNam—a Korean Zerg player who had a strong end to 2002. JinNam had even managed a win against Boxer in November 2002 (Boxer was likely the world’s best player and touted as The Emperor of Terran).







JinNam’s results seemed to have fallen a bit since then and he may not have been a top 10 caliber player—but he was strong. Strong enough that some of TL.net’s veteran voices felt it rough this would be Nazgul’s first match. This was also partially the design of the About StarCraft—a show that focused on an established pro (JinNam) and then pitted them against a newcomer (Nazgul).



Inherently the underdog, Nazgul came prepared. He whipped up specific early game strategies that he used to build an ever-mounting lead over JinNam. Nazgul had his opponent in a complete chokehold, having more resources, upgrades, and supply—only to have his lead snatched from him by the game crashing. He wrote in a later battle report that the production team planned to give him a victory by decision, but couldn’t because the replay wouldn’t load.



Nazgul recalls the crash as even more disastrous from a strategic lens. “It was one of those games where I’d prepared something really specific that you can only do once, and so that thing was winning the game. And the crash happens and I’m like, ‘Oh my god, I’m screwed now.’ You have this big surprise play up your sleeve and it’s gone.”




(According to another top European player and Liquid clan member, Daaman, he and Nazgul had secretly practiced this strategy for a week.)



Despite the disaster, Nazgul won the runback using a similar strategy but with variations on the details. The second win spoke well to Nazgul’s strength as a player, being able to rework the strategy a bit on the fly and still pick up a big win without the element of surprise. Nazgul would lose his next match on About StarCraft to the Terran, Lee, but it was likely valuable matchup experience in the end.







As the first month of his trip was coming to an end, it looked like the fun would soon be over. Nazgul was set to participate in one of the earliest team leagues, which pit teams like AMD against others in what’s almost a kind of relay race or crew battle where each team sends a player out to 1v1 another. As a part of the pre-season he’d face off against XellOs.



If XellOs wasn’t a top 10 player worldwide at that moment, he was damn close—and he’d be top 5 by the year’s end. Nicknamed “Perfect Terran,” XellOs was defined by immaculate, clean play and was already on his way to having an insane year where he’d beat Boxer and a number of other top players. The mood on the forums was less than optimistic.





The news of the result came in the way that it always did back then - a thread on TL.net.



The topic read: “Nazgul defeats XellOs”



Underneath, in the body: “And he made it look easy -_-;;”







Posted by waxangel, the now editor of TL.net, he’d follow that result with a battle report that was more detailed than the standard of the day. This report is longer than the rest,” wax wrote, “because everyone here seems to care so much about Naz.”



In the Western community, Nazgul was beloved—a genuine fan favorite. It’s a sentiment that was obvious enough to joke about at the time but even the obvious things can go forgotten and buried. At the same time Nazgul was a player, he was also a community voice and leader.



This was a player who not only replayed his match against JinNam but rewrote his own in-depth battle report of that match after it got eaten by the html. This was a professional player with thousands of posts, someone who’d developed an instant rapport not just through admirable skill, but through helping to create and run one of gaming’s largest community websites at the time.





Hell, Victor the Co-Ceo is still posting and has over 22,000 posts today. In my community boards experience, we’d call that person a spammer. A part of what made Nazgul special as a player was that he was never just that.



Shortly after, Nazgul would qualify for one of the biggest leagues in Korea - the Ongament Challenge League (OCL). Even if everyone was rooting for him, given how brutal this mecca’s pilgrimage was, Nazgul had still surprised pretty much everyone but himself.



Were you surprised by that [XellOs win] at that moment?



“No, I wasn’t really surprised but I don’t know that that’s unique to me. In most sports if you wanna make it to the top you have to have a pretty relentless self-belief. For me I definitely felt like I could and would beat players like that given the right opportunities. [...] It was a big accomplishment. There was definitely a sense of accomplishment.”



Nazgul’s voice trails down a bit, “I would’ve liked to have done a bit more of it, though.”



Running out of steam [March-April 2003]



In Brood War, StarCraft, and most 1v1 sports with heavy tournament schedules, reaching the top is only part of the challenge. A bigger part is staying there.



Nazgul had gotten off to a great start not only by beating JinNam and XellOs but by qualifying for the OnGameNet Challenge League (OCL), the tournament that fed into the grandest Brood War competition of them all: The OnGameNet Starleague (OSL). In the OCL itself, he’d face opponents that were lower caliber and go in with much higher standing. His first opponent, Classic_NT, was a rookie somewhat on the rise and his second, SaferZerg, was a Zerg main with a successful career that had been doing well in the year.



According to a battle report by a prominent TL.net writer and community member mensrea, the casters even favored Nazgul to exit the group in first if he beat Classic_NT. In early Brood War, with the game so undiscovered and the competition so deep, it’s always “if.”







