On September 19 2020 19:00 Avi-Love wrote: It was Suncow, and he stayed at the Siz house where he started several fights, I also recall there being some kind of hygiene problems.. (all of the Koreans thought he smelled awful).
funnily enough, I think he's in jail now or was in jail in the recent past
If Scarlet can pull off the impossible feat of learning bw and qualifying for a league within a year, then we have to change some of our assumptions for why we aren't at the top of competitive sc.
Seems like her psychology and drive are pushing her success faster than her (incredible) talent.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Seems like the vague generalizations can be dismissed with, "this is a game of people and THAT person for X reasons couldn't make it", all the blanket assumptions are crumpled up in the waste-bin.
It isn't race, it isn't place, it is person.
It would be really nice to have a regional starcraft ladder tour run by Blizzard+Afreeca, to make it through this damn pandemic. There are so many talented latin, european, russian-baltic-slavic gamers and an entire generation of digital natives who we could entice into our game. Viewership is up. Comeon Blizzard, invite ASL to run an international tournament based upon your existing ladder structure. Incase you haven't noticed, you made the best game in history and we will still be here in 10 years. Grow this motha F'a.
Also, Madcow ??... I remember that guy from Channel -x17 days on the forums ..... He went to korea? LOL.
(edit, also Scan is playing KCM right now after posting in this thread earlier. Nutts)
Someone who knows their BW history better than me can confirm/deny but I think in some of the very early OSLs they had a similar arrangement where they had a special qualifier for foreigners to join the OSL. I’m pretty sure Asmodey made his only OSL this way. So there is precedent. Although this would’ve been back in early 2000s when foreigners could still respectably compete with Koreans.
On September 19 2020 19:29 AttackZerg wrote: If Scarlet can pull off the impossible feat of learning bw and qualifying for a league within a year, then we have to change some of our assumptions for why we aren't at the top of competitive sc.
Seems like her psychology and drive are pushing her success faster than her (incredible) talent.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Seems like the vague generalizations can be dismissed with, "this is a game of people and THAT person for X reasons couldn't make it", all the blanket assumptions are crumpled up in the waste-bin.
It isn't race, it isn't place, it is person.
It would be really nice to have a regional starcraft ladder tour run by Blizzard+Afreeca, to make it through this damn pandemic. There are so many talented latin, european, russian-baltic-slavic gamers and an entire generation of digital natives who we could entice into our game. Viewership is up. Comeon Blizzard, invite ASL to run an international tournament based upon your existing ladder structure. Incase you haven't noticed, you made the best game in history and we will still be here in 10 years. Grow this motha F'a.
Also, Madcow ??... I remember that guy from Channel -x17 days on the forums ..... He went to korea? LOL.
(edit, also Scan is playing KCM right now after posting in this thread earlier. Nutts)
Scarlett has already said that when she moves back to canada finding low latency games versus good players will be way more difficult. She expects her improving to slow. So it is the person, but it's also the place.
Koreans built the blueprints of how bw is played, they are also still the ones developing it. Without actually understanding the korean language properly, there is not much chance for foreigners to get really good.
There is also the issue of games that aren't 100% optimal in terms of turn rate and latency overall. All the tryhard games from Koreans are at the most optimal TR and Latency.
Lastly, their scene is much bigger. They actually get to play in an environment in which they can improve and develop over time. If you are trying to improve one of your matchups by planning builds and ideas, you actually can do that quite effectively in the korean environment. If I would like to do that in my situation, I wouldn't get to use almost any of it as my first game on the ladder would be vs Kwark and his nexus first all in or something of that nature..
Anyway, I think many foreigners that play the game properly are doing quite good in spite of the situation that they are in.
On September 19 2020 19:29 AttackZerg wrote: If Scarlet can pull off the impossible feat of learning bw and qualifying for a league within a year, then we have to change some of our assumptions for why we aren't at the top of competitive sc.
Seems like her psychology and drive are pushing her success faster than her (incredible) talent.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Seems like the vague generalizations can be dismissed with, "this is a game of people and THAT person for X reasons couldn't make it", all the blanket assumptions are crumpled up in the waste-bin.
It isn't race, it isn't place, it is person.
