last week while watching ASL I stumbled across the ScForAll Spirit Tournament article in the Brood War liquipedia. I generally like the idea to give foreigners an opportunity to play in Korean offline events. In fact, it would be so cool to see a foreigner playing in ASL.
I wonder if it would be worthwhile for ASL to have a qualifier for foreigners next to their qualifiers in Seoul, Busan and so on.
In the current situation, it must be extremely difficult for a foreigner to play in ASL. I think the main reasons are:
1. Expenses for flight, accommodation, living in Korea, Visa 2. The lack of a social network upon arrival 3. No access to the best practice partners in the world 4. The language barrier 5. Facing the worlds best Brood War players 6. Restrictions due to Corona Virus
Would it be possible for ASL to finance a single spot (like a scholarship) for a foreigner? Would it be worthwhile for ASL? What do you think?
Given how difficult it is to actually qualify either way and how well-pronounced the skill disparity between top foreigners and the usual ASL crowd is, Afreeca would be shooting themselves in the foot if they ever chose to do that. People would be upset. They already have a system in place that is supposed to make qualifying somewhat easier - the ACS (the winner gets a free pass to an ASL qualifying round of their choice).
Holding an open qualifier for the ASTL, however, might have a different effect. And by open I don't just mean aimed at foreigners - one spot, no restrictions. The tour already gives exposure to a wider range of players than the ASL and if a foreign team were to qualify (which might not lie outside the realm of possibility), it will have been done fair and square, no favoritism.
I agree that it would be awesome to see a non-korean compete in an offline broodwar tournament again. But there are so many obstacles to overcome...
1. The skill-gap is way too large. Even if they would invite the best of them all it would be an epic upset if they even got through RO32 or RO24 if seeded. eOnzerg (and Dewalt?) both tried to stay and practice in Korea for 1 month before going to the qualifiers. None made it very far if I remember correct... I think eOn was eliminated by FlaSh and Light (as Protoss). Look, even Bisu need 3 tries to get into RO24(!).
Maybe Bonyth could get through ACS… but it would be a shoe in and lucky bracket… (no disrespect).
2. Korea is the heartbeat of StarCraft. And the audience there will of course cheer on their own. I am not too familiar with SC2, but I feel like the whole scene went into a huge decline after Serral won GSL vs. World twice and BlizzCon. Once the aura of GSL being the best, highest skilled tournament in the world was gone (true or not) the whole scene declined. The success of a non-korean in ASL would only have a positive impact on 1% of the brood war audience.
However, if we would have a guy or girl that the Korean audience could embrace (like Grrr… or Elky) which would live in in Korea and even speak Korean. Then just maybe… but I unfortunately I don’t think anyone has the capacity to do so… if not eOn, Bonyth, Trutacz would win life changing money in a lottery and take that leap of faith. There is no company that would sponsor it. That is for sure.
Lets run through some history… At the beginning of time we had [GG99]Slayer who qualified in an online tournament, went to Korea to collect the gold. Then we had Grrr… with a similar story being the first OSL champion. But let’s be honest, that will never ever happen again.
Next, we had KenKa, Elky, Maynard etc. and although Elky had some good runs he never won gold. After that we had the likes of Assem, Legionnare, Nazgul etc. but once KeSPA , PRO-licenses etc. was established none of them succeeded the route through Courage to obtain their licenses, right? I think they were all handed to them via Hexatron.
And years later we had SunCow*, Draco, NonY, Ret, PJ, Legend and IdrA all taking the route through either SKT1, Sparkyz or Hexatron/eStro to obtain their licenses. I think Ret came closest with a ZvZ finals.
However, to sum it up. No non-Korean has ever obtained a PRO-license without a team backing. That is how hard that was. And I am pretty sure that ACS or ASL qualifiers are ever harder.
Maybe if Bonyth, eOn, TrutaCz. Dewalt could claw their way through ACS with a bit of luck? Scan, who I am pretty sure has a winning record vs. all non-Koreans came close but no cigar.
…or if Mondragon, Testie, Androide, sEn would have tried Courage back in the day?
ASL is another beast indeed. I do not think it is possible for any non-Korean to make it… unfortunately
There's only one reason why there is no foreigner playing in ASL.
5. Facing the worlds best Brood War players
No foreigner is good enough. Not even close. Why this is the case is another matter, but the other 5 reasons pale in comparison or is a contributer to that one reason.
A spot reserved for a foreigner is a spot taken away from far more deserving bw players, on the basis that they happen to not be Korean. What is missing is why you view it worthwhile to reserve a foreigner only spot. "Cool" is not a coherent reason.
On September 19 2020 02:01 ...onmYwaY wrote: And years later we had MadCow(?), Draco, NonY, Ret, PJ, Legend and IdrA all taking the route through either SKT1, Sparkyz or Hexatron/eStro to obtain their licenses. I think Ret came closest with a ZvZ finals.
assem is the only foreigner to obtain his progaming license through the courage system. legionnaire got his via participating in a 512 man semi-pro tournament ran by MBCgame and getting top 8 in it. nazgul left korea before the system was implemented. idra and draco were given theirs via team recommendation. madcow got kicked out of korea before even having a chance (he wasn't that good to begin with). pj/lx i have no idea, but i'm guessing skt gave them team recommendation licenses.
We might have had both NonY and Ret in a major leauge if it was not for SC2 release. I had totally forgot about the NonY run to the finals... that was the PvT on Colosseum, right? Good times...
Assems run must have been impresseive as well... Then lest not forget Androides' win over Silent_Control, White-Ra over Stork, Mondragon over Reach and Savior... we had some good offline tournament wins.
PS. Blackman over Essay WCG2002... and a classic LT game vs. Boxer.. Hard to accept that we might never have another DS.
On September 19 2020 08:45 GTR wrote: assem is the only foreigner to obtain his progaming license through the courage system. legionnaire got his via participating in a 512 man semi-pro tournament ran by MBCgame and getting top 8 in it. nazgul left korea before the system was implemented. idra and draco were given theirs via team recommendation. madcow got kicked out of korea before even having a chance (he wasn't that good to begin with). pj/lx i have no idea, but i'm guessing skt gave them team recommendation licenses.
Awesome historical moments. Madcow got kicked out for starting fights in the team houses or what? lol
On September 19 2020 02:01 ...onmYwaY wrote: Lets run through some history… At the beginning of time we had [GG99]Slayer who qualified in an online tournament, went to Korea to collect the gold. Then we had Grrr… with a similar story being the first OSL champion. But let’s be honest, that will never ever happen again.