This time, Nazgul was on the receiving end of an early game strategy as Classic_NT rushed marines, medics, and tanks - a strong offensive combination of range, mass, and healing. Nazgul had built a nice wealth of Dragoons (strong and flexible Protoss units in the early game) and in one moment seemed like he’d stave off the advance.



However, mensrea and a number of other commentators note that Nazgul’s micro (or execution) was off. He didn’t seem to be controlling his units well and from watching what few other available VODS there are, the analysis lines up. Dragoons have a great utility in form of range, being able to kite out. They’re vital in the early game in the Protoss vs. Terran (PvT) matchup and in other games Nazgul had microed them well enough to handle tanks or marines. Not here. Having lost too much too early, Nazgul concedes.



In his next game, he’d face SaferZerg where he’d put up a considerably better fight. However, SaferZerg won the war over expansion and hemmed Nazgul in, building up a better economy, better control over the map, and ultimately a better army. When the late game rolled around, Nazgul lost SaferZerg’s larger army.







Following these two defeats, Nazgul would fall out early in two preliminaries—though, to two very strong opponents. He fell to kOs, a Terran who had beaten JinNam, Reach, and taken a game off of Boxer. Then Nazgul later fell to JJu, a rising Zerg talent. Nazgul managed to take a game off the latter, which albeit impressive, wasn’t enough to qualify for the next league and wasn’t enough for Nazgul.



“For a period of one to two years I think I was arguably the best player outside of Korea. When I went to Korea, now if I think back it’s like, ‘I won 50% of my professional matches, qualified into Ongamenet Starleague on my first try…’ There’s other players that lived there for three years before qualifying for their first time. So now I think, ‘Oh maybe that was as bit of a special moment!”



“But if I think back, the feeling was actually, ‘Wow, I failed!’ Because I lost in the first round of the TV matches. It wasn’t, ‘Oh my god, look at me I qualified!’ I expected to qualify and losing was disappointing. It wasn’t some amazing moment. [...] I was unhappy with anything that wasn’t to my standards.”







New hands and familiar declines [April 2003-]



Nazgul’s brand of perfectionism and all-or-nothing style had gotten him up to this apex but it wouldn’t match well with the reality of the situation. Running out of money in his early 20’s, future looking hazy, it wasn’t clear that life would let Nazgul stay the StarCraft course at all—let alone play his best game. For him, it wasn’t growing old and slowing down that was the trouble—it was growing up and needing income and security.



“For years on end people have been writing, ‘Oh if you’re 22 years old or 23 years old you can write yourself off as an esports player.’ I’ve never believed that to be true. I always believed that was related to economics because if you’re making nothing, or close to nothing compared to having a job, then once you hit 21 you better start thinking about some different things.”



“In Korea, I was like hey I got to figure something out with regards to my life. Don’t really know what, but obviously I can’t really keep doing this. So I went back to the Netherlands, I went to study International Business Administration. I started playing Poker and so in that period I stopped playing as much.”



For those that know Brood War this is a very familiar end to a pro career. Just knowing older esports scenes means it’s not novel. In the early, underfunded days of competition only very few athletes could make a real, livable wage from esports. Living off the passion of the game could work in the teen years but adulthood sets on fierce in the 20’s and that need for financial security mounts.







Despite his gearing down directly after returning to the Netherlands, Nazgul’s form remained sharp. “I think I still won WCG Netherlands 2003 [the regional qualifier for WCG 2003] - I was still in pretty good shape.” Nazgul shapes out the gradual slope of the decline. “Then in 2004 I think I won it again, but that was not really playing for a year but then practicing a month before. And then after that it really, really slowed down.”



He qualified for both WCG 2003 and 2004 but didn’t escape groups at either event. In both years, he was still managing to take games—and even sets—off of strong Foreign players like Rekrul, Hellghost, Socke, Fisheye, and Elky. He won some notable tournaments too, like AMD pG Challenge Summer 2003, the first and third Team Liquid Invitationals, and helped the Netherlands team go far in European competitions.



It is enough for Nazgul to wonder if he didn’t have a few good years of prime Brood War in him that he simply didn’t get to play out. “I really quit because of life reasons. For StarCraft, I feel like I stopped when I was at my best.”



“My speed was still my weakness,” Nazgul admits, referring to his actions per minute (APM). High APM is key to a lot of the absolute highest echelon of players in both Brood War and StarCraft 2 now and like many older era players, Nazgul’s APM wasn’t the best.







“I was of medium speed outside of Korea, probably lower speed in Korea. APM was not the reason why [I retired]. I could’ve played at the top for much, much longer with my speed. But if you look like 4, 5, 6 years after my time, then you’re hitting speeds that I never could have competed with even if I continued.”



