|
It's always bothered me that StarCraft has no official rules for when a game is officially drawn or tied. There are two caveats to this.
1) Maybe there are official rules about drawing that are very clear in Korea and I'm just not aware of them.
2) This doesn't come up very often. Games that get into the territory where things become extremely tedious and draw rules might be necessary are rare. Professional games that are actually ruled as drawn, though there have been a couple, are even rarer.
It just seems like a fundamental flaw with the game, if only a small one, and since this game is so good otherwise I wish someone would fix it. To explain the flaw, sometimes a game reaches what is effectively a stalemate. This is when it is literally impossible for either player to eliminate the other's last building. When this happens, or comes close to happening, I certainly get very excited because it is such a strange occurrence in StarCraft, and I'm sure lots of other people get excited too. But after 10 minutes or so of the game stretching on with absolutely nothing happening, it becomes a problem, not just for the spectators, but even for the players themselves. Sometimes the game is technically winnable, but just very difficult for both players to make progress without taking a disproportionate risk. Other times both players may feel confident that they can still win, but are overindulgent in taking their time towards activating their plan.
Some of you may be aware that this is something that comes up much more frequently in the game of chess. In chess, there is a long, time-honoured tradition of long boring games that go nowhere, and they have a number of very clear and simple rules to help players, and tournament organizers navigate those waters. In chess the conditions for a draw are simple:
1) If one player offers a draw, at any time during the game, and the other player accepts.
2) If it is logically impossible for either player to win, because they lack the necessary in-game resources to meet the win conditions. In the context of chess, the necessary resources for winning are very well understood by chess theorists, so this rule is completely explicit and can be applied by simple reference to a manual, if necessary.
3) If at any point in time, play has continued for a certain period of time without certain official markers of definite progress being met. In the case of chess, a game is ruled a draw after 50 moves have gone by without either player moving a pawn, or capturing a piece. This helps tremendously with ruling over the gray area where the game simply becomes very boring, while still technically being winnable, without the rules needing to be arbitrary in order to deal with it.
My suggestion is that StarCraft should implement a slightly modified version of at least some of these rules, so that when this does happen, it isn't as confusing or lame or torturous to everybody involved. It is also just as important, in my opinion, if for no reason other than a matter of principle, that the process by which a game is ruled a draw is completely non-arbitrary. The whims of sports referees are often defended by fans for their ability to inject a "human" element into the ruling of the game. This results in games like soccer having a very different time-honoured tradition, namely riots. In my opinion it is better that things are as objective as possible, which usually means being explicitly set in stone as much as possible.
So here's my rough idea. Suggestions and refinements to this idea, as well as a wholesale rejection of all of my stated premises, are welcome. A game of StarCraft should be automatically ruled a draw:
1) If both players have buildings which are inaccessible to each other's standing army, and no possible access to resources which would allow them to make an army capable of destroying each others' buildings.
2) [edited] If at any time during the game, 3 minutes go by without either player producing or damaging any unit or building, a draw will result, assuming that both players have either the capability to win, or the capability to defend themselves. If only one player can win, and the other can neither win nor defend himself, then the player who can win will be awarded the win automatically.
|
what now
in 15 years of playing i havent been able to produce a draw that wasnt on a non-standard map
|
It happens in base trade scenarios and mine-out scenarios, both of which are very rare in themselves. Still, it happens.
HongTube - a recent example, in a high level practice game.
|
On September 17 2018 04:19 GeckoXp wrote:
what now
in 15 years of playing i havent been able to produce a draw that wasnt on a non-standard map
I've had it happen maybe once or twice in 15 years of playing 
It DOES happen now and then though. my friend had a game a while back where he left his computer on for a day while he slept and went to work and the guy hadn't left by the time he returned lol.
|
United States8252 Posts
7 minutes is a long time. What was it in SC2? And even that was ridiculously long for a draw timer.
The rule should be simple, if progress cannot be made in a game, the game is drawn. It can either be because there are too much static defense for what few units you have left to kill them, or because players have armies but are unwilling to progress the game state. (FlaSh vs Jangbi Blue Storm being the obvious one).
In a situation of Stork vs GGPlay on Andromeda, where GGPlay holed himself up on the 12 island and Stork had to fly an arbiter in with recall, if Stork felt like the risk was too much and refused to attempt the recall, then the game would end in a draw, since GGPlay had no means of every leaving the island and winning the game. Therefore, Stork would be the one to need to progress the game state and manage to recall his army into the island to eliminate GGPlay.
|
easiest fix would be to implement a button with the options to draw. If both players click it, the game ends. It should be displayed only when necessary though. For instance if no player is mining minerals for 5+ minutes for a start.
On September 17 2018 04:19 GeckoXp wrote:
what now
in 15 years of playing i havent been able to produce a draw that wasnt on a non-standard map
i had a draw recently on Tau cross! PvP, i played 9/9 offgate, he proxied DT's in resposne. Funny as it sounds i couldn't kill his last pylons against dt's and he couldn't kill my last two cannons i managed to hide somewhere when he killed my base. My opp solved the problem by disconnecting, but i lost the points ))=
|
I don't think hard-coded rules are required for such a rare scenario. Having an menu option where one player suggests a draw to the other might be good though. Limit how often it can be used during a game though, just like pauses, to discourage griefing.
On September 17 2018 04:26 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2018 04:19 GeckoXp wrote:
what now
in 15 years of playing i havent been able to produce a draw that wasnt on a non-standard map I've had it happen maybe once or twice in 15 years of playing It DOES happen now and then though. my friend had a game a while back where he left his computer on for a day while he slept and went to work and the guy hadn't left by the time he returned lol.
