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On December 02 2017 19:37 fizzgoof wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 19:15 Freakling wrote:There are some things that do not translate well between different tilesets: - ramps and bridges vary in width and cliffs and doodad sizes are different. As a result wall-ins are different or require additional terrain editing and pathfinding is not the same in some areas.
- The original FS has lots of Jungle trees around the middle that provide cover for units. This cannot be reproduced at all in most tilesets and available alternatives, such as dirt trees, are still rather different.
On the other hand, there are some things that can be significantly improved: - You can easily reproduce unbuildable areas exactly, using custom terrain types, such as bridge plating, for some tilesets.
- It looks like you just copied your ramps from some old maps, having no regard for proper width balance and terrain levels. As a result they are a mess as far as proper high ground advantage (vision, miss chance) is concerned, unit numbers to block them are not the same for reverse ramps on some tilesets and your reversed ash ramps even have forced vortex bugs on them, due to isolated low ground edge tiles.
- You also copy-pasted very sloppily. Some of the bridges lack proper transitions or even have unwalkable spots on them.
- Maps have exactly the same unbuildable tiles on the high ground as in original FS. The walls should be the same, right? Wall-in tightness is a matter of walkability, not buildability, and walkability is a minitile property and varies a lot between tilesets.
- Yes, adding terrain that provides miss chance is impossible without making the maps very ugly. So I just skipped it. I don't know why you think it would make the maps ugly. You can definitely come close to the original on Desert and Ice tileset (if you are willing to accept snow terrain) and just use trees for Badlands, but for other tilesets there simply aren't any cover providing doodads/tiles.
- Reproducing unbuildable areas is easy, I know but it would make things very ugly too. Is it such a big deal, anyway? It's mostly a bid deal in PvT where slow pushes with Turrets and Depot walls are common. Again, I don't know why you think it would have to be ugly.
- All my ramps were copied from old [Ramps] map on broodwarmaps.net. I assumed they're OK, maybe I was wrong... BWMN is a free and ope site, any one can upload anything, there is no quality control. Personally I would not touch most of those template maps with a ten foot pole. What you should do is use the tile/minitile flag overlays in ScmDraft to check terrain properties.
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Hmmm freakling, I'm obviously not nearly as adept at it as you are...
Wall-in tightness is a matter of walkability, not buildability, and walkability is a minitile property and varies a lot between tilesets.
Wait, you mean that terrain between the cliff and building's edge differs in tightness depending on tilesets? Cause everywhere else, you can fit the same buildings, so the walkability between them will also be the same...
I don't know why you think it would make the maps ugly. You can definitely come close to the original on Desert and Ice tileset (if you are willing to accept snow terrain) and just use trees for Badlands, but for other tilesets there simply aren't any cover providing doodads/tiles.
But I would have to import tree doodads from other tilesets, wouldn't I? And I don't even know how to do that without copying the obviously very different terrain that's underneath them - do I copy the sprites only?
It's mostly a bid deal in PvT where slow pushes with Turrets and Depot walls are common. Again, I don't know why you think it would have to be ugly.
Original FS has most of the terrain in the middle buildable anyway. Also, there's no unwalkable grass in Ice World, so it I can't imagine that map not getting ugly with some bridge tiles in the middle or such.
BWMN is a free and ope site, any one can upload anything, there is no quality control. Personally I would not touch most of those template maps with a ten foot pole. What you should do is use the tile/minitile flag overlays in ScmDraft to check terrain properties.
Are there any maps with state-of-art ramps I could copy-paste from? Frankly, I can't be bothered with tweaking what I've got endlessly. It's been already a time-consuming task, as it is.
Edit: Unbuildable tiles on the bridges are now fixed.
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On December 02 2017 20:10 fizzgoof wrote:Hmmm freakling, I'm obviously not nearly as adept at it as you are... Show nested quote +Wall-in tightness is a matter of walkability, not buildability, and walkability is a minitile property and varies a lot between tilesets. Wait, you mean that terrain between the cliff and building's edge differs in tightness depending on tilesets? Cause everywhere else, you can fit the same buildings, so the walkability between them will also be the same... Yes. You can see this with Microtile Overlay/Impassable. Different walkability can also change pathfinding zoning.
Show nested quote +I don't know why you think it would make the maps ugly. You can definitely come close to the original on Desert and Ice tileset (if you are willing to accept snow terrain) and just use trees for Badlands, but for other tilesets there simply aren't any cover providing doodads/tiles. But I would have to import tree doodads from other tilesets, wouldn't I? And I don't even know how to do that without copying the obviously very different terrain that's underneath them - do I copy the sprites only?
Show nested quote +It's mostly a bid deal in PvT where slow pushes with Turrets and Depot walls are common. Again, I don't know why you think it would have to be ugly. Original FS has most of the terrain in the middle buildable anyway. Also, there's no unwalkable grass in Ice World, so it I can't imagine that map not getting ugly with some bridge tiles in the middle or such.
Show nested quote +BWMN is a free and ope site, any one can upload anything, there is no quality control. Personally I would not touch most of those template maps with a ten foot pole. What you should do is use the tile/minitile flag overlays in ScmDraft to check terrain properties. Are there any maps with state-of-art ramps I could copy-paste from? Frankly, I can't be bothered with tweaking what I've got endlessly. It's been already a time-consuming task, as it is.
I also compiled some brush files a while ago.
These are some much improved Space High Platform ramps.
This is a very extensive palette for custom Desert Dirt ramps which are a lot closer to "standard" ramps than the standard Dirt ramp doodads.
These are some improved standard Dirt ramps for Jungle.
This map has a good selection of bug free Ash ramps.
Jukado's Badlands maps, like this one, should have good Badlands Dirt ramps.
Custom Dirt ramps for twilight are generally good, not much one could screw up with them.
Ice terrain is just very hard to work with in general…
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quo very quo. I look forward to final version, snow maps makes the graphics beautiful and warping buildings shiny.
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Great addition to my collection, I got all version of LT now I get FS. LancerX must be proud.
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cool^^ in ladder map pool rotation, sounds good^^
such as two "common" maps out of 5 for the pool, in the slot of "common" FS and a very few others, and rotate the version of it when it comes up..? would be pretty cool^^ or FS always as only common map, but why
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Wow, I wish we had this back in 2010. Would have liked to see a bit more color in the middle though.
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EPT