Still, he was getting outpaced by newer and younger European talent like Mondragon or Ret. He was also growing up and taking on a new hand that the world had bizarrely dealt to many a retired Brood War pro: Poker.



Grrrr, Elky, and many other Brood War pros had taken to online poker as a new form of competition. One which was more financially viable as well. Grrrr and Nazgul would both have solid poker careers before transitioning to other things while Elky is still a very accomplished poker player.







This was because, with the advent of online gambling, poker in particular was hitting its own new era of play. One that StarCraft players were surprisingly well-suited for.



“When you play Poker,” Nazgul explains, “the money you earn is your working capital. So you start with low stakes, you start winning, if you cash it out, that means you have no money to go to the next stakes.You wanna keep going up, you wanna keep levelling, playing higher and higher tables.”



If you’re feeling deja vu, you might be remembering Nazgul’s earlier words about the feeling of levelling up in StarCraft and playing higher and higher level opponents.



“The money online, I think to at least my generation of poker players, felt fictional. It felt like points in a game that would get you to the next level.”



“If you think of all the different games out there, I don’t think poker is the most similar to StarCraft but the similarity is like, you need to put in the hours, you need to self-evaluate, you need to have strategic reasoning. [...] When we switched to poker it’s like this intersection between people who learned poker in live casinos and bars in the United States and stuff.”



“And then there’s like a new generation that would be playing like ten to twenty tables online and playing massive amounts of hands and looking at it like StarCraft, and laddering up.” Asking Nazgul about it, he confirms that the online world even gave his generation of players an advantage. “Old school poker players, maybe they looked down on it, but they couldn’t cope with playing 15 tables at the same time, learning at a rapid speed, doing all this stuff at the same time.”



He says that with no glee or remorse either, as newer poker players eventually beat him out too. “And then eventually, after like 5, 6, 7 years of my career there were other advancements in terms of using software and analytical programs and statistics. For me, I was always playing based on feel and not looking at statistics and numbers.”







“Then you have this clash of the early online players who are not using statistical programs versus the newer generation who are. For a while I was like, ‘Well, that’s all nonsense. I can easily beat it.’ Turns out you can’t.”



“I’m definitely a victim of, at some point you start believing yourself a little too much and you stop reinventing. That’s what happened with me in Poker.”



If playing 15 tables and rapidly intaking diverse sets of info sounds like StarCraft’s fast game of information asymmetry, then the rising statistical modelling probably ought to sound like the ways StarCraft pros squeeze the game via APM, macros, and innovation. Nazgul found that his time as a competitor in both spaces ran out.







But his time as a community leader never stopped. Running TL.net all the way up to StarCraft 2’s release, he’d transition fully into that leadership role and follow the opportunity to build TL out from clan to website to professional team—keeping the community aspect intact all along the way.



He tells me that, by the time he was competing in StarCraft 2, he had little to no desire for destroying the competition or grinding up to the top. He just wanted to put the hours in to understand the game deeply enough to scout players, scope out events, and understand the community. His golden age in the competitive sense was long gone and he was chasing a new golden age for Team Liquid.



After the Curse merger, the 4 LCS titles, the fastest CS:GO Grand Slam in history, the TI title, the longest concurrent number 1 run in Melee history, and whatever you want to call Rapha’s insane dominance over Quake—there’s no doubt Team Liquid has had its golden ages.



It’s those golden ages that slowly transition Nazgul into Victor, less the player and more the leader, team owner, and person. But there’s a value in looking back at Nazgul, the young Dutch competitor whose run was simultaneously emblematic of the struggles of a foreign player in the early years of Brood War and unique enough to be a story all his own.




Writer // Austin R. Ryan
Graphics // Zack Kiesewetter











































Writer
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33203 Posts
July 22 2021 16:47 GMT
#2
neat
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
KadaverBB
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany25657 Posts
July 22 2021 17:11 GMT
#3
I love this
AdministratorLaws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
July 22 2021 17:43 GMT
#4
That Nazgul vs Boxer series is what drew me into Esports.

For some reason I can't find the the Pony Express interview I did with Nazgul

I have it saved and can post it if it's cool, just won't be pony express thread sadly, it really shows where Nazguls mindset was at years prior to TL being what it is now.
Life?
CHEONSOYUN
Profile Joined August 2017
516 Posts
July 22 2021 17:46 GMT
#5
beautiful long-form article. i always love hearing about the golden era of starcraft
JAEDONG...!!! EFFORT IS ANGRY. ZERG...?!
Furlisht
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium177 Posts
July 22 2021 18:06 GMT
#6
Such a great article about such a legend of this universe!