Next, we had KenKa, Elky, Maynard etc. and although Elky had some good runs he never won gold. After that we had the likes of Assem, Legionnare, Nazgul etc. but once KeSPA , PRO-licenses etc. was established none of them succeeded the route through Courage to obtain their licenses, right? I think they were all handed to them via Hexatron.
And years later we had MadCow(?), Draco, NonY, Ret, PJ, Legend and IdrA all taking the route through either SKT1, Sparkyz or Hexatron/eStro to obtain their licenses. I think Ret came closest with a ZvZ finals.
However, to sum it up. No non-Korean has ever obtained a PRO-license without a team backing. That is how hard that was. And I am pretty sure that ACS or ASL qualifiers are ever harder.
Maybe if Bonyth, eOn, TrutaCz. Dewalt could claw their way through ACS with a bit of luck? Scan, who I am pretty sure has a winning record vs. all non-Koreans came close but no cigar.
…or if Mondragon, Testie, Androide, sEn would have tried Courage back in the day?
ASL is another beast indeed. I do not think it is possible for any non-Korean to make it… unfortunately
Making into ASL Group Stage(Ro24) with first try(season, not qualifier) is very hard.
Also, playing on TR24 is a different atmosphere compare to other slow TR(high latency ping) and two different region players playing each other on ladder or custom games with lower tr still feel like 0.9x speed. The game is not lagging, it's not a distance problem idk what it's causing but it just does not feel like 1.0x speed game.
I don't see the point in having a short cut to the the RO24 only to get stomped.
No one (other than the korean pros who stayed,) really cares about Serral winning Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. Post Kespa Korean SC2 and BW are more of a reality show than a real competition.
On September 19 2020 14:04 Morbidius wrote: I don't see the point in having a short cut to the the RO24 only to get stomped.
No one (other than the korean pros who stayed,) really cares about Serral winning Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. Post Kespa Korean SC2 and BW are more of a reality show than a real competition.
What do you mean no one cares?
Serral's triumph over korean opposition at a world championship is probably the most noteworthy thing to happen in all of starcraft outside of korea in... since starcraft was released 22 years ago? If your opinion is that Korean SC2 degraded, and it's not serral (and reynor) bein a miraculous talent, then you are wrong. Serral would have dominated in any era with his current skillset.
Regional tournaments and championships foster growth. If Starcraft 1 had enough players, then tournaments should be held for Europe and North America exclusively, similar as has been done with Starcraft 2. That protects the competitive environment, guarantees TR24 low gameplay, and motivates players to train and compete to win fame and prizes (less so in sc1 than in sc2).
The foreign scene in brood war is a joke. Most of the tournaments that are run, Koreans can enter (HAY, jeez weekly, STPL), and if it's not Koreans, it's competition between guys in the balkan, russia, the west of the united states, and countries like peru and chile (BSL, the biggest foreign league). Games are never ran at tr24 low latency, sometimes you even have to play on TR8 or TR10. Not only does losing to koreans over and over in the very scarse oppurtunities must feel very demotivating to what little talent there is outside of korea, the high ping games literally changes the way the games are played, has impact on strategies, foreigners can't train muscle memory for control and micro because they play on a different turn rate every game, etc.
This leads to a situation where foreign players just can't get good enough playing outside of korea, even if they were fully comitted to the cause. And moving to korea to train for a a year or two before getting the necessary skills is just not realistic at this point.
On September 19 2020 14:04 Morbidius wrote: I don't see the point in having a short cut to the the RO24 only to get stomped.
No one (other than the korean pros who stayed,) really cares about Serral winning Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. Post Kespa Korean SC2 and BW are more of a reality show than a real competition.
What do you mean no one cares?
Serral's triumph over korean opposition at a world championship is probably the most noteworthy thing to happen in all of starcraft outside of korea in... since starcraft was released 22 years ago? If your opinion is that Korean SC2 degraded, and it's not serral (and reynor) bein a miraculous talent, then you are wrong. Serral would have dominated in any era with his current skillset.
Regional tournaments and championships foster growth. If Starcraft 1 had enough players, then tournaments should be held for Europe and North America exclusively, similar as has been done with Starcraft 2. That protects the competitive environment, guarantees TR24 low gameplay, and motivates players to train and compete to win fame and prizes (less so in sc1 than in sc2).
The foreign scene in brood war is a joke. Most of the tournaments that are run, Koreans can enter (HAY, jeez weekly, STPL), and if it's not Koreans, it's competition between guys in the balkan, russia, the west of the united states, and countries like peru and chile (BSL, the biggest foreign league). Games are never ran at tr24 low latency, sometimes you even have to play on TR8 or TR10. Not only does losing to koreans over and over in the very scarse oppurtunities must feel very demotivating to what little talent there is outside of korea, the high ping games literally changes the way the games are played, has impact on strategies, foreigners can't train muscle memory for control and micro because they play on a different turn rate every game, etc.
This leads to a situation where foreign players just can't get good enough playing outside of korea, even if they were fully comitted to the cause. And moving to korea to train for a a year or two before getting the necessary skills is just not realistic at this point.
What i mean by no one cares is that no one cares. And you don't know anything about Starcraft if you think Serral would have dominated SC2 if kespa didn't collapse..Hint: He did play, but he was trash for all those years, took a huge balance shift and Korean skills hitting a plateau before he could put in any remarkable result. Watch his games in early 2018 against Classic and Maru to see how Serral fared against top competition in a non Zerg favored meta.
On September 19 2020 14:04 Morbidius wrote: I don't see the point in having a short cut to the the RO24 only to get stomped.
No one (other than the korean pros who stayed,) really cares about Serral winning Blizzcon and GSL vs the World. Post Kespa Korean SC2 and BW are more of a reality show than a real competition.
What do you mean no one cares?
Serral's triumph over korean opposition at a world championship is probably the most noteworthy thing to happen in all of starcraft outside of korea in... since starcraft was released 22 years ago? If your opinion is that Korean SC2 degraded, and it's not serral (and reynor) bein a miraculous talent, then you are wrong. Serral would have dominated in any era with his current skillset.
Regional tournaments and championships foster growth. If Starcraft 1 had enough players, then tournaments should be held for Europe and North America exclusively, similar as has been done with Starcraft 2. That protects the competitive environment, guarantees TR24 low gameplay, and motivates players to train and compete to win fame and prizes (less so in sc1 than in sc2).