It would be really nice to have a regional starcraft ladder tour run by Blizzard+Afreeca, to make it through this damn pandemic. There are so many talented latin, european, russian-baltic-slavic gamers and an entire generation of digital natives who we could entice into our game. Viewership is up. Comeon Blizzard, invite ASL to run an international tournament based upon your existing ladder structure. Incase you haven't noticed, you made the best game in history and we will still be here in 10 years. Grow this motha F'a.
Also, Madcow ??... I remember that guy from Channel -x17 days on the forums ..... He went to korea? LOL.
(edit, also Scan is playing KCM right now after posting in this thread earlier. Nutts)
Scarlett has already said that when she moves back to canada finding low latency games versus good players will be way more difficult. She expects her improving to slow. So it is the person, but it's also the place.
Yes, I agree. I posted her success as compared to Serrals as counter points to old arguments.
She did rise to a very high ability coming from Canada in sc2, which has or had the same disadvantages of being on the wrong servers and being separate from the Mecca.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Artosis lives in Korea and has access to the servers and pro's in ages, so... ?
For the past few years he plays ASL qualifilers and has no chance at all, not even close. He might beat some unkown korean from time to time, but as soon as he has to play vs some semi-decent korean he gots hummiliated, not even a close games.
Not only at ASL qualifilers, but same is also on ladder. When he faces some semi top amateur, it gets ugly, no even close. Not worth mentioning if he faces top amateurs or for God sake pros
Not get me wrong, i am rooting for him, (as for scarlett and every other forigner), but the gap is just way too big. Like me beating my brother at 100m swimming and the go against Phelps 100m butterfly or what ever :D
P.S. Look what happened with Bisu this year, we are talking about Eonzerg, Trutacz, etc... ha-ha come on
Artosis hasn't been playing toward being a pro gamer for years, being a competitive player and caster has been his thing. He went to korea and got a job as an e-journalist for estro and turned that into a casting career. Last time I checked, he has been working non-stop for 10 years on sc2 on top of everything else.
The artosis example would be what I call "Player, not place". Artosis not becoming a top 5 player in korea doesn't relate to Serral becoming the best Zerg in the world, without living in korea and it doesn't change the fact, that a talented person like Scarlett can pick up the game and make incredible progress in no time. Or that Scarlett, Special and Astrea have all achieved GSL placement despite originating in countries that are not korea.
What you quoted was an example where two people defy the notion that "You must be in korea" and Scarlett is a special example because she is exceeding at BW BECAUSE she lives in korea for sc2. Like I said, all the old assumptions don't work anymore. It is more complicated.
Also, Scarlett lives in a pro gaming house as a pro gamer with pro gamers playing professionally, Artosis lives in his own house with his family and has multiple jobs. Very unfair example.
Pc bang culture & environment in Korea undoubtedly led to them advancing more than foreigners. SC2 was a fresh start with many players coming from other RTS games, so it's no wonder there are many foreign pros compared to BW. Why do all the tech gurus go to Silicone Valley? Because that's where the work is. Why do prospective peo gamers go to South Korea? Because that's where the scene is established.
On September 20 2020 06:02 psyCrowe wrote: Pc bang culture & environment in Korea undoubtedly led to them advancing more than foreigners. SC2 was a fresh start with many players coming from other RTS games, so it's no wonder there are many foreign pros compared to BW. Why do all the tech gurus go to Silicone Valley? Because that's where the work is. Why do prospective peo gamers go to South Korea? Because that's where the scene is established.
Seems like the best players, or at least 3 of them, are in Europe in sc2, which had the same exact korean dominance that bw had, and unlike bw, they dominated from the get go, we had non-korean champions at the beginning of bw.
They overcame the same culture dominance that we never did in bw.
I live in silicon valley, that is where tech guru's are fleeing by the 10's of thousands.
Edit = I lived in Silicon Valley. Now I'm inland 80 miles.
Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
On September 20 2020 06:02 psyCrowe wrote: Pc bang culture & environment in Korea undoubtedly led to them advancing more than foreigners. SC2 was a fresh start with many players coming from other RTS games, so it's no wonder there are many foreign pros compared to BW. Why do all the tech gurus go to Silicone Valley? Because that's where the work is. Why do prospective peo gamers go to South Korea? Because that's where the scene is established.
i agree with this the most. Anyone who is interested about listening to SC2 scene in Korea, watch this 4 parts of interview video. There's english sub.
I think the biggest negative impact in korea was in 2016 where proleague ended and a lot of pro teams disbanded+players quitting the game. And foreign sc2 scene is continuing to get bigger.
On September 20 2020 06:36 ...onmYwaY wrote: Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
Programmer.. still calls it in 2020 lol. Anyways, 12H a day practice, few BSL, Korean ladder in Korea won't help them to get a spot for ASTL. First, you need to study about korean society and their game culture. Coaches don't know new names players. They won't pick foreign players over Korean because 1) language barrier 2) out of meta trend 3) apmwise. Yoon started the competitive scene before me(i was doing my military service) and he was still not chosen for ASTL due to lack of stream activity, no connection with progamers. Yoon and i are close friends. He said he was mentally sick because he thought he would get drafted for ASTL and keep practicing his ladder and stayed on top5 or so.
He finally did something in ACS, but lost first 2 of his ASL qualifiers, used his ACS winner ticket(seeded for ASL qualifier final round) to make it into ASL group stage(ro24) with his 3rd try. It is extremely hard to qualify for ASL.
Yabsab is also a strong zerg who made into ACS semifinal stage, and he was also about to qualify for ASL, but he faced vs yoon(his 3rd try with seeded ticket) and lost to yoon 2-1. I wonder how the result might change if yabsab was in a spot in the group stage since his zvp is much more stronger than yoon imo.
On September 19 2020 20:18 RowdierBob wrote: Someone who knows there BW history better than me can confirm/deny but I think in some of the very early OSLs they had a similar arrangement where they had a special qualifier for foreigners to join the OSL. I’m pretty sure Asmodey made his only OSL this way. So there is precedent. Although this would’ve been back in early 2000s when foreigners could still respectably compete with Koreans.
they had an online foreigners only qualifier for one spot in the osl. they never did that again because it was just too easy to cheat a free flight/accomodation to korea and when you have the infrastructure to run offline qualifiers, then why not keep it that way.
On September 20 2020 06:36 ...onmYwaY wrote: Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
Programmer.. still calls it in 2020 lol. Anyways, 12H a day practice, few BSL, Korean ladder in Korea won't help them to get a spot for ASTL. First, you need to study about korean society and their game culture. Coaches don't know new names players. They won't pick foreign players over Korean because 1) language barrier 2) out of meta trend 3) apmwise. Yoon started the competitive scene before me(i was doing my military service) and he was still not chosen for ASTL due to lack of stream activity, no connection with progamers. Yoon and i are close friends. He said he was mentally sick because he thought he would get drafted for ASTL and keep practicing his ladder and stayed on top5 or so.
He finally did something in ACS, but lost first 2 of his ASL qualifiers, used his ACS winner ticket(seeded for ASL qualifier final round) to make it into ASL group stage(ro24) with his 3rd try. It is extremely hard to qualify for ASL.
Yabsab is also a strong zerg who made into ACS semifinal stage, and he was also about to qualify for ASL, but he faced vs yoon(his 3rd try with seeded ticket) and lost to yoon 2-1. I wonder how the result might change if yabsab was in a spot in the group stage since his zvp is much more stronger than yoon imo.
Scan the progamer police Apple does not acknowledge progamers as a word (writing of an IPhone) let’s do it right; Pro Gamers. However, I do not think that it is unfair to call the likes of Rain, Effort, Last, Jaedong and the rest that she has been teaming up with in BJ Destruction pro-gamers.
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went financially independent, moved with his family to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
Next category, since I already referenced early 20s’ Oya let’s say he wins BSL10... and 11-12. Goes full commit 12H days, move to Korea and get 3-6 months practice. Would it be unreasonable to reach ACS RO8? And in terms of skill reach ASTL? Even if the coaches won’t pick him based on language?
It’s all speculation and we will probably never find out.
My point is, going to extremes, is that this game is so freaking hard that for any non-Korean to go to Korea and make it into a premier tournament is on the verge of impossible.
EPT