Thanks for this!
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44051 Posts
July 22 2021 18:10 GMT
#7
Awesome article, and that series vs. Boxer was awesome
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
ZZZero.O
Profile Joined July 2011
Poland1466 Posts
July 22 2021 18:52 GMT
#8
These articles are great to remind everyone how StarCraft became a major game in the world. That's thanks to people like Nazgul, Elky and plenty of others who became our idols and we wanted to be gosu like them
https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic || https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Bombastic_StarLeague || https://linktr.ee/bombastic
Xeln4g4
Profile Joined January 2005
Italy1208 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-22 19:06:37
July 22 2021 19:06 GMT
#9
10/10 article, will read in full later
Plyff
Profile Joined March 2021
United States143 Posts
July 22 2021 19:48 GMT
#10
On July 23 2021 02:43 ShoCkeyy wrote:
That Nazgul vs Boxer series is what drew me into Esports.

For some reason I can't find the the Pony Express interview I did with Nazgul

I have it saved and can post it if it's cool, just won't be pony express thread sadly, it really shows where Nazguls mindset was at years prior to TL being what it is now.


Definitely post it! Even if only a few people watch it, I think preserving the history of early scenes is vital stuff. If anyone else wants to know or write about the era, it'll be helpful.
Writer
uselless
Profile Joined April 2021
89 Posts
July 22 2021 19:59 GMT
#11
honestly, as a younger watcher of starcraft, i’ve never had an interest in brood war. i’ve always been interested in the background of nazgul’s starcraft background though (i came from the paidbysteve days), and this article was a great recount of his career. thank you!
maru :D
Rei_Rice
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany82 Posts
July 22 2021 20:00 GMT
#12
Very good article. I can remember a lot of those games and stories.
http://www.ricegamers.com
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28600 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-22 20:34:36
July 22 2021 20:34 GMT
#13
overrated

I mean Good Sir Victor Goossens is lord and savior of the universe
Moderator
Liquid`Zephyr
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States996 Posts
July 22 2021 21:13 GMT
#14
That guy could play. Solid article.
Team LiquidPoorUser
EndingLife
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States1587 Posts
July 22 2021 21:50 GMT
#15
Great article! It has been a long time coming... One of my earliest brood war memories that always stood out to me was a game between Nazgul and Nada on Lost Temple. Positions were 9 o clock vs 6 o clock, fast 2 tank drop vs fast reaver drop. The level of micro that these two displayed had basically been unseen at the time.
SmoKim
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark10301 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-22 22:11:17
July 22 2021 22:09 GMT
#16
Best article i have ever read on TL.net.


Nazgul might be the most important foreigner in esport history. Truly a hero of everything starcraft and western Esports. So glad to see all the greatness he has achived. No one deserves it like him. Hail to the king baby


Damn how old is Wax o_0 ?
"LOL I have 202 supply right now (3 minutes later)..."LOL NOW I HAVE 220 SUPPLY SUP?!?!?" - Mondragon
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2221 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-22 22:20:12
July 22 2021 22:19 GMT
#17
Legendary man~


+ Show Spoiler +
employ me Naz, i can be TLs Janitor
StarCraft & Audax Italiano
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42259 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-23 03:14:45
July 22 2021 23:26 GMT
#18
Naz is a part of the history of esports at this point. Man is a legend.


I also think poker and Starcraft are more similar than people think. Obviously Starcraft has a large execution component that limits what you can actually do from the things you’d like to do. But it is fundamentally a strategy game of limited information, you assign your opponent a range, you weight that range by probability, and then you optimize against that. There’s variance, you won’t always pick the exact counter to what they have, sometimes they’ll do something suboptimal that you correctly assigned a low chance to, whatever, but with a large sample size and solid strategy you’ll win more than you lose.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28600 Posts
July 23 2021 00:47 GMT
#19
The execution component is even there for online poker - I haven't paid attention lately, but there was a period where every time someone set a new record for most tables or sitngos played simultaneously while making a profit or whatever, it was an ex-brood war player. And the more tables you're able to play without being hindered by it, the better.
Moderator
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51399 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-23 01:24:12
July 23 2021 01:19 GMT
#20
On July 23 2021 02:43 ShoCkeyy wrote:

That Nazgul vs Boxer series is what drew me into Esports.

For some reason I can't find the the Pony Express interview I did with Nazgul

I have it saved and can post it if it's cool, just won't be pony express thread sadly, it really shows where Nazguls mindset was at years prior to TL being what it is now.


similar boat here - i think my first ever exposure to professional starcraft was a replay of boxer vs nazgul on neo jungle story (from wcg 2001 i think?) where boxer completely wrecks him with tank drops.

then it started the whole deep dive into who this "boxer" guy was and it all started...

edit: i think the css code in the article is fucking up with post formatting because everything is not paragraphing
Commentator
[GiTM]-Ace
Profile Joined September 2002
United States4935 Posts
July 23 2021 02:21 GMT
#21
ahh good times Naz is a legend. I didn't remember most of those games.
I may not be the best player right now but I think I can beat any 'best' players. I'll beat all the best players and become the best player. Watch me. - Jju
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9102 Posts
July 23 2021 02:55 GMT
#22
Looks like a very cool article. I just skimmed it but will check back later.
Lambertus
Profile Joined February 2010
South Africa966 Posts
July 23 2021 06:56 GMT
#23
good read!
The only known Reverend on TL playing SC2 and BW (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409226)
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3415 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-23 08:14:59
July 23 2021 08:14 GMT
#24
Do I remember correctly that Nazgul did not use control groups in BW?

