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On October 18 2018 20:47 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 20:39 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On October 18 2018 20:28 Garrl wrote:@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs. If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place. I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.). sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here.
That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section.
But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different.
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On October 18 2018 20:58 Incomplete..ReV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 20:47 Garrl wrote:On October 18 2018 20:39 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On October 18 2018 20:28 Garrl wrote:@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs. If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place. I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.). sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here. That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section. But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different.
regardless of intent, it's still spec work (except worse because normally with spec work you know you'll get paid if it's used) - https://www.nospec.com/ - and it's unethical.
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On October 18 2018 21:18 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 20:58 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On October 18 2018 20:47 Garrl wrote:On October 18 2018 20:39 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On October 18 2018 20:28 Garrl wrote:@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs. If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place. I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.). sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here. That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section. But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different. regardless of intent, it's still spec work (except worse because normally with spec work you know you'll get paid if it's used) - https://www.nospec.com/ - and it's unethical.
Would it also be spec work if they asked for people to help set up scenes and such to host an event? Or have someone organize online tournaments and sit hours upon hours answering questions, making brackets and such?
They give no promise of compensation. They clearly state there's only a chance, and that the main reason to apply here is if you love what you do, and the game, enough to spend all that time doing it simply for the passion of it. There's no competition with the promise of a reward - only an application to be recruited. Not hired. No money.
When TL hires, this is what it looks like; https://www.teamliquidpro.com/careers
I feel you're stretching it a bit too far. I mean, yes, there's money - but how much do you get set aside to a game as small as BW, when they have 13/14 other squads to pay? And how will there ever be an interest to spend more money here, if there's no content being produced and consumed? Paid work like that is simply unrealistic in a community such as ours. But look at f.ex. BSL - ZZZero and his team have done a LOT of free work organizing it. With their free work and their content, Blizzard shows up and starts throwing money at them. That's how something like this works. I assume you know it, but you see how it's necessary for TL to do it this way for BW coverage, don't you?
Lastly, I apologize if this is derailing the thread. This will be my last post regarding the matter for the sake of the thread (not giving the siltent treatment or anything, so I'll read whatever you reply and such, even if I don't respond anymore) =)
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United States4883 Posts
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 18 2018 21:54 Incomplete..ReV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 21:18 Garrl wrote:On October 18 2018 20:58 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On October 18 2018 20:47 Garrl wrote:On October 18 2018 20:39 Incomplete..ReV wrote:On October 18 2018 20:28 Garrl wrote:@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs. If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place. I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.). sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here. That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section. But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different. regardless of intent, it's still spec work (except worse because normally with spec work you know you'll get paid if it's used) - https://www.nospec.com/ - and it's unethical. Would it also be spec work if they asked for people to help set up scenes and such to host an event? Or have someone organize online tournaments and sit hours upon hours answering questions, making brackets and such? They give no promise of compensation. They clearly state there's only a chance, and that the main reason to apply here is if you love what you do, and the game, enough to spend all that time doing it simply for the passion of it. There's no competition with the promise of a reward - only an application to be recruited. Not hired. No money. When TL hires, this is what it looks like; https://www.teamliquidpro.com/careersI feel you're stretching it a bit too far. I mean, yes, there's money - but how much do you get set aside to a game as small as BW, when they have 13/14 other squads to pay? And how will there ever be an interest to spend more money here, if there's no content being produced and consumed? Payed work like that is simply unrealistic in a community such as ours. But look at f.ex. BSL - ZZZero and his team have done a LOT of free work organizing it. With their free work and their content, Blizzard shows up and starts throwing money at them. That's how something like this works. I assume you know it, but you see how it's necessary for TL to do it this way for BW coverage, don't you? Lastly, I apologize if this is derailing the thread. This will be my last post regarding the matter for the sake of the thread (not giving the siltent treatment or anything, so I'll read whatever you reply and such, even if I don't respond anymore) =)
No, it's fine. Post as much as you like. This topic comes up every time there is any kind of recruitment post on this site, and it's always the same points. No one seems to consider the state of the site, or the fact that the BW community is so small that unless people work hard at helping out, there'll be no coverage or anything. It's why contributors are valued highly on the site, because these guys are putting in their time to keep the game going on their passion. If you aren't passionate enough, or don't believe this is for you since you believe it devalues your work, that's fine.
After all, this is meant to be a fun experience, being at the forefront of BW coverage and all. You can also quit any time you like, so long as you let us know, because imagine quitting right before something major. There is a chance for compensation, because you need to be staffed before we can even discuss that stuff. In other words, you have to show that you are capable, and help out before you get that nice icon. Ironically, this sounds like some kind of brutal process, but it's pretty straight forward and most folks know if they want to continue or not after they join.