The other guy probably did the same.
+ Show Spoiler [and here's how it went on] +Both their computers now perpetually occupied by an undead game of BroodWar, they each had to buy a new one to go on with their lives. To be save vs. unexpected power outages they also each had to hook their PCs up to an emergency backup generator. The rooms with the computers, generators and generous supplies of diesel fuel are now sealed off and entirely dedicated to keeping that game up and running. And if their CPUs haven't melted or Blizzard force-cancelled it for a server update the game is still running to this very day and will continue for all eternity.
The End
Theoretically Protoss can build a full control group of Archons from a left-over 1200 minerals bank and one mining depleted Assimilator, it just takes forever. A single Tank, Guardian or Battlecruiser can kill any number of buildings. One single Dark Archon can mind control an entire opponent's army, just to name a few examples of possible late-game crazyness. It may become boring to watch if no player is actually willing to give up, but the possibility of it actually being able to happen is in itself exciting. I don't think there is an actual issue here.
And you are actually missing some draw rules from chess, like stalemates (player to move has no legal move available) and perpetual checks (this just to underline how even a strictly logical, turn-based game like chess actually needs quite a lot and intricate rules to properly define what makes a draw).
|
I've had a few draws which is also known as just going AFK for 5+ hours and waiting for your opponent to win when you're convinced you have the upper hand.
Most of the time there aren't stalemates though because people do a lot of timings / all ins / people don't have the patience and will try to win instead of wait out a potentially endless stalemate, which has happened to me many times lol
|
The easiest solution is just if neither side destroyed a building or mined minerals for the last 5 minutes, the game ends in a draw.
If only one side mined minerals, but again neither side destroyed a building, the game ends in a draw in 15 minutes. Prevents a person from stalling with a 200 mineral patch by mining it every few minutes.
|
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play....
|
On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play....
I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really.
|
Has this ever happened in a KESPA/televised game? I'm pretty sure I've never actually seen this happen in a pro level game. It must have happened at some point though.
|
^Some are already dropped on the thread.
Pro BW had draws.
|
Bisutopia16797 Posts
|
i think they should add a /draw command where both players have to type it to end the game in a draw
/draw
Player1 has requested a draw.
/draw
Draw! [End Mission]
i don't think it should be in the main menu because draws are such a rare occurrence and you don't want to clutter the menu
|
Draws are much more likely on full island maps like sparkle.Hopefully we have seen the last of those.
|
On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really.
because you are changing the 20 year old win/lose condition of the game by adding in a draw condition.
in any tournament, you just regame.
and if you spend hours in one of the rare ladder stalemates, because the result is so important to you, then imo you clearly have too much time.
the comparision to chess doesnt work, just look at how many drawn games there are compared to bw. draws are so easy/frequent, that sometimes high level players actively go towards them from the beginning (lots of early piece exchanges)
in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command.
|
I think we had one once at wcg and then it s up to the referee. I think the rulebook said to call a pause and go talk to the players. Propose a rematch. If a player refuses (that didnt happen) the resume game and wait.
Having an automatic setup has drawbacks because ppl will try and force draw as we see in sc2. The draw request command by one player is interesting though but perhaps enable it after a set of condition has been detected (no fight after x mins) to prevent abuse.
Edit: agree with bakuryu. I dont think it ever was a problem in tournaments. Also, as you mention in the op, if you dont have the function it forces a move if there is even a remote chance as opposed to just say "alright i ll aim for the draw"
A kespa/asl ref opinion would be interesting too
|
On September 22 2018 13:11 Bakuryu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really. in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command.
how is it "abuse" to allow people to use and type /draw once in game?
unlike a pause it would not interrupt the game at all. it will just give a yellow message similar to when someone changes the latency. the other player can either ignore it or type /draw to agree to a draw.
|
On September 22 2018 13:25 Lazare1969 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2018 13:11 Bakuryu wrote:On September 22 2018 11:10 Gorgonoth wrote:On September 22 2018 09:22 Bakuryu wrote:
im 100% against having rules that automatically default into a draw.
and having features implemented for that 1 game in 100000+ games you will play.... I'm curious why you think this. It seems like if you can have a quality of life change, like a draw counter for actually drawn games, what is the issue with that? Sure it affects a minescule amount of the games you will play, but it dosent change the experience for the other 99.99 percent of games. The one aspect I could see people getting upset about, is the whole " Oh blizzard spent time on this when they should of fixed "X", "Y" and "Z". But if the process of implementing a stalemate clock like sc2 has is simple and quick for blizz to do, why not? seems like a no-brainer to me. Right now stalemates are just a test of patience really. in terms of adding a /draw command, people already abuse the pauses, dont need them to abuse another command. how is it "abuse" to allow people to use and type /draw once in game? unlike a pause it would not interrupt the game at all. it will just give a yellow message similar to when someone changes the latency. the other player can either ignore it or type /draw to agree to a draw.
you make a new account at 1500mmr, you type /draw in the beginning of the game, you begin to demolish you opponent, he uses /draw to not lose the game, mmr does not get changed since neither player won (unless you want to count draws into mmr), repeat.
if you count draws into mmr, you can "draw" yourself up the ranks, and people will make challenges on how far you can go only playing draws, until you get stream sniped where somebody kills himself and you get a win, ending the challenge
|
|
|
|
|
|
WCS