The BW era up until ~2005-2006 was my favourite time in the game for sure. Nazgul was a beast back then for sure.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
July 23 2021 08:19 GMT
#25
Yeah broadly speaking and with some exceptions I had my hotkeys on all my production buildings (think 1-8 gateways or something) while just predominantly looking at my units and the battlefield on the screen. I also use my left hand on the mouse even though I'm right handed. Suboptimal would be a fair way to describe it.
Administrator
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3415 Posts
July 23 2021 08:26 GMT
#26
It always boggles my mind how you could compete with the top dogs without using control groups. I was nowhere near your level at that point, but playing without them felt like playing without a hand. There was a time I thought you were just flexing on the poor koreans.

Sheth in SC2 was another player who's setup I found out of this world, and yet it seemed to have always worked for him.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
July 23 2021 09:17 GMT
#27
Good read!
dbrinker
Profile Joined May 2016
30 Posts
July 23 2021 10:10 GMT
#28
On July 23 2021 09:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
The execution component is even there for online poker - I haven't paid attention lately, but there was a period where every time someone set a new record for most tables or sitngos played simultaneously while making a profit or whatever, it was an ex-brood war player. And the more tables you're able to play without being hindered by it, the better.

yea I play more tables than any other 1kNL reg these days. I never even made GM but all the hours of playing competitive sc2 helps out a ton. you are completely right.
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
July 23 2021 10:32 GMT
#29
Very good article. I never knew Nazgul played at such a high level.

I also found it interesting for the history of the making TLnet as a community. It must have been very special time with so much of the scene congregating in a single place, and with everyone having that feeling of being part of something that is constantly growing and evolving (mostly?) for the better.

Can't help hoping that TLnet will be given a new lease on life through a major upgrade of the website. It does not look like RTS is dying with several new games on the horizon, and one could think that TLnet still has a role to play in the future, perhaps as a more generally-oriented RTS forum. But imo it would require the fundamental investment of a site upgrade before you can get the burst of activity from volunteers and forum members that could propel TLnet forward as a community.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
ffswowsucks
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Greece2294 Posts
July 23 2021 11:12 GMT
#30
Wow such nice article. thank you very much.!
Terran in particular is a notoriously strong race for a no brain skillhand bot style.
fLyiNgDroNe
Profile Joined September 2005
Belgium3996 Posts
July 23 2021 11:28 GMT
#31
Nazgul's pvt on LT singlehandedly redefined my view on the matchup the moment replays became available with 1.08. I couldn't believe how powerful protoss could be by smart usage of robo tech. Absolute legend and so grateful he's still with eSports.
Drone is a way of living
Liquid`Ret
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Netherlands4511 Posts
July 23 2021 12:25 GMT
#32
imagine being cannon rushed by this guy and then having to play zvp on neo hall of valhalla in game 2.

I remember following these games when they happend and damn it was an exciting time, and very impressive results. I always did feel that victor could've gotten a lot more out of brood if he wanted to.

nice write-up!
Team Liquid
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28600 Posts
July 23 2021 12:55 GMT
#33
On July 23 2021 17:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Yeah broadly speaking and with some exceptions I had my hotkeys on all my production buildings (think 1-8 gateways or something) while just predominantly looking at my units and the battlefield on the screen. I also use my left hand on the mouse even though I'm right handed. Suboptimal would be a fair way to describe it.


You also built units through positioning your mouse over the icon of the dragoon/zealot and then you'd cycle through your gateways and press the icons with your mouse, instead of 1z2z3z4d5d6d7d8d
Moderator
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28600 Posts
July 23 2021 13:01 GMT
#34
On July 23 2021 21:25 Liquid`Ret wrote:
imagine being cannon rushed by this guy and then having to play zvp on neo hall of valhalla in game 2.

I remember following these games when they happend and damn it was an exciting time, and very impressive results. I always did feel that victor could've gotten a lot more out of brood if he wanted to.

nice write-up!


The build he made for playing you on jungle story was amazing. I think that was probably the first conscious protoss use of a lingproof wallin in any competition - it wasn't done to help with a fast expand, but to help give absurdly fast tech.
Moderator
Fedaykin
Profile Joined February 2003
Netherlands2003 Posts
July 23 2021 18:52 GMT
#35
On July 23 2021 17:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Yeah broadly speaking and with some exceptions I had my hotkeys....