I saw someone mentioning Chill getting paid and such. I'm not really sure on the details there, sorry!
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United States4883 Posts
On October 18 2018 20:42 kaboombaby wrote:
Wasn't this a paid staff responsibility in the days of old? Surprising to see tl going the "free exposure" route on a call for creatives. Really confused about this, especially after listening to all the Chill/staff interviews way back hearing him describe getting paid for a lot of work along these lines.
It still is. Just means there's a trial period and the actual compensation isn't enough to live on. But if you're someone who's new to the industry or just want to spend some time working on a hobby (and making some pocket cash), it's a good opportunity. Several good writers from this site like stuchiu and Fionn have gone on to do great things. Several others like monk and Heyoka found amazing opportunities in the industry through the contacts they made doing work for TL.
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Omg yes TL BW renaissance finally!
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i'll make a submission soon
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51447 Posts
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On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 26 2018 02:26 Dknight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted. As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/RKq50HF.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/M4vffQC.jpg)
Coin$piracy
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 26 2018 02:40 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 02:26 Dknight wrote:On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted. As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed. That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
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Germany25657 Posts
Hey if Gecko wants to shitpost he can suffer the consequences 
But seriously, the budgets for the pro team and our community sites are entirely seperate. It is no secret that Team Liquid the pro team is doing very well, but TLnet the website has a way, way smaller budget.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 26 2018 13:24 Dknight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 02:40 BigFan wrote:On October 26 2018 02:26 Dknight wrote:On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted. As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed. That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions. That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
Yes, you are making a big assumption here with that link. Anyone who carefully reads this post of yours should come to the realization that the community site and the proteam are two separate entities, and no, the community site does not have $200 million to spare, nor did it raise $26 million for the company this year. I mean, seriously, are you reading what you write?
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
As for the ban, KBB pulled it on his own, because you know, he is the guy who has run the moderation team, and kept the site damn clean for 5+ years so I'd hope he knows what he's doing. But seeing as you want more details, sure, the post was terrible because we ban for image memes on here. It's a rule that been around for a long time, and I'm pretty sure that Gecko is aware of it. In other words, no, this doesn't work against my argument.
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On October 26 2018 14:30 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 13:24 Dknight wrote:On October 26 2018 02:40 BigFan wrote:On October 26 2018 02:26 Dknight wrote:On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted. As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed. That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions. That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument. Yes, you are making a big assumption here with that link. Anyone who carefully reads this post of yours should come to the realization that the community site and the proteam are two separate entities, and no, the community site does not have $200 million to spare, nor did it raise $26 million for the company this year. I mean, seriously, are you reading what you write? On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier. As for the ban, KBB pulled it on his own, because you know, he is the guy who has run the moderation team, and kept the site damn clean for 5+ years so I'd hope he knows what he's doing. But seeing as you want more details, sure, the post was terrible because we ban for image memes on here. It's a rule that been around for a long time, and I'm pretty sure that Gecko is aware of it. In other words, no, this doesn't work against my argument.
I don't mean to interject but then the question is why does an organization with such funds not devote some of it to the BW community/forums? I'm well aware that you probably can't answer this question in detail, but I think that this is underlying frustration for some of the users who have responded here (not me, for the record - I can empathize, though).
I mean, Chillindude has a sponsorship from TL, so like...
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On October 26 2018 14:30 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 13:24 Dknight wrote:On October 26 2018 02:40 BigFan wrote:On October 26 2018 02:26 Dknight wrote:On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted. As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed. That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions. That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument. On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL.
However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce.
Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job.
I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent.
However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
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On October 26 2018 16:04 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 14:30 BigFan wrote:On October 26 2018 13:24 Dknight wrote:On October 26 2018 02:40 BigFan wrote:On October 26 2018 02:26 Dknight wrote:On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted. As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed. That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions. That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument. On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier. I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL. However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job. I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent. However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
I think the message they are sending is that if there are no volunteers, there will be no BW section or at least no BW content. So it's either volunteers or nothing.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 26 2018 16:04 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 14:30 BigFan wrote:On October 26 2018 13:24 Dknight wrote:On October 26 2018 02:40 BigFan wrote:On October 26 2018 02:26 Dknight wrote:On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote:
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted. As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed. That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions. That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument. On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier. I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL. However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job. I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent. However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
I think we're missing the point here. This isn't a job, it's a hobby. That you still get paid for.
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