The foreign scene in brood war is a joke. Most of the tournaments that are run, Koreans can enter (HAY, jeez weekly, STPL), and if it's not Koreans, it's competition between guys in the balkan, russia, the west of the united states, and countries like peru and chile (BSL, the biggest foreign league). Games are never ran at tr24 low latency, sometimes you even have to play on TR8 or TR10. Not only does losing to koreans over and over in the very scarse oppurtunities must feel very demotivating to what little talent there is outside of korea, the high ping games literally changes the way the games are played, has impact on strategies, foreigners can't train muscle memory for control and micro because they play on a different turn rate every game, etc.
This leads to a situation where foreign players just can't get good enough playing outside of korea, even if they were fully comitted to the cause. And moving to korea to train for a a year or two before getting the necessary skills is just not realistic at this point.
What i mean by no one cares is that no one cares. And you don't know anything about Starcraft if you think Serral would have dominated SC2 if kespa didn't collapse..Hint: He did play, but he was trash for all those years, took a huge balance shift and Korean skills hitting a plateau before he could put in any remarkable result. Watch his games in early 2018 against Classic and Maru to see how Serral fared against top competition in a non Zerg favored meta.
I'm kind of sad you replied and I feel obliged to respond in a thread that's about foreign brood war. Serral was in high school untill he went full-time in september of 2017. He was also a teenager in all those years he competed leading up to him becoming 'the finnish phenom'. His skills didn't fully develop until I would say - 2018.
February 2018, 5 months after becoming a fulltime SC2 pro: 5-0's his group, dominates rogue, impact, zest, trap, before falling to classic in the semi final.
Later that year (2018), he wins blizzcon for the first time, defeating all the koreans in his path. The only balance change between the earlier games and blizzcon was the seeker missile nerf, as well as zerg dropperlords being moved to lair tech(Zerg nerf). (+ Viking hp increase, marauder 1 shot instead of 2 (making them better vs ultras). This happend before he won his tournaments vs korean competition.
2018 in general was not a Zerg favored meta, Maru won 3 GSL's that year and no zerg made it to the final in Korea GSL's, or Super tournament. Serral won 3 WCS Events, GSL vs the World and the blizzcon 2018 finals.
Now you argueing that Kespa's falling made the skill level worse... that is the least stupid thing you have said so far. While in absolute skill, players from 2018, 2019, and 2020, are definitely better players than kespa players were in the earlier years of 2012-2015..
You could argue that with proleague, team houses, and active coaching staff, Korean's starcraft 2 level would have increased more than it did without those things, but I don't think that really matters. All the korean pros that stayed active had been training in team house environments for more than 10 years, and had seen succes in both sc, and sc2, both during the kespa era and after that. These players know very well how to train, know how to prepare for events, and they still have the advantadge of training on the most competitive ladder that exists in SC2 (Korea.) Serral never went to Korea to train on the ladder, and still kept up and outskilled all of these other players that already were very dominant even during the kespa times (Innovation, soO) etc.
So yeah, people do care. And you are the one that knows nothing about SC2. (And I would bet broodwar, too.)
On September 19 2020 08:45 GTR wrote: assem is the only foreigner to obtain his progaming license through the courage system. legionnaire got his via participating in a 512 man semi-pro tournament ran by MBCgame and getting top 8 in it. nazgul left korea before the system was implemented. idra and draco were given theirs via team recommendation. madcow got kicked out of korea before even having a chance (he wasn't that good to begin with). pj/lx i have no idea, but i'm guessing skt gave them team recommendation licenses.
Awesome historical moments. Madcow got kicked out for starting fights in the team houses or what? lol
I completely forgot about this but I believe you're right. It's hilarious how unhinged he was :D
It was Suncow, and he stayed at the Siz house where he started several fights, I also recall there being some kind of hygiene problems.. (all of the Koreans thought he smelled awful).
On September 19 2020 19:00 Avi-Love wrote: It was Suncow, and he stayed at the Siz house where he started several fights, I also recall there being some kind of hygiene problems.. (all of the Koreans thought he smelled awful).
On September 19 2020 19:00 Avi-Love wrote: It was Suncow, and he stayed at the Siz house where he started several fights, I also recall there being some kind of hygiene problems.. (all of the Koreans thought he smelled awful).
funnily enough, I think he's in jail now or was in jail in the recent past
If Scarlet can pull off the impossible feat of learning bw and qualifying for a league within a year, then we have to change some of our assumptions for why we aren't at the top of competitive sc.
Seems like her psychology and drive are pushing her success faster than her (incredible) talent.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Seems like the vague generalizations can be dismissed with, "this is a game of people and THAT person for X reasons couldn't make it", all the blanket assumptions are crumpled up in the waste-bin.
It isn't race, it isn't place, it is person.
It would be really nice to have a regional starcraft ladder tour run by Blizzard+Afreeca, to make it through this damn pandemic. There are so many talented latin, european, russian-baltic-slavic gamers and an entire generation of digital natives who we could entice into our game. Viewership is up. Comeon Blizzard, invite ASL to run an international tournament based upon your existing ladder structure. Incase you haven't noticed, you made the best game in history and we will still be here in 10 years. Grow this motha F'a.
Also, Madcow ??... I remember that guy from Channel -x17 days on the forums ..... He went to korea? LOL.
(edit, also Scan is playing KCM right now after posting in this thread earlier. Nutts)
Someone who knows their BW history better than me can confirm/deny but I think in some of the very early OSLs they had a similar arrangement where they had a special qualifier for foreigners to join the OSL. I’m pretty sure Asmodey made his only OSL this way. So there is precedent. Although this would’ve been back in early 2000s when foreigners could still respectably compete with Koreans.
On September 19 2020 19:29 AttackZerg wrote: If Scarlet can pull off the impossible feat of learning bw and qualifying for a league within a year, then we have to change some of our assumptions for why we aren't at the top of competitive sc.
Seems like her psychology and drive are pushing her success faster than her (incredible) talent.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Seems like the vague generalizations can be dismissed with, "this is a game of people and THAT person for X reasons couldn't make it", all the blanket assumptions are crumpled up in the waste-bin.
It isn't race, it isn't place, it is person.