Never forget who taught you hotkeys mate
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
July 23 2021 20:23 GMT
#36
This was for a pony express issue around April-May 2009, just can't find it. This is in reference more to TL.net as a community than his progamming career.

What was your main plan for Teamliquid?

Nazgul: From the moment TL started it was our intention to create the best possible SC site. Though there were many sites out there, some more interesting than others, but even the biggest such as broodwar.com were crap. We believed the SC fans deserved something bigger and better combined with a great atmosphere. Strict moderation is and was a rarity among SC sites. In my opinion it is the only way to create a truly great site. Most places think in order to get a large following you shouldn’t ban people. We have always relied on believing the opposite.

There’s just so much uniqueness to be found on TL. It started with original content for news, replays, forums, TL events and we never looked back. To visit TL now and see the Calendar, TLPD, Fantasy league, TSL and tons of other features is just a great pleasure. Not to mention all the other awesome future features we are working on that I can’t speak of yet.

We never just tried to be one of the sites, copying from others and producing as much junk as possible in order to hope to entertain a little. We started out solely with original content, using the Liquid name to draw people to the site and making sure they would never leave by just being better than anyone else.



You were with TL since the very beginning. Did it grow the way you wanted it too or did it take a turn and form into what it is now?

Nazgul: It’s impossible to predict specific things TL has come up with in the past, but on a more general level the atmosphere and level of professionalism of staff are everything we could have hoped for. TL is not just a place where you can share your passion for SC but also to be part of the greatest community I have ever encountered on the internet. It sounds cheesy but it is the truth. TL rocks it has grown into everything we hoped it could be and more.

With SC2 coming out, do you think TL will get more popular and bigger?

Nazgul: TL will undeniably grow with SC2. It even grew with the announcement of SC2, let alone the actual release. It is going to be a great challenge for us to focus on multiple games but we are doing everything we can to be ready. It is going to be hard with so many new members; moderation will only get us so far. We will need all of you to pick things up and explain new members how things work here. Like I said it’s going to be a challenge and we’re highly motivated and more than ready to take it heads on.

How do you feel about what goes on in TL, such as the members, the staff, the news?

Nazgul: The staff is awesome and the amount of contributions coming from within the forum itself is amazing. So much time goes into things that our members never get to see, every little move we make is well thought through and discussed many times over. Rarely do we prematurely release something or do things that suck. To get things right it takes tremendous amounts of preparation that often goes unseen. The commitment of so many staff members that are putting in countless of hours without ever being in the spotlight is astonishing. This kind of passion is something money will never be able to buy.

Is there any secret plans brewing inside of TL.net that we can't know about?

Nazgul: We have never had as many large projects in development as we currently have. Be ready for some crazy stuff the coming few months.

Life?
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4168 Posts
July 23 2021 20:41 GMT
#37
Fantastic article, big thx
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
lxginverse
Profile Joined May 2008
Monaco1506 Posts
July 23 2021 20:42 GMT
#38
Nazgul's WCG games were among the first reps I've seen after getting an internet connection around 2003. It blew my mind back then how far their level of play is from what we have here. Never got that close but I've always tried to model my games after him, it served me quite well in local tourneys. Always will be my favorite Protoss for sure. Nice write up!
fromis_9 enjoyer
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
July 23 2021 22:53 GMT
#39
what a legend
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27136 Posts
July 23 2021 22:59 GMT
#40
Nice writeup, thank you. The apm thing doesn't get better with age... trust me.
ModeratorGodfather
Redcloak
Profile Joined December 2002
United States530 Posts
July 24 2021 04:27 GMT
#41
Great read but I hate that it reminds me how old I am.
Just Some Old Man
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-24 05:27:51
July 24 2021 05:26 GMT
#42
Not going to lie... I was scared when I saw this title, and thought he was retiring or something. Whew.

<3 Victor so much.

You guys have no idea the level-headedness he brought to forum staff discussions.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9102 Posts
July 24 2021 14:03 GMT
#43
On July 23 2021 17:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Yeah broadly speaking and with some exceptions I had my hotkeys on all my production buildings (think 1-8 gateways or something) while just predominantly looking at my units and the battlefield on the screen.


