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On September 22 2018 13:41 Bakuryu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 13:25 Lazare1969 wrote:On September 22 2018 13:11 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really. in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command. how is it "abuse" to allow people to use and type /draw once in game? unlike a pause it would not interrupt the game at all. it will just give a yellow message similar to when someone changes the latency. the other player can either ignore it or type /draw to agree to a draw. you make a new account at 1500mmr, you type /draw in the beginning of the game, you begin to demolish you opponent, he uses /draw to not lose the game, mmr does not get changed since neither player won (unless you want to count draws into mmr), repeat. if you count draws into mmr, you can "draw" yourself up the ranks, and people will make challenges on how far you can go only playing draws, until you get stream sniped where somebody kills himself and you get a win, ending the challenge
by that same logic people can abuse MMR just by quitting the game early before they win
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On September 22 2018 13:47 Lazare1969 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 13:41 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 13:25 Lazare1969 wrote:On September 22 2018 13:11 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really. in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command. how is it "abuse" to allow people to use and type /draw once in game? unlike a pause it would not interrupt the game at all. it will just give a yellow message similar to when someone changes the latency. the other player can either ignore it or type /draw to agree to a draw. you make a new account at 1500mmr, you type /draw in the beginning of the game, you begin to demolish you opponent, he uses /draw to not lose the game, mmr does not get changed since neither player won (unless you want to count draws into mmr), repeat. if you count draws into mmr, you can "draw" yourself up the ranks, and people will make challenges on how far you can go only playing draws, until you get stream sniped where somebody kills himself and you get a win, ending the challenge by that same logic people can abuse MMR just by quitting the game early before they win
but then your opponent gets points.
with draw, nobody gets points (or only few points), making it up to twice as effective at stopping your opponents mmr progression.
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if your prediction that there would be this massive epidemic of skilled players doing their best to sit at 1500 mmr really does become true, it could easily be fixed by disallowing the initiation of a /draw for new accounts and limit the number of times any account can initiate a /draw request to once every 24 hours (or longer if needed)
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i was just trying to show possible everyday consequences of implementing a system which is for the "once in a year or even less" situation.
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There is no Draw, it is the one that leave the game last that wins. I recall that player who posted one of his game vs a kor on blue storm, 8 hours long until his opponent decided to quit. Psychological warfare is a very important thing in bw. There is no draw ok...
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On September 22 2018 16:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
There is no Draw.
o_O
 DRaW
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On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play....
If there were multiple draws in televised games, clearly your statistics are way off
maybe one in a thousand is closer to correct
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On September 22 2018 13:41 Bakuryu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 13:25 Lazare1969 wrote:On September 22 2018 13:11 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really. in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command. how is it "abuse" to allow people to use and type /draw once in game? unlike a pause it would not interrupt the game at all. it will just give a yellow message similar to when someone changes the latency. the other player can either ignore it or type /draw to agree to a draw. you make a new account at 1500mmr, you type /draw in the beginning of the game, you begin to demolish you opponent, he uses /draw to not lose the game, mmr does not get changed since neither player won (unless you want to count draws into mmr), repeat. if you count draws into mmr, you can "draw" yourself up the ranks, and people will make challenges on how far you can go only playing draws, until you get stream sniped where somebody kills himself and you get a win, ending the challenge
So this assumes that you can actually beat your opponent in the first place and are just wasting your points to grief him in a very weird way? And this is assuming that the hypothetical /draw command works by simply having it typed by each player at any point in the game, which would be a bloody stupid implementation to begin with.
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On September 22 2018 16:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
There is no Draw, it is the one that leave the game last that wins. I recall that player who posted one of his game vs a kor on blue storm, 8 hours long until his opponent decided to quit. Psychological warfare is a very important thing in bw. There is no draw ok...
Look at North and South korea. There is no official peace, the countries are still at war. No draw. Get it? No draw.
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On September 22 2018 18:27 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 13:41 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 13:25 Lazare1969 wrote:On September 22 2018 13:11 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really. in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command. how is it "abuse" to allow people to use and type /draw once in game? unlike a pause it would not interrupt the game at all. it will just give a yellow message similar to when someone changes the latency. the other player can either ignore it or type /draw to agree to a draw. you make a new account at 1500mmr, you type /draw in the beginning of the game, you begin to demolish you opponent, he uses /draw to not lose the game, mmr does not get changed since neither player won (unless you want to count draws into mmr), repeat. if you count draws into mmr, you can "draw" yourself up the ranks, and people will make challenges on how far you can go only playing draws, until you get stream sniped where somebody kills himself and you get a win, ending the challenge So this assumes that you can actually beat your opponent in the first place and are just wasting your points to grief him in a very weird way? And this is assuming that the hypothetical /draw command works by simply having it typed by each player at any point in the game, which would be a bloody stupid implementation to begin with.
any implementation of it will be stupid imo.
yes i assumed that there are people strong enough to beat people at 1500mmr while making fun of them.
but there shouldnt be lots of them that actually do that.