It would be really nice to have a regional starcraft ladder tour run by Blizzard+Afreeca, to make it through this damn pandemic. There are so many talented latin, european, russian-baltic-slavic gamers and an entire generation of digital natives who we could entice into our game. Viewership is up. Comeon Blizzard, invite ASL to run an international tournament based upon your existing ladder structure. Incase you haven't noticed, you made the best game in history and we will still be here in 10 years. Grow this motha F'a.
Also, Madcow ??... I remember that guy from Channel -x17 days on the forums ..... He went to korea? LOL.
(edit, also Scan is playing KCM right now after posting in this thread earlier. Nutts)
Scarlett has already said that when she moves back to canada finding low latency games versus good players will be way more difficult. She expects her improving to slow. So it is the person, but it's also the place.
Koreans built the blueprints of how bw is played, they are also still the ones developing it. Without actually understanding the korean language properly, there is not much chance for foreigners to get really good.
There is also the issue of games that aren't 100% optimal in terms of turn rate and latency overall. All the tryhard games from Koreans are at the most optimal TR and Latency.
Lastly, their scene is much bigger. They actually get to play in an environment in which they can improve and develop over time. If you are trying to improve one of your matchups by planning builds and ideas, you actually can do that quite effectively in the korean environment. If I would like to do that in my situation, I wouldn't get to use almost any of it as my first game on the ladder would be vs Kwark and his nexus first all in or something of that nature..
Anyway, I think many foreigners that play the game properly are doing quite good in spite of the situation that they are in.
On September 19 2020 19:29 AttackZerg wrote: If Scarlet can pull off the impossible feat of learning bw and qualifying for a league within a year, then we have to change some of our assumptions for why we aren't at the top of competitive sc.
Seems like her psychology and drive are pushing her success faster than her (incredible) talent.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Seems like the vague generalizations can be dismissed with, "this is a game of people and THAT person for X reasons couldn't make it", all the blanket assumptions are crumpled up in the waste-bin.
It isn't race, it isn't place, it is person.
It would be really nice to have a regional starcraft ladder tour run by Blizzard+Afreeca, to make it through this damn pandemic. There are so many talented latin, european, russian-baltic-slavic gamers and an entire generation of digital natives who we could entice into our game. Viewership is up. Comeon Blizzard, invite ASL to run an international tournament based upon your existing ladder structure. Incase you haven't noticed, you made the best game in history and we will still be here in 10 years. Grow this motha F'a.
Also, Madcow ??... I remember that guy from Channel -x17 days on the forums ..... He went to korea? LOL.
(edit, also Scan is playing KCM right now after posting in this thread earlier. Nutts)
Scarlett has already said that when she moves back to canada finding low latency games versus good players will be way more difficult. She expects her improving to slow. So it is the person, but it's also the place.
Yes, I agree. I posted her success as compared to Serrals as counter points to old arguments.
She did rise to a very high ability coming from Canada in sc2, which has or had the same disadvantages of being on the wrong servers and being separate from the Mecca.
Serral disproved 22~ years of reasons why we aren't near the top and it has nothing to do with access to korea and now Scarlet is doing the opposite, proving that being immersed in korean gaming and having access to the servers and pro's in the right hands, causes meteoric rises.
Artosis lives in Korea and has access to the servers and pro's in ages, so... ?
For the past few years he plays ASL qualifilers and has no chance at all, not even close. He might beat some unkown korean from time to time, but as soon as he has to play vs some semi-decent korean he gots hummiliated, not even a close games.
Not only at ASL qualifilers, but same is also on ladder. When he faces some semi top amateur, it gets ugly, no even close. Not worth mentioning if he faces top amateurs or for God sake pros
Not get me wrong, i am rooting for him, (as for scarlett and every other forigner), but the gap is just way too big. Like me beating my brother at 100m swimming and the go against Phelps 100m butterfly or what ever :D
P.S. Look what happened with Bisu this year, we are talking about Eonzerg, Trutacz, etc... ha-ha come on
Artosis hasn't been playing toward being a pro gamer for years, being a competitive player and caster has been his thing. He went to korea and got a job as an e-journalist for estro and turned that into a casting career. Last time I checked, he has been working non-stop for 10 years on sc2 on top of everything else.
The artosis example would be what I call "Player, not place". Artosis not becoming a top 5 player in korea doesn't relate to Serral becoming the best Zerg in the world, without living in korea and it doesn't change the fact, that a talented person like Scarlett can pick up the game and make incredible progress in no time. Or that Scarlett, Special and Astrea have all achieved GSL placement despite originating in countries that are not korea.
What you quoted was an example where two people defy the notion that "You must be in korea" and Scarlett is a special example because she is exceeding at BW BECAUSE she lives in korea for sc2. Like I said, all the old assumptions don't work anymore. It is more complicated.
Also, Scarlett lives in a pro gaming house as a pro gamer with pro gamers playing professionally, Artosis lives in his own house with his family and has multiple jobs. Very unfair example.
Pc bang culture & environment in Korea undoubtedly led to them advancing more than foreigners. SC2 was a fresh start with many players coming from other RTS games, so it's no wonder there are many foreign pros compared to BW. Why do all the tech gurus go to Silicone Valley? Because that's where the work is. Why do prospective peo gamers go to South Korea? Because that's where the scene is established.
On September 20 2020 06:02 psyCrowe wrote: Pc bang culture & environment in Korea undoubtedly led to them advancing more than foreigners. SC2 was a fresh start with many players coming from other RTS games, so it's no wonder there are many foreign pros compared to BW. Why do all the tech gurus go to Silicone Valley? Because that's where the work is. Why do prospective peo gamers go to South Korea? Because that's where the scene is established.
Seems like the best players, or at least 3 of them, are in Europe in sc2, which had the same exact korean dominance that bw had, and unlike bw, they dominated from the get go, we had non-korean champions at the beginning of bw.
They overcame the same culture dominance that we never did in bw.
I live in silicon valley, that is where tech guru's are fleeing by the 10's of thousands.
Edit = I lived in Silicon Valley. Now I'm inland 80 miles.
Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
On September 20 2020 06:02 psyCrowe wrote: Pc bang culture & environment in Korea undoubtedly led to them advancing more than foreigners. SC2 was a fresh start with many players coming from other RTS games, so it's no wonder there are many foreign pros compared to BW. Why do all the tech gurus go to Silicone Valley? Because that's where the work is. Why do prospective peo gamers go to South Korea? Because that's where the scene is established.
i agree with this the most. Anyone who is interested about listening to SC2 scene in Korea, watch this 4 parts of interview video. There's english sub.
I think the biggest negative impact in korea was in 2016 where proleague ended and a lot of pro teams disbanded+players quitting the game. And foreign sc2 scene is continuing to get bigger.
On September 20 2020 06:36 ...onmYwaY wrote: Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
Programmer.. still calls it in 2020 lol. Anyways, 12H a day practice, few BSL, Korean ladder in Korea won't help them to get a spot for ASTL. First, you need to study about korean society and their game culture. Coaches don't know new names players. They won't pick foreign players over Korean because 1) language barrier 2) out of meta trend 3) apmwise. Yoon started the competitive scene before me(i was doing my military service) and he was still not chosen for ASTL due to lack of stream activity, no connection with progamers. Yoon and i are close friends. He said he was mentally sick because he thought he would get drafted for ASTL and keep practicing his ladder and stayed on top5 or so.
He finally did something in ACS, but lost first 2 of his ASL qualifiers, used his ACS winner ticket(seeded for ASL qualifier final round) to make it into ASL group stage(ro24) with his 3rd try. It is extremely hard to qualify for ASL.
Yabsab is also a strong zerg who made into ACS semifinal stage, and he was also about to qualify for ASL, but he faced vs yoon(his 3rd try with seeded ticket) and lost to yoon 2-1. I wonder how the result might change if yabsab was in a spot in the group stage since his zvp is much more stronger than yoon imo.
On September 19 2020 20:18 RowdierBob wrote: Someone who knows there BW history better than me can confirm/deny but I think in some of the very early OSLs they had a similar arrangement where they had a special qualifier for foreigners to join the OSL. I’m pretty sure Asmodey made his only OSL this way. So there is precedent. Although this would’ve been back in early 2000s when foreigners could still respectably compete with Koreans.
they had an online foreigners only qualifier for one spot in the osl. they never did that again because it was just too easy to cheat a free flight/accomodation to korea and when you have the infrastructure to run offline qualifiers, then why not keep it that way.
On September 20 2020 06:36 ...onmYwaY wrote: Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
Programmer.. still calls it in 2020 lol. Anyways, 12H a day practice, few BSL, Korean ladder in Korea won't help them to get a spot for ASTL. First, you need to study about korean society and their game culture. Coaches don't know new names players. They won't pick foreign players over Korean because 1) language barrier 2) out of meta trend 3) apmwise. Yoon started the competitive scene before me(i was doing my military service) and he was still not chosen for ASTL due to lack of stream activity, no connection with progamers. Yoon and i are close friends. He said he was mentally sick because he thought he would get drafted for ASTL and keep practicing his ladder and stayed on top5 or so.
He finally did something in ACS, but lost first 2 of his ASL qualifiers, used his ACS winner ticket(seeded for ASL qualifier final round) to make it into ASL group stage(ro24) with his 3rd try. It is extremely hard to qualify for ASL.
Yabsab is also a strong zerg who made into ACS semifinal stage, and he was also about to qualify for ASL, but he faced vs yoon(his 3rd try with seeded ticket) and lost to yoon 2-1. I wonder how the result might change if yabsab was in a spot in the group stage since his zvp is much more stronger than yoon imo.
Scan the progamer police Apple does not acknowledge progamers as a word (writing of an IPhone) let’s do it right; Pro Gamers. However, I do not think that it is unfair to call the likes of Rain, Effort, Last, Jaedong and the rest that she has been teaming up with in BJ Destruction pro-gamers.
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went financially independent, moved with his family to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
Next category, since I already referenced early 20s’ Oya let’s say he wins BSL10... and 11-12. Goes full commit 12H days, move to Korea and get 3-6 months practice. Would it be unreasonable to reach ACS RO8? And in terms of skill reach ASTL? Even if the coaches won’t pick him based on language?
It’s all speculation and we will probably never find out.
My point is, going to extremes, is that this game is so freaking hard that for any non-Korean to go to Korea and make it into a premier tournament is on the verge of impossible.
I have seen some of foreign players registered for the ASL qualies.
I think it will be very nice to see one of the foreigners competing in offline against koreans. It sounds stupid but I am willing to donate to send the best foreigner (Dewalt, Bonyth) for the ASL or ACS qualification. Even if they dont have much chance to qualify either tourneys, it would be nice to have a player representing the foreign scene since I will have someone to really support and rooting for. I enjoy watching something when I am rooting for a particular team or a player.
It's out of topic, but I just feel like it once in a time.
On September 20 2020 06:36 ...onmYwaY wrote: Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
Programmer.. still calls it in 2020 lol. Anyways, 12H a day practice, few BSL, Korean ladder in Korea won't help them to get a spot for ASTL. First, you need to study about korean society and their game culture. Coaches don't know new names players. They won't pick foreign players over Korean because 1) language barrier 2) out of meta trend 3) apmwise. Yoon started the competitive scene before me(i was doing my military service) and he was still not chosen for ASTL due to lack of stream activity, no connection with progamers. Yoon and i are close friends. He said he was mentally sick because he thought he would get drafted for ASTL and keep practicing his ladder and stayed on top5 or so.
He finally did something in ACS, but lost first 2 of his ASL qualifiers, used his ACS winner ticket(seeded for ASL qualifier final round) to make it into ASL group stage(ro24) with his 3rd try. It is extremely hard to qualify for ASL.
Yabsab is also a strong zerg who made into ACS semifinal stage, and he was also about to qualify for ASL, but he faced vs yoon(his 3rd try with seeded ticket) and lost to yoon 2-1. I wonder how the result might change if yabsab was in a spot in the group stage since his zvp is much more stronger than yoon imo.
Scan the progamer police I really like you but stop. I do not think that it is unfair to call the likes of Rain, Effort, Last, Jaedong and the rest that she has been teaming up with in BJ Destruction progamers. Or do you disagree?
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
Next category, since I already referenced early 20s’ Oya let’s say he wins BSL10... and 11-12. Goes full commit 12H days, move to Korea and get 3-6 months practice. Would it be unreasonable to reach ACS RO8? And in terms of skill reach ASTL? Even if the coaches won’t pick him based on language?
It’s all speculation and we will probably never find out.