I play like Naz. Truly an inspiration.
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34486 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-24 19:15:46
July 24 2021 19:15 GMT
#44
Great read, thanks Plyff and thanks Nazgul
Moderator
Jeremy Reimer
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada968 Posts
July 24 2021 21:15 GMT
#45
Awesome article about an awesome guy. So great to fill out the grand history of Brood War!
"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." -- Carl Sagan
Like classic sci-fi and space opera? Check out my author page on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Jeremy-Reimer/e/B007CMQGI4/
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
July 25 2021 05:51 GMT
#46
great read, thank you for the writeup!
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
Akio
Profile Blog Joined January 2019
Finland1838 Posts
July 25 2021 14:34 GMT
#47
Great read, TL writers never disappoint.
Mine gas, build tanks.
mel_ee
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
2448 Posts
July 25 2021 16:45 GMT
#48
what a great flash back history lesson! love it
Behold the bold soldier, control the globe slowly proceeds to blow swingin swords like Shinobi
Chosi
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Germany1302 Posts
July 25 2021 21:42 GMT
#49
Great article, I went straight down the nostalgia rabbit hole and watched all the youtube clips. Golden days indeed.
Someday, you’re going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I’m still around to see it.
kingzitan
Profile Joined July 2021
4 Posts
July 26 2021 12:53 GMT
#50
Solid article.
Xeofreestyler
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Belgium6767 Posts
July 26 2021 23:53 GMT
#51
This is the stuff of legends
Graphics
Incomplete..ReV
Profile Joined August 2017
Norway627 Posts
July 27 2021 19:35 GMT
#52
Fantastic article - really great job!

Really interesting to read about those days, not having experienced it myself and all. Also really grounding to read about people with such talent, hard work, and focus. It's the sort of thing I wish I could do myself, but find myself only admiring in others.

10/10!
It's ok. I still love you <3
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia12997 Posts
July 27 2021 22:47 GMT
#53
Thanks for this. As a BW oldy I remember those days well! I used to study Naz's series vs Boxer for hours to try learn how to PvT properly. Naz was always a very big proponent of using speed shuttles in late game PvT and all these years later the mass speed shuttle PvT style is finally vindicating him :D
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-28 18:57:14
July 28 2021 18:52 GMT
#54
Thanks for the kind comments everyone. It means a lot.

On July 23 2021 21:25 Liquid`Ret wrote:
imagine being cannon rushed by this guy and then having to play zvp on neo hall of valhalla in game 2.

I remember following these games when they happend and damn it was an exciting time, and very impressive results. I always did feel that victor could've gotten a lot more out of brood if he wanted to.

nice write-up!

I'm so sorry for all the hardship. I always had to come up with something else to make sure I started ahead against the macro beast you were.

On July 23 2021 21:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2021 17:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Yeah broadly speaking and with some exceptions I had my hotkeys on all my production buildings (think 1-8 gateways or something) while just predominantly looking at my units and the battlefield on the screen. I also use my left hand on the mouse even though I'm right handed. Suboptimal would be a fair way to describe it.


You also built units through positioning your mouse over the icon of the dragoon/zealot and then you'd cycle through your gateways and press the icons with your mouse, instead of 1z2z3z4d5d6d7d8d

True I almost forgot about that. I could rely on your memory and knowledge for so much of my career. Thank you <3

On July 23 2021 22:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2021 21:25 Liquid`Ret wrote:
imagine being cannon rushed by this guy and then having to play zvp on neo hall of valhalla in game 2.

I remember following these games when they happend and damn it was an exciting time, and very impressive results. I always did feel that victor could've gotten a lot more out of brood if he wanted to.

nice write-up!


The build he made for playing you on jungle story was amazing. I think that was probably the first conscious protoss use of a lingproof wallin in any competition - it wasn't done to help with a fast expand, but to help give absurdly fast tech.

This makes me a bit sad to think about. I'm pretty sure this is the 2003 WCG qualifier. I was in the best shape of my life having practiced the WCG maps such a crazy amount with you and everyone else. If I recall correctly Ret suffered from it in the NL qualifier on Jungle Story but then they changed the maps shortly before the actual finals and instead of my best result I got my worst result at WCG.

On July 24 2021 03:52 Fedaykin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2021 17:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Yeah broadly speaking and with some exceptions I had my hotkeys....

Never forget who taught you hotkeys mate

Lol sick did you? My memory is so fuzzy but it is great to hear from you again!!!

On July 28 2021 07:47 RowdierBob wrote:
Thanks for this. As a BW oldy I remember those days well! I used to study Naz's series vs Boxer for hours to try learn how to PvT properly. Naz was always a very big proponent of using speed shuttles in late game PvT and all these years later the mass speed shuttle PvT style is finally vindicating him :D

Speed shuttles and shield batteries.. took a long time for them to see their due.
Administrator
TanksALot
Profile Joined December 2002
United States153 Posts
August 07 2021 23:11 GMT
#55
Awesome read and very well written. Really brought me back to the days of battlereports.com
Big up
VonDarkmore
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Australia192 Posts
August 10 2021 10:30 GMT
#56
On July 23 2021 21:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +


You also built units through positioning your mouse over the icon of the dragoon/zealot and then you'd cycle through your gateways and press the icons with your mouse, instead of 1z2z3z4d5d6d7d8d


I remember doing this in the early days, some of my family got pretty good at it and stayed with this style. I upgraded to hotkeys haha.