like i already posted, draws never were a problem in tournaments.
they also never were a problem on iccup, because you reported the game and points were refunded.
but you cant do that in remastered, so now that 1 in 1000 games (yes you are correct iopq) is apparently a problem now.
a problem so big, we are talking about adding HARDCODED rules into the game.
so we are going to satify the few people upset with the 20 year old win/lose conditions (which to those people occurs in about 0,1% of their games), by changing the game for everybody to a win/lose/draw condition?
are you kidding me?
whats next?
do people want to add a "reveal enemy buildings when without main building" timer as the next QoL thing? because who wants to spend time searching for buildings? except you will completely change the interactions in base races and with hidden expos.
this is not starcraft 2, nor chess.
if you really want to add a /draw command to be able to report the game as "draw game" (refund points), the players should not be able to conclude any information about enemy mining/buildings/whatever and therefore the requirement to using that can only be none or a fixed amount of time (e.g. after 10 minutes).
but unless you have somebody checking those games or have complex requirements, people could abuse it (e.g. ladder qualification for tournament)
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If people wanted to they could just take wins at 1500, and then alternately leave the game in a won scenario to give the points back, to remain at 1500 indefinitely. I don't see people "griefing" by playing below their skill level, and not taking points for their own wins, as a big problem either way.
It also doesn't change anything about actual gameplay, in the vast majority of games. The only thing it really changes is that people will occasionally be playing for a draw instead of playing for a win-by-default. I.e. any scenario in which players would traditionally sit in front of their keyboard passively for hours on end waiting for their opponent to leave the game so that they get the full points, for a game in which they are incapable of fulfilling the actual win condition, with draw conditions the game would end in a more reasonable fashion.
I personally didn't suggest draw-by-agreement for Brood War because I thought it would be more controversial, but it's not that big of a deal TBH.
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I definitely agree that hard coded rules are going to be very likely to cause more trouble than help because of the low incidence drawn games have in the first place.
It should also be noted that even the already existing hard-coded rule (leave within first 2 (?) game minutes) can be and is frequently abused…
With a draw-on-mutual-agreement-rule on the other hand people could still grief each other by simply refusing to agree to a request.
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konadora
Singapore49700 Posts
On September 17 2018 04:23 zobz wrote:It happens in base trade scenarios and mine-out scenarios, both of which are very rare in themselves. Still, it happens. HongTube - a recent example, in a high level practice game.
holy shit lol
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I'm enjoying this search for a solution that itself is searching for a problem.
In seriousness, this seems like overkill. Any solution is likely to introduce unanticipated and undesirable side effects. Cure is likely worse than the disease.
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On September 22 2018 13:41 Bakuryu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 13:25 Lazare1969 wrote:On September 22 2018 13:11 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really. in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command. how is it "abuse" to allow people to use and type /draw once in game? unlike a pause it would not interrupt the game at all. it will just give a yellow message similar to when someone changes the latency. the other player can either ignore it or type /draw to agree to a draw. you make a new account at 1500mmr, you type /draw in the beginning of the game, you begin to demolish you opponent, he uses /draw to not lose the game, mmr does not get changed since neither player won (unless you want to count draws into mmr), repeat. if you count draws into mmr, you can "draw" yourself up the ranks, and people will make challenges on how far you can go only playing draws, until you get stream sniped where somebody kills himself and you get a win, ending the challenge
you seems to have no experience about how 1v1 elo works (mmr is similar).
If you gain point by drawing it means you opponent will loose the same amount of point.
Aka, drawing will be a normal way to gain some points some times.
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I don't understand these convoluted arguments. If nothing is built, mined, or attacked for X amount of time, say 5 minutes or less . The ability to offer a draw should be available. If a player really wants to go AFK for 20 hours then more power to them. The result of a draw is no mmr change. The game essentially didnt happen. This isn't something can be abused by new players, and will improve the quality of life for a few games. The ONLY reasonable argument to this is perhaps the work required by blizzard. I dont really know how hard this would be and dont think it should be a priority (cough 2v2 cough). But If its something they could bang out in the next patch, go ahead.
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Players allying without anyone surrendering or being eliminated ends to a draw or am I mistaken?
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On September 23 2018 10:21 Gorgonoth wrote:
I don't understand these convoluted arguments. If nothing is built, mined, or attacked for X amount of time, say 5 minutes or less . The ability to offer a draw should be available. If a player really wants to go AFK for 20 hours then more power to them. The result of a draw is no mmr change. The game essentially didnt happen. This isn't something can be abused by new players, and will improve the quality of life for a few games. The ONLY reasonable argument to this is perhaps the work required by blizzard. I dont really know how hard this would be and dont think it should be a priority (cough 2v2 cough). But If its something they could bang out in the next patch, go ahead.
Thank you.
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I have no problem leaving a game and taking a loss once every 10 years because there is a draw scenario. I have probably played over 5000 games and never had a draw scenario occur. This seems like a non issue. It seems so silly to think that is in my opinion.
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WCS