They can, but it is not like Koreans are not training. They are training more than foreigners. Most foreigners have jobs and they play sc for their hobby, but many Korean amateurs who try to qualify for ACS and ASL practice more than 12h a day just to be successful in sc scene. Koreans are more desperate than foreigners. Nothing is impossible though, but I dont see any chance of foreigners qualifying ASL or ACS in near future unless dewalt or bonyth move to Korea and practice like other koreans
On September 20 2020 06:36 ...onmYwaY wrote: Age is also a big factor. Since Korea is a much larger scene pro players in their late 20s’ and 30s’ can actually support themselves by streaming. And younger, less experienced players get to play in that massive pool of players TR24 all day.
Most successful non-Koreans are in their early 30s’ with jobs and families to support. There is just no way to compete. Look at Oya for example, he is like early 20s’ and still lives with his mom. How should anyone in their 30s’ be able to compete with that development? Give Oya 2 kids and a full time job and he will be a 1900 player sporting 5 games a week.
The chosen one that could make it to Korea should either be... Financially independent, already top 5 non-Korean move to Korea and do the 12H day practice, befriend CadenZie and her programmer friends and get all that coaching. Maybe 12 months in we could see them reach a RO24 spot.
Or... early 20s’, live close to Russia and Poland to get that practice. Play 12H day, crush a few BSL, move to Korea and blast that ladder for 3-6 months. And maybe reach an ASTL spot or RO8 ACS.
OH... did I say that StarCraft is the hardest game in the world? And before some one begin with comparisons (this game is faster! This game is more this and that!). Look... just the competition alone is enough to make StarCraft the hardest game in the world. Not a few but many people have invested their entire teen and adult life to this game, for over 20 years(!). And on top of that it’s massively hard in terms of multitask, speed, timing and strategy. Lastly it’s so unforgiving at times... I both love and hate this game. And I will never stop playing, no other game can compete.
Programmer.. still calls it in 2020 lol. Anyways, 12H a day practice, few BSL, Korean ladder in Korea won't help them to get a spot for ASTL. First, you need to study about korean society and their game culture. Coaches don't know new names players. They won't pick foreign players over Korean because 1) language barrier 2) out of meta trend 3) apmwise. Yoon started the competitive scene before me(i was doing my military service) and he was still not chosen for ASTL due to lack of stream activity, no connection with progamers. Yoon and i are close friends. He said he was mentally sick because he thought he would get drafted for ASTL and keep practicing his ladder and stayed on top5 or so.
He finally did something in ACS, but lost first 2 of his ASL qualifiers, used his ACS winner ticket(seeded for ASL qualifier final round) to make it into ASL group stage(ro24) with his 3rd try. It is extremely hard to qualify for ASL.
Yabsab is also a strong zerg who made into ACS semifinal stage, and he was also about to qualify for ASL, but he faced vs yoon(his 3rd try with seeded ticket) and lost to yoon 2-1. I wonder how the result might change if yabsab was in a spot in the group stage since his zvp is much more stronger than yoon imo.
Scan the progamer police I really like you but stop. I do not think that it is unfair to call the likes of Rain, Effort, Last, Jaedong and the rest that she has been teaming up with in BJ Destruction progamers. Or do you disagree?
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
Next category, since I already referenced early 20s’ Oya let’s say he wins BSL10... and 11-12. Goes full commit 12H days, move to Korea and get 3-6 months practice. Would it be unreasonable to reach ACS RO8? And in terms of skill reach ASTL? Even if the coaches won’t pick him based on language?
It’s all speculation and we will probably never find out.
They can, but it is not like Koreans are not training. They are training more than foreigners. Most foreigners have jobs and they play sc for their hobby, but many Korean amateurs who try to qualify for ACS and ASL practice more than 12h a day just to be successful in sc scene. Koreans are more desperate than foreigners. Nothing is impossible though, but I dont see any chance of foreigners qualifying ASL or ACS in near future unless dewalt or bonyth move to Korea and practice like other koreans
Lets run another aspect... there are many sides to the mental game. But let’s say that we have the top 1 non-Korean which smashes the global scene over and over. That should give a lot of confidence going into any match.
Skill wise that would compare to a mid-tier competitive Korean that qualifies a few rounds in ACS and ASL qualifiers. However, the Korean would get toyed by better players over and over and sit like top 100 in his own country. That’s not a receipt for a lot of confidence.
I would say the mind game might go to the non-Korean in that instance.
The non-Korean would get his feet back on the earth once he starts play in the Korean scene but might still get that boost in confidence once he takes down another non-Korean tournament.
StarCraft might be even harder mentally to keep running year after year with very little to none payback in terms of success. 99% would loose their minds half way.
One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
Sponsor AfreecaTV! <3 I think AfreecaTV’s employee Char(?) is lurking around this forum. PM him or ask Artosis for contact info.
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
You should talk about that with either Rus_Brain or AfreecaTVChar, they might help you
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
It would probably be better to split $100k over 4-5 events rather than one. Even a $10k prize pool for a tournament is ridiculously massive for Brood War.
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
If you successfully managed to fund an event looking forward to watch it !
I feel like you didn't fully understand my explanation. I'll answer nicely each for you.
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went financially independent, moved with his family to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
First, Cadenzie is a woman, competing vs other female SC streamers and BJ destruction war had rules like few matches (female vs female) in BoX series match. I don't know how much she got coaching lessons, but it is not much as you think.
Let's hit the reality. Why would Rain, Flash, Bisu, or any other top level players coach for top level foreign players? I already explain in the beginning that you must understand about the Korean society and their game culture. Also, they don't have much benefits getting out of the coaching lessons nor staying in a same place/room with foreign players. Look, they don't coach any top amateur players who are having a dream to succeed in ASL and ASTL. Luckily, Larva took care of Soma and did a lot of activities together and he is kind of a lucky case to become a top level player in the scene.
Next category, since I already referenced early 20s’ Oya let’s say he wins BSL10... and 11-12. Goes full commit 12H days, move to Korea and get 3-6 months practice. Would it be unreasonable to reach ACS RO8? And in terms of skill reach ASTL? Even if the coaches won’t pick him based on language?
There's no ACS RO8. Only 4 players qualify and start at semifinal. Hitting 2600++ on ladder like a beast 50-1 stats doesn't help. He has no offline stage experience, YES language barrier with Korean players. Midas is currently at the lowest rank(#69) in sponbbang ranking and he can still win vs any low tier players. Look at the result in ASL Qualifiers Midas(ASTL coach) vs Motive(ASTL player). Midas won the game. Midas does not play SC, he ONLY commits to play because there's tournaments.
There's also Chinese players out there in Korean ladder and Mihu is the guy who hits 2600++ mmr easily, but he struggled winning his game vs Midas. liquipedia.net
Also, Boxer doesn't play SC much, everyone probably thinks he's like out of S rank on ladder, but look. He is at 2353MMR 39-19 stats. If you don't believe, he uses BoxerTV on ladder and streams on Twitch with his SKT team shared account or so.
There's also Chinese players out there in Korean ladder and Mihu is the guy who hits 2600++ mmr easily, but he struggled winning his game vs Midas. liquipedia.net
Hmm the link shows he lost 4-2? That means he didn't struggle winning but lost?
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went financially independent, moved with his family to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
First, Cadenzie is a woman, competing vs other female SC streamers and BJ destruction war had rules like few matches (female vs female) in BoX series match. I don't know how much she got coaching lessons, but it is not much as you think.
Let's hit the reality. Why would Rain, Flash, Bisu, or any other top level players coach for top level foreign players? I already explain in the beginning that you must understand about the Korean society and their game culture. Also, they don't have much benefits getting out of the coaching lessons nor staying in a same place/room with foreign players. Look, they don't coach any top amateur players who are having a dream to succeed in ASL and ASTL. Luckily, Larva took care of Soma and did a lot of activities together and he is kind of a lucky case to become a top level player in the scene.
Next category, since I already referenced early 20s’ Oya let’s say he wins BSL10... and 11-12. Goes full commit 12H days, move to Korea and get 3-6 months practice. Would it be unreasonable to reach ACS RO8? And in terms of skill reach ASTL? Even if the coaches won’t pick him based on language?
There's no ACS RO8. Only 4 players qualify and start at semifinal. Hitting 2600++ on ladder like a beast 50-1 stats doesn't help. He has no offline stage experience, YES language barrier with Korean players. Midas is currently at the lowest rank(#69) in sponbbang ranking and he can still win vs any low tier players. Look at the result in ASL Qualifiers Midas(ASTL coach) vs Motive(ASTL player). Midas won the game. Midas does not play SC, he ONLY commits to play because there's tournaments.
There's also Chinese players out there in Korean ladder and Mihu is the guy who hits 2600++ mmr easily, but he struggled winning his game vs Midas. liquipedia.net
Also, Boxer doesn't play SC much, everyone probably thinks he's like out of S rank on ladder, but look. He is at 2353MMR 39-19 stats. If you don't believe, he uses BoxerTV on ladder and streams on Twitch with his SKT team shared account or so.
Ladder means nothing in Korean competitive scene.
Well... I never even proposed that as a reality at all :O All I was saying is that "this and that need to happen if we would ever have a non-Korean competing in offline Korean tournaments". And if you read my post #3 you will see that I do point out Korean culture as a big part of that (i.e. live in Korea and speak the language, like Grrr... and Elky did).
And... since you did the job to put all into the real perspective I think we can all agree that we will never ever have a non-Korean competing in ASL.
But remember, Mondragon beat Reach in 2005 (when Reach was still top-tier, 2nd place MSL that year) and Savior at WCG 2007 (the same year he won OSL), White-Ra beat Stork, also 2007 and Androide took down Silent_Control 2005. All that while the Brood War scene was as healthy as ever, team houses and all. The force is strong within us
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went financially independent, moved with his family to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
I bolded the important parts. Bonyth has a stable job, a wife and a baby. Which responsible adult would move to korea to chase the progaming dream in his situation? None i think.
There's also Chinese players out there in Korean ladder and Mihu is the guy who hits 2600++ mmr easily, but he struggled winning his game vs Midas. liquipedia.net
Hmm the link shows he lost 4-2? That means he didn't struggle winning but lost?
Midas 4-2 Mihu, I was pointing out Mihu is/was at 2600mmr at the period of time, I expected Mihu would take down old expros, but he couldn't. He as mihu I'm saying.
Well... what candidates do we have then? For the first group... 30s’ and top non-korean. So if Bonyth went financially independent, moved with his family to Korea, practice 12H a day, got coaching from Rain and stayed like that for 12 months. Would ASL RO24 be unreasonable?
I bolded the important parts. Bonyth has a stable job, a wife and a baby. Which responsible adult would move to korea to chase the progaming dream in his situation? None i think.
I never said it. Please, read the posts... I don’t think he will be financially independent either or get coaching from Rain. Listen, I just painted made up scenarios what would have to happen if we would ever have him, or any other top non-Korean player reach ASL. In other words, that will never happen.
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
You would single handedly be able to lay the foundation for a new generation of bw.
If I get a 2020 wish. It is this.
Can someone who knows and does things - please contact this person?
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
Doing it with Afreeca would be exciting. Could have some invites for like Bonyth, some qualifier spots. The korean top players would enter and play their A-game for the money of a tournament.
Right now people entering korea has to do 2 weeks of quarantine. But if a thing like this is planned ahead for perhaps spring 2021 maybe things look differently. Would also need to check with our foreign top players. I like to think that most of them would like to go, but there's a risk they have a life outside broodwar standing in the way.
For organising it online, talk to Rus_brain and Zzzero about what's needed. Player contacts, competent casters, making livegames as lagfree as possible. It could be a BSL with bigger bucks, open for koreans. BSL is a smooth example of it all, live right now if you're not watching=).
If it's a online tournament I'd also recommend spreading it into more than one tournament, one final tournament with big bang bucks.
But remember, Mondragon beat Reach in 2005 (when Reach was still top-tier, 2nd place MSL that year) and Savior at WCG 2007 (the same year he won OSL), White-Ra beat Stork, also 2007 and Androide took down Silent_Control 2005. All that while the Brood War scene was as healthy as ever, team houses and all. The force is strong within us
that's good to know, but winning only one match is not enough. They need to achieve something more better than winning one match. When commentators are analyzing players' stats, history, and career, we don't see any career behind.
But remember, Mondragon beat Reach in 2005 (when Reach was still top-tier, 2nd place MSL that year) and Savior at WCG 2007 (the same year he won OSL), White-Ra beat Stork, also 2007 and Androide took down Silent_Control 2005. All that while the Brood War scene was as healthy as ever, team houses and all. The force is strong within us
that's good to know, but winning only one match is not enough. They need to achieve something more better than winning one match. When commentators are analyzing players' stats, history, and career, we don't see any career behind.
I've so much respect for you and your comments Scan, I hope we are not arguing about something? Because from what I am seeing, we are saying the same thing. It is nearly impossible for a non-Korean to make it. You are probably the best hope for an English-speaking gamer to make it in premier tournaments (although I met MiSo on the ladder and he was not too bad either).
However, if we go back and look at some history... PJ actually knocked out Savior of WCG2007 2-1. Androide knocked out Silent_Control 2-0. White-Ra had Stork down 3-1 WCG2007 (incl. tie-breakers; even if it was slightly questioned if Stork actually threw a few games to avoid another Korean in the Final bracket). And perhaps there are more games that I do not recall from the top of my head. All these were offline matches in one of the largest tournaments. These games, and all the other wins proove that it would not be the first time a non-Korean could compete with the elite. Not saying anything about today though.
On September 21 2020 05:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Why are you acting like Scan counts as a foreigner? Just because he happens to be talking on TL.
Anyways, when your examples are from 13 years ago, it's pretty safe to say that no foreigner will be able to qualify "legitimately" for ASL.
I have never acted like Scan counts as a "foreigner", I have not even mentioned that word. What makes you draw that conclusion?
Well... how many offline tournaments with a mix between Koreans and non-Koreans have we had the last 13 years? Please...
I've said 10000-times that we most freaking likley will never have a non-Korean in a premier tournament and that it would take more than is even realistic to reach that! Look at post #3,#5, #40, #43 #51, #54, #60... my god... how is it possible to say anything more clear? My god...
On September 21 2020 05:47 asel wrote: Throwin: Let's be clear. It wasn't slightly questioned whether Stork threw these games. It was absolutely certain he lost on purpose.
What? You're saying Stork match fixed in WCG back in the day vs White-Ra? Are you serious? lol
On September 21 2020 05:47 asel wrote: Throwin: Let's be clear. It wasn't slightly questioned whether Stork threw these games. It was absolutely certain he lost on purpose.
What? You're saying Stork match fixed in WCG back in the day vs White-Ra? Are you serious? lol
i thought the whole affair was more funny than anything else tbh.
the biggest concern right now are the corona imposed quarantine weeks which turns a potential 5 day trip (talking about offline qualifiers) into a 4 week one which makes preparing way harder and also limits your overall flexibility. because i qualified for RCG2020 and i most likely need to spend about 21 of my holidays for it, i just dont have enough days left to try ASL again this year (like i did last year with ASL8)
On September 21 2020 05:47 asel wrote: Throwin: Let's be clear. It wasn't slightly questioned whether Stork threw these games. It was absolutely certain he lost on purpose.
What? You're saying Stork match fixed in WCG back in the day vs White-Ra? Are you serious? lol
Yes? Koreans routinely threw games in group play so they wouldn't have to knock each other out in the tournament until the semifinals/finals.
However, if we go back and look at some history... PJ actually knocked out Savior of WCG2007 2-1. Androide knocked out Silent_Control 2-0. White-Ra had Stork down 3-1 WCG2007 (incl. tie-breakers; even if it was slightly questioned if Stork actually threw a few games to avoid another Korean in the Final bracket). And perhaps there are more games that I do not recall from the top of my head. All these were offline matches in one of the largest tournaments. These games, and all the other wins proove that it would not be the first time a non-Korean could compete with the elite. Not saying anything about today though.
Even if it's still nearly impossible.
In 2007 Mondragon beat Savior in the group stage. He took a game off Reach in some event and beat Zeus 3-0. Advocate took a game off Jaedong (2009 I think?). Other than that, you would have to go back to like 2001 to find non-korean wins. Maybe Fisheye in 2003 won something.
I think the biggest hurdle to close the skill gap is financially and the language barrier. Tbh there's not much financial incentive for a foreigner to dedicate most of his time to BW unless that person is already in a good financial position.
Language barrier is also another big factor, you really need to speak Korean to understand the highest level of gameplay/tactics of the pros. BW is such a deep game that is still constantly changing and not knowing the language just puts you behind.
Unfortunately without fulfilling the 2 criteria it will be a long road if a foreigner were to make it to ASL.
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
Sounds like you're wanting to fund a new TSL. Teamliquid has run tournaments in the past.
On September 21 2020 05:47 asel wrote: Throwin: Let's be clear. It wasn't slightly questioned whether Stork threw these games. It was absolutely certain he lost on purpose.
What? You're saying Stork match fixed in WCG back in the day vs White-Ra? Are you serious? lol
Yes? Koreans routinely threw games in group play so they wouldn't have to knock each other out in the tournament until the semifinals/finals.
Why would "throwing games" not be as much of an an issue back then with Koreans doing it in WCG, as it was with other players actual match fixing? And how is it proven? How can you 100% say that Stork threw the games vs White-Ra just so they "wouldn't knock each other out of the tournament", for what? Korean Pride?
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
There's a lot of dormant SC1 players (retired ones, SC2 players etc). I think an online series would revive a lot of interest in the game.
Like a 5K first place prize should be enough to garner enough interest.
Mixing koreans with foreigners is not that great of an idea unless it's a team game (where each team gets a korean pro or smth like that).
If you want to get some money back on your investment, a series (like ESL is for SC2) is probably better than a one-off.
I feel like foreigners in their peak potential, Draco was the best in his prime and had the most potential, but who's to say.... I have a feeling Scarlett will continue to Wow us if she keeps up this level of practice.
On September 22 2020 14:38 TelecoM wrote: I feel like foreigners in their peak potential, Draco was the best in his prime and had the most potential, but who's to say.... I have a feeling Scarlett will continue to Wow us if she keeps up this level of practice.
do you have any additional info on her current level of practice? if you could assign a value on her current level of practice relative to other top korean amateurs who are trying to qualify for ASL, what would it be??
On September 20 2020 19:11 martoto088 wrote: One serious question. I was thinking of that for a long time, it is like a dream for me. I was fortunate enough to make a lot of money from poker, then bitcoins and Tesla shares. I am willing to create an "ultimate" BW tournament with a prize pool lets say $100 000. I would love to have both top koreans and maybe 1 forigner on each group. I have no expirience at all with tournaments, i know nobody at the scene, etc. Do you guys think it is possible to do something like that? Any advice? Do you think it is possible to get back at least 20-30% from ads and other stuff?
If someone with expirience and connections is willing to help me, let's disscuss it to see if it is even possible. I can offer only money.
Man you are crazy!
Make sure to make a 10% of prize pool foreigner only tournament.
EPT
IEM Season XII - World Championship