You have always been amazing Naz! Great to see an article like this telling a good portion of your journey in life & Brood War. Highlighting it for the modern players and fans is a must.
One who understands much displays a greater simplicity of character than one who understands little
Destroyer
Profile Joined October 2002
Czech Republic931 Posts
October 03 2021 13:12 GMT
#57
So many memories, remember we were rooting for Naz so much to be successful in Korea. Was great to be around back then.
never too old for starcraft :)
imRadu
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
1798 Posts
October 28 2021 10:15 GMT
#58
Great read, amazing community <3 Naz
Its really good to see that some people dont let education get in the way of their ignorance
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4536 Posts
November 22 2021 09:50 GMT
#59
Wow, so much nostalgia,

Reading through the article, and there was so much details. Yet I feel like we all were in our early 20's and were really hyperactive. If you think about it, Naz was additionally doing real work for the community.

Sometimes I would come back from my university classes and Naz would have sent me a list of ladder abusers to ban, it was when online alternative ladders blew up suddenly and one man could not track it all anymore.

It meant a lot, and indirectly, what he did for Team Liquid, also had a community building impact in other places, like WGtour, PGtour, etc...

Very few player had that special class. A special maturity, it was a mix of unconditional confidence in his skills, but an incredible down to earth attitude which is not to be confused with false modesty.

I am very happy that the success story, continues and that is this article is just a good reminder of how we got here, but we know the other half of the story begins.

Let me quote the end of the new Dune movie.
"This is only the beginning"
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0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4536 Posts
November 22 2021 10:39 GMT
#60
I also want to remind he helped figuring out a lot of tricks that would be used to expose map hackers. Those tips helped JCA add many features to BWChart.
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Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28600 Posts
November 22 2021 13:09 GMT
#61
Ya, even APM as a concept is actually something Nazgul deserves credit for. I'm sure he doesn't remember it though.

There was another person from another forum - the battlereports/nohunters community (I think it was the user known was WilliamWC3), who had developed a program named SuperView, which you could use to look at data from replays, in an extremely rudimentary way. This program did not count actions for you, but it listed whenever a player had done something. I had this program, but had not really used it for anything - it gave you the raw data from a replay file, but it basically wasn't comprehensive at all.

After the world dream tour scandal, where ilnp (dudey) had gotten a korean progamer to play for him (oversky), and dudey said it was himself playing, nazgul approached me and asked if I could maybe try to use this program to see if dudey's raw data input from the WDT games looked similarly to how the raw data input from other games looked.

I then spent a decent amount of time counting individual actions from two different replays, and saw that the frequency WDT-dudey did stuff was about 2.5 times the frequency of regular-dudey. While this operated in 40 second frequencies rather than full minutes, this was essentially the first time, to my knowledge, that anyone used replay data to count how fast someone was playing.
Moderator
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-23 02:12:57
November 23 2021 02:12 GMT
#62
Fantastic article. Thanks for writing it. BW history is always so interesting to read, and it always makes me sad that I missed a huge chunk of it. Many thanks to Nazgul (and other contributors) for his hard work over the years to make TL the best community on the internet.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4536 Posts
November 27 2021 19:32 GMT
#63
On November 22 2021 22:09 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ya, even APM as a concept is actually something Nazgul deserves credit for. I'm sure he doesn't remember it though.

There was another person from another forum - the battlereports/nohunters community (I think it was the user known was WilliamWC3), who had developed a program named SuperView, which you could use to look at data from replays, in an extremely rudimentary way. This program did not count actions for you, but it listed whenever a player had done something. I had this program, but had not really used it for anything - it gave you the raw data from a replay file, but it basically wasn't comprehensive at all.

After the world dream tour scandal, where ilnp (dudey) had gotten a korean progamer to play for him (oversky), and dudey said it was himself playing, nazgul approached me and asked if I could maybe try to use this program to see if dudey's raw data input from the WDT games looked similarly to how the raw data input from other games looked.

I then spent a decent amount of time counting individual actions from two different replays, and saw that the frequency WDT-dudey did stuff was about 2.5 times the frequency of regular-dudey. While this operated in 40 second frequencies rather than full minutes, this was essentially the first time, to my knowledge, that anyone used replay data to count how fast someone was playing.


Yes, I have been crediting JCA and people around him but maybe superview predated this. I don't remember, I just remember that it was a natural thing to add to BWChart. Globally all people that help replay analyzers at that time, things moved fast!
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Weltschmerz
Profile Joined March 2008
Russian Federation37 Posts
November 28 2021 22:50 GMT
#64
I have a bit different memories of those times, still remember Asmoday vs Yellow showmatch. And Andoroide vs Foru final in WCG 2005 (although it was a bit later than Nazgul era).
